The Original Midna for Brawl thread. (Debate the Wolf here!)

[Deleted member]

I liked Midna, I think she'll be really good in Brawl. Not with Wolf Link though. A lot of movesets I've seen revolve around Midna's Twilight magic mostly.

 

[Mad555]

I liked Midna, I think she'll be really good in Brawl. Not with Wolf Link though. A lot of movesets I've seen revolve around Midna's Twilight magic mostly.

As long as Midna gets in(which is likely), i'll be satisfied with pc characters from the zelda franchise.

 

[Yitik]

My computer seems to be acting wierd today.

Join the club .

I'm saving that pic. The color thing was a joke (that you apparently missed) and my love of MM has nothing to do with my opinion of Midna.

lol...Haterade . That one's going on my screen saver. And I believe you, though I will say you take a very radical approach on both of them.

I obviously have to show you an example of a flaming Midna fan for you to believe me.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=71997&highlight=skull+kid&page=30

Read from that page up (it might take awhile to get through the whole thing) and you will see alot of flaming from Midna fan boys. I just realised something when I went back to find that page. I'm doing EXACTLY what those douches did to the SK supporters. I'm mindlessly attacking for no real reason. At first I was bored and thought that starting a debate would start up some excitement but my calling of you guys n00bs was uncalled for. I'm sorry.

Well, that's in Smash Boards. Go to a Midna Fan Club, or the MFF or something like that. You can seriously run in there, start swearing your *** off and talking about how badly Midna sucks, and really they'll just go "Well, you're not in the right place. Most people here would disagree with you, but enjoy your stay all the same. Oh, and stop flaming, otherwise you might make someone mad." And that's no exaggeration. And apology accepted . I knew there was an intelligent human being in there somewhere.

I don't think the Mother analogy fits. Mother has a new main character in every game so it makes sense to choose the most recent one (Lucas) but if that's true why was Ness in 64 and melee? I believe I heard somewhere it had something to do with Ness's game being international and Mother 3 not being out yet but I could be wrong.

Yeah, EarthBound is the only one of the three that made it to the west (and there, it didn't do terribly well until a lot later). However, there are recurring characters in the game. The Flying Men, for instance. The protagonist changes, but many of the plot points, places, and secondary characters remain.

Why exactly does Tingle not count? SK has been in 3 games BTW all the same skull kid. What do you mean vague characters?

I just enjoy bashing Tingle, but really you can't tell me he's one of your favs for Brawl. Half the world hates him, and it happens to be the half of the world that devs are paying attention to (or should be, since it's a faster growing market). And sorry for the mistake on Skull Kid. I know he's the same character, but while in MM he was the main antagonist until later in the story, in TP he was some playful albeit annoying bugger who in all irony led you to the Master Sword. And do I really have to state examples? The one-game wonders? Unlocalized franchises? Series that are all but forgotten? Ness, G&W, IC, Pichu, Sheik, Marth, Roy...characters that don't have as large of an audience as competitors, but made it in all the same due to their uniqueness and value for future games.

How do you get bad taste in story from me making fun of Midna's personality?

Nintendo totally OD'd on Midna's personality in TP. People loved it, people complained about it, but no one denied that it was the driving force of the game. At face value, her actions speak nothing for her uniqueness, but it's how it's played out. She moves so smoothly from being arrogant, devilish, and rude to an enlightened albeit mysterious usurped princess that you might not even notice the change until you replay the game. Unlike other characters before her that change due to one event, MDH wasn't the point where she started to shed her selfishness. There were tiny hints towards it throughout the first three temples. It was brilliantly played out, but somehow you can't see it, which would be a little like reading Homer's bit about the many-headed sea beast Scylla tearing up Odysseus's crew, and saying, "This is boring." Which people do as well, unfortunately.

A friend of mine made a thread about this on another Zelda forum. His entire argument was destroyed by one post. I'll quote it here.

"First off, without Midna, Link wouldn't even have entered the Twilight. Were it not for the BOTH of them, Twilight Princess would have never ended.

There is no despute between who is the real hero. None of them could do it without each other.

Link is Midna's hero, Midna is Link's hero.

Midna gives access to the Twilight so he can stop the spread, that's how she is his hero, and Link saves Hyrule to bring peace to the Twilight, that's how he is her hero.

You can't really debate over this. It's just the way it is. But Link being the chosen one would be the only way to stop the Twilight.

And? Did I say that Link was unnecessary? No, I said that Midna was more central to the plot.

Midna can't do sh*t when it comes to taking Link's part. Nintendo specifically made it Link as the hero and Midna his sidekick."

Proof, please. Just because the player takes the role of Link doesn't make him the only main character. In many stories there are multiple protagonists; I'm saying that this is one of those cases, and that while Link is the player and central in the game, Midna was significantly more developed and thus is the protagonist of the story.

Midna has her importance I'll give you that but it's nowhere near Link's.

Plot-wise, beyond Link's. Yeah, they're both each other's heroes. Very magical. Midna turns around and helps Link care for and free his world, while Link follows Midna into the Twilight Realm to help her reclaim her broken kingdom. However, if you were to write out the story of Twilight Princess on paper, you'd be using Midna's name much more than Link's. That, I can guarantee you.

It was a family guy joke.

I don't watch that show. Sorry.

Do I really have to? name one point in TP that is as sad as the Deku crying for his son.

Hmm. In chronological order: Colin being rescued, Colin's mother finding out he's still alive, Midna's sacrifice, Zelda's subsequent sacrifice, Midna's supposed death, and Midna's departure. Those are all the bits I've heard people say they cried over.

I've given none? What about the DEKU BUTLERS SON!

That's depth? Did it have a long, complex storyline? Did the characters have round, dynamic, realistic personalities? By the sounds of things, the scene was similar to that Koopa guy in Paper Mario 2 finding [supposedly] his dead father in Hooktail's castle. It wasn't that sad at all.

You missed my point completely. Just because you haven't heard of something does not mean it doesn't exist or it is scarce.

Sorry. I hate this quote system; it erases all the old quotes and I have to strain my eyes and find the one I was looking for O_o . x_x Um...oh, found it. Majora's Mask prequel. So...link us, mate. Show us the masses of people who would spend hours of their limited time for the hopes of a game between OoT and MM.

Not really but the shade of green I used as an example seems to jump out more than most colors I've seen.

Right. Leaps right up into your retinas and pulls your brain through your nose. I'll try to remember next time around.

Then what's the point of me attempting to counter them individually?

Say how 1) they are bad reasons, and should never even be considered among the reasons any character should be in the game, or 2) How they don't apply to Midna.

Your opinion is pretty close minded. So what if a character "can't fight"? If the developers where bound by such rules we would have a very crappy game.

In my opinion, that's what made Melee crappy. You've got a bunch of fruity characters with mallets and bacon beating the crap out of bounty hunters, swordsmen, and immortal plumbers.

Then those people aren't true gamers. A true gamer values gameplay above all else. If there was a game called super happy homo fun land if the gameplay was good then it would still sell because the core of a game is the gameplay. Story graphics and all that other stuff are nice to have but if they don't have the gameplay then those games won't be very good.

Well, I play games for the story. Always have, always will. Unless the game isn't story-based. RTSs I'll play for gameplay, but Adventure, FPS, and RPGs I play purely to escape this reality and sub in one concocted by someone else.

One of the main problems TP had was it was too easy but that still doesn't excuse Midna not at least telling me the monsters **** name.

You're mad at Midna because she's from the Twilight Realm and there's no possible way she'd know anything more about Link's world than you do? Maybe you should pay more attention to the story, or else you'll get nothing out of it. And that would be a shame, because for once in LoZ history TP had an excellent one.

Navi and Tatl are much more helpful. I kinda like knowing the name of my enemy don't you?

Actually, I don't care. When I talk about games, I talk about their fundamentals like we're doing now. No need to know what a Darknut or Moblin or whatever is there. And my fanfics generally turn up more original than was originally intended O_o .

I wasn't aiming that at anyone in particular. I was mostly talking about my past experiences with Midna fans. You are actually one of the better Midna fans and I'm sorry we got off on the wrong foot.

I'm glad we can get along without holding grudges . I hope we can continue to work out our differences peacefully .

How could you possibly find being left to die funny? She abondoned you like a cheap *****. That moment alone should have made her a very hated character.

I dunno, I just did. But if it takes you a while to get out of the building, Midna does get worried (says something like "Will you hurry up? Dig your way out, or else...ugh, I don't even want to think about it!"). Some people take it as one of the first parts of the story where she shows a bit of concern for Link.

To everyone else: If you're interested in solo Midna, I wrote up a moveset a bit ago. Gimme a minute and I'll look for it. You're probably sick of Numa and me going at it .

EDIT: I found it! I wrote it a while ago, so if something I say is stupid or incorrect...well, live with it. Can't be that bad, it's just a moveset .

BASIC ATTACKS

A - Midna cuffs an opponent at close distance. Low damage, and leaves Midna open for attack. Best used to catch the opponent off-guard and follow up with a stronger attack.

Forward A - A stronger backhand. Slightly more powerful than the A attack, but also a bit slower. Similar applications.

Dash A - Midna flies at her opponent through mid-air. Strikes at a low point, giving a high trajectory. Can even throw your opponent behind you.

Up A - Midna kicks an enemy straight upwards. Good for juggling.

Down A - A sweep attack. Longer cool down than other characters', but also makes the opponent flinch (think Zelda's)

Aerial a - Midna spins in mid-air. Very weak, but the instant the button is pressed she radiates an amount of Dark energy which can deal fairly heavy damage.

Aerial Forward A - A meteor attack. Midna slaps her opponent on a forward/down trajectory.

Aerial Back A - Midna kicks out with her tiny legs. Usually comparatively weak, but like the base aerial A can deal good damage if it hits at the right moment.

Aerial Up A - That helmet doesn't just look heavy!

Aerial down A - Another meteor. Midna kicks downwards, and with proper timing can send her unlucky enemy to the bottom of the screen.

SMASH Forward A - The Fused Shadow utilizes Midna's 'hair' to obliterate an opponent at good range.

SMASH Up A - A combo. Midna first strikes her opponent to above head level, then attacks with a blow of her headgear.

SMASH Down A - The power of the Twili draws opponents within range to the epicenter beneath Midna and blasts them away.

SPECIAL ATTACKS

B - An instantaneous, almost invisible burst of Twilight energy. Medium-long range (would cross about half of Final Destination). Deals fair damage and sends the opponent back at a slightly lower angle. Has long cool down (about a second).

Up B - Purely recovery. Midna condenses into bubbles of liquid which can be guided short distances.

Down B - The 'Wolf' attack . Held down, it encompasses enemies in the field, slowing them slightly. When released, Midna quickly attacks each of the enemies for high damage and medium power.

Forward B - Similar to Zelda's. Midna forms a ball of crackling Twilight energy which can be guided to violently dispel at the desired point.

THROWS: Midna would be the first character to be announced since the original Smash Bros to have a ranged grab. This grab would be slow to use, but slightly more powerful compared to those of Samus, Yoshi, and Link.

FINAL SMASH: Midna becomes fully possessed by the Fused Shadows...and anyone who's beaten Twilight Princess knows what happens.

 

[Chiroz]

I don't think the Mother analogy fits. Mother has a new main character in every game so it makes sense to choose the most recent one (Lucas) but if that's true why was Ness in 64 and melee? I believe I heard somewhere it had something to do with Ness's game being international and Mother 3 not being out yet but I could be wrong.

Melee was rushed, and Mother 3 was delayed so at the end Sakurai, with the very little time he had to decide, decided that he would stick to Ness for as to not spoil Lucas, or something of that sort.

Why exactly does Tingle not count? SK has been in 3 games BTW all the same skull kid. What do you mean vague characters?

Ummm, Tingle, its a joke. I mean its Tingle!

Skull Kid has been in 3 games yes, but in OoT he did basically nothing important. Anyways he is not that vague of a character, but Midna in 1 game actually got a lot more attention and had her character a lot more developed than Skull Kid in all 3

How do you get bad taste in story from me making fun of Midna's personality?

Because if you have played previous Zelda games, and not noticed that there is nobody even like Midna before, well then you must be blind, depth and all kinds of other stuff.

A friend of mine made a thread about this on another Zelda forum. His entire argument was destroyed by one post. I'll quote it here.



Midna has her importance I'll give you that but it's nowhere near Link's.

You do realize what you quoted kills your whole argument. I mean you quoted something to attack someone elses argument when it completely kills yours... Read it!

Do I really have to? name one point in TP that is as sad as the Deku crying for his son.

Depthness: complexity or obscurity

Gotten from the same LINK you gave me, yes it does have Emotional Feeling in one, but if you read the example, that is emotional depthness, as in HOW SAD you are, not HOW DEEP the game is... Truly you are mistaking both of them, as I alredy stated before.

You missed my point completely. Just because you haven't heard of something does not mean it doesn't exist or it is scarce.

And just because you have heard it from 5 people doesn't mean EVERYONE wants it. I mean seriously how many people could you have "heard" say it, considering most forums you might spend your day in, and maybe your friends or anything I would say not that many. What makes you think those people amount to millions?

Funny how you kill your own statements.

Then those people aren't true gamers. A true gamer values gameplay above all else. If there was a game called super happy homo fun land if the gameplay was good then it would still sell because the core of a game is the gameplay. Story graphics and all that other stuff are nice to have but if they don't have the gameplay then those games won't be very good.

Game starts, you see Young Link, you can move around the world, you have all MM weapons + OoT weapons + TP weapons, including all variations of arrows, boomerangs, and obviously Epona and different bottle liquors.

There is one dungeon with a White bearded, blue eyed mage as a boss, and some random minions.




Nice, I bet you would love this game, every single fight is new, puzzles are new, even the random bad guys are new, you got all weapons, best Zelda ever right? I mean I just made the best game!

One of the main problems TP had was it was too easy but that still doesn't excuse Midna not at least telling me the monsters **** name.



Navi and Tatl are much more helpful. I kinda like knowing the name of my enemy don't you?

No because as you previously stated, it makes the game "too easy". I don't like Navi or Tatl telling me how to fight anything, it annoys me they always want to tell me. Why would you say its too easy then jump into an argument of how "hard" Midna made it by not being helpful.

How could you possibly find being left to die funny? She abondoned you like a cheap *****. That moment alone should have made her a very hated character.

LOL, why? I mean thats really not that much. You love Tatl, and at the start he hated you, didn't he? I need to play MM again, haven't played it in a while

 

[Chiroz]

I hate it when people put words in my mouth. There is a difference from a sidekick who is important to the franchise (Luigi and Diddy) and a sidekick who is from one game in a huge franchise. If we add Midna we are saying that she is better than all the other one off sidekicks which would be biased.

Now read my next sentence... Oooooh PHYchic... Well anyways I was just stating that Brawl isn't based on who is the main character/villain...

She is a fairly important character to TP. That's only one game in a huge franchise. Sure you could argue that brawl is heavily influenced by TP but TP isn't the only Zelda style in the game (There is a cell shaded Tingle trophy).

So? Sheik is not even *fairly* important in her game, and she is only in one game and there are chances she might come back for a second game!!! So this argument is no good for Brawl.

Not this crap again. I've seen people make this ridiculous claim countless times and I'm sick of it. Midna is the helper character in TP and that's all she is. Had Zant killed her during his coup of the twilight realm Link would still have to go on his adventure to save Hyrule (although it would be a hell of alot different).



The story of TP revolves around Link's quest not Midna's. I don't know where people are getting this stuff from.

You killed this argument in your next post.

You suck if you think TP was better than MM in any way. TP was an overhyped average game. MM on the other hand was an overlooked gem. Had it been released alot longer after OoT it would have been much more accepted. I still find myself replaying all the great sidequests and bosses in that game. The story of TP was average at best but MM had a long and deep story that was also emotional.

You seem to think the longer a game is delayed the less people will expect from it. Its the exact opposite, lets take something you can understand it with. Had Brawl been released with the Wii, with what we know today, would you accept it? Only 22 characters? 18 stages? That sort of thing? Now had it been released February 10th, with exactly what we know today (that being the same, but after 1 year and a half of delaying) would u have been happier? NO GO**** IT, YOU WOULDA BEEN PISSED.

You obviously have no idea what depth means.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/depth

Nice one giving me a quote to show you you are wrong with

Depthness: complexity or obscurity

Now Emotional Depthness is Depthness MIXED into emotions, which is not what we are discussing as a game has no emotions, the player playing it does.

You are one human being in a population of over 6 billion. What you have heard or not heard does not mean anything.

Nice one killing your own argument, yet again

Those people are whats called *******es. If MM had not been released in the shadow of OoT then it would be much more popular than it is. I bet those people didn't even give it a chance.

No its the other way around, a game being released years later, after wanted for years and years by MANY MANY FANS, overhyped and even overshowed has a MUCH harder time accomplishing a good record, because once it has 1 mistake, then boom, they start to say its not as good as the original. And it has to fill shoes from not only OoT to OoT fans, but for a MM fan like you it also has to fill MM shoes, which for you, you think it did not...

See how its harder for TP?

 

[Numa Dude]

Well, that's in Smash Boards. Go to a Midna Fan Club, or the MFF or something like that. You can seriously run in there, start swearing your *** off and talking about how badly Midna sucks, and really they'll just go "Well, you're not in the right place. Most people here would disagree with you, but enjoy your stay all the same. Oh, and stop flaming, otherwise you might make someone mad." And that's no exaggeration. And apology accepted . I knew there was an intelligent human being in there somewhere.

I have been waiting so long to bust out this pic.

Thanks for accepting my apology but I think you put a little to much faith in people on the internet.

Yeah, EarthBound is the only one of the three that made it to the west (and there, it didn't do terribly well until a lot later). However, there are recurring characters in the game. The Flying Men, for instance. The protagonist changes, but many of the plot points, places, and secondary characters remain.

You said it yourself the SECONDARY characters remain. Major characters>Minor characters.

I just enjoy bashing Tingle, but really you can't tell me he's one of your favs for Brawl. Half the world hates him, and it happens to be the half of the world that devs are paying attention to (or should be, since it's a faster growing market).

I used to be a very hardcore Tingle hater but that stemed from my incredible hate of two particular Tingle supporters who will go unnamed. After they stopped coming on here and I saw one of my friends supporting Tingle I saw the error of my ways and switched to Tingle support although you are right, Tingle is not one of my faves for brawl (that honor goes to the Happy Mask Salesman). But I dissagree about half the world hating him. In fact his game is scheduled to be released both in Europe and America.

And do I really have to state examples? The one-game wonders? Unlocalized franchises? Series that are all but forgotten? Ness, G&W, IC, Pichu, Sheik, Marth, Roy...characters that don't have as large of an audience as competitors, but made it in all the same due to their uniqueness and value for future games.

All of those characters are either protagonists, clones or shameless advertisement. Completely different from Midna. Don't even bring up Shiek I am tired of explaining the simple concept of Shiek being Zelda.

Nintendo totally OD'd on Midna's personality in TP. People loved it, people complained about it, but no one denied that it was the driving force of the game. At face value, her actions speak nothing for her uniqueness, but it's how it's played out. She moves so smoothly from being arrogant, devilish, and rude to an enlightened albeit mysterious usurped princess that you might not even notice the change until you replay the game. Unlike other characters before her that change due to one event, MDH wasn't the point where she started to shed her selfishness. There were tiny hints towards it throughout the first three temples. It was brilliantly played out, but somehow you can't see it, which would be a little like reading Homer's bit about the many-headed sea beast Scylla tearing up Odysseus's crew, and saying, "This is boring." Which people do as well, unfortunately.

I'm not denying Midna has personality. What I'm saying is that it's not anywhere near as original as people think. Her personality to me looks like a carbon copy of the MM fairys just more developed. They both start out using Link but slowly they start to want to help him save the world. It's exactly the same, the presentation was simply different.

And? Did I say that Link was unnecessary? No, I said that Midna was more central to the plot.

Midna is not more central to the plot. The plot centers around Link and his quest to save Hyrule from the expanse of the Twili realm. Midna and all her character development are just a subplot.

Proof, please. Just because the player takes the role of Link doesn't make him the only main character. In many stories there are multiple protagonists; I'm saying that this is one of those cases, and that while Link is the player and central in the game, Midna was significantly more developed and thus is the protagonist of the story.

Proof? How about the fact he was chosen by the gods to save Hyrule? Since Midna helped Link on his quest that makes her a sidekick not a full blown protagonist.

Plot-wise, beyond Link's. Yeah, they're both each other's heroes. Very magical. Midna turns around and helps Link care for and free his world, while Link follows Midna into the Twilight Realm to help her reclaim her broken kingdom. However, if you were to write out the story of Twilight Princess on paper, you'd be using Midna's name much more than Link's. That, I can guarantee you.

I'm almost tempted to actually attempt that but it would take far too much time to write down the story of a 20 hour game.

Hmm. In chronological order: Colin being rescued

How is that sad? I for one was happy at that point.

Colin's mother finding out he's still alive

That scene was optional and again that was more a happy scene than anything.

Midna's sacrifice,

Didn't make me sad at all since I hate her but even if I didn't that would be more of an angry scene than anything.

Zelda's subsequent sacrifice,

That seemed more like a "wtf is going on" scene to me.

Midna's supposed death,

Wouldn't that be the same as her sacrifice?

and Midna's departure.

Going to live the leisurly life of a queen doesn't seem all that sad to me.

Those are all the bits I've heard people say they cried over.

Those people are probably teenage girls.

Raykz, I would respond to you, but your posts are basically you saying I'm wrong with no evidence so I won't even bother.

 

[ZenJestr]

@Raykz: Tatl's a girl...

EDIT: I think your bias towards MM is getting in your way....trust me I like MM, in fact I love it...however, Deku Butler crying over his son doesnt make MM the nectar of god's balls...

 

[Numa Dude]

@Raykz: Tatl's a girl...

EDIT: I think your bias towards MM is getting in your way....trust me I like MM, in fact I love it...however, Deku Butler crying over his son doesnt make MM the nectar of god's balls...

No, but it makes for some **** good story.

 

[ZenJestr]

so TP doesnt fit your standards because the same emotions you felt in 2000 or whenever you beat MM at the END of the game were not felt with TP...

really if you think that a plant shedding tears over a plant is the best thing about MM then why do you worship it so?

 

[Numa Dude]

so TP doesnt fit your standards because the same emotions you felt in 2000 or whenever you beat MM at the END of the game were not felt with TP...

really if you think that a plant shedding tears over a plant is the best thing about MM then why do you worship it so?

I'd thank you to stop putting words in my mouth. I like MM for many reasons besides the story so stop being such an *** just because I'm not obbsesed with your precious TP.

 

[Chiroz]

Raykz, I would respond to you, but your posts are basically you saying I'm wrong with no evidence so I won't even bother.

So wait, me actually quoting a dictionary, or giving you ACTUAL examples is just saying you are wrong with no evidence? WOW. BTW I had actually written a lot more, basically explaining HOW you killed your own arguments, (as an edit) but the site didn't edit it, and I don't want to write it again.


Anyways, if I were to go by your standards, the best Zelda game evern for me would be TLoZ: Link's Awakening, played it when I was 9, and the scene at the end is 100x sadder than the deku butler. EVERYONE you knew in the game was actually a dream, alive while the fish slept, and once awoken, they all dissapeared. If I say it like this it doesn't sound that sad, have you played it? (If you have, you probably understand)




Also I just can't let this pass, but how can you say: "Someone who has appeared one game is" or "That's only one game in a huge franchise" then say Sheik = Zelda? Sheik has been Zelda for (QUOTE)*"That's only one game in a huge franchise"*(QUOTE), 1/10+ Zelda games, less than 7% of the time.

Is it that you are really biased? I mean do you hate TP that much?

Don't argue why Zelda is Sheik, or why Midna is this or that, argue with me why you would say Midna being in 1 game makes her unworthy and not an important character at all and how at the same time Sheik being Zelda for 1 game makes her godly.



Tatl is girl? XD. Navi is a boy though, right? (Although when I played it I saw him as a girl)

 

[HipsterKid]

Well, at least the inhumane-ness has gone away.
In all seriousness, I think there is one main reason why you guys can't seem to connect on a reason why Midna should or shouldn't be in Brawl.

I think Numa is more into the "WTF" part of the LoZ while Raykz and Yitik are more story type people. That's just on the basis of what I've read but that seems to be most likely.

Not one of you three is going to be convinced otherwise and you all have made your reasonable and valuable points but I think this is a situation where you're going to have to agree to disagree.

I think we can all agree on these terms.

1. Midna does have some chances of being in Brawl. There are some reasons that say she can('t) be in Brawl and there are some that only lightly influence it.
2. Majora's Mask and Twilight Princess are good in their own individual ways. One is more plot wise and the other is more of a twist.
3. We cannot argue over depth because we are all different people with different emotions and what one may consider deep is something another may laugh at.

As long as everyone can agree to those terms, we can stop all this bitter arguing and take it to a more friendly and a lot shorter debate. It's horrible to see a page full of quotes and back-sass.

 

[chaos_Leader]

Showcae theory

I have brought this theory up in other threads before.

Super Smash Brothers games are a showcase of the latest and greatest of the Nintendo franchises, with a few retro classics thrown in. That means the most recognized figures of recent Nintendo games (and now 3rd parties) come out and show each-other what they're made of. LoZ MM is a great game, I will not dispute it. LoZ TP is also a great game. Like it or not, Midna played an important role in TP, similar to Sheik/Zelda in OoT before, They had different roles, but they were still an integral part of their respected games' storyline. With Link, Zelda/(Sheik?), and very likely Ganondorf, who else would you add to represent the latest installment of the LoZ series? after the above prominent figures, the first to come to the mind's of the majority is Midna. Its not all about uniqueness of a potential character, or their moveset, developers are clever enough to get around that, Its more about showcasing the latest and greatest of the most prominent Nintendo franchises. Don't get me wrong, Majora's Mask and Wind Waker are among my all-time favorites of LoZ games, I simply think the developers are gearing more toward the more recent additions of the franchises. and MM isn't quite old enough to be considered retro. like-it or hate-it, Midna is the most logical addition after Link, Zelda and Ganondorf. whether or not she comes with WolfLnk is another debate.

This bit of logical reasoning is brought to you by your's truly:

 

[Yitik]

Whoa. I gots a lots t'reply to.

I have been waiting so long to bust out this pic.

Oh, so you were banned. You must really have pressed their buttons, then. I guess insult her once, shame on you. Insult her twice...you won't insult her again there .

Thanks for accepting my apology but I think you put a little to much faith in people on the internet.

I've been speaking with people online for almost half my life. I'm fully aware that users lie, and I always keep this in mind and ensure that when quoting someone I'm only quoting fact. Such is the magic of Photobucket.

You said it yourself the SECONDARY characters remain. Major characters>Minor characters.

Yes. And Midna is a major character compared to certain...others who have made it into Smash Bros. I've already given my reasons and examples.

I used to be a very hardcore Tingle hater but that stemed from my incredible hate of two particular Tingle supporters who will go unnamed. After they stopped coming on here and I saw one of my friends supporting Tingle I saw the error of my ways and switched to Tingle support although you are right, Tingle is not one of my faves for brawl (that honor goes to the Happy Mask Salesman). But I dissagree about half the world hating him. In fact his game is scheduled to be released both in Europe and America.

The hardcore Zelda fans will buy it, and maybe the dozen or so Tingle fans (I kid the Tingle fans; please don't smile at me ) in the west. Reps from Nintendo have said themselves that Tingle is immensely popular in Japan, but is despised in the west. The number of Japanese gamers are going down, while the number of western gamers are going up. The truth is in the math.

All of those characters are either protagonists, clones or shameless advertisement. Completely different from Midna. Don't even bring up Shiek I am tired of explaining the simple concept of Shiek being Zelda.

Sheik is Zelda for a single game. He only appears in OoT. Zelda could have done perfectly fine on her own, but Nintendo decided to add a little flair. Adding Midna would be adding a similar flair. And Midna is the protagonist of the story of the single game she was in.

I'm not denying Midna has personality. What I'm saying is that it's not anywhere near as original as people think. Her personality to me looks like a carbon copy of the MM fairys just more developed. They both start out using Link but slowly they start to want to help him save the world. It's exactly the same, the presentation was simply different.

Incredibly different. She wasn't just there out of obligation, then there out of friendship. She really did have a believable, dynamic character. Look, mate, if you want proof, Google "Tatl Fan" then "Midna Fan". Subtract and show as a reduced ratio.

Midna is not more central to the plot. The plot centers around Link and his quest to save Hyrule from the expanse of the Twili realm. Midna and all her character development are just a subplot.

Hmm. If that were true, the game would be only about a quarter the length. Let's take out all the bits where we're working exclusively for Midna. Subtract the first three dungeons, since we're just getting the Fused Shadows (manipulated rather maliciously, albeit). Take out everything after Midna's Desperate Hour, since after that all the Twilight was gone from Hyrule and we were never threatened by its return (the only time it came back, it was quickly stifled). So we're left with...Link searching for the kids, deciding to find a way to combat the Twilight, then returning to Ordon once everything seems hunky-dory. Wait, let's look at the real plot of TP: Link runs off to save kids. Link meets Midna. Midna informs Link of the plague over his world, and in return for her help wants him to recover the Fused Shadows for her. All that's done. Midna shows her willingness to sacrifice herself for the well-beings of both Link and Zelda. Midna asks Link to come with her into the Twilight Realm to defeat the usurper Zant (still no sign of him trying to reclaim Hyrule, so no threat there or mentioned in dialog). They do what it takes to get there and everything. In the end, what do we see? Link's mission, the kids returned safely home and the blightless fields of Hyrule? Yeah, while credits role over. But that interlude, that last bit of story and dialog we see is all about Midna too. I think it's safe to say that the storyline followed her problems more than Link's.

Proof? How about the fact he was chosen by the gods to save Hyrule? Since Midna helped Link on his quest that makes her a sidekick not a full blown protagonist.

They helped each other, but in the end Link, being the hero he is, helped her more as explained above. Link is Chosen of the Gods because that endows the player with the strength they will need, not necessarily for Link's quest though. He's a hero, not Rambo. Just because he's strong and able does not mean the story revolves around him.

I'm almost tempted to actually attempt that but it would take far too much time to write down the story of a 20 hour game.

I just did it for you.

How is that sad? I for one was happy at that point.

Well, emotional. I for one would not have been surprised if he was dead, but tears come in more forms than just those of sadness.[/b]

That scene was optional and again that was more a happy scene than anything.

I meant in light of her being convinced he was dead.

Didn't make me sad at all since I hate her but even if I didn't that would be more of an angry scene than anything.

Well, most people were angry afterwards. Think: someone stabs your buddy. Are you going to waste time chasing after the villain? No, your primary concern is that your buddy survives.

That seemed more like a "wtf is going on" scene to me.

"Zelda, you have given me all that you possibly could, although I did not want it," to an all but empty room, and with that she and her cursed partner leave quietly while the last echoes of the music die. One sacrifice saved in place of another. It's still more sad than a character crying over a body he was certain was dead for years anyway, in this one's opinion.

Wouldn't that be the same as her sacrifice?

No. I'm talking near the end of the game. We're left with the idea that Midna is in control of the situation, and then the castle is shivered to pile of rubble to reveal the revived King of Evil rearing on his horse as the sun dips below the horizon, brandishing his latest kill trophy.

Going to live the leisurly life of a queen doesn't seem all that sad to me.

Leisurely life? She's going to rebuild a crumbled kingdom; one that in retrospect may have lost all respect for her. And what about Link?

Those people are probably teenage girls.

No. A lot of them are male adults. Emotion is a gift, and I encourage people of all ages and both genders to use them. These guys didn't need it, and I actually admire them for it.

Raykz, I would respond to you, but your posts are basically you saying I'm wrong with no evidence so I won't even bother.

No, but it makes for some **** good story.

You gonna explain the story? A plantlike servant crying over his long-dead son does not sound too sad to me, at least for a video game. It just reminds me of Koops in Hooktail Castle.

Also I just can't let this pass, but how can you say: "Someone who has appeared one game is" or "That's only one game in a huge franchise" then say Sheik = Zelda? Sheik has been Zelda for (QUOTE)*"That's only one game in a huge franchise"*(QUOTE), 1/10+ Zelda games, less than 7% of the time.

Is it that you are really biased? I mean do you hate TP that much?

Don't argue why Zelda is Sheik, or why Midna is this or that, argue with me why you would say Midna being in 1 game makes her unworthy and not an important character at all and how at the same time Sheik being Zelda for 1 game makes her godly.

Quote For Truth, mate. And I always thought that both Navi and Tatl were female.[/b]

Well, at least the inhumane-ness has gone away.
In all seriousness, I think there is one main reason why you guys can't seem to connect on a reason why Midna should or shouldn't be in Brawl.

Well, I just like arguing about pointless stuff . It's an excellent stress reliever.

I think Numa is more into the "WTF" part of the LoZ while Raykz and Yitik are more story type people. That's just on the basis of what I've read but that seems to be most likely.

Well, you have my signature. I find the TP-lovers love games for story, while the OoT and MM fans are all about gameplay. WW fans are somewhere around the middle.

Not one of you three is going to be convinced otherwise and you all have made your reasonable and valuable points but I think this is a situation where you're going to have to agree to disagree.

Or we could keep arguing.

I think we can all agree on these terms.

1. Midna does have some chances of being in Brawl. There are some reasons that say she can('t) be in Brawl and there are some that only lightly influence it.

But which side is greater? WE MUST KNOW! Or at least pretend that we do.

2. Majora's Mask and Twilight Princess are good in their own individual ways. One is more plot wise and the other is more of a twist.

I understand that, and I only stated that I prefer TP over MM for its story. I've never played it, but I'm sure the gameplay is better.

3. We cannot argue over depth because we are all different people with different emotions and what one may consider deep is something another may laugh at.

But one is still deeper than the other, and that's determined by the community and not the individual.

As long as everyone can agree to those terms, we can stop all this bitter arguing and take it to a more friendly and a lot shorter debate. It's horrible to see a page full of quotes and back-sass.

My back-sass is more intelligent, though.

I have brought this theory up in other threads before.

Super Smash Brothers games are a showcase of the latest and greatest of the Nintendo franchises, with a few retro classics thrown in. That means the most recognized figures of recent Nintendo games (and now 3rd parties) come out and show each-other what they're made of. LoZ MM is a great game, I will not dispute it. LoZ TP is also a great game. Like it or not, Midna played an important role in TP, similar to Sheik/Zelda in OoT before, They had different roles, but they were still an integral part of their respected games' storyline. With Link, Zelda/(Sheik?), and very likely Ganondorf, who else would you add to represent the latest installment of the LoZ series? after the above prominent figures, the first to come to the mind's of the majority is Midna. Its not all about uniqueness of a potential character, or their moveset, developers are clever enough to get around that, Its more about showcasing the latest and greatest of the most prominent Nintendo franchises. Don't get me wrong, Majora's Mask and Wind Waker are among my all-time favorites of LoZ games, I simply think the developers are gearing more toward the more recent additions of the franchises. and MM isn't quite old enough to be considered retro. like-it or hate-it, Midna is the most logical addition after Link, Zelda and Ganondorf. whether or not she comes with WolfLnk is another debate.

This bit of logical reasoning is brought to you by your's truly:

You know what, mate, I think I agree with you. Yeah, you support Midna, but also what you say makes sense when we look at the lineup for Brawl, and even Melee. Lucas and the Fire Emblem peeps are prime examples.

 

[Numa Dude]

Well, at least the inhumane-ness has gone away.
In all seriousness, I think there is one main reason why you guys can't seem to connect on a reason why Midna should or shouldn't be in Brawl.

I think Numa is more into the "WTF" part of the LoZ while Raykz and Yitik are more story type people. That's just on the basis of what I've read but that seems to be most likely.

Not one of you three is going to be convinced otherwise and you all have made your reasonable and valuable points but I think this is a situation where you're going to have to agree to disagree.

I think we can all agree on these terms.

1. Midna does have some chances of being in Brawl. There are some reasons that say she can('t) be in Brawl and there are some that only lightly influence it.
2. Majora's Mask and Twilight Princess are good in their own individual ways. One is more plot wise and the other is more of a twist.
3. We cannot argue over depth because we are all different people with different emotions and what one may consider deep is something another may laugh at.

As long as everyone can agree to those terms, we can stop all this bitter arguing and take it to a more friendly and a lot shorter debate. It's horrible to see a page full of quotes and back-sass.

I love you.

Oh, so you were banned. You must really have pressed their buttons, then. I guess insult her once, shame on you. Insult her twice...you won't insult her again there .

That's not me it's my friend Mr. Goron. If you look closley you can see that he isn't even logged in and he is still banned.

Yes. And Midna is a major character compared to certain...others who have made it into Smash Bros. I've already given my reasons and examples.

I dissagree. All the characters you seem to think are less major than Midna are either retroes (who are all major characters in their respective games) clones (put in due to time constraints) or shameless advertisement (Roy was forced in against Sakurais wishes).

The hardcore Zelda fans will buy it, and maybe the dozen or so Tingle fans (I kid the Tingle fans; please don't smile at me ) in the west. Reps from Nintendo have said themselves that Tingle is immensely popular in Japan, but is despised in the west. The number of Japanese gamers are going down, while the number of western gamers are going up. The truth is in the math.

I'd like to know where you got the idea the Japanese market is becoming smaller.

Sheik is Zelda for a single game. He only appears in OoT. Zelda could have done perfectly fine on her own, but Nintendo decided to add a little flair. Adding Midna would be adding a similar flair. And Midna is the protagonist of the story of the single game she was in.

SHE (You see a male reproductive organ in that tight ninja suit?) is still Zelda no matter how you spin it. SHE was added in to give Zelda's moveset some uniqueness. Midna is not part of a more important character so they are incompareable.

Incredibly different. She wasn't just there out of obligation, then there out of friendship. She really did have a believable, dynamic character. Look, mate, if you want proof, Google "Tatl Fan" then "Midna Fan". Subtract and show as a reduced ratio.

I don't understand where you are getting at. The point I was making was that Midna and Tatl have the same personality just one is more developed. How does a google search disprove this?

Hmm. If that were true, the game would be only about a quarter the length. Let's take out all the bits where we're working exclusively for Midna. Subtract the first three dungeons, since we're just getting the Fused Shadows (manipulated rather maliciously, albeit). Take out everything after Midna's Desperate Hour, since after that all the Twilight was gone from Hyrule and we were never threatened by its return (the only time it came back, it was quickly stifled). So we're left with...Link searching for the kids, deciding to find a way to combat the Twilight, then returning to Ordon once everything seems hunky-dory. Wait, let's look at the real plot of TP: Link runs off to save kids. Link meets Midna. Midna informs Link of the plague over his world, and in return for her help wants him to recover the Fused Shadows for her. All that's done. Midna shows her willingness to sacrifice herself for the well-beings of both Link and Zelda. Midna asks Link to come with her into the Twilight Realm to defeat the usurper Zant (still no sign of him trying to reclaim Hyrule, so no threat there or mentioned in dialog). They do what it takes to get there and everything. In the end, what do we see? Link's mission, the kids returned safely home and the blightless fields of Hyrule? Yeah, while credits role over. But that interlude, that last bit of story and dialog we see is all about Midna too. I think it's safe to say that the storyline followed her problems more than Link's.

You're missing a big piece of the puzzle here and that is Ganon. He was back in Hyrule and Link would have still needed to beat him. Link would have most likely still had to fight Zant too since Zant was one of Ganon's most loyal minions.

They helped each other, but in the end Link, being the hero he is, helped her more as explained above. Link is Chosen of the Gods because that endows the player with the strength they will need, not necessarily for Link's quest though. He's a hero, not Rambo. Just because he's strong and able does not mean the story revolves around him.

Ironically enough I once again have a quote for this by my friend copperpot.

But, Twilight Princess is more of a compilation of two storylines. On one side, we have Midna trying to reclaim her original self and take her rightful place as leader of the Twili. On the other, we have the classic battle over the triforce between Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf. In terms of relevence, the classic story would take precedence over Midna's story, but gameplay-wise, it is her story that drives the game and, because of this, causes the player to view her story as more important.

Throughout the series, Link is destined to rise up and defeat Ganondorf, so it really doesn't matter how he gets to that point. This alone debunks the claim that any minor character in the Zelda story has any real significance to the series itself.

I agree with everything this guy says.

I just did it for you.

zee oh em gee.

Well, emotional. I for one would not have been surprised if he was dead, but tears come in more forms than just those of sadness.

I suppose that is an acceptable anwser then.

I meant in light of her being convinced he was dead.

Now that I don't remember. I'll have to go back and see that again unless you have a youtube link or something.

Well, most people were angry afterwards. Think: someone stabs your buddy. Are you going to waste time chasing after the villain? No, your primary concern is that your buddy survives.

But that analogy doesn't fit when the bad guy is coming after you next. At that point you would be primarily concerned with both saving yourself and avenging your buddy.

"Zelda, you have given me all that you possibly could, although I did not want it," to an all but empty room, and with that she and her cursed partner leave quietly while the last echoes of the music die. One sacrifice saved in place of another. It's still more sad than a character crying over a body he was certain was dead for years anyway, in this one's opinion.

I dissagree. You wouldn't understand this unless you where to put yourself in that Deku's shoes. After being missing for years and just recently finding someone who reminds you of your lost son you find him dead in a desolate area. This is your only son, this dead creature was made from you. It was your baby. The pain of a parent losing an only child is much more sad than Zelda giving Midna her lifeforce. I'll admit that the parents in ordons sadness came close but there was still hope there children where alive. The deku butler was there looking at his dead child. There was no hope, his baby was simply dead and there was no way to bring him back.

No. I'm talking near the end of the game. We're left with the idea that Midna is in control of the situation, and then the castle is shivered to pile of rubble to reveal the revived King of Evil rearing on his horse as the sun dips below the horizon, brandishing his latest kill trophy.

I still believe that would be more of an angry scene.

Leisurely life? She's going to rebuild a crumbled kingdom; one that in retrospect may have lost all respect for her. And what about Link?

Didn't really take all that into consideration.

You gonna explain the story? A plantlike servant crying over his long-dead son does not sound too sad to me, at least for a video game. It just reminds me of Koops in Hooktail Castle.

You obviously can't understand the pain of losing an only child.

I have brought this theory up in other threads before.

Super Smash Brothers games are a showcase of the latest and greatest of the Nintendo franchises, with a few retro classics thrown in. That means the most recognized figures of recent Nintendo games (and now 3rd parties) come out and show each-other what they're made of. LoZ MM is a great game, I will not dispute it. LoZ TP is also a great game. Like it or not, Midna played an important role in TP, similar to Sheik/Zelda in OoT before, They had different roles, but they were still an integral part of their respected games' storyline. With Link, Zelda/(Sheik?), and very likely Ganondorf, who else would you add to represent the latest installment of the LoZ series? after the above prominent figures, the first to come to the mind's of the majority is Midna. Its not all about uniqueness of a potential character, or their moveset, developers are clever enough to get around that, Its more about showcasing the latest and greatest of the most prominent Nintendo franchises. Don't get me wrong, Majora's Mask and Wind Waker are among my all-time favorites of LoZ games, I simply think the developers are gearing more toward the more recent additions of the franchises. and MM isn't quite old enough to be considered retro. like-it or hate-it, Midna is the most logical addition after Link, Zelda and Ganondorf. whether or not she comes with WolfLnk is another debate.

This theory sucks for one reason. We do not know what Sakurai considers retro, therefore saying X thing isn't retro is a false statement. For all we know he could very well consider 64 retro or even Gamecube. Since we don't know we can't rule out any past character as retro.

Lucas and the Fire Emblem peeps are prime examples.

Except that their series has a new protagonist every game which is a hell of alot different from franchises like Zelda in which all the most important characters recur.

Raykz I'm only quoting you because I'm tired of people saying this idiotic crap.

Also I just can't let this pass, but how can you say: "Someone who has appeared one game is" or "That's only one game in a huge franchise" then say Sheik = Zelda? Sheik has been Zelda for (QUOTE)*"That's only one game in a huge franchise"*(QUOTE), 1/10+ Zelda games, less than 7% of the time.

The Zelda in smash is from all the games not just the one her model is from. She is seen using her OoT spells from melee so Sakurai obviously doesn't care how old moves are. Since Shiek is a unique part of Zelda's moveset she will most likely come back.

Is it that you are really biased? I mean do you hate TP that much?

I'm tired of you idiots putting words in my mouth. I like TP, I just find it inferior to MM. My opinion on both games has no effect on my opinion of Midna so stop acting like they are connected.

Don't argue why Zelda is Sheik, or why Midna is this or that, argue with me why you would say Midna being in 1 game makes her unworthy and not an important character at all and how at the same time Sheik being Zelda for 1 game makes her godly.

Zelda and Shiek are one person and since the devs obviously don't care about move age she is completely different from Midna a whole new character who is most likely a one-off in a huge franchise with much more important and unique (I'm looking at you Tingle) characters.

 

[Black/Light]

. . . .Im still very confused. If you hate Midna soo much than why do you waste your time posting huge post about her on her thread? Why the hell would you even go to a Midna fan-site to bash her and get banned?

It's like some. . . KKK member going to a African American web-site to yell about Obama being a bad choice. All your hate-ing time could be used on the MM thread to support MM. . . cause this is really getting boring.

And you MUST be smoking something if your thing Ting is more important and unique than Midna. . .

 

[Numa Dude]

. . . .Im still very confused. If you hate Midna soo much than why do you waste your time posting huge post about her on her thread? Why the hell would you even go to a Midna fan-site to bash her and get banned?

It's like some. . . KKK member going to a African American web-site to yell about Obama being a bad choice. All your hate-ing time could be used on the MM thread to support MM. . . cause this is really getting boring.

And you MUST be smoking something if your thing Ting is more important and unique than Midna. . .

1. I don't hate Midna, I just don't like her.
2. That wasn't me on that site.
3. HIS NAME IS SKULL KID!
4. YOUR MOM IS SMOKING SOMETHING!

 

[Black/Light]

1. I don't hate Midna, I just don't like her.
2. That wasn't me on that site.
3. HIS NAME IS SKULL KID!
4. YOUR MOM IS SMOKING SOMETHING!

1. Same thing. Your still spending alot of time on something you diss-like.
2. Oh, so you have lil Midna hating buddies to. . . and posted that pic for no reason.
3. Surrrreee, you just want SK and not MM SK even thou you just lovez MM to bits and think it's soo great. . .
4. Your momma smoked something. . . .3 months before you where born. (would explain some things. . )

 

[Yitik]

That's not me it's my friend Mr. Goron. If you look closley you can see that he isn't even logged in and he is still banned.

I think I know what they're using: it's called an IP ban. It attacks your IP address rather than your account, so you can't just create an alt. Useful little things. Every website should have them.

I dissagree. All the characters you seem to think are less major than Midna are either retroes (who are all major characters in their respective games) clones (put in due to time constraints) or shameless advertisement (Roy was forced in against Sakurais wishes).

Those retros were protagonists in their games, yes, but had no story and not a terribly wide fan base. The fact that a character is a clone doesn't change the fact that he's still in the game, which is the point here. And yes, shameless advertisement happens, but if the Melee team didn't want Roy in there, he wouldn't have been. You telling me that the Fire Emblem nerds blackmailed Sakurai or something?

I'd like to know where you got the idea the Japanese market is becoming smaller.

Google "gamer drift". It's in an interview.

SHE (You see a male reproductive organ in that tight ninja suit?) is still Zelda no matter how you spin it. SHE was added in to give Zelda's moveset some uniqueness. Midna is not part of a more important character so they are incompareable.

Zelda was masquerading as a man, but that's not important. We never find out that Sheik and Zelda are one in the same until near the end of OoT. Zelda fans don't think of her as Sheik. You don't see too much LinkxSheik fanart. You don't see anyone begging Nintendo to make Zelda turn into Sheik again in a sequel. The fact that they're the same person is just a plot point, and essentially in the eyes of gamers they are two distinct characters with different personalities, different motives, different appearance, skills, etc. Zelda could have made a fine character on her own, without a transformation since she is skilled magically and we do see this in the games, but because OoT was such a hit they decided to give the old fans a little taste of nostalgia. Remember when Melee came out, and how big of a surprise that was to a lot of people? Yeah, that's why. Just a little insight on how Ninty's brain works.

I don't understand where you are getting at. The point I was making was that Midna and Tatl have the same personality just one is more developed. How does a google search disprove this?

You said the presentation was different, which implies that the characters had the same personality just different stories, thus making them equals in terms of depth. If I was wrong in assuming this, you can retract your statement; the Google search was to prove that people were affected much more by Midna's personality than Tatl's.

You're missing a big piece of the puzzle here and that is Ganon. He was back in Hyrule and Link would have still needed to beat him. Link would have most likely still had to fight Zant too since Zant was one of Ganon's most loyal minions.

But if we're talking from this point of view, how would Link know Ganondorf's around? The people of Hyrule had no idea what was going on. If somehow Link discovers Ganondorf, and we have the same story of the Chosen One shambling around the ruins of Hyrule to fight the overlord and make things all better again...that still removes roughly two thirds of Twilight Princess's story.

Ironically enough I once again have a quote for this by my friend copperpot.

"But, Twilight Princess is more of a compilation of two storylines. On one side, we have Midna trying to reclaim her original self and take her rightful place as leader of the Twili. On the other, we have the classic battle over the triforce between Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf. In terms of relevence, the classic story would take precedence over Midna's story, but gameplay-wise, it is her story that drives the game and, because of this, causes the player to view her story as more important.

The 'classic battle' in Twilight Princess comprised of Link going to find his friends, meeting and aiding Midna, doing her dirty work for a little while and only in helping her with this do we realize (to our dismay) Ganondorf's found a way into the story. If the final boss is all that stands between Link's story and irrelevance after the first eight hours, that's not really a good thing.

Throughout the series, Link is destined to rise up and defeat Ganondorf, so it really doesn't matter how he gets to that point. This alone debunks the claim that any minor character in the Zelda story has any real significance to the series itself."

Twilight Princess is one game. Majora's Mask is another. A Link to the Past is yet another. You can't argue that because it's part of the same series that the protagonist will have the same prominent role as he did in all the others. Yes, Link fights Ganondorf, but the story would have been in essence the same if Ganondorf was never incorporated. However, I don't think I have to recall again what would would be left of TP's plot if Midna never showed up.

I suppose that is an acceptable anwser then.

We're making headway .

Now that I don't remember. I'll have to go back and see that again unless you have a youtube link or something.

Honestly, I don't either. But I know several people who supposedly cried over it. Don't worry about it if you're internet's still being stupid.

But that analogy doesn't fit when the bad guy is coming after you next. At that point you would be primarily concerned with both saving yourself and avenging your buddy.

Zant, uh, didn't come after you next. He left you with a dying Midna. And some really sweet keyboard music.

I dissagree. You wouldn't understand this unless you where to put yourself in that Deku's shoes. After being missing for years and just recently finding someone who reminds you of your lost son you find him dead in a desolate area. This is your only son, this dead creature was made from you. It was your baby. The pain of a parent losing an only child is much more sad than Zelda giving Midna her lifeforce. I'll admit that the parents in ordons sadness came close but there was still hope there children where alive. The deku butler was there looking at his dead child. There was no hope, his baby was simply dead and there was no way to bring him back.

I don't think that scene would have struck me as hard simply because the butler was convinced that his son was dead even before he saw the body.

I still believe that would be more of an angry scene.

Oh yeah, people were pissed. I was actually kind of in denial, but when the game didn't show anything after the horseback battle, then came an interesting mixture of sadness and thirst for revenge. Once again, whichever way you look at it, it was an emotional scene (and I actually forgot all about the emotional scene where it's discovered she's alive; the imagery was well-placed), and there's more powerful feelings out there than just sadness.

Didn't really take all that into consideration.

Really? Maybe it takes a fanboy . The horror on Link's face was stuck in my head for a little while, so I figured it was obvious. Sorry.

You obviously can't understand the pain of losing an only child.

No, I can't. This might sound cruel, but I think after years of wondering if my child's dead, alive, or lost and injured somewhere slowly dying of disease, malnutrition and loss of blood, I might even feel a little relieved behind the sad confirmation that he is dead. I'd know how he died, and that now that the trial is over I can slowly recover and move on with my life.

This theory sucks for one reason. We do not know what Sakurai considers retro, therefore saying X thing isn't retro is a false statement. For all we know he could very well consider 64 retro or even Gamecube. Since we don't know we can't rule out any past character as retro.

Well, you've used that word in your argument up there, mate. Now you say you don't have an exact definition for it? Retro is probably anything that's not being manufactured any more. GCNs are still being manufactured. N64 could be considered retro.

Except that their series has a new protagonist every game which is a hell of alot different from franchises like Zelda in which all the most important characters recur.

Hopefully that happens with Midna, then; however, there's a hole in your argument because of the fact that Ganondorf was not really the main antagonist. While he enabled the issue, the Twilight, Midna's curse, the kidnappings, etc. were all Zant's doings.

Raykz I'm only quoting you because I'm tired of people saying this idiotic crap. The Zelda in smash is from all the games not just the one her model is from. She is seen using her OoT spells from melee so Sakurai obviously doesn't care how old moves are. Since Shiek is a unique part of Zelda's moveset she will most likely come back.

Ganondorf's moveset (if/when he makes it in; nothing's confirmed yet) will be changed radically, we hear. Again, I remind you that Sheik was put into Melee for a bit of fun nostalgia, not because she is an indispensable part of Zelda's character.

I'm tired of you idiots putting words in my mouth. I like TP, I just find it inferior to MM. My opinion on both games has no effect on my opinion of Midna so stop acting like they are connected.

Our apologies.

Zelda and Shiek are one person and since the devs obviously don't care about move age she is completely different from Midna a whole new character who is most likely a one-off in a huge franchise with much more important and unique (I'm looking at you Tingle) characters.

Die! Just kidding. Read my above bit on Zelda and Sheik.

. . . .Im still very confused. If you hate Midna soo much than why do you waste your time posting huge post about her on her thread? Why the hell would you even go to a Midna fan-site to bash her and get banned?

Apparently it was a friend of his who got banned, not him. And he enjoys arguing, like me.

It's like some. . . KKK member going to a African American web-site to yell about Obama being a bad choice. All your hate-ing time could be used on the MM thread to support MM. . . cause this is really getting boring.

Uh oh. We're boring the people. Why don't you guys take a look at my moveset back there? It's a page back I think.

And you MUST be smoking something if your thing Ting is more important and unique than Midna. . .

Thank you. You've returned to me my will to live .

1. I don't hate Midna, I just don't like her.
2. That wasn't me on that site.
3. HIS NAME IS SKULL KID!
4. YOUR MOM IS SMOKING SOMETHING!

And that's why you're losing this argument.

1. Same thing. Your still spending alot of time on something you diss-like.
2. Oh, so you have lil Midna hating buddies to. . . and posted that pic for no reason.
3. Surrrreee, you just want SK and not MM SK even thou you just lovez MM to bits and think it's soo great. . .
4. Your momma smoked something. . . .3 months before you where born. (would explain some things. . )

Please don't flame the people I'm debating with. It dampens the argument.

 

[HipsterKid]

Well I feel loved. :D

Inhumaness levels have seemed to have increased yet again...
Not good.
But what can I honestly do? Nothing.

Anyway, I just thought I'd let you know that I guess you can keep on going with your, to put it nicely, "heated debate."
Not one of you three are going to stop until the thread is closed or until Midna is proven/disproven to be in Brawl.
Black/Light does seem to have a point though, Numa. Skull Kid does need his support... if you even are trying to give him support.

Nonetheless, I think the least you guys should do is move your discussion to PM instead. I mean, not only will it save space, but it will keep from my constant nagging! And who doesn't want that? I know I do! :D

Spoiler

Minda for Brawl. D:

 

[Numa Dude]

1. Same thing. Your still spending alot of time on something you diss-like.

I don't exactly have anything better to do (stupid christmas break)

2. Oh, so you have lil Midna hating buddies to. . . and posted that pic for no reason.

I posted that pic to show an example of crazy Midna fans.

3. Surrrreee, you just want SK and not MM SK even thou you just lovez MM to bits and think it's soo great. . .

We SK fans consider the mask form to be the definitive version.

4. Your momma smoked something. . . .3 months before you where born. (would explain some things. . )

You mean like my ability to burp on command?

Yetik, you posted while I was responding to black/light. Let me edit really quick.

I think I know what they're using: it's called an IP ban. It attacks your IP address rather than your account, so you can't just create an alt. Useful little things. Every website should have them.

So that's what that is. I was wondering how they could do that.

Those retros were protagonists in their games, yes, but had no story and not a terribly wide fan base.

This matters to Sakurai why?

The fact that a character is a clone doesn't change the fact that he's still in the game, which is the point here.

Clones where last minute additions because they didn't have enough time to make any more original characters. Had melee not been rushed we wouldn't have had clones.

And yes, shameless advertisement happens, but if the Melee team didn't want Roy in there, he wouldn't have been. You telling me that the Fire Emblem nerds blackmailed Sakurai or something?

What I'm telling you is that the higher ups forced Roy into the game for advertisement purposes and nothing more. Even Sakurai can be outranked sometimes.

Google "gamer drift". It's in an interview.

I'll be sure to do that if I remember.

Zelda was masquerading as a man, but that's not important. We never find out that Sheik and Zelda are one in the same until near the end of OoT. Zelda fans don't think of her as Sheik. You don't see too much LinkxSheik fanart. You don't see anyone begging Nintendo to make Zelda turn into Sheik again in a sequel. The fact that they're the same person is just a plot point, and essentially in the eyes of gamers they are two distinct characters with different personalities, different motives, different appearance, skills, etc. Zelda could have made a fine character on her own, without a transformation since she is skilled magically and we do see this in the games, but because OoT was such a hit they decided to give the old fans a little taste of nostalgia. Remember when Melee came out, and how big of a surprise that was to a lot of people? Yeah, that's why. Just a little insight on how Ninty's brain works.

What the fans consider Shiek doesn't matter. The fact is Shiek and Zelda are the same being therefore you can not say Shiek was an unimportant character. I am tired of explaining this simple concept to everyone.

You said the presentation was different, which implies that the characters had the same personality just different stories, thus making them equals in terms of depth. If I was wrong in assuming this, you can retract your statement; the Google search was to prove that people were affected much more by Midna's personality than Tatl's.

You where wrong. My point about the presentation was that Midna had a more developed story. I wasn't trying to imply anything about their depths.

But if we're talking from this point of view, how would Link know Ganondorf's around? The people of Hyrule had no idea what was going on. If somehow Link discovers Ganondorf, and we have the same story of the Chosen One shambling around the ruins of Hyrule to fight the overlord and make things all better again...that still removes roughly two thirds of Twilight Princess's story.

Ganondorf would most likely had attempted to once again conquer hyrule. Link being the hero would have to fight him. I'm sorry but, where were we going with this again? This has been going on so long I've forgoten.

The 'classic battle' in Twilight Princess comprised of Link going to find his friends, meeting and aiding Midna, doing her dirty work for a little while and only in helping her with this do we realize (to our dismay) Ganondorf's found a way into the story. If the final boss is all that stands between Link's story and irrelevance after the first eight hours, that's not really a good thing.

You seem to have misunderstood copperpot. The parts with Midna are seperate from the classic battle. It's 2 different storylines going on at the same time. The classic battle is the core while Midna's story is the one that drives the game foward. The game could still happen withought Midna but it wouldn't be nearly as good.

Twilight Princess is one game. Majora's Mask is another. A Link to the Past is yet another. You can't argue that because it's part of the same series that the protagonist will have the same prominent role as he did in all the others. Yes, Link fights Ganondorf, but the story would have been in essence the same if Ganondorf was never incorporated. However, I don't think I have to recall again what would would be left of TP's plot if Midna never showed up.

You don't seem to understand just how important Ganon's role is. It was he who gave Zant power to take over the twili realm which is the most important event in the game which sets up basically everything to come and that includes Midna and Link teaming up.

We're making headway .

I want to make a perverted comment but I won't.

Zant, uh, didn't come after you next. He left you with a dying Midna. And some really sweet keyboard music.

That is a much more fitting scene for that analogy.

I don't think that scene would have struck me as hard simply because the butler was convinced that his son was dead even before he saw the body.

I can assure you the butler did not know his son was dead. He thought his son was off on an advernture which actually makes the scene more sad because it shows his hope was in vain.

No, I can't. This might sound cruel, but I think after years of wondering if my child's dead, alive, or lost and injured somewhere slowly dying of disease, malnutrition and loss of blood, I might even feel a little relieved behind the sad confirmation that he is dead. I'd know how he died, and that now that the trial is over I can slowly recover and move on with my life.

But the butler didn't think his son was dead. He simply thought he was off on an adventure somewhere which makes his discovery that much sadder.

Well, you've used that word in your argument up there, mate. Now you say you don't have an exact definition for it? Retro is probably anything that's not being manufactured any more. GCNs are still being manufactured. N64 could be considered retro.

I fail to recall using any retro arguments in this debate so far. Enlighten me when I did.

Hopefully that happens with Midna, then; however, there's a hole in your argument because of the fact that Ganondorf was not really the main antagonist. While he enabled the issue, the Twilight, Midna's curse, the kidnappings, etc. were all Zant's doings.

Everything Zant did was what Ganon wanted making him the mastermind behind all the games events making him the main villain.

Ganondorf's moveset (if/when he makes it in; nothing's confirmed yet) will be changed radically, we hear. Again, I remind you that Sheik was put into Melee for a bit of fun nostalgia, not because she is an indispensable part of Zelda's character.

I don't see how a couple of years is really nostalgia. Now if they put a Zelda character like maybe that Aghanim guy maybe but Shiek was a fairly new addition to Zelda's known abilities so I don't think nostalgia is a real concrete reason.

And that's why you're losing this argument.

Because I don't like Midna?

 

[Chiroz]

You're missing a big piece of the puzzle here and that is Ganon. He was back in Hyrule and Link would have still needed to beat him. Link would have most likely still had to fight Zant too since Zant was one of Ganon's most loyal minions.

Yea he woulda done that all from that jail right? Nice!

And if Midna was killed, how exactly would he achieve what he had done.

I agree with everything this guy says.

Have you read your friend's quote, IT COMPLETELY KILLS WHAT YOU WERE SAYING 1 PARAGRAPH BEFORE

I dissagree. You wouldn't understand this unless you where to put yourself in that Deku's shoes. After being missing for years and just recently finding someone who reminds you of your lost son you find him dead in a desolate area. This is your only son, this dead creature was made from you. It was your baby. The pain of a parent losing an only child is much more sad than Zelda giving Midna her lifeforce. I'll admit that the parents in ordons sadness came close but there was still hope there children where alive. The deku butler was there looking at his dead child. There was no hope, his baby was simply dead and there was no way to bring him back.

Truly sad.... What about a whole island of people dying before your very own eyes? Not sad? Link's Awakening is the best Zelda to ever be.

You obviously can't understand the pain of losing an only child.

He probably can't, but thats not the point. A game is not measured like that. So what are you saying, if I make a game, where a cinematic comes on, and all the children in the city are dead, its the most depth a Zelda game has ever had? (Even though you can't even do anything, meaning you cant even move)

Raykz I'm only quoting you because I'm tired of people saying this idiotic crap.



The Zelda in smash is from all the games not just the one her model is from. She is seen using her OoT spells from melee so Sakurai obviously doesn't care how old moves are. Since Shiek is a unique part of Zelda's moveset she will most likely come back.

Do you know how to read and comprehend? IN NO PLACE DID I SAY that she might not come back, IN FACT my previous post actually says SHE PROBABLY WILL. **** MATE. I mean, WOW. I was stating that you keep saying something then saying the complete oposite with another example, let me break it down into a simple example so you can understand:

THIS is you:

"I hate Megaman, he shoudnt be in because he is blue, the color blue sucks" - 12:50

"I think that Sonic might be a good addition, I mean he is blue, thats why he should be in" - 1:00

That is YOU speaking.

I'm tired of you idiots putting words in my mouth. I like TP, I just find it inferior to MM. My opinion on both games has no effect on my opinion of Midna so stop acting like they are connected.

What I said was COMPLETELY based on the last fact I just said, if I were to rephrase it to the last example it would be. Do you hate Megaman that much? Are you so biased towards Sonic? Because you just make no sense.

Zelda and Shiek are one person and since the devs obviously don't care about move age she is completely different from Midna a whole new character who is most likely a one-off in a huge franchise with much more important and unique (I'm looking at you Tingle) characters.

IF YOU WOULD HAVE READ WHAT I SAID... I completely asked you to not explain that... instead what I want you to argue about is how you are so biased against Midna and so biased towards Sheik.

Let me rephrase that in a way thats easier to understand. How can you use the "She is only in one game card" against Midna and even say "She is not important because she is only in one game"

YET SAY

That Sheik is Zelda? When Sheik has been Zelda in 1/10+ games TLoZ has released? Its not only completely hypocritical, but the fact that you don't agree with yourself in more than 3/4 of the things you say is amazing...

 

[Black/Light]

I don't exactly have anything better to do (stupid christmas break)

Maybe you do. Bump up SK. . .

I posted that pic to show an example of crazy Midna fans.

Well if your friend hates on a character in their own fan-site than I think your friend is the crazy one. Thats like. . . slapping me in my house, having me kick your *** and calling me crazy for not letting you come back inside.

You mean like my ability to burp on command?

. . .Once you know what makes a burp you can do it on command. Yea, thats not really a insult

And Yetik, I wasn't flaming, just making alil joke. Can't find your move-set.
(Hopes some one starts a Midna and Wolf Link v Midna solo debate!!!)

 

[Yitik]

Well if your friend hates on a character in their own fan-site than I think your friend is the crazy one. Thats like. . . slapping me in my house, having me kick your *** and calling me crazy for not letting you come back inside.

Such is the life of the cyber-troll.

. . .Once you know what makes a burp you can do it on command. Yea, thats not really a insult

Don't do it too often, though. It can actually give you an ulcer (I know from experience).

And Yetik, I wasn't flaming, just making alil joke. Can't find your move-set.
(Hopes some one starts a Midna and Wolf Link v Midna solo debate!!!)

I'm stoked! Anyone here want Wolf Link and Midna so I can take them down?

Truly sad.... What about a whole island of people dying before your very own eyes? Not sad? Link's Awakening is the best Zelda to ever be.

Link's Awakening kind of made it all irrelevant, though, since it was all a dream in the end, did it not?

He probably can't, but thats not the point. A game is not measured like that. So what are you saying, if I make a game, where a cinematic comes on, and all the children in the city are dead, its the most depth a Zelda game has ever had? (Even though you can't even do anything, meaning you cant even move)

Depth does not equal sadness. If you want to put things that way, depth equals the complexity of that sadness.

And you guys need to remember that my name has two i's in it.

I'll repost my moveset; it's on page 83, but if anyone has dialup you know that's just way too long to wait.

I wrote it a while ago, so if something I say is stupid or incorrect...well, live with it. Can't be that bad, it's just a moveset .

BASIC ATTACKS

A - Midna cuffs an opponent at close distance. Low damage, and leaves Midna open for attack. Best used to catch the opponent off-guard and follow up with a stronger attack.

Forward A - A stronger backhand. Slightly more powerful than the A attack, but also a bit slower. Similar applications.

Dash A - Midna flies at her opponent through mid-air. Strikes at a low point, giving a high trajectory. Can even throw your opponent behind you.

Up A - Midna kicks an enemy straight upwards. Good for juggling.

Down A - A sweep attack. Longer cool down than other characters', but also makes the opponent flinch (think Zelda's)

Aerial a - Midna spins in mid-air. Very weak, but the instant the button is pressed she radiates an amount of Dark energy which can deal fairly heavy damage.

Aerial Forward A - A meteor attack. Midna slaps her opponent on a forward/down trajectory.

Aerial Back A - Midna kicks out with her tiny legs. Usually comparatively weak, but like the base aerial A can deal good damage if it hits at the right moment.

Aerial Up A - That helmet doesn't just look heavy!

Aerial down A - Another meteor. Midna kicks downwards, and with proper timing can send her unlucky enemy to the bottom of the screen.

SMASH Forward A - The Fused Shadow utilizes Midna's 'hair' to obliterate an opponent at good range.

SMASH Up A - A combo. Midna first strikes her opponent to above head level, then attacks with a blow of her headgear.

SMASH Down A - The power of the Twili draws opponents within range to the epicenter beneath Midna and blasts them away.

SPECIAL ATTACKS

B - An instantaneous, almost invisible burst of Twilight energy. Medium-long range (would cross about half of Final Destination). Deals fair damage and sends the opponent back at a slightly lower angle. Has long cool down (about a second).

Up B - Purely recovery. Midna condenses into bubbles of liquid which can be guided short distances.

Down B - The 'Wolf' attack . Held down, it encompasses enemies in the field, slowing them slightly. When released, Midna quickly attacks each of the enemies for high damage and medium power.

Forward B - Similar to Zelda's. Midna forms a ball of crackling Twilight energy which can be guided to violently dispel at the desired point.

THROWS: Midna would be the first character to be announced since the original Smash Bros to have a ranged grab. This grab would be slow to use, but slightly more powerful compared to those of Samus, Yoshi, and Link.

FINAL SMASH: Midna becomes fully possessed by the Fused Shadows...and anyone who's beaten Twilight Princess knows what happens.

 

[Numa Dude]

Yea he woulda done that all from that jail right? Nice!

And if Midna was killed, how exactly would he achieve what he had done.

This is a video game. Link could have gotten out any way the developers could think off.

Have you read your friend's quote, IT COMPLETELY KILLS WHAT YOU WERE SAYING 1 PARAGRAPH BEFORE

Puncuate your sentences correctly please.

Truly sad.... What about a whole island of people dying before your very own eyes? Not sad? Link's Awakening is the best Zelda to ever be.

Dreams can't die.

He probably can't, but thats not the point. A game is not measured like that. So what are you saying, if I make a game, where a cinematic comes on, and all the children in the city are dead, its the most depth a Zelda game has ever had? (Even though you can't even do anything, meaning you cant even move)

You once again put words in my mouth. There is no sense in even talking to you since you simply ignore what I say and make **** up.

Do you know how to read and comprehend? IN NO PLACE DID I SAY that she might not come back, IN FACT my previous post actually says SHE PROBABLY WILL. **** MATE. I mean, WOW. I was stating that you keep saying something then saying the complete oposite with another example, let me break it down into a simple example so you can understand:

THIS is you:

"I hate Megaman, he shoudnt be in because he is blue, the color blue sucks" - 12:50

"I think that Sonic might be a good addition, I mean he is blue, thats why he should be in" - 1:00

That is YOU speaking.

This entire thing makes no sense.

What I said was COMPLETELY based on the last fact I just said, if I were to rephrase it to the last example it would be. Do you hate Megaman that much? Are you so biased towards Sonic? Because you just make no sense.

Your the one not making sense. I say one thing and you go off about how I'm a hypocrite withought any real reason.

IF YOU WOULD HAVE READ WHAT I SAID... I completely asked you to not explain that... instead what I want you to argue about is how you are so biased against Midna and so biased towards Sheik.

I am not biased toward either characters. If I loved Midna and hated Shiek I would still be saying the exact same thing.

Let me rephrase that in a way thats easier to understand. How can you use the "She is only in one game card" against Midna and even say "She is not important because she is only in one game"

YET SAY

That Sheik is Zelda? When Sheik has been Zelda in 1/10+ games TLoZ has released? Its not only completely hypocritical, but the fact that you don't agree with yourself in more than 3/4 of the things you say is amazing...

I've already explained this in the simplest way possible. The smash Zelda is a combonation of all Zelda's therefore Sakurai is free to take moves from any Zelda game, the most unique of which is a Shiek transformation. Everytime I talk about Midna it always gets onto Shiek somehow.

 

[Black/Light]

Sounds decent...I don't have much to say about it (Im not too into move-set spects seeing as Im sure it will be asume as long as she's in.). . . hoping for a Wolf Link debate.

 

[HipsterKid]

Well I get the feeling no one read what I wrote.
As pathetic as this sounds, I will post a quote right here to show you what I put.

Well I feel loved. :D

Inhumaness levels have seemed to have increased yet again...
Not good.
But what can I honestly do? Nothing.

Anyway, I just thought I'd let you know that I guess you can keep on going with your, to put it nicely, "heated debate."
Not one of you three are going to stop until the thread is closed or until Midna is proven/disproven to be in Brawl.
Black/Light does seem to have a point though, Numa. Skull Kid does need his support... if you even are trying to give him support.

Nonetheless, I think the least you guys should do is move your discussion to PM instead. I mean, not only will it save space, but it will keep from my constant nagging! And who doesn't want that? I know I do! :D

Spoiler

Minda for Brawl. D:

 

[Chiroz]

@ Yitik

Yea Yitik (talking about what you quoted about me), I was trying to show Numa how he is wrong, I don't actually believe that myself. I mean a game where you can't even play and everyone just lost one family member has no depth, but for Numa it must be the best Zelda ever.



About Link's Awakening, not that I am arguing its the best Zelda ever, because not even I believe that, but it was sad (not necesarily, THE saddest). I mean its sad because you just spent your whole adventure in an island, and the people were sentient beings, they might have not technically died, but they lost conciousness, its basically they same thing.

This is a video game. Link could have gotten out any way the developers could think off.

As they could have made Midna omnipotent and made her rampage all over Ganondorf without any use of Link, but they didn't, so this point fails and achieves nothing more than you admit your defeat.

Puncuate your sentences correctly please.

Seriously? This is the lowest form of admitting you are defeated, nothing to attack back with, so lets go with grammar!!!

Anyways, why didn't you actually say anything about what I said on this one? Hahahahahah

Dreams can't die.

Plants can't cry. What's your point? Seriously, all this proves is how you can't come up with anything new to back up your things.

I wasen't arguing if they died or not, but how it felt when they were gone.

You once again put words in my mouth. There is no sense in even talking to you since you simply ignore what I say and make **** up.

I never said YOU said that. I said thats what you were implying by what you said. (Hence the, So what you are saying is). Implying means what everyone else understans, and since 4 people have understood the same as me, it means I correctly used that paragraph, now why don't you stop evading my points and argue them.

This entire thing makes no sense.

Thats what you do.

You say one character is bad because of something, then you say a character is good because of the same thing... Thats what I mean, you make absolutely no sense.

Your the one not making sense. I say one thing and you go off about how I'm a hypocrite withought any real reason.

Read above.

You said one character was good because he/she was this/that for this/that, then you say another character is bad for the same reason, WTF?

I am not biased toward either characters. If I loved Midna and hated Shiek I would still be saying the exact same thing.

Thats completely impossible, because everything you have said is based on your opinion. The fact you said: She is not important because she is in only one game, means YOU CONSIDER it to be too little, and the fact you said Sheik is Zelda because she is {FOR ONLY ONE GAME AGAIN} (OMG COULD YOU BE MORE HYPOCRIT) is because YOU THINK that is enough.

I've already explained this in the simplest way possible. The smash Zelda is a combonation of all Zelda's therefore Sakurai is free to take moves from any Zelda game, the most unique of which is a Shiek transformation. Everytime I talk about Midna it always gets onto Shiek somehow.

Let me try and say this in the calmest, slowest way possible....


This.... is.... not.... what... I.... am.... arguing!


I am not arguing if Sheik is in, in fact, as I alredy stated before I expect Sheik to come back! What I am arguing is how YOU (Not Sakurai, YOU) can say that 1 game is not enough for Midna to be important, yet say 1 game is enough to override all other ~11 games and say that Sheik = Zelda? It just does not make sense

Here is another way to explain it.


How can you think, that 1 game is enough to state the fact that Zelda = Sheik, when Zelda has not been Sheik for the other ~11 games she has been in. Yet say that 1 game is not enough to introduce a new important character in a series?

Please explain that, not the above. AND take into consideration I want you to explain them both as one question, not one by one, but both together, using comparison and contrast if possible (you are the grammar/english guy right?)

 

[Black/Light]

I agree with Raykz. One game IS enuff to get you in and I think that Midna will get in for the same reason Sheik did. As in, being apart of the Zelda game in which this ssb game is getting a great amount of influance from.

Sheik wouldn't have been in if all the characters where based on LoZ:AltoP for example.

But I don't think she will be back much like I don't think Ness will be back.

And I agree with hip. . . this is getting to a low point. Numu has lost and it's showing. . . so take this to PM.

 

[Chiroz]

Well I get the feeling no one read what I wrote.
As pathetic as this sounds, I will post a quote right here to show you what I put.

Omg so sorry, I totally did not read your post XD. Black/Light mentioned it so I went back to read it...


So ummmmm anyways, what should we discuss now?

 

[Black/Light]

Omg so sorry, I totally did not read your post XD. Black/Light mentioned it so I went back to read it...


So ummmmm anyways, what should we discuss now?

If someone wants Midna with Wolf Link I would be happy to debate that

But I think they (Wolf Link fans) are all gone now

 

[Chiroz]

Insert moveser in here

Not bad, although I would change the Foward B. I believe it could be tiny "spikes" of twilight, like what Ganondorf does when he possesses Zelda, but these ones woud actually hurt anyone in the middle. Sort of like Sheiks neddles, only not chargeable, she would throw many from the start.


And apart from a few things here and there its a good moveset. Although I am a Midna + Wolf supporter, I give credit to this moveset. I might make a Midna + Wolf moveset soon, just to let you know, be on the lookout .


Edit: Possess has so much S's

If someone wants Midna with Wolf Link I would be happy to debate that

But I think they (Wolf Link fans) are all gone now

I am a Wolf Link fan .

Just that I would like Midna in any form (well except her human or "real" form, if she were to make it in as that, I would ***** slap Sakurai), before not having her at all, but if I could choose Midna + Wolf Link!!!

 

[Stryks]

Numa I JUST dont get you:

U hate an original character who hides in ur shadow, who u developed a bond with trough all the game, helps u in the battle, is the main character in the game (after link) and has one of the biggest roles apart of the main hero in zelda series (in comparison with other characters in past games)

and u want happy mask salesman instead?

im sorry but this has HUGE amount of fail in it...

 

[Senor Crouch]

I would think if Midna got into Brawl she would be on Wolf Link. Seeing how Sakurai leans toward the unusual, I think he would have Midna and Wolf Link as a team. In the end I guess only time will tell. I also think that Midna's final smash should be

Spoiler

putting on the fused shadows and turn into that massive creature. Then go into the background and smash that huge javalin/sword onto the stage, creating an earthquake that sends opponents flying.

(Just incase someone hasn't gotten that far in the game)

 

[Grod]

I think Midna should be able to "transform" into Midna with Wolf, and then back to Midna wolf-free. Kind of like Shiek/Zelda, that way everyone is pleased. Obviously wolf-free Midna would be floatier and more magical, and the oppisite is true for wolf-Midna. It'd be cool.

 

[Florida]

I think Midna should be able to "transform" into Midna with Wolf, and then back to Midna wolf-free. Kind of like Shiek/Zelda, that way everyone is pleased. Obviously wolf-free Midna would be floatier and more magical, and the oppisite is true for wolf-Midna. It'd be cool.

Not the best idea I've seen. We already have too many "transformation" characters (samus - zamus, zelda - sheik, possibly etc.) and we really don't need anymore. And IF there were to be a transformation from the M & W L combo, to just Minda alone, how would it be done: via down B, or via final smash? Either way, that's throwing away other awesome options that could've been for that attack.

Minda and Wolf Link would make the perfect character.
Everyday I grow to want them more and more ;o

 

[Yitik]

So that's what that is. I was wondering how they could do that.

It's so satisfying. When you do it, there's a big long list of numbers and you can just stare at them and think of all the flamers you've pissed off by putting them there. Ahh .

This matters to Sakurai why?

Because sequels are the cheapest way to make money off old stuff, and is what the whole Smash Bros. series revolves around. It's...a mass sequel, I guess. All these characters making a return for their fans, who'll buy it without question.

Clones where last minute additions because they didn't have enough time to make any more original characters. Had melee not been rushed we wouldn't have had clones.

But there still would have been the same characters. They just wouldn't have been clones.

What I'm telling you is that the higher ups forced Roy into the game for advertisement purposes and nothing more. Even Sakurai can be outranked sometimes.

Proof?

I'll be sure to do that if I remember.

Brilliant. I'm glad someone will.

What the fans consider Shiek doesn't matter. The fact is Shiek and Zelda are the same being therefore you can not say Shiek was an unimportant character. I am tired of explaining this simple concept to everyone.

It's a simple concept, yet it is false. Sheik and Zelda have different personalities and different roles in the story. They're physically the same person, but so are, for example, Gollum and Smeagol.

You where wrong. My point about the presentation was that Midna had a more developed story. I wasn't trying to imply anything about their depths.

Development = story depth.

Ganondorf would most likely had attempted to once again conquer hyrule. Link being the hero would have to fight him. I'm sorry but, where were we going with this again? This has been going on so long I've forgoten.

I can't remember either. I'll say it again: I hate this quote system . Wait, it was about the fact that Midna's story is more prominent than Link's: if Ganondorf just went to conquer Hyrule, and Link found out through the destruction of his own land rather than Midna's, TP would have had an entirely different story, making this argument irrelevent.

You seem to have misunderstood copperpot. The parts with Midna are seperate from the classic battle. It's 2 different storylines going on at the same time. The classic battle is the core while Midna's story is the one that drives the game foward. The game could still happen withought Midna but it wouldn't be nearly as good.

Wait...how can a story be core without driving the game forward, exactly? Those two terms mean the same thing.

You don't seem to understand just how important Ganon's role is. It was he who gave Zant power to take over the twili realm which is the most important event in the game which sets up basically everything to come and that includes Midna and Link teaming up.

But we don't find out about that until much later, after we've seen Zant's power. For all we know, he could just have had the ToP himself. Ganondorf was just tacked on, really; if Zant hadn't mentioned Ganondorf the game would have been over with his defeat and only lost maybe fourty-five minutes.

I want to make a perverted comment but I won't.

Praise the world.

That is a much more fitting scene for that analogy.

Is that a statement of agreeance?

I can assure you the butler did not know his son was dead. He thought his son was off on an advernture which actually makes the scene more sad because it shows his hope was in vain.

Ah, gotcha. So one sad scene. Now there's a chance I might be convinced there's something in a previous Zelda game that maybe even approaches being as tear-jerking as MDH. See if you can get me the cut scene in question on YouTube.

I fail to recall using any retro arguments in this debate so far. Enlighten me when I did.

You said that some characters I mentioned that were 'minor' were clones, others shameless ads, and some just thrown in for retro-ness.

Everything Zant did was what Ganon wanted making him the mastermind behind all the games events making him the main villain.

I don't think so. Zant wanted to usurp Midna, conquer Hyrule to free his people, and instill emotion in the Twili once again. I'm pretty sure Ganondorf didn't tell him to do all that, considering how angry Zant was before he encountered his 'god'. In fact, Ganondorf even says "Whatever you desire, I shall desire as well."

I don't see how a couple of years is really nostalgia. Now if they put a Zelda character like maybe that Aghanim guy maybe but Shiek was a fairly new addition to Zelda's known abilities so I don't think nostalgia is a real concrete reason.

Nostalgia is anything reminiscent of something in the past that was enjoyed. For me, nostalgia can even just be playing MDH on the keyboard.

Because I don't like Midna?

Because you tend to, every once in a while, attack the arguer rather than the argument.

@ Strykes: Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

@ Rayks: Glad you liked it. For the Forward B, I wanted something a little slower and more initially powerful, since that other B attack is supposed to be basically instant (faster than Fox's blaster). Oh, and sorry about the misunderstanding on LoZ2 .

Now we've got a few Wolf Link fans, so let's debate!

@ Black/Light: No, arguments generally are won one way or another. Generally, it's my way, and I think it's going that way this time too (much thanks to the other Midna supporters here ).

@ egrunts (SPOILERS): Another transformation has been suggested for Midna: True form and Cursed form. I don't like this one either, mainly because True form could only blow stuff up with her tears . I dunno, she just doesn't seem as inclined towards fighting, and I think would detract from the Cursed form.

As for Wolf Link, I also think he would detract. He would be doing all the hitting, bitting, clawing, etc., which is kind of the point, but then it'd be more of a Wolf Link character since most moves used by smashers are A attacks. This is supposed to be a Midna character, and not yet another reincarnation of Link in Smash Bros.

 

[Chiroz]

Yea, its ok, I still think Link's Awakening is a very good game, just not to the extent of OoT, TP or the others.

As for Wolf Link, I also think he would detract. He would be doing all the hitting, bitting, clawing, etc., which is kind of the point, but then it'd be more of a Wolf Link character since most moves used by smashers are A attacks. This is supposed to be a Midna character, and not yet another reincarnation of Link in Smash Bros.

Well, yesterday, while thinking it over, I came up with a completely new mechanic for this duo (well its not THAT original, but it actually is original I guess) I will post a moveset soon enough (I hope I remember) which will utilize this new mechanic in a sick way. I am afraid this mechanic might be a bit overpowered, I will need to tone down some things.

 

[Yitik]

A 'sick' way? lol...interesting. Well, we'll see how it plays out; I look forward to reading it!

 

[HipsterKid]

Alright well, since it all seems to have stopped, I think I'll go ahead and post something that isn't complaining here. :]

So, I have thought, for about three minutes, for a B moveset for Midna. Everyone else's A movesets are good for me. I just think the B ones are the ones that could use a tweak or two. So I thought, why not?
Let's see what happens with this attempt.

Standard B - It's basically the little Twilight ball thing that she shoots at the chain to Wolf Link in the beginning of the game. It must be charged to about half the size of Mewtwo's Shadow Ball in order to be shot and you can store it. However, it goes relatively faster than Shadow Ball but it doesn't curve. It goes straight across the field and it can go across about three fourths of a Final Destination. Does moderate damage with moderate knockback.

Side B - To make up for Midna's sort-of lacking B move, I've chosen the Yitik's B move ( I hope you don't mind that I borrowed ^_^). The only difference being mine is Side B and his is standard B.

B - An instantaneous, almost invisible burst of Twilight energy. Medium-long range (would cross about half of Final Destination). Deals fair damage and sends the opponent back at a slightly lower angle. Has long cool down (about a second).

Does low damage with high knockback.

Up B - This is almost a given. Midna bursts into the little twilight squares and you pick a direction that you would want her to go. This is similar to Zelda's in the sense that you choose a direction to go however, with Midna's you can see which way the twilight is going. The twilight can do damage if someone comes in contact with it. However, when Midna is starting to reform, there is a bit of lag (About the same amount as after you've done Farore's Wind). This move covers as much space as Farore's Wind, seeing as Midna probably won't have very good jumps. Does about 4 damage if you come in contact with it and the twilight goes relatively fast.

Down B - This one is very similar to Yitik's again. Midna makes the little wolf barrier thing. This can extend as far as one and a half Midnas on each side. It zaps whoever comes in range of it with the little orange sparks, slowing them down. Once the button is released Midna attacks with the big hair hand thingy. It attacks both sides, swinging the hair from one side to the other. Does High damage with low knockback.

Well, don't be afraid to tell me what you think. :]