The Original Midna for Brawl thread. (Debate the Wolf here!)

[Black/Light]

I looked at all the confirmed characters in all games, and made a list of categories that many fall under. It's not like any of the categories are very unpopulated. Several characters fall under one or more of those categories.

Well, one of your lil categories is "current main characters" and we all know who puts the TP in LoZ: TP. So yes, she even falls under your fan made rules or list so do you care to use a different angle?

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

I assume you mean angle, and I'm pretty sure my category was "current star".

 

[Black/Light]

I assume you mean angle, and I'm pretty sure my category was "current star".

Yes, thats what I said one min before you posted. And that IS what you typed. I got it right from here. .
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=3537447#post3537447

It actually makes a lil bit more sense in that matter but still . . . .not too good.

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

The category obviously referred to THE current main character, and was created for the sake of characters like Lucas and Ike.

 

[Black/Light]

The category obviously referred to THE current main character, and was created for the sake of characters like Lucas and Ike.

Well, you just lost what lil sense that list may have had.

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

...Characters that got in for the sole reason that they are the current main character of the current game.

The fact is that Midna is not the current main character of the current Zelda, or, Hell, the Zelda she appeared in. She was a major supporting character. She was the focus of the plot, just like Ezlo was, or the Wind Waker was, or Majora's Mask. Ezlo was not the main character of Minish Cap.

 

[Black/Light]

...Characters that got in for the sole reason that they are the current main character of the current game.

The fact is that Midna is not the current main character of the current Zelda, or, Hell, the Zelda she appeared in. She was a major supporting character. She was the focus of the plot, just like Ezlo was, or the Wind Waker was, or Majora's Mask. Ezlo was not the main character of Minish Cap.

Before we run off into some debate again (seeing as MC wasn't like Midna, he was just a helper/ MM wasn't like Midna, he was just the villian/ Before you say Vaati, he was not like Midna cause he was also just a villian and played the villian role/ and I have no idea WTF the WW was about but from what I can gather the WW played the same role as the "Ocarina" from the Ocarina of Time. . .a tool) I would like to address the fact that you seem to think that all characters in brawl will fall under your made up roles.

You want to know why your list is crap in my eyes? Cause if we see Claus confirmed in some random update down the road what happens? Oh no. . . your "roles" only made room for Lucas and are soo focused on non-important things that it couldn't warp around the thought of a main and important character from ONE game getting in.

And you said it yourself, Midna " was the focus of the plot" which is what that whole last debate was about and was what ALL of us where saying. A supporting character is usually used only to give dimension to a main character and NOT become the focus of the plot. A supporting character may sometimes get to develop a complexity of their own but said complexity IS NOT "the focus of the plot".

These characters may not seem very important, but usually you would notice it if you were to, say, watch a movie again, and they were not there. . . but the entire focus of the plot would NOT suddenly disappear.

Midna was a starring MAIN character in TP (again, the name) and she was the focus of the plot (as in, the star of the games story aka what I have been saying sense idk when).

And it's useless trying to debate on your terms. You have it set in your mind that your made up list is what characters are all likely to fall under. . . it's like trying to play a game someone made up and expecting it to appear fair on all sides.

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

Um, fun fact: The debate was who was the main character - Link, or Midna?

And basically, my list is crap to you because what it would mean is that a character like Lucas, Midna, Geno, Ashley, etc. would drop like a rock in the priority list.

And yeah, I didn't notice any time I said that all characters will fall under my made up list (funny - considering that every single character I listed falls under one of those categories, I guess it must be made up anyway), I think that's just you putting words into my mouth. The fact (yes, it is fact) that all primary characters in Smash fall under one of my categories. The category of female seems to be optional, as does the category of focus in plot. None of the characters shown so far in any game are JUST the focus of a plot, they were the main characters or the main villains or the mascot icon of said series, or the current star of the series, or a third party character, or a sidekick, or a commonly recurring character.

The fact remains that Midna's chances are down, no matter how much you dislike that idea. "Proportionally", Midna is lesser than most characters in Brawl, if not all. She's lesser than main characters (or stars) because they star in their own game - if they are accompanied by anyone, they are the main, and that anyone is their sidekick. Then the sidekick character, there have been few characters included that were sidekicks, but the ones such as Luigi are extremely prominent.

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

Um, fun fact: The debate was who was the main character - Link, or Midna?

And basically, my list is crap to you because what it would mean is that a character like Lucas, Midna, Geno, Ashley, etc. would drop like a rock in the priority list.

And yeah, I didn't notice any time I said that all characters will fall under my made up list (funny - considering that every single character I listed falls under one of those categories, I guess it must be made up anyway), I think that's just you putting words into my mouth. The fact (yes, it is fact) that all primary characters in Smash fall under one of my categories. The category of female seems to be optional, as does the category of focus in plot. None of the characters shown so far in any game are JUST the focus of a plot, they were the main characters or the main villains or the mascot icon of said series, or the current star of the series, or a third party character, or a sidekick, or a commonly recurring character.

The fact remains that Midna's chances are down, no matter how much you dislike that idea. "Proportionally", Midna is lesser than most characters in Brawl, if not all. She's lesser than main characters (or stars) because they star in their own game - if they are accompanied by anyone, they are the main, and that anyone is their sidekick. Then the sidekick character, there have been few characters included that were sidekicks, but the ones such as Luigi are extremely prominent.

 

[chaos_Leader]

Um, fun fact: The debate was who was the main character - Link, or Midna?

And basically, my list is crap to you because what it would mean is that a character like Lucas, Midna, Geno, Ashley, etc. would drop like a rock in the priority list.

And yeah, I didn't notice any time I said that all characters will fall under my made up list (funny - considering that every single character I listed falls under one of those categories, I guess it must be made up anyway), I think that's just you putting words into my mouth. The fact (yes, it is fact) that all primary characters in Smash fall under one of my categories. The category of female seems to be optional, as does the category of focus in plot. None of the characters shown so far in any game are JUST the focus of a plot, they were the main characters or the main villains or the mascot icon of said series, or the current star of the series, or a third party character, or a sidekick, or a commonly recurring character.

The fact remains that Midna's chances are down, no matter how much you dislike that idea. "Proportionally", Midna is lesser than most characters in Brawl, if not all. She's lesser than main characters (or stars) because they star in their own game - if they are accompanied by anyone, they are the main, and that anyone is their sidekick. Then the sidekick character, there have been few characters included that were sidekicks, but the ones such as Luigi are extremely prominent.

The sheer immense proportions of the Zelda franchise overrides this logic. the Legend of Zelda series is one of the most prominent of Nintendo franchises, right after Mario. the sheer recognition factor with the consumer base warrants a greater turnout than other series. Your list may work for lesser series like Metroid, StarFox or Fire Emblem. not not with the Legend of Zelda.

Look at Melee, how many Zelda reps did we get?:
1: Link
2: Zelda+Sheik
3: Ganondorf
4: Young Link

lets break this down ok?
4/26 = ~.15
therefore the number of LoZ characters (represented with 'Z') represented is (=) about .15 X total roster number (represented with 'R')

Z=.15R

that was with only 26 playable character positions,
For Brawl it appears there will be more characters, my personal estimate is approximately 42.

Now lets replace the 'total roster number' value with 42

{Z=.15R
{R=42

Z=.15(42)
Z=~6

the number of Legend of Zelda characters according to that simple mathematical formula will be about 6
even if there are only 36 playable characters (very slim here) the ratio comes out to about 5.4

currently we have in Brawl 2 confirmed LoZ representatives (3 counting Ganondorf). according to my calculation, there should be between 5 and 6 represented (not counting Sheik)
1:Link
2: Zelda+(Sheik?)
3: (Ganondorf)
4: Unknown
5: Unknown
(6): (Unknown)

(all approximations were rounded down)

Are there really three LoZ characters, even two who could be more deserving of a spot in Brawl more than Midna? If there are, you'd better have some Really good arguments that not only I and the folks in SWF agree with, but also arguments that a team of developers making a smash bros game would agree with. I have not put words in your mouth, I gave you an argument completely of my own and unrelated to your or anyone else's list. You have your challenge, now prove me wrong if you are so certain.

 

[Numa Dude]

I'm sorry but I have to join this because this guy is getting double teamed and I hate when people do that.

The sheer immense proportions of the Zelda franchise overrides this logic. the Legend of Zelda series is one of the most prominent of Nintendo franchises, right after Mario. the sheer recognition factor with the consumer base warrants a greater turnout than other series. Your list may work for lesser series like Metroid, StarFox or Fire Emblem. not not with the Legend of Zelda.

Why are so many people under the impression that Sakurai is being biased toward the big franchises? If anything he is obviously trying to make sure all of the franchises have a balanced amount of characters, hence newcomers like Diddy and DeDeDe. He has so far shown that he wants all the smaller franchises to have their important characters as well.

Look at Melee, how many Zelda reps did we get?:
1: Link
2: Zelda+Sheik
3: Ganondorf
4: Young Link

lets break this down ok?
4/26 = ~.15
therefore the number of LoZ characters (represented with 'Z') represented is (=) about .15 X total roster number (represented with 'R')

Z=.15R

that was with only 26 playable character positions,
For Brawl it appears there will be more characters, my personal estimate is approximately 42.

Now lets replace the 'total roster number' value with 42

{Z=.15R
{R=42

Z=.15(42)
Z=~6

the number of Legend of Zelda characters according to that simple mathematical formula will be about 6
even if there are only 36 playable characters (very slim here) the ratio comes out to about 5.4

This entire thing is bull****. Unless you are working on the game you have no idea how many characters will be in per franchise. Trying to figure it out is meaningless because you don't know how Sakurai's mind works.

currently we have in Brawl 2 confirmed LoZ representatives (3 counting Ganondorf). according to my calculation, there should be between 5 and 6 represented (not counting Sheik)
1:Link
2: Zelda+(Sheik?)
3: (Ganondorf)
4: Unknown
5: Unknown
(6): (Unknown)

(all approximations were rounded down)

Are there really three LoZ characters, even two who could be more deserving of a spot in Brawl more than Midna?

Why yes there are. For one theres Tingle or as I like to call him THE GUY WITH HIS OWN GAME, Cell shaded Y.Link who would represent the cell shaded games and Vaati the main villain of the Cell shaded games.

 

[Earthbenderjump5]

yeah, but all those characters you just named, suck.

i would much rather.

skull kid/major (who also had their own game at least with their name in it).
Minda(the same as skull kid)

those two are more deserving then a retarted guy who thinks hes a fairy (suraki .spelling. is not dumb enough to put him in as a pc.).
and a clone. i thought he said he was trying to get rid of clones are something. even if he looks different and has different moves. it is still link. one of his ancestors or something but it is still him. no matter what.
his bombs may look different he may have a leaf but its still him. so please, please don't ever mention those 2 again. i hate them. seriously. and, vattii is okay. just okay. atcually nevermind, if vatii is the main villian of the cell shaded games who i hate so much and since i highly doubt ww link is going to be in. or i hope. i doubt vattii would be in. seriously. and whoever made up this tingle crap and supports them. must really have something goin on in their head.

 

[MysticKenji]

yeah, but all those characters you just named, suck.

i would much rather.

skull kid/major (who also had their own game at least with their name in it).
Minda(the same as skull kid)

those two are more deserving then a retarted guy who thinks hes a fairy (suraki .spelling. is not dumb enough to put him in as a pc.).
and a clone. i thought he said he was trying to get rid of clones are something. even if he looks different and has different moves. it is still link. one of his ancestors or something but it is still him. no matter what.
his bombs may look different he may have a leaf but its still him. so please, please don't ever mention those 2 again. i hate them. seriously. and, vattii is okay. just okay. atcually nevermind, if vatii is the main villian of the cell shaded games who i hate so much and since i highly doubt ww link is going to be in. or i hope. i doubt vattii would be in. seriously. and whoever made up this tingle crap and supports them. must really have something goin on in their head.

Given that you support Gengar, I don't think you should be saying anything about other people have something wrong in their heads.

Also, WW Link =/= TP Link

 

[Earthbenderjump5]

yeah, but i know thats never gunna happen.
they think they might get in.

 

[UsernameLink]

This entire thing is bull****. Unless you are working on the game you have no idea how many characters will be in per franchise. Trying to figure it out is meaningless because you don't know how Sakurai's mind works.

And neither do you, for all you know, Sakurai's mind could be thinking "Midna was an important character with a great possible moveset!".

 

[PDawgy]

And neither do you, for all you know, Sakurai's mind could be thinking "Midna was an important character with a great possible moveset!".

hey can I steal your midna and wolf link sig

 

[Black/Light]

Um, fun fact: The debate was who was the main character - Link, or Midna?

Alright, now that I have seen all the hentai I need for the day I will reply.

Fun Fact: WE, as in "the Midna fans", were saying she was the main character story wise. Maybe you didn't know thats the angle we were hitting at.

And basically, my list is crap to you because what it would mean is that a character like Lucas, Midna, Geno, Ashley, etc. would drop like a rock in the priority list.

Ummm, Lucas is already in. . .and who said anything about Ashley?

And no, your list is crap to me because it makes no sense. Surreee, you can label all melee to known brawl characters how ever you want. . . doesn't mean thats how they actually got in nor does it mean that thats WHY they where picked. Lets look at your list. . .

1. Mascots (ie, Mario) (WTF!?! Mario is the main character of his series. "Mascot" would only appeal to something that doesn't have a fixed main character like FE or Pokemon. Mario didn't just pop in as the mascot of nintendo, he is the main character of the series that made nintendo a gaming name. Yea, he is a moscot. . .but how many characters got in as mascots and not main characters in any form? (Pika. . .Marth was a main character and so is PT. Main character and mascot should be looked at in the same light)
2. Current main characters (ie, Ike) (How is being the main character any different in this respect? Brawl is useing the latest of most games as the top influance of a series so it's pretty moot to split hairs about how current a main character is.)
3. Retro stars (ie, Ice Climbers) (Again, this is spliting hairs. the retro characters are all main characters of their series. . . basicaly 1-3 all mean main characters)
4. Recurring characters (ie, Luigi) (Sooo, Luigi got in because he was simply recurring and not because he is important to the games? What about the fact he is Mario's side kick? "Recurring character" means something as general as Kamek could also get in. . . not important but he/she is recurring enuff by your logic)
5. Third party stars (ie, Snake) (. . .Wtf? You need to give 3rd parties their own spot? Add that into "main character")
6. Original main characters (ie, Marth) (Marth and PT both support that merger of Mascot and Main Character)

You are basicaly repeating the same thing. As in. . .
1.Main character-mascot/ 2.Main character-mascot/ 3.main character-mascot/ 4.recurring characters (like Kamek, Tingla, Warluigi. . .recurrance is what counts, not importance by the looks of it)/ 5. Main character-mascot/ 6. Main character-mascot.

Hell, unless a character is the main character-mascot they have to be recurring by your logic. . . meaning their importance to their games and series are not important (again, by your list and logic).
(And for that I have to say Jpuff was never a mascot/ main character/ RECURRING character when she got into SSB64. She was just a popular, cute, pink girly pokemon back than. . .and thats why she got in.)

And yeah, I didn't notice any time I said that all characters will fall under my made up list (funny - considering that every single character I listed falls under one of those categories, I guess it must be made up anyway), I think that's just you putting words into my mouth.

You are trying to use your list in which you shoe horn titles such as "recurring characters (which means even Happy mask sales man can be in)" for characters who have appeared in the melee and even brawl as "proof" Midna is less likely than Vaati or w/e other LoZ character you like.

Your list doesn't prove anything there fore I call crap on it. You just tossed a few general terms together and say "Midna doesn't fall under these terms (half of which where never in SSB64) so she is "less likely" than a deconfirmed map seller, a decloned Y.Link and another villian who was in some not-very-important games. If you don't think all characters will fall under your "list" than stop using it to debate Midna.

The fact (yes, it is fact) that all primary characters in Smash fall under one of my categories. The category of female seems to be optional, as does the category of focus in plot. None of the characters shown so far in any game are JUST the focus of a plot, they were the main characters or the main villains or the mascot icon of said series, or the current star of the series, or a third party character, or a sidekick, or a commonly recurring character.

Actually, as I said before, Jpuff doesn't fit into that. She is not a mascot nor is she a main character and in the ssb64 game she had only appeared in the R/B/G games. . .and Adult Link was also not the current or orginal Main Character of the LoZ series in melee, Young Link was in MM which was the "current" LoZ game. And you seemed to have slipped "side kick/ villian" into that. . .you keep calling Midna a "supporting character" and thats exactly what a supporting character is (a side kick).
So even in your new fond logic she falls into one of those.

Not only that but you are spliting hairs in more than one aspect.
(Yeeeeeeeeaaaa!!! I just canned my Bank of America bank account! )

The fact remains that Midna's chances are down, no matter how much you dislike that idea. "Proportionally", Midna is lesser than most characters in Brawl, if not all. She's lesser than main characters (or stars) because they star in their own game - if they are accompanied by anyone, they are the main, and that anyone is their sidekick. Then the sidekick character, there have been few characters included that were sidekicks, but the ones such as Luigi are extremely prominent.

The fact remains that you fail to apply this to the LoZ series (I would point out fails in that above logic but Im tired. . .and too happy about my bank account being closed).
The only true main characters of the whole series are always going to be Link/ Zelda/ Ganon and after that theres a select few characters who are even remotely important enuff to get in. The fact that the game that Midna appears in, stars in, is a main character in, is important in (and what YOU would call a side kick in) is also the main focus of the LoZ series in brawl (ranging not only in character models but moves, stages and songs) "ups her chances". You don't seem to like the idea of Midna getting in over a simple recurring villian you like.

Example of what Im talking about. Melee poll. ..
Legend of Zelda:
1. Ganon (Ganondorf)
2. Young Link
2. Princess Zelda
2. Sheik
5. Darunia


Ganon was the most wanted character followed by Y Link, Zelda and Sheik (again, Sheik was not a recurring, main, side kick or villian character) all tied for 2nd place. Point is, compared to the 100s of Pokemon and the 10 Mario characters who where on that poll LoZ didn't have many characters. Why, cause few characters from that series are as important or popular as they are so few people voted for anything other than them. This series has soo few important characters other than them that, yes, Midna stands out. She stands out soo much that she was named "Character of the year" in 06 by Nintendo Power. She stands out soo much that TP's dev said that not only he but Miyamoto really liked her and that he is willing to bring her back. She stands out soo much that of the not-deconfirmed LoZ characters she only has comp in the form of some villian from 3 lesser/ not-very-important games. (Again, WW Link=New Y link)

 

[chaos_Leader]

I'm sorry but I have to join this because this guy is getting double teamed and I hate when people do that.




Why are so many people under the impression that Sakurai is being biased toward the big franchises? If anything he is obviously trying to make sure all of the franchises have a balanced amount of characters, hence newcomers like Diddy and DeDeDe. He has so far shown that he wants all the smaller franchises to have their important characters as well.



This entire thing is bull****. Unless you are working on the game you have no idea how many characters will be in per franchise. Trying to figure it out is meaningless because you don't know how Sakurai's mind works.



Why yes there are. For one theres Tingle or as I like to call him (size change)THE GUY WITH HIS OWN GAME,[/SIZE] Cell shaded Y.Link who would represent the cell shaded games and Vaati the main villain of the Cell shaded games.

Rather than insult me and tell me I'm stupid, you could elaborate on why my logic is flawed, and point out why we should listen to you instead. What makes your logic any more valid than mine? I use already proven statistics to determine an approximate number in a character roster, do proper research on characters' background and popularity, and make note of feasible character attributes that can be applied in an SSB game.

To debunk your alternates:

Tingle:
popular in Japan yes, but looking at Melee and Brawl, the characters included were more fighter-ish with one exception in Game and Watch who was included for other resons. Note the parallel with Deoxys and Stafy, popular, but too young and too minor of representation -independent handheld games are statistically less numerous and therefore less recognizable as a full console game- in it's gaming history and too unfeasible to make a worthwhile SSB character. Midna has the recognition of the consumer-base (Tingle has some also but lesser without a US release). Midna has storyline significance in the latest and greatest LoZ game, (Tingle was a minor character in MM, the same in WW, Has own game in Japan, however, the concepts in "Freshly Picked: Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland" do not provide a feasible SSB character template, note the parallel with Lip. Minda has vast opportunities for a feasible character template from LoZ TP. Futhermore and possibly most significant: Tingle has been revealed as a trophy and not been confirmed as a character. Peach was shown in a SSE update and quickly confirmed afterward. Tingle's image has been up for over 3 months as of Christmas eve and no clarification on his PC status. Therefore I must conjecture that Tingle most likely will not be a playable character.

Cel-Shaded Link:
There is possibility in this one. Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass and Minish Cap have opportunities to deviate this Link from the current Twilight Princess Link. But that does beg the question of "How far can you break two links away from each other?" The LoZ game engine makes all the Links operate more-or-less like all the Links before. He's going to have a sword and a shield, from there you have to use completely different special moves to deviate Cel-Shaded Link from Twilight Princess Link or risk a clone. although there is popularity enough to warrant this incarnation of Link, the feasibility of placing another Link without feeling like the same thing significantly diminishes his probability.

Vaati:
The argument for Vaati is dependent on Cel-Shaded Link's inclusion. With no Cel-Shaded Link, there is no reason to include Vaati. even if there was Cel-Shaded Link in, Vaati suffers the same dilemma as other characters that have recently emerged in the handheld department: consumer base recognition. Less people are going to recognize Vaati from a handheld than Midna from a main-stream console game, ex: Lyn made it as an AT, the GBA game she was in did not have the consumer base recognition to warrant an entire character.

You may call this a load of BS if you will but I have done my research mad taken my notes. It is true I don't know how Sakurai's mind works, I'm just going off statistics and probability. I simply take what we already know and fit it to what we don't. from what i have gathered, I must conjecture that Midna fits best in this case.

 

[chaos_Leader]

double post.

 

[Stryks]

wait guys, I mean think about it, adding midna, der I mean she kjust had the biggest role in the latest zelda, which is getting the most rep, and shes really popular, but cmon shes in only one game, lets be like numa dude and add a totally minor character like HAPPY MASK SALESMAN!!1!!1ONE[/SARCASM] *cue laughter*

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

I'm pretty sure the character treated as the main character of the game is Link, not Midna.

 

[The Slayer]

Link and Midna are both main characters in TP, no matter how badly you want to deny it.

 

[raphtmarqui]

I'm pretty sure the character treated as the main character of the game is Link, not Midna.

Who cares who's the main character. There both important enough to be playable and its just a matter of who the dev team wants to put in the roster.

 

[Black/Light]

I'm pretty sure the character treated as the main character of the game is Link, not Midna.

. . .You like runner to the term "GAME" when even you yourself know what we are talking about. He said. . .
"biggest role in the latest zelda, which is getting the most rep"

As in, the biggest "role" in the story of the latest Zelda. . .which you even said yourself.
And omegaslayer is right.

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

As I see it, any role in TP is a role. Therefore, it stands to reason that Link has the biggest role in TP - the face of TP. Midna is basically in the same position as the Minish Cap - the only difference is that she is a living being. The game has never been about Link - it's always been about Link being thrust into a quest that involves others. LoZ, he was recruited by Impa to save Zelda, same with Zelda II. LttP, he was asked by Zelda to rescue her. This is true in Twilight Princess, Minish Cap, Oracle of Ages/Seasons, Wind Waker, etc. And Majora's Mask, Link just happened upon Termina. True, he has his own motives, but they were limited to getting Epona, finding Navi, recovering the Ocarina, etc. The whole point of it is for Link to save Termina. The only games where Link is a part of the plot outside of being thrust into it are Link's Awakening, and Ocarina of Time - while Link is thrust into something in LA, his objective is to escape from the dream island.

Link has been the main character in all of these, even though his role is often just the "chosen one" who falls into the true plot.

 

[The Slayer]

The face of TP was not just Link or even heavily on him. (I'm going to say this next sentence every time you state something like this) Link and Midna are the main focus in TP. Yes, Link will nearly always be on a quest where he's being dragged into matters that are way more important than his current affairs, which is bascially a general idea that is being used lot for many Zelda games that most of us has played and yet to be played. Aside from that, he's not just the main character for every Zelda game.

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

He's on the cover, every single trailer that has ever been created for TP features him more than anyone else. Every single commercial features him more than anyone else - all the print ads feature him most. The Wind Waker wasn't the face of WW, so why is the Twilight Princess the face of TP? Midna may have an immense amount of depth, greater than that of the Wind Waker's, but Link is THE star of the game - almost every single part of the game is seen from Link's perspective.

 

[The Slayer]

He can be in many ads and pictures for the game, for most of the game it can be in his perspective, but no matter what, Link and Midna are the main focus of TP. Lets recap on these two suggestions you made.

The Wind Waker was an object being occasionally used for major parts of sailing and puzzles being used by the Hero of Winds. Without that object, it would be harder to sail or he wouldn't become the Hero of Winds and would most likely never saved his sister, keeping the seas covering Hyrule, and stopping Ganondorf from ruling Hyrule.

The Twilight Princess is a female ruler that keeps control of a realm that could be spread to the Light Realm with a deadly effect if not handle right. Unfortunately, a usurper made that happen and now needs Link (and Link needs her) to restore both realms to normal. Without the Twilight Princess, it would be a lot harder for Link to get the children that were kidnapped, harder to get out of puzzles that needs Midna's help, and harder for Link to defeat Zant and Ganondorf by himself.

Besides, Midna is not an object. She not even used for one purpose either. She can do many things that most side-kicks/major objects couldn't do in previous games, like teleporting you to other places, lock on multiple enemies while you were a wolf, holding and taking down heavy objects, guiding you through hard places as a wolf that most wolfs won't attempted, using the powers of the Fused Shadows for heavy ordeals, and (the old usual) hinting you what to do next and what weakness that enemies had. Not to mention she's deeply involved in the story's biggest ordeals.

For the last time, Link is a co-star of this game, not the star. Without Midna, then yes, he would definitely be the star of the game. However, she in it, she just as important as Link in the story, which makes them both stars of the game, no matter which role is more important than the other.

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

You're completely overlooking the point that being a living thing doesn't make her role in the game different. The Ocarina of Time is about the Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask is about Majora's Mask, the Oracle games are about the Oracles, The Wind Waker is about the Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass is about the Phantom Hourglass, The Minish Cap is about the Minish Cap, Four Sword is about the Four Sword, and Twilight Princess is about the Twilight Princess. However, at no point is Link not the primary star of all of these games. Arguing that Midna is equal to Link in importance is like arguing that Zelda is the star of the series just because of the title - it's not so. Only two games are actually about Link, but no one would even dare suggest that that makes him the main character in only two games.

 

[The Slayer]

So you saying Link is not a primary star of all the games, but you said it for TP that he's THE main character. What logical point are you trying to make here?

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

Oh, yes, I did say that, didn't I? It must also be when I said that pixies were flying out of the Queen's ***.

He IS the primary star. Let me bring up the detective analogy. He is the primary star. However, every book featuring him rarely ever features a plot that he is connected with. Link is thrust into the positions he gets in in all these games just like the detective does. The stories are not about the detective, but he is involving himself and becoming a crucial factor - everything is seen through the detective, and the detective is the common element in said story. Are Arthur Conan Doyle's plots in the Sherlock Holmes about Sherlock Holmes? No (unless otherwise stated). They are about whatever case Sherlock is trying to solve. This, however, has not, does not, and will not change the fact that he is the star.

 

[Black/Light]

You're completely overlooking the point that being a living thing doesn't make her role in the game different. The Ocarina of Time is about the Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask is about Majora's Mask, the Oracle games are about the Oracles, The Wind Waker is about the Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass is about the Phantom Hourglass, The Minish Cap is about the Minish Cap, Four Sword is about the Four Sword, and Twilight Princess is about the Twilight Princess. However, at no point is Link not the primary star of all of these games. Arguing that Midna is equal to Link in importance is like arguing that Zelda is the star of the series just because of the title - it's not so. Only two games are actually about Link, but no one would even dare suggest that that makes him the main character in only two games.

Hummm, I wonder what english classes you take. Cause for some reason you don't seem to grasp the concept of a consant narrator/ perspective not being the main character and/ or key focus of a story. You are trying to add Midna up to a simple item used in past game. . . with no success in doing so I might add.

You also refuse to stick to your claims. "Midna's just a supporting character" you say yet a supporting character is also called the "side-kick" which you boldly stated is one of those titles that are fulled after the main character. . .. Midna is the ONLY possible "side kick" in that respect well we already have the villian title fulled (Tingla being de-confirmed, WW Link being a decloned Y link (not a new character) and Vaati being a lesser villian from not-so-important games. . .she seems likely compared to her comp).

There, you said it yourself, to you Midna is a "supporting/ side kick" character and thats one title that gets commonly fulled up according to you. By this logic you should accept her as a likely character choice using your very own logic.

 

[The Slayer]

What you are pretty much saying to me is that Link and only Link keeps his stardom while others are left in the dark as minor characters (Zelda, Ganondorf, etc)? Oh yeah, that's a reasonable explanation.[/sarcasm]

 

[Numa Dude]

Rather than insult me and tell me I'm stupid, you could elaborate on why my logic is flawed,

I never insulted you but whatever.

and point out why we should listen to you instead. What makes your logic any more valid than mine? I use already proven statistics to determine an approximate number in a character roster,

That's just the problem. Your "statistics" aren't at all proven. You seem to be under the impression that Sakurai is going to increase the number of playable characters per series depending on how big they are which is VERY flawed logic because Sakurai has shown with the updates that he wants to balance the amount of characters per series.

do proper research on characters' background and popularity, and make note of feasible character attributes that can be applied in an SSB game.

Don't care.

To debunk your alternates:

Tingle:
popular in Japan yes, but looking at Melee and Brawl, the characters included were more fighter-ish with one exception in Game and Watch who was included for other resons. Note the parallel with Deoxys and Stafy, popular, but too young and too minor of representation -independent handheld games are statistically less numerous and therefore less recognizable as a full console game- in it's gaming history and too unfeasible to make a worthwhile SSB character. Midna has the recognition of the consumer-base (Tingle has some also but lesser without a US release). Midna has storyline significance in the latest and greatest LoZ game, (Tingle was a minor character in MM, the same in WW, Has own game in Japan, however, the concepts in "Freshly Picked: Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland" do not provide a feasible SSB character template, note the parallel with Lip. Minda has vast opportunities for a feasible character template from LoZ TP. Futhermore and possibly most significant: Tingle has been revealed as a trophy and not been confirmed as a character. Peach was shown in a SSE update and quickly confirmed afterward. Tingle's image has been up for over 3 months as of Christmas eve and no clarification on his PC status. Therefore I must conjecture that Tingle most likely will not be a playable character.

Not this trophy crap again. the trophy has absolutley no affect on Tingle. Ganondorf was first seen in melee as a trophy so obviously Sakurai doesn't give a rats *** how we find characters. I don't get what you mean by fighter-ish. If you mean they could fight you are wrong because there where a ton of characters in melee that never fought. Tingle's game is set to be released in both Europe and America soon so your consumer base argument is moot and Tingle has a ton of moveset potential from his game like hiring bodyguards and throwing rupees.

Cel-Shaded Link:
There is possibility in this one. Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass and Minish Cap have opportunities to deviate this Link from the current Twilight Princess Link. But that does beg the question of "How far can you break two links away from each other?" The LoZ game engine makes all the Links operate more-or-less like all the Links before. He's going to have a sword and a shield, from there you have to use completely different special moves to deviate Cel-Shaded Link from Twilight Princess Link or risk a clone. although there is popularity enough to warrant this incarnation of Link, the feasibility of placing another Link without feeling like the same thing significantly diminishes his probability.

If there is no problem with Mario and Luigi being similar then there should be no problem with the 2 Links.

Vaati:
The argument for Vaati is dependent on Cel-Shaded Link's inclusion. With no Cel-Shaded Link, there is no reason to include Vaati. even if there was Cel-Shaded Link in, Vaati suffers the same dilemma as other characters that have recently emerged in the handheld department: consumer base recognition. Less people are going to recognize Vaati from a handheld than Midna from a main-stream console game, ex: Lyn made it as an AT, the GBA game she was in did not have the consumer base recognition to warrant an entire character.

I dissagree about that. I don't think the handhelds are less recognizable than the consoles at all.

wait guys, I mean think about it, adding midna, der I mean she kjust had the biggest role in the latest zelda, which is getting the most rep, and shes really popular, but cmon shes in only one game, lets be like numa dude and add a totally minor character like HAPPY MASK SALESMAN!!1!!1ONE[/SARCASM] *cue laughter*

You know what Stryks, you are absolutley right. We should definitley add a one off character like Midna who is likely to never appear again over an older character with nostalgic and possible retro value who is many times more unique and has been in more games and has been one of the most important characters in what many fans consider the best Zelda ever. If I need to put the Sarcasm tag I'm gonna slap you right in the head.

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

Well, let's see.

Number of Zelda games without Link: 0

Number of Zelda games without Zelda: 1

Number of Zelda games without Ganondorf: 5

They are, in fact, less important than Link.

And Link isn't IN the role of a narrator, he's in the role of the main character. The hypothetical detective is NOT the narrator, he's the character that people see the plot through. Link is NOT the narrator, he's the character that people see the plot through.

 

[Black/Light]

Well, let's see.

Number of Zelda games without Link: 0

Number of Zelda games without Zelda: 1

Number of Zelda games without Ganondorf: 5

They are, in fact, less important than Link.

And Link isn't IN the role of a narrator, he's in the role of the main character. The hypothetical detective is NOT the narrator, he's the character that people see the plot through. Link is NOT the narrator, he's the character that people see the plot through.

You clearly didn't read my post right. . . .
"Cause for some reason you don't seem to grasp the concept of a consant narrator/ perspective not being the main character and/ or key focus of a story."
(perspective=Subjective evaluation of relative significance; a point of view: the perspective of the displaced homemaker.)

Stop trying to use the loss term "detective story".


And would you like to address the last part. . .
"There, you said it yourself, to you Midna is a "supporting/ side kick" character and thats one title that gets commonly fulled up according to you. By this logic you should accept her as a likely character choice using your very own logic."

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

Every single game in the Zelda series is from his perspective. And that means what? He's the only consistent character in the Zelda series. He's the star of Twilight Princess. The game is not about him, it's about the plot which Link becomes the main character IN. He becomes the person that saves the day, who fixes everything.

And no, just because you can't give a decent response to the detective argument, I'm not going xto get rid of it. The detective is in the exact same position as Link is in his games, and he is the main character of his books. He is the only string connecting all the books, just like Link is the only string connecting Zelda. He is the main character of every single Zelda game ever made, with about zero exceptions.

And the sidekick argument is poor. Any sidekick in the SSB series has been in many, many games, while Midna is a sidekick in one game, and if TP follows the Zelda style, she won't be a sidekick in a future game unless there's a spin-off involving her in some way.

 

[Black/Light]

Every single game in the Zelda series is from his perspective. And that means what? He's the only consistent character in the Zelda series. He's the star of Twilight Princess. The game is not about him, it's about the plot which Link becomes the main character IN. He becomes the person that saves the day, who fixes everything.

You sound like your talking yourself into circles.
You say Midna is the focus of the story, the central character of the plot to the game. Thats what we where saying (Midna fans), that she was the star of the story, that main character of the story, the focus of the story, the central character of the plot which is what the game is about. You than bypass that and act as if she was a mear item and not a character at all. . .

And no, just because you can't give a decent response to the detective argument, I'm not going xto get rid of it. The detective is in the exact same position as Link is in his games, and he is the main character of his books. He is the only string connecting all the books, just like Link is the only string connecting Zelda. He is the main character of every single Zelda game ever made, with about zero exceptions.

. . . Useing the general term "detective story" is like using the term "love story". Theres sooo many ways one could be made that it's too general to mean anything in this case.

And the sidekick argument is poor. Any sidekick in the SSB series has been in many, many games, while Midna is a sidekick in one game, and if TP follows the Zelda style, she won't be a sidekick in a future game unless there's a spin-off involving her in some way.

1. You keep calling her a side kick. . . name another important side kick in the LoZ series. (I don't agree with you but WTH, you oveously want to down play her importance in any way you can. Going from ranking her as a simple item like the Wind Waker in one post and in another calling her a simple supporting character.)
2. Lucas was only a main character in one game. Number of games a character has been in is not as important as the importance they played in w/e game Sakurai and Sakurai's friends are focusing on.

And again, would you explain how jpuff got into ssb64 and how adult Link got into melee with your logic? I mean, Jpuff doesn't fall under any of your list titles and Adult Link was only in one game that was not the "current" game nor was it the original Link. Hell, half of your list never came till melee. . . it's very likely your list wont be correct for brawl so I don't see the use in standing on it for brawl.

Point, you shouldn't limate yourself to the limates of your own list.

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

1. Being the focus of a plot in a Zelda game has never ever made them the main character ever, so why now?

2. How? A love story can involve any one of the following:

A. Detective
B. Shopkeeper
C. Blacksmith
D. Flower girl
E. Klan member

Basically, anyone with a pulse. A detective story, a traditional one, is set up with the detective investigating a case unrelated to him. A love story can involve any number of people from any group of people as the main characters. The tyypical detective story is about the detective and a case.

3. Wow, you're pretty good at arguing - assuming you constantly twist my words until they turn into some extremist version of what I actually said.

4. Lucas is the #1. most important character of the current and final Mother game in the series.

5. Jigglypuff was the second choice for the mascot of Pokémon, it's one of the most popular in Japan. Wow, so insignificant. Adult Link was the latest version of Link, and was very popular. So insignificant.

6. The limitations applied aren't self-created, I used what the characters are and aren't.

 

[Stryks]

Lucas is the #1. most important character of the current and final Mother game in the series.

Jigglypuff was the second choice for the mascot of Pokémon, it's one of the most popular in Japan. Wow, so insignificant. Adult Link was the latest version of Link, and was very popular. So insignificant.

Midna was the most important character in the game aside from link, that, lets face it, his only role was to save the day, midna is THE twilight princess, and her role in the game is huge... so tu sum it up shes the most important of the current and latest home console Zelda game

Right now Midnas popularity is huge, when the poll was made TP wasnt released yet so dont bring that up if u dare, her popularity is huge, shes unique,and her role in the game was spot on the best in the game

Just because shes new and will possibly never have another role in a zelda game, doesnt mean she cant be in, I mean look at shiek...