Social The Pichu Social & General Discussion Thread

[kingPiano]

some people catch on to the matchup quickly though, especially falcons who notice that you're still in hitstun by the time they can down throw again or knee, and marths who remember that pichu's hurtbox extends a lot with agility like pikachu's with quick attack.

Yea true. There are a few people like the Mew2Kings and the Mang0s that have a high Melee IQ. They catch on within a single match and adapt immediately. Thankfully most don't and they are just trying to copy all the combos and gimmicks that they see the top players doing. My favorite is when Marths try and throw out the rogue up-Bs on ground as a finisher like M2K does and Ken before him. Gotta punish them hard (well as hard as Pichu can anyways).

But for the smart ones have always tried to play as if I have multiple personality disorder. If I see a great player that is reading me like a book, I change playstyles and rotate through 2-3 "attitudes" and aggro levels. I think it's important to not cement a certain style, then people know exactly what to expect if they see you again in circuit.

 

[Comet7]

what i meant when i specifically mentioned falcon and marth was that it's pretty easy to see that pichu's weight can be abused given how falcon has a huge frame advantage over pichu and the falcon player should be able to see that they can just freestyle on pichu into a kill if they want to. with marth, it would be more like an educated guess and a lot of pichus (or at least i do) tend to go diagonally up and then diagonally down from agility to sweetspot the ledge, so it shouldn't be anything too advanced.

also marth's fair to up b is amazing <3. i haven't been able to practice it much on anything other than cpus but the knockback on up b is ridiculous and it's easier to land than the ken combo.

 

[kingPiano]

what i meant when i specifically mentioned falcon and marth was that it's pretty easy to see that pichu's weight can be abused given how falcon has a huge frame advantage over pichu and the falcon player should be able to see that they can just freestyle on pichu into a kill if they want to. with marth, it would be more like an educated guess and a lot of pichus (or at least i do) tend to go diagonally up and then diagonally down from agility to sweetspot the ledge, so it shouldn't be anything too advanced.

also marth's fair to up b is amazing <3. i haven't been able to practice it much on anything other than cpus but the knockback on up b is ridiculous and it's easier to land than the ken combo.

Yea well that's why the side b is so important, it brings you back into a zone where you can have more freedom with how you angle agility. I remember DeRF mentioned in his guide vid that he thought side b was kinda useless for recovering (maybe he's changed his mind since then). I think it's crucial when you play someone who knows all the angles of agility, makes you more unpredictable when you reduce the horizontal distance from ledge (also mixing it up with wall jumps when you're low really can be good for recovery confusion)

 

[Comet7]

well i was thinking of when pichu is far enough that using side b doesn't accomplish anything. yeah the only time for using side b for recovery is when your opponents can't punish you during the cooldown (imagine barely living with really good di on dreamland). otherwise it the distance isn't really worth it imo and self damage, as overrated as it is, is still important since pichu can take a fair amount of damage (enough to put you at kill percent since pichu weight) off stage if there isn't a good place to recover on stage. being able to go high and make it to the top platform of battlefield and dreamland is nice to escape this, but now pichu has to get down, which can be really hard sometimes...

and god i love the marth matchup when i'm not getting edgeguarded... dash dance nair for life.

 

[kingPiano]

well i was thinking of when pichu is far enough that using side b doesn't accomplish anything. yeah the only time for using side b for recovery is when your opponents can't punish you during the cooldown (imagine barely living with really good di on dreamland). otherwise it the distance isn't really worth it imo and self damage, as overrated as it is, is still important since pichu can take a fair amount of damage (enough to put you at kill percent since pichu weight) off stage if there isn't a good place to recover on stage. being able to go high and make it to the top platform of battlefield and dreamland is nice to escape this, but now pichu has to get down, which can be really hard sometimes...

Well yea it does 1%, I think it's worth it no matter how far away you are even if it brings you to being almost equal to or above the ledge cause then you can zip to the other side or only have to do a single agility (when you're opponent thinks you'll do 2). That's also 3% less damage if you don't agility twice, so actually you're saving 2% by utilizing side b when you can.

 

[the muted smasher]

Side-b is a great way to throw away good recovery options if You aren't near the top of the blast line.

You sink so much that You can't can't have the option to come in high or 2nd jump jolt to try to cover You.

Luigi tho is someone You truely don't attack to approach. You'll never win if You do unless he is bad.

Backwards grab is useful for chain throwing fox and nearly everytime falco or yoshi cross up Your shield how their body's land gives You the grab.

But that said I use backwards grabs as nearly everyone

 

[kingPiano]

and god i love the marth matchup when i'm not getting edgeguarded... dash dance nair for life.

Yea but any smart Marth will just hang back and jab or spam out SHFFL aerials and tilts and stop every single nair.

And if you played Mew2King he'd probably have some fun with you a counter every single SH nair since he has insane reaction time.

I dread fighting a good Marth cause it forces me to basically have to find a grab opening, or approaching from the air but having to airdoge their nair/fair > land > uair/utilt when they aren't expecting it to start a nair string. flying in with SH nairs vs Marth's sword you never win against any respectable Marth. Only thing I hate worse is a good IC player, a bad IC player is fun to gimp though.

another really annoying thing you'll see if you play a REALLY good Marth player is that they can easily grab you out of a SH nair. The hit box on Marth's grab is so insane and it's the perfect height to intercept a SH attack from Pichu.

 

[the muted smasher]

Marth is very doable nair better and vs ics nair even better and let nana run into f smash other wise she'll sdi out every time.

No marth can't react to nair with jab if You're doing it right. There are 2 main spacings for nair. 1st is straight forward you're outside the tip of d-tilt/grab and go for the cross up.

2nd is where You aim to land low and hit his feet and be safe on shield/cc.

Pichu is at the peak of his sh at frame 18 human reaction is normally 10 frames so he sees the jump and prepares so the jab frame 4-7 ends 26.

Now I don't even think about nairing till I'm at the peak and the pull back animation is a lot like puff pulling back in how Your body twists. And I can ff and land on frame 25 I believe and now I'm in the spot where I can cross up marth and he can't react and he'll have to aimlessly attack or shield.

Good marth's can make it feel hopeless but that's anyone vs marth

 

[kingPiano]

Marth is very doable nair better and vs ics nair even better and let nana run into f smash other wise she'll sdi out every time.

No marth can't react to nair with jab if You're doing it right. There are 2 main spacings for nair. 1st is straight forward you're outside the tip of d-tilt/grab and go for the cross up.

2nd is where You aim to land low and hit his feet and be safe on shield/cc.

Pichu is at the peak of his sh at frame 18 human reaction is normally 10 frames so he sees the jump and prepares so the jab frame 4-7 ends 26.

Now I don't even think about nairing till I'm at the peak and the pull back animation is a lot like puff pulling back in how Your body twists. And I can ff and land on frame 25 I believe and now I'm in the spot where I can cross up marth and he can't react and he'll have to aimlessly attack or shield.

Good marth's can make it feel hopeless but that's anyone vs marth

Again....

Have you ever played a really good competitive Marth?

1. They don't just sit there awaiting your nair, they are constantly wavedashing and SHFFL nairing and fairing > tilts (it's a wall of sweeping disjointed hit boxes 3x the size of pichu). It's like trying to run through the rain without getting wet.

2. They have above average - exceptional reaction time (it's not johnny down the street's reaction time). They can get a tipped wave-dash Fsmash out before you even make it to them with a SH nair. And it's not about counting frames, that is futile when you start playing a human in a tournament setting. Anyone that has played a pichu for an hour or two will already know exactly what you are gonna try and do, it's a limited tool set unfortunately as far as approaches go. Marth can out grab you and out range you, and can brutally edgeguard you with the massive sword hitboxes.

And you can't really cross up a Marth, when he swings his sword there are hit boxes on his body as well (large ones the size of pichu on his shoulders and torso). His Nair is especially broken IMO: great knock back, hits twice, generous hitboxes on sword and body, barely any lag.

 

[Comet7]

uh yeah that's why the matchup is bad for pichu, but it's completely doable compared to stuff like spacies. of course he's going to wall you out, but his attacks have enough endlag to be able to get in with a nair or whatever else that might work depending on a bunch of variables that i won't go into. for nair once you get in, you have some frame advantage and he doesn't have anything that breaks combos absurdly quick so you can basically harass him on the ground since he's forced to pick a bad option and then you can usually get him up in the air and blah blah blah... it is really hard to deal with aerials walls though, so you're right about that.

the neutral of the mu is pretty much the same as pika's except we don't have cc down tilt and can rely on our nair a bit more, but not having something like cc down tilt really hurts.

 

[the muted smasher]

Marth's moves at longest last 3(jab only) frames most only 1-2.

Marth's best option is not to attack because the odds that he'll be baited are stacked against him most the time. He normally trys to push the threat of his range onto You to steal space.

But if pichu can't get in on marth with he great mix-up options I wonder how fox does it with his nair that is without the pull back option. I mean we aren't luigi or zedla who legit should always get walled out

 

[kingPiano]

uh yeah that's why the matchup is bad for pichu, but it's completely doable compared to stuff like spacies. of course he's going to wall you out, but his attacks have enough endlag to be able to get in with a nair or whatever else that might work depending on a bunch of variables that i won't go into. for nair once you get in, you have some frame advantage and he doesn't have anything that breaks combos absurdly quick so you can basically harass him on the ground since he's forced to pick a bad option and then you can usually get him up in the air and blah blah blah... it is really hard to deal with aerials walls though, so you're right about that.

the neutral of the mu is pretty much the same as pika's except we don't have cc down tilt and can rely on our nair a bit more, but not having something like cc down tilt really hurts.

Well you really only have a 1 frame advantage from Pichu's Nair to his Fair....and really it's more like Marth has a 5 frame advantage on Pichu since that's what it takes to get past his sword (not to mention 1 frame is pretty much negligible to humans). I do agree that once you're near him or on top of him and you've started one nair, it can pretty much be over for a Marth if you time and read techs right and just barrage like a kamikaze.

Anyways Marth in general as a character makes no sense because he has this big heavy sword....and yet his attacks come out pretty much as faster if not faster than Pichu. And he has an almost perfect SH that allows him to auto cancel most aerials easily (only 4 frames land lag). If I was a designer on this game I would have obviously thought "Hmmm swords are heavy and they give this huge disjointed advantage.....he really should be slow and lack fast recovery like Ganondorf". The way that Marth floats and can do like 5 aerials with a heavy *** steel sword in one jump? Garbage....


Personally I find spacies much easier to deal with since the hitbox ranges are much more even. Perhaps I encounter easier spacies in my area though, and more difficult Marths. Thankfully there aren't any ICs really.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Marth's aerials in neutral are actually really fraudulent. You can just shield then punish because they have no shield stun and it's like -800 or some ****.
If you can read when he's going to jump and fair you can just run under and shield and then grab him.

What makes the matchup terrifying is when marth has space to wd back ->fsmash, dd grab, or dtilt.
Pichu has to be incredibly patient and mostly gets little pokes to gain stage control because marth is a low tier once he's pressed up in a corner.

I want to talk more about some things I've been thinking about with that mu recently.

Personally, I'm a big fan of FoD and Battlefield in the matchup these days.
FoD is a bit scary because of the sides and the low platforms if you get caught on them since it's a free tipper. The ceiling is also a little high for my preference, but I like how limited marth's movement is on the stage, and pichu actually still gets a lot from the low platforms and how low the bottom is, which allows you to go pretty deep with dairs through marth's upB and stuff at lower percents.I feel like it's one of the harder stages to learn against marth, but I like it a lot.
I'm not a fan of dreamland against smart marths because of the amount of space he has, but it also gives you a lot more space if you don't want to get smothered. You live a little longer, and since pichu get's most kills off gimps, it doesn't hurt your kill power too much (although it still does a little), but marth with a lot of ground room is never fun. It's cool that he can't fsmash you for recovering to a platform though.

As any other character, I don't mind yoshi's against marth, and I think it's a super overrated stage against him, but as Pichu it's really scary because Pichu just isn't as good on yoshi's and dying at 20% actually comes into play way more. I like to think my Pichu isn't the worst on yoshi's, but that mu is pretty brutal if you make any mistakes. The bottom is also super high up which can be a problem, but unlike battlefield, you have walls beneath you that marth can tech on to recover. In general, I try to avoid it.

I used to be a big fan of stadium, but I really dislike not having a top platform to retreat to. It's also got a lot of space and close sides which can be a problem. Low ceiling is nice though.

I have some more stuff to say too, not just regarding stages, but that matchup is absolutely garbage and one of the only matchups I really don't enjoy as Pichu.

 

[kingPiano]

Marth's aerials in neutral are actually really fraudulent. You can just shield then punish because they have no shield stun and it's like -800 or some ****.
If you can read when he's going to jump and fair you can just run under and shield and then grab him.

What makes the matchup terrifying is when marth has space to wd back ->fsmash, dd grab, or dtilt.
Pichu has to be incredibly patient and mostly gets little pokes to gain stage control because marth is a low tier once he's pressed up in a corner.

I want to talk more about some things I've been thinking about with that mu recently.

Personally, I'm a big fan of FoD and Battlefield in the matchup these days.
FoD is a bit scary because of the sides and the low platforms if you get caught on them since it's a free tipper. The ceiling is also a little high for my preference, but I like how limited marth's movement is on the stage, and pichu actually still gets a lot from the low platforms and how low the bottom is, which allows you to go pretty deep with dairs through marth's upB and stuff at lower percents.I feel like it's one of the harder stages to learn against marth, but I like it a lot.
I'm not a fan of dreamland against smart marths because of the amount of space he has, but it also gives you a lot more space if you don't want to get smothered. You live a little longer, and since pichu get's most kills off gimps, it doesn't hurt your kill power too much (although it still does a little), but marth with a lot of ground room is never fun. It's cool that he can't fsmash you for recovering to a platform though.

As any other character, I don't mind yoshi's against marth, and I think it's a super overrated stage against him, but as Pichu it's really scary because Pichu just isn't as good on yoshi's and dying at 20% actually comes into play way more. I like to think my Pichu isn't the worst on yoshi's, but that mu is pretty brutal if you make any mistakes. The bottom is also super high up which can be a problem, but unlike battlefield, you have walls beneath you that marth can tech on to recover. In general, I try to avoid it.

I used to be a big fan of stadium, but I really dislike not having a top platform to retreat to. It's also got a lot of space and close sides which can be a problem. Low ceiling is nice though.

I have some more stuff to say too, not just regarding stages, but that matchup is absolutely garbage and one of the only matchups I really don't enjoy as Pichu.

I really like FoD, Marth might have uTilts under but you've got uTilt also and you can fSmash from below. And I'm biased cause I love wall jumping at the very bottom and double agility to the ledge, extra style point if you time it perfectly to ledge hog My least favorite is Yoshi's Island, it's just terrible for Pichu.

I wish Pokemon Stadium was customizable, if it didn't transform I'd love it. Seriously the rock transformation....what is this? Am I all of a sudden in a Worms 2 game?

Basically whenever an opponent picks Marth, Pichu should automatically get to start the match with a Cloud Strife Buster sword in his mouth. Then it'd be fair.

 

[the muted smasher]

I love fd vs marth we can up-b around his upairs most the time or bait him to jump after us and thunder into a combo.

Just marth is sooo easy to pick off when he's in the air I really enjoy the free nairs when he lands or trys to stop being juggled.

I'm a nut but I've other than a few niche cases I've never seen marth as having the edge in the neutral game vs anyone so much as can You space better than the marth? Unless marth sneaks f-smash in his combos we hit each other about as hard and if they space better or I'm on ys then it's over xD

 

[DerfMidWest]

Marth players suck. That's the only reason you get away with dumb **** like upBing around his uairs and hitting him out of the air.
Too many marth players are focused on being the aggressor rather than just reacting to things and abusing the fact that marth can just have a hitbox anywhere he wants.
I hate FD against marth, I would much rather have platforms because challenging marth directly should never work.

also utilting under marth is actually kind of risky, because utilt isn't thaaat fast, and marth can bait it out and dair you, which puts you above him. You have to be very careful with your positioning.

 

[kingPiano]

I agree with just about 0 of m2k's opinions about anything. That's all I'll say on that subject.
Also m2k's zelda is good, but it ain't VaNz (I don't even need to mention Cosmo)

Imma carry this over from the combo thread, we were starting to clog up GR's quest for vids

Well I like that he put Pichu over Zelda, even though I think Zelda's toe kinda outclasses Pichu's whole toolset by a little bit.

Anyways his Zelda is damn impressive, he took out Mang0's Falcon I believe as well as 7 of his other stocks in the ironman with her alone. Cosmo is good (and he's an awesome person), but he basically plays like anyone would with Zelda after 1-2 months of practice and it hasn't evolved much it seems. He's a great player, but really my opinion on Zelda is that anyone can play her at an intermediate level and place well if they have 2 hands. I have not seen VaNz's Zelda, only TheLake's his is basically a lesser version of Cosmo's Zelda.

edit: okay I just watched some vids of VaNz, that's an impressive Zelda (very technical and aggressive). As good if not better than M2K's, and better than Cosmo's.

I think it would be awesome to see VaNz and M2K do Zelda ditto, I have a feeling Jason might barely win (if VaNz is still active).

 

[DerfMidWest]

VaNz plays a bit. He doesn't care about the game as much anymore though.
Also don't be fooled by how simplistic cosmo's zelda looks. He's without a doubt the best Zelda that ever existed.
I think VaNz is the best zelda in the world right now (since cosmo is retired).
TheLake is also very solid, I wouldn't sleep on him either.

 

[the muted smasher]

Marth in the air in any kind of way is a free hit for pichu : / just really free.

Lake is great but he refuses to learn the chain throw vs ffers and if he had some more technical knowledge like magus has dropped in the zedla threads I think he would step up a lot. Comso is so good it's kind of a good thing he quit. I hate to admit it but zedla is bad for the meta because run away tactics like falco on bf are just a mindless simple way to pick her apart. And we'd see more of that and why she's near the bottom of m2k list. She's good enough to do great and get results till we quit playing by the unspoken rules of melee.

Also mango sandbags really bad.

Real talk tho I hate pichu vs zedla so much I prefer sheik. Like all I can do is dd camp really. There aren't openings because she can get You on cross-ups fairly well and she kind of aims to trade. Idk fighting zedla is really boring unless You're also a slow paced floaty

 

[kingPiano]

Marth in the air in any kind of way is a free hit for pichu : / just really free.

Lake is great but he refuses to learn the chain throw vs ffers and if he had some more technical knowledge like magus has dropped in the zedla threads I think he would step up a lot. Comso is so good it's kind of a good thing he quit. I hate to admit it but zedla is bad for the meta because run away tactics like falco on bf are just a mindless simple way to pick her apart. And we'd see more of that and why she's near the bottom of m2k list. She's good enough to do great and get results till we quit playing by the unspoken rules of melee.

Also mango sandbags really bad.

Real talk tho I hate pichu vs zedla so much I prefer sheik. Like all I can do is dd camp really. There aren't openings because she can get You on cross-ups fairly well and she kind of aims to trade. Idk fighting zedla is really boring unless You're also a slow paced floaty

wut?

Zelda is probably the easiest match-up for Pichu besides Kirby and Bowser, she's a slow tall walking hurtbox that can never land a grab or shadow toe on lil 'ol Flying Pichu.

I like playing as Zelda for match-ups, cause she's so easy and requires almost no skill or tech. I will use her if I'm playing a Marth, Marth don't like my toes.

 

[the muted smasher]

In low tier events I always request dl64 be banned and ps to be a neutral. But zedla pichu is this the worst mu for pichu in low tier events. I have a decent bit of experience vs lake and stro who we both disagreed with on ics vs link and then pichu vs link. In short we were both wrong.

Seriously zedla cc/shield game is really really obnoxious. Like I don't think there is a good answer other than wild reads and dd camp her into nothingness

 

[kingPiano]

In low tier events I always request dl64 be banned and ps to be a neutral. But zedla pichu is this the worst mu for pichu in low tier events. I have a decent bit of experience vs lake and stro who we both disagreed with on ics vs link and then pichu vs link. In short we were both wrong.

Seriously zedla cc/shield game is really really obnoxious. Like I don't think there is a good answer other than wild reads and dd camp her into nothingness

What are you talking about? When did we ever talk about ICs vs Link or Pichu vs Link? Are you talking to DeRF or have you reached a new level of delusion.

every single one of your moves as Pichu is faster then hers (her jab is 11-12, and her grab is 12) the only moves that are even close are fair/bair and Dsmash and those she will never hit you with cause you're tiny and fast and you'll grab her and barrage her.

 

[Comet7]

That's right until you realize that kaicks can beat nair along with cc down smash. The mu is unexpectedly hard.

 

[kingPiano]

That's right until you realize that kaicks can beat nair along with cc down smash. The mu is unexpectedly hard.

Well I already mentioned those two as the only attacks that are fast enough to get a Pichu. But as I've already also said as a Pichu you should never get hit by them ever, you're too small and fast and she's way too slow and predictable. The only safe zone for a Zelda player is when you're within toe range, basically only like 1% of the entire stage space. Once you're in her face she's done and when you far away dash dancing circles around her she can't keep up (her dash speed is slower than Pichu's walk speed lol). Her get up is terrible so you can tech chase her with nairs pretty much forever. Once she' off stage it's a guaranteed kill, fire off a jolt to pressure and then just wait to see when her Farore's Wind lands and dash up-smash or re-grab.

Zelda is my favorite match up in a competitive environment (don't see too many though): most of her moves come out slower than Ganondorf's (like her jab), her grab is useless (it's slow and actually a bit higher than Marth's so it can miss often), her floatiness makes her susceptible to juggling and fast up-smash/F-smash kills, and her recovery is a joke.

 

[the muted smasher]

She has the fastest d-smash in the game and her legs are Inv. During, that's she jab in respect of what a jab is for.

And she can kick very low bair oos has even more reach than fair cross-ups can be really dangerous and she can safely slap move on Your shield and beat it down lack of a grab isn't as bad as You'd think.

Like her f-smash is safe on shield. Also juggling her is easy but You seriously under rate her air speed to space those kicks. It's a really rough match-up if You try to approach

Her floatiness generally makes her immune to thunder combos and f-smash.

 

[Comet7]

Our nairs are predictable, so I guess people should never get hit by them. No. They are good and can and will hit us. Muted pretty much nailed it. F smash almost never works if people wiggle the control stick. Our getup is also worse.

 

[kingPiano]

She has the fastest d-smash in the game and her legs are Inv. During, that's she jab in respect of what a jab is for.

And she can kick very low bair oos has even more reach than fair cross-ups can be really dangerous and she can safely slap move on Your shield and beat it down lack of a grab isn't as bad as You'd think.

Like her f-smash is safe on shield. Also juggling her is easy but You seriously under rate her air speed to space those kicks. It's a really rough match-up if You try to approach

Her floatiness generally makes her immune to thunder combos and f-smash.

Yes I know all this stuff, she's got some generous hitboxes on a lot of her moves. But they are all just too slow and, and the ones that aren't I find extremely easy to avoid. Her main tool for edgeguarding - D Smash - is useless against Pichu, and her floatiness is not a negative it's a positive in that it makes her really easy to predict in the air and combo. Her Up and F smashes can be easily SDI'ed out of.

You don't really approach a Zelda, that exactly what they want. That's the only way they can win is if you come to them. And don't ever use Thunder or F-Smash against her, c'mon you're just asking for a lightning kick to the face if you're dumb enough to throw those laggy moves out.

And yes her grab is horrendous, if you get grabbed by Zelda it's probably best just to quit.

Our nairs are predictable, so I guess people should never get hit by them. No. They are good and can and will hit us. Muted pretty much nailed it. F smash almost never works if people wiggle the control stick. Our getup is also worse.

Your point doesn't make sense because you can dash dance and fling out a nair about 10x faster than zelda can come at you with a lightning kick. Pichu's SH aerials aren't predictable at all because of the speed and the spamibality of them. Now if you use them like a noob and just come running full charge right at them everytime, then yes they are. But that's on you, it's because you're predictable.

Again F-smash is a very dumb move to use, even edgeguarding since it can be easily SDI'ed out of. And if Zelda SDIs out, it's a guaranteed fair or bair to your face. If you time the last hitbox correctly it's good, but there are much better safer options.

 

[kingPiano]

Here I'll try and be more constructive with what I say.

Seriously try more dash dance to up smashes as a mix up, they will expect a flying nair. THh up smash connects more often they you'd think in those situations (it seems like while dashing and up smashing the hitboxes distort or get a bit bigger, I know this happens with grab hitboxes as you pivot out of dash dance).

Also when they are behind you, WD back > Up Smash is freaking amazing and catches people offguard VERY often since they don't know or forget that the back Pichu's head has huge range on the Up Smash (it extends longer backwrds than the F-tilt does forward as it starts up).

 

[Comet7]

frame 4 down smash is fast. her down smash is really good, so don't underestimate it. no, my point does make sense because both zelda and pichu's games are obvious (pichu is dd nair, zelda has to throw out kicks). the way you're talking about zelda seems somewhat hypocritical from the view of a pichu user. pichu doesn't have many moves that can be used a lot, but the frames for stuff generally looks good, ilke zelda. the only reason they get away with winning at all is because they have a few moves that a REALLY GOOD. pichu's is nair with decent mobility, and zelda's are down smash and her kicks. pichu's predictability is just that you can wait until we decide to approach with nair and throw out a hitbox that beats it and then we're in trouble. if zelda wasn't floaty, she wouldn't be able to double bair, which is amazing.

then don't say f smash is a good way to get a kill.

wavedash back is 10 frames, up smash comes out frame 11 or 10, so 20-21 frames if done frame perfect. pichu's wavedash isn't very good, and up smash extends our hurtbox with the hitbox, so i'm not seeing what's so good about it compared to nair unless we want to stay grounded. honestly i'd rather just dash up smash or dash cancel up tilt.

 

[the muted smasher]

You were the one who suggested f smash in the 1st place... then You restate what we said??????


Zedla has an edge when not approach simplely because if we nair right we get just the 12% most of the time and we need at least 11-13 of those till she's really to get up-smashed we die after about 50% from a kick. The punishment game is way in her court and at wallin f us out. We can dd camp but she will take her sweet time

 

[the muted smasher]

Oh tested f-tilt vs grab, we duck standing grab at half way range have get the edge and other wise we win cause that how grabs work

 

[Comet7]

i guess something nice in this mu would be that if we nair zelda's shield it doesn't even need to be fresh or that late to be able to shieldgrab her before she can fair/grab us, so i guess we could get into mindgames for if she would decide to roll. at this point, i'm speculating since i've only fought one good zelda and it was just friendlies.

 

[kingPiano]

frame 4 down smash is fast. her down smash is really good, so don't underestimate it. no, my point does make sense because both zelda and pichu's games are obvious (pichu is dd nair, zelda has to throw out kicks). the way you're talking about zelda seems somewhat hypocritical from the view of a pichu user. pichu doesn't have many moves that can be used a lot, but the frames for stuff generally looks good, ilke zelda. the only reason they get away with winning at all is because they have a few moves that a REALLY GOOD. pichu's is nair with decent mobility, and zelda's are down smash and her kicks. pichu's predictability is just that you can wait until we decide to approach with nair and throw out a hitbox that beats it and then we're in trouble. if zelda wasn't floaty, she wouldn't be able to double bair, which is amazing.

then don't say f smash is a good way to get a kill.

F-smash is not a good way to get a kill unless you can perfectly time it on a ledge, if you can time the last hit box it will KO floaty Zelda at as low as 60%. In neutral or on the ledge if you don't time it right and you are against someone who doesn't suck they will always be able to punish the cooldown. I did not mean it could be spammed reliably as a kill move on ground.

And you guys are both giving D-smash way too much credit, yeah it's fast and yea it has a few invincibility frames. But you know that's what's going to come out when you are right on top of her so just block and Up Smash or block then throw or spot dodge etc.

Zelda's lack of speed on ground and air is what puts her so low on the tier list and in this matchup. It's a serious factor, don't down play that (M2K even puts her 6 spots below Pichu on his Tier List). I've never lost to a Zelda yet and I've played some that have beat good Ganondorfs and Marths. How many Zeldas have you guys actually played, i'm shocked you have so much trouble with her.....I agree with M2K on this one because Pichu is less predictable given his speed and has more tools and ways to approach then Zelda (not a ton more, but still more)


And Comet...c'mon man Fox's WD Upsmash takes just as long (actually it takes longer if the full WD is used) and it's the main killing tool of a LOT of Foxes. It's about catching people off guard after conditioning them, and they will almost never expect a WD back Up Smash or it to even connect. Used as a mix up of course along with the barrage of nairs and grabs and jolting.

 

[kingPiano]

Oh tested f-tilt vs grab, we duck standing grab at half way range have get the edge and other wise we win cause that how grabs work

No, again. Grabs have priority over all attacks as long as they touch a hurt box and on F-tilt they will since the last 15 frames are standing up (in regards to Marth grabbing you). On the U tilt I was discussing earlier you have a much smaller profile and less vertical height through more of the entire animation (also it's short in lag and animation length)

 

[Comet7]

No, again. Grabs have priority over all attacks as long as they touch a hurt box and on F-tilt they will since the last 15 frames are standing up (in regards to Marth grabbing you). On the U tilt I was discussing earlier you have a much smaller profile and less vertical height through more of the entire animation (also it's short in lag and animation length)

zelda's grab comes out at frame 12 while pichu's f tilt comes out at frame 5

fox's up smash comes out faster and his wavedash is longer

as pichu we're going to be on top of zelda a lot so down smash is very good against us both as a cc and in general. the only thing that isn't too good about it is that it doesn't have exceptional knockback.

 

[kingPiano]

zelda's grab comes out at frame 12 while pichu's f tilt comes out at frame 5

He's referring to Marth's grab vs F-tilt, a conversation we had a LONG time ago. Muted stated that it would clank, he was wrong. Grabs don't clank attacks. You agreeing with anything he says puts you on that same level.

Assume I know all the frame data (I have it all on a spreadsheet and the GIFs in Flash files broken down by frame)
In the future don't quote frame data as if I don't already know it. You keep doing it, and it's like hearing the Sky is blue for the 53rd time.

 

[Comet7]

He's referring to Marth's grab vs F-tilt, a conversation we had a LONG time ago. Muted stated that it would clank, he was wrong. You agreeing with anything he says puts you on that same level.

Assume I know all the frame data (I have it all on a spreadsheet and the GIFs in Flash files broken down by frame)
In the future don't quote frame data as if I don't already know it.

it would do the same for marth since f tilt will come out before the grab box.

it's apparent that you don't know it since you said that f tilt can't beat out zelda's grab.

 

[kingPiano]

it would do the same for marth since f tilt will come out before the grab box.

it's apparent that you don't know it since you said that f tilt can't beat out zelda's grab.

When did I say that? Never. Jesus you're as delirious as muted.

 

[Comet7]

No, again. Grabs have priority over all attacks as long as they touch a hurt box and on F-tilt they will since the last 15 frames are standing up (in regards to Marth grabbing you). On the U tilt I was discussing earlier you have a much smaller profile and less vertical height through more of the entire animation (also it's short in lag and animation length)

found it. oh, you were missing the point in the first place. stop being so worried about the cool down on f tilt, we're just talking about its application as a quick poke. you can always just buffer roll out as a panic move if you think the marth will try to grab since most people don't have a reaction time quick enough to grab pichu from the cooldown, especially when you take the startup of a grab into account.

 

[kingPiano]

found it. oh, you were missing the point in the first place. stop being so worried about the cool down on f tilt, we're just talking about its application as a quick poke. you can always just buffer roll out as a panic move if you think the marth will try to grab since most people don't have a reaction time quick enough to grab pichu from the cooldown, especially when you take the startup of a grab into account.

Again Comet read carefully

Marth..


MARTH



marth




marrrrttthhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Well if f-tilts long end lag is irrelevant then I guess Fox's longer wavedash (which is the same speed) and faster up smash are also irrelevant (by the way it's only 2 frames, AKA 1/30th of a second AKA you can't even perceive it if a 7 and 9 frame charge were played back to back) See how this works? you can't just make stuff up and then ignore your own points.

When you play more Zeldas let's talk again.

Also go try this as an experiment, go into training and pick pichu and Fox. Now do their wavedashes and try their up smashes. You'll notice Fox's WD is pretty much the same speed as Pichu's (it is longer since his traction is a bit lower of course) and it will seem like Fox's Up smash actually comes out slower than Pichu's (even though the frame data says different by 2 frames). It will also feel like Fox's Up Smash takes longer to cool down.

f-tilt to u-tilt is 6 frames difference in cooldown is actually noticable to a competitve player looking for an opening. Good players can react that fast when it's whiffed.