The perfect IC player- how feasable is it?

[Gishnak]

I haven't read too much through this forum, so I apologize for questions that could be answered elsewhere, but I am curious about this now, and don't currently have time to read the topics :D. (midterm in 10 minutes)

Anyway, many are worried about ICs chaingrab or ICs being banned, etc etc. What I am curious about is... If a player was incredibly, incredibly dedicated, and practiced chaingrabbing to a disgusting extent against every character, and knew the best grab style in every combination.... Could this player be beaten?

Essentially, how difficult is it to perfect ICs chain grab? If it's incredibly difficult, and people don't think it will be feasible in tournament matches to perform 0%->CG->KO, then great news! I'm just worried that in a couple of months, players will be so good at this (seemingly difficult) technique, that all other fighting styles and characters will pale in comparison.

I'm the first to admit that I think very very little should be banned. But if all people have to do is grab you once, and with their mad skillz and finger dexterity, you are doomed. That *must* be imbalanced...

 

[Niko_K]

If a player was perfect as you are describing one grab would equal a loss of stock. It really isn't that difficult to master. You just need to practice the timing a bunch just like any other technique.

 

[KosukeKGA]

This is why I want Melee back.

 

[goodoldganon]

I haven't tried this new chaingrab with the ICs yet so I can't say how tough it is to master, but I feel if people were able to master Fox's Waveshining Infinites, Wobbling, and other stuff like Pillaring, this technique will also be mastered.

I don't want to ban any character, but I just get this iffy feeling the ICs will get banned. But that's assuming Brawl has a metagame in a year or two.

 

[pyrnight]

If there was a "perfect" player using IC's, it would be no less cheap than playing Fox in melee. Fox in melee had an infinate against nearly every character, and if the shine is used frame-perfect it will beat anything... but of course the human mind and body is not that consistant (even robot boy m2k) so this will never happen.

 

[Atlantis]

There is no reason for a person who takes the time to master a technique to be punished and wasted his or her time. You even said so yourself, the massive perfection, practice and finger dexterity...is not something to be looked down upon. If someone can grab once and kill because they practiced hard enough...then so be it. That's like saying someone who practiced so much at air dodging, side stepping and rolling that they can NEVER be hit...should they ban dodging...i don't think so. The CG and alt throws can be escaped...no one is perfect, we're human.

 

[Corner-Trap]

I KO around 40% of the time I land a grab, the other 60% of the time I land I grab I usually do 80+ damage. If I had the time to put in more practice I would be more consistent. Alternating throws will eventually be mastered by the better IC players, but it's still much harder to pull off consistently than wobbling was.

EDIT:

On a side note, there is so much more necessary to being good with the IC's than being good at CG's.

 

[slacker!]

This is why I want Melee back.

So you'd rather have a game where ICs have an easier time moving around and getting grabs, and an easier infinite to do, rather than a game where approach is more difficult and infinites actually take skill?

In Melee all you had to do was wavedash out of shield, grab, and go crazy on A button. There goes your stock.

 

[Dan_X]

So you'd rather have a game where ICs have an easier time moving around and getting grabs, and an easier infinite to do, rather than a game where approach is more difficult and infinites actually take skill?

In Melee all you had to do was wavedash out of shield, grab, and go crazy on A button. There goes your stock.

Good point.

In my opinion, sure people will get good at this technique, but it's still so difficult to pull off. At least, it is for me. I've spent a few hours of practice on the chain-grabs, and in training mode I pull them off effectively. Against a really person however, well that's another story. I'm usually to tense to pull of the combos effectively. Many of the combos take very delicate meticulous movement, and timing. There is absolutely always chance for error, as we are human. So I don't think you will ever see someone who has mastered every chaingrab and can perfectly execute each chaingrab on every character... It just won't happen.

To be honest, chain-grabs aside, half the battle for the Ice Climbers is spacing and the approach. Landing a grab takes skill...

 

[ICYDp]

Hey im new to the boards. but i gotta say chain grabbing is great and all but it still does make up for are lack of approaches, and a good side step will punish every time. I am by no means good and even i got a chain grab off in a tourny but at the end my lack of spacing still lost it for me. a good climbers player has got to be well practiced in every aspect of the game.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Hey im new to the boards. but i gotta say chain grabbing is great and all but it still does make up for are lack of approaches, and a good side step will punish every time. I am by no means good and even i got a chain grab off in a tourny but at the end my lack of spacing still lost it for me. a good climbers player has got to be well practiced in every aspect of the game.

God ****it I'm getting real tired of people saying the IC's approach suck. Yes, they lost WD'ing but they also gained a lot of new approaching options. Approaching in general has gotten worse in Brawl, but the IC's approach is above average when compared to the rest of the characters.

 

[ICYDp]

Hey man im not trying to make anyone mad hear, im not claiming to be an iceclimbers authority i was just stating my current opinion, im sure that in time ill figure out so approaches that work for me.

 

[KRDsonic]

Ice Climbers can be very hard to grab with against someone who actually dodges and expects it. I've only battled two people like this so far, and getting off a grab on them with IC is a miracle. Yoshi however, has no problem grabbing people. I've never battled anyone who's dodged even half of my grabs when I'm Yoshi, but with Ice Climbers...

 

[jdub03]

I dont find chain grabs to be as difficult as people make it out to be. I ve only practiced for about 15 minutes doing the hylian CG and I can do it pretty consistent. Give people about a year and it will be very easy to do. There will never be a perfect IC player because mistakes can still happen.

 

[Kyu Puff]

So you'd rather have a game where ICs have an easier time moving around and getting grabs, and an easier infinite to do, rather than a game where approach is more difficult and infinites actually take skill?

In Melee all you had to do was wavedash out of shield, grab, and go crazy on A button. There goes your stock.

A joke?

Melee was 5000x deeper. Landing a grab was actually difficult, where in Brawl all you have to do is run around and put your shield up. Spacing actually took timing and skill in Melee, where in Brawl, characters are twice as large and move twice as slow, making the technical game effortless. While Wobbling is certainly easier to do than Alternate Grabbing, the other player can struggle out before ~35%, and Alternate Grabbing can be done from 0%. Not to forget, we even have an inescapable CG to 25% that is incredibly easy to do and works on any character.

Please, don't even compare Melee skill to Brawl skill. In Melee, the Ice Climbers were actually a technical, difficult-to-pick-up character. Alternate Grabbing is about as extreme as "Brawl tech skill" gets.

 

[Speedsk8er]

The perfect IC player wouldn't even need to grab you. They'd be able to expand their minds to the point where they can desynch and mindgame you with both Nana AND Popo. 0-death desynch combos would be commonplace and we'd only work the grab in when we didn't feel like thinking much. IC players would be banned from tourneys. I'm trying to get to that point... but it'll never happen, sadly.

 

[Sundown]

So you'd rather have a game where ICs have an easier time moving around and getting grabs, and an easier infinite to do, rather than a game where approach is more difficult and infinites actually take skill?

In Melee all you had to do was wavedash out of shield, grab, and go crazy on A button. There goes your stock.

Brawl = a game where infinites ACTUALLY TAKE SKILL??????

And your comparing it to melee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????? OMFG are you sick or something man??? Wavedash out of shield, grab, and go crazy on A button???

OMFG were you on drugs when you wrote that bull****? Im not even saying melee is better than brawl, or brawl better than melee, or any of that nonsense, but seriously, when someone talks abou technical skill... and then says Brawl has MORE... then that some1 should be corrected.

Again, im not saying a game is better than the other one, im saying that you were on fuking drugs when you posted that Brawls infinites take more skill than melees, thats all.

 

[Speedsk8er]

Brawl = a game where infinites ACTUALLY TAKE SKILL??????

And your comparing it to melee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????? OMFG are you sick or something man??? Wavedash out of shield, grab, and go crazy on A button???

OMFG were you on drugs when you wrote that bull****? Im not even saying melee is better than brawl, or brawl better than melee, or any of that nonsense, but seriously, when someone talks abou technical skill... and then says Brawl has MORE... then that some1 should be corrected.

Again, im not saying a game is better than the other one, im saying that you were on fuking drugs when you posted that Brawls infinites take more skill than melees, thats all.

wobbling is much easier than alt grab. way to overreact

 

[da K.I.D.]

not to be rude here, but are they any non-grab related AT's that are related to the ic's

 

[slacker!]

Brawl = a game where infinites ACTUALLY TAKE SKILL??????

And your comparing it to melee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????? OMFG are you sick or something man??? Wavedash out of shield, grab, and go crazy on A button???

OMFG were you on drugs when you wrote that bull****? Im not even saying melee is better than brawl, or brawl better than melee, or any of that nonsense, but seriously, when someone talks abou technical skill... and then says Brawl has MORE... then that some1 should be corrected.

Again, im not saying a game is better than the other one, im saying that you were on fuking drugs when you posted that Brawls infinites take more skill than melees, thats all.

If you even READ my post, you'd figure out that I was talking about ICE CLIMBERS' INFINITE. Not Fox's or whatever other character, you dumb****.

My point was wobbling > Alt. Throws in terms of ease. Stupid ****, like speedsk8r said, way to over react. ****ing baby, go cry more.

 

[Kyu Puff]

If you even READ my post, you'd figure out that I was talking about ICE CLIMBERS' INFINITE. Not Fox's or whatever other character, you dumb****.

My point was wobbling > Alt. Throws in terms of ease. Stupid ****, like speedsk8r said, way to over react. ****ing baby, go cry more.

I don't mean to edge you on, but don't you think that you're being a bit hypocritical?

Anyways, your post implied that Melee took less skill in general. Getting a grab in Brawl is in fact much much easier, and due to the decrease in speed and flexibility, there's a lot less depth in approaching. Melee Ice Climbers are more difficult to play than you make out; in fact, few people actually rely on Wobbling to win.

I think we're getting out of context, though. You interpreted Kosuke's post to mean that alt. grabbing is cheap, I interpreted it to mean that he wishes that Brawl was more technical. I can't figure out if your post was simply pointing out the brokenness of Melee, or commenting on the amount of skill it took to pilot the Ice Climbers.

 

[FmAiGkGeO]

Blah blah blah. Stick to the issues. I am not sure where I stand on this. I can KO from 0% with chain throws. But I am not perfect and to tend to mess up occasionally.I haven't found a way to DI out of the foward throw chains. But then again I was practicing with a friend and I don't know if he was paying attention or trying to DI.

It's not really that hard. From the viewpoint of someone whose never gotten in the top 8 of a tourney, I can do it easily. Not without fail, but if I grab you I am going to stack at least 40-120% damage on you depending on what percent I grab you at, and assuming I don't mess up.

I find it too cheap to use in tournament. If I beat a decent player using chain grabs, I wouldn't feel great about the win.

 

[Sundown]

Alt grabbing is harder than wobbling... thats no news... i never said it wasnt.

You said "in Brawl, infinites actually take skill", and that sounds pretty general to me so, again, were you on drugs when you typed that?.

So, if you dont want people to misinterpret what you say, learn to type you Sau. (i doubt you have enough culture to even know what that means... scrubs these days...)

Anyway... wont beat a dead point, alt grabbing is harder than wobbling, thats true and i never said it wasnt. Melee is more technical than Brawl, thats true, and no1 can argue against it, so dont try to imply bull**** and next type you talk about one characters specific infinite, make sure you let everybody know that youre talking exactly about that.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Well I don't think there is such a thing as a perfect player. I just don't think it's possible. We all make mistakes, we're all human. Not to mention that this is a game of counters. There will always be someone who's play style counters yours.
But as it was said, Ice Climbers grab game is their only huge advantage. I suppose that when using ICs against anyone good, they'll know to expect a lot of grabbing, and probably avoid it enough for it to be a pretty fair match. I do think someone can master the chain grabs enough so that any grab is an insta-kill, but IC's weaknesses are still there.

 

[Atlantis]

You guys are forgetting how YOUNG brawl is as well. 90% of the ADV. Techs in Melee WERE NOT FOUND IN THE FIRST TWO OR THREE MONTHS OF THE GAME BEING OUT, and i use all caps not because im yelling or mad...just so you get the point of my post. I'm sure you all know this as well, but it seems to get forgotten. THere is no way or reason to compare Brawl skill to melee skill...its a NEW game and in due time more and more techs/exploits/glitches whatever you prefer to call them will be found. As for now, Infinites are the IC's greatest thing found for them. In a year, i guarantee you we will be singing a different tune about new techs for each and every character.

Reminisces picturing Melee:
Wavedashing
Samus uber slide thing
Link/Y. Link lfying above FD raining bombs on the stage for 20 seconds
mewtwo freeze glitch
blackhole glitch
many others.....

 

[Speedsk8er]

Alt grabbing is harder than wobbling... thats no news... i never said it wasnt.

You said "in Brawl, infinites actually take skill", and that sounds pretty general to me so, again, were you on drugs when you typed that?.

So, if you dont want people to misinterpret what you say, learn to type you Sau. (i doubt you have enough culture to even know what that means... scrubs these days...)

Anyway... wont beat a dead point, alt grabbing is harder than wobbling, thats true and i never said it wasnt. Melee is more technical than Brawl, thats true, and no1 can argue against it, so dont try to imply bull**** and next type you talk about one characters specific infinite, make sure you let everybody know that youre talking exactly about that.

Well, the thing is, we're on the IC boards so why would we be talking about anyone else's infinite? It should have been understood. >.>

 

[choknater]

Haha guys I am great at both games!

Anyway, yeah, I'm sure someone will pop up who can do cg's really well. But if he's not Void or some known player, he probably doesn't have the mindgammez to uphold his game!

I suck at cg's and my IC's always win wow. 0-100% dthrow fair ice block resets FTW!!!!!

Screw flashy alternate throws when you can do something easier/more efficient.

 

[Dan_X]

Well, the thing is, we're on the IC boards so why would we be talking about anyone else's infinite? It should have been understood. >.>

Yeah good point, it's pretty obvious what was meant. This is the IC boards after all, so how then could their be confusion?

 

[Dullahan]

Going back to the topic...

not to be rude here, but are they any non-grab related AT's that are related to the ic's

Desyncs?