• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

THE Optimal Gamecube Controller Scheme: A Dissertation

Natch

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
649
Location
San Diego, CA
NNID
Natch42
I decided to edit this thing in word and re-post it here, but it turns out there's more to this than I thought. It's going to be longer. I'm currently at about 2,500 words for my revision, and I'm lucky if I'm 1/3 done. In contrast, what you see before you is about 1,500 words.

To be honest, the "revision" is more akin to an entirely new Dissertation than an actual edit. I'll probably have to open a new topic so I can spread it out among two or more posts. I'm sorry I'm not done yet, but I promise you it will be amazing once I finish it.


Before anything important happens, I’d like to tell you about my history with Brawl and Smash in general.

I’ve been playing since SSB, but I was far too young to even know about the competitive community. Same with SSBM-later on, I had a brief interest in tournaments-check my join date to see the timeframe-but I never actually went to one. I did know about Wavedashing and L-Canceling, and actually tried to learn how to do them consistently. It didn’t go anywhere, but the point is that I knew about the competitive Smash community, but only just. To give you an idea, I thought Gannondorf was somewhere around Low Tier in Melee until just a month or two ago.

Time passes, I lose my interest. There was too much happening in those years for me too have an interest. Fast forward. Brawl is announced, and I along with everyone and their dog wants Ridley in (**** you Sakurai. On an unrelated note, I had planned to use MK when I got the game-he looked cool. I never actually ended up doing so). Brawl comes out, and my interested in competitive Smash is rekindled. I still didn’t know much about things, but I was reading stuff and trying to do ATs and such.

Fast forward to late Sept ’08; I go to my first tourney and get owned-lost twice in a row. Winner’s, Loser’s, and then out of the tournament. This trend continues. It keeps continuing. People start to recognize that I know my stuff, but nothing beyond that-the nickname in my signature is a running joke down in SoCal. At my most recent tourney-one that actually had a big turnout with respected players-I got 49th out of 87 people, the best I’ve done so far.

M’kay, now that you know more about me, I’m moving on. Before anything else, I’m going to make a few statements/disclaimers so you know where I’m coming from.

Notes and Disclaimers:

1. I’m not forcing you to do anything. Use whatever control scheme you like.

2. I’m not perfect-if I have something wrong, tell me in a non-threatening manner. I’m looking to make a good guide, and this is a dissertation after all.

3. This is for the Gamecube controller ONLY, though you can apply the logic used here to the Classic Controller as well-it has the same functionally and general button location, except it has an extra shoulder button.

4. I am assuming you DON’T claw the controller as part of your normal gameplay. If you claw the controller for certain ATs, this will still work for you.

5. If you make any sort of changes, keep in mind you are going to suck while you’re relearning the muscle memory.

6. I shall quantify how “good” a control scheme is by figuring out how many things it requires your fingers to do, and how easily can you perform them.

7. I have big hands. I’m 6’ 3.5’’, and my hands are larger than average. This may affect what I’m about to say, but I feel the principal still stands.


Default Control Scheme-Where are the Fingers?

Left Index Finger: This one was on L.

Left Thumb: This one was on the Analog Stick. You can move around and Jump.

Right Index Finger: This one was on Z and R.

Right Thumb: This one was on X/Y, A, B, and the C-Stick.

What does all this mean? Well, enough among this control scheme, there is an optimal way to use it. Ideally, you would use L with your Left Index Finger so you could dedicate your Right Index Finger to Z. The Y button would rarely be used, since your Thumb naturally tends to follow an arc if you move it from the C-Stick, to B, to A, and then finally to X. Y’s only use would be to offer you a way of pressing Y after hitting A. From my testing-assuming your Right Index Finger is on Z-your entire hand has to shift in order to hit Y.

So, after the amending changes, we come up with this.

Left Index Finger: This one covers L.

Left Thumb: Analog Stick

Right Index Finger: Z button. No reason to use R.

Right Thumb: This one was on X/Y, A, B, and the C-Stick. Y is used less frequently, as X is the better option more often than not.


Common Changes to the Default Control Scheme:

Tap Jump Off: Even though I myself use this, I now believe Tap Jump Off has an unbalanced Pros:Cons ratio. The Cons outweigh the pros. The benefits you gain are as follows:

1. You can more easily perform a Utilt.

2. You can more easily aim your shield upwards without jumping out.

3. You won’t risk using your second jump if you Uair or Up+B.

The cons are as follows:

1. You can no longer Up+B or Upsmash out of Shield without doing some crazy **** with your hands.

It is still possible to perform Utilts or aim your shield without jumping out with Tap Jump on. It’s just more difficult. In the case of number 3, jumping with X, then hitting the C-Stick eliminates the Uair problem. The Up+B problem remains, but it’s not really a problem. I see no reason why you would not want to use your second jump before using Up+B.

Setting Grab to Y: There’s nothing wrong with this. I’ve seen it often enough-I used it myself, and still do. It’s just an easier way to grab if for reason Z bothers you, or you like to shield with R instead of L.

The Optimal Control Scheme-What buttons are required, and what do they do?:

I shall only list what they do if things change from the Default Control Scheme.

Left Index Finger: L button.

Left Thumb: Analog Stick

Right Index Finger: Z button. This one Jumps.

Right Thumb: C-Stick, B, A, and X buttons. X is Grab.

Basically, all I did was switch X and Z. Why?
It’s better to dedicate a single finger to Jumping instead of Grabbing. Here is a sample case; you are running at the opponent and you shorthop, intending to C-Stick your next aerial for whatever reason. Their shield goes up after you short hop. Your thumb is all the way at the C-Stick, and would have to move back to X. Pressing up on the Analog stick may be viable, but you’re a little more limited in terms of aerial control when you do that, and your thumb has to move a longer distance than your finger would if it’s pressing Z.

If you had set Z to Jump, you can chose to Jump again sooner-and with more control-than you have otherwise. Sure, you only jumped a few frames or so sooner, but those frames count. You want every advantage you can get, don’t you?

On the flipside, setting X to Grab is simply because your thumb moves in that nice little “arc.” If you have to angle your hand off of the controller somewhat to hit Y-assuming your index finger’s on Z-and that makes for a more sluggish reaction time.

The reason I choose Z over R is because you’ll be quicker to press Z than you would R, if only by a few frames, Those springs take longer to press down than Z would.

Now, R and Y are wildcard buttons that should be used rarely. These buttons can be set to whatever you want. For example, I set R to Grab for the purposes of still being able to Mortarslide with an approximate muscle memory. If for some reason I need to Jump instead of Mortslide, there’s no worry. By the time I need to hit R, I’ve already committed to the dash attack-I would have to choose to jump before I hit C-Stick down. As a bonus, the slight delay on pressing R-in comparison to Z-doesn’t apply here, as the button I have to press first is the C-Stick. I can just press R sooner than I would Z.

For Y, I also have that set to Grab. As Snake, I learned how to do his Boost Grab-canceling his Dash with a Grab. I practiced hitting A, then rolling my thumb to Y. I find can do this without having to move my hand as much.


I whole-heartedly believe that setting Z to Jump, X to Grab, leaving Tap Jump On, and shielding with L instead of R is the best control scheme you could have-it provides the quickest reaction, and leaves all of your fingers immobile except your Right Thumb. Your Right Index Finger will move occasionally, but not nearly as much as your Right Thumb is.

Besides that, thank you for reading. I hope you take something from this.
 

LuLLo

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 27, 2006
Messages
765
Location
Netherlands, NB
Hmm, I can see you're right, theoretically (spelled right?)..
You're right about most things, but the Z-X change doesn't quite work for me.
Here's my ultimate configuration:

L-nothing
R-shield
Z-a attack (for C-stick purposes)

X-jump
Y-grab

C-stick-special


Why I changed my grab to Y and attack (which still remains on A) is Z is simple.
I can freely move the C-stick to perform some tricks and still use an A attack combined when Z is set to attack.
The reason for Y=grab? I don't know, my handcoordination feels much better and more comfortable when I grab with Y. When grab is set to Y, my finger just doesn't feel right on Z, it tends to hurt after a long time of play, and timing with my thumb is much better. Also, when you airdodge downwards next to someone, and you want to follow up with a grab, you'd have to move your finger pretty quickly to Z after R, which can be a little too fast for some people (when doing this a lot, the pain comes in).

As for your Z-X change, the reason I don't like it (and why I think many people won't like it) is the reason previously given: my finger tends to hurt when using Z too much, and when you make Z one of the most used buttons...well, you know what I mean.

It may be the BEST configuration in theory, but like many theories, I think it won't work better when executed.
 

Jman115

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 23, 2008
Messages
367
Location
maine
I think it is mainly personal preference.
I use R as jump and leave tap jump off. Everything else is the same. I also main TL so grabbing isn't a huge part of my game and z works perfectly. I may set y to grab, but I honestly never use the two buttons.
 

DtJ Glyphmoney

Summoned from a trading card
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 24, 2006
Messages
8,559
NNID
Tip_Tappers
3DS FC
1032-1228-5523
Not a bad read, but you forgot the "e" in Gamecube for the title =P
 

Mith_

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 30, 2008
Messages
2,376
Location
Augusta, GA
i can up+b and upsmash out of my shield with tap jump off. i have L set to jump. hit L+up+A/B. works for me.
 

Turbo Ether

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
3,601
I set Z to attack because it makes difficult DAC, like Sheik's and Wolf's easier to do. I'd prefer to go back to default though, because making a control scheme on every Wii at a tournament is annoying and my Melee muscle memory also gets thrown off.
 

Natch

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
649
Location
San Diego, CA
NNID
Natch42
Hmm, I can see you're right, theoretically (spelled right?)..
You're right about most things, but the Z-X change doesn't quite work for me.
Here's my ultimate configuration:

L-nothing
R-shield
Z-a attack (for C-stick purposes)

X-jump
Y-grab

C-stick-special


Why I changed my grab to Y and attack (which still remains on A) is Z is simple.
I can freely move the C-stick to perform some tricks and still use an A attack combined when Z is set to attack.
The reason for Y=grab? I don't know, my handcoordination feels much better and more comfortable when I grab with Y. When grab is set to Y, my finger just doesn't feel right on Z, it tends to hurt after a long time of play, and timing with my thumb is much better. Also, when you airdodge downwards next to someone, and you want to follow up with a grab, you'd have to move your finger pretty quickly to Z after R, which can be a little too fast for some people (when doing this a lot, the pain comes in).

As for your Z-X change, the reason I don't like it (and why I think many people won't like it) is the reason previously given: my finger tends to hurt when using Z too much, and when you make Z one of the most used buttons...well, you know what I mean.

It may be the BEST configuration in theory, but like many theories, I think it won't work better when executed.
The purpose of this configuration is to allow you to perform your most important options with the least amount of finger movement.

For your current control scheme, I would practice using L to Shield, so that you can dedicate your right index finger to Z-or R, now that it's no longer being used to Shield.

Honestly, I should revise the OP now that I have this new information. I'll construct a new revised dissertation with a better format.

i can up+b and upsmash out of my shield with tap jump off. i have L set to jump. hit L+up+A/B. works for me.
This is good news. As long as Jump is on one of your shoulder buttons, your control scheme is vastly improved from the default. It allows you the GREATEST degree aerial control. As well, you are using it to Up+B and Usmash out of shield. I shall make an edit to the OP-this is something I had not considered.

I set Z to attack because it makes difficult DAC, like Sheik's and Wolf's easier to do. I'd prefer to go back to default though, because making a control scheme on every Wii at a tournament is annoying and my Melee muscle memory also gets thrown off.
It is still possible to use your DACUS(Dash Attack Cancelled Up Smash) by setting Z to Grab. Try this:

Start running. C-Stick Down. Up+Z.

If you are reffering to DAC in general, there's also DACG(Dash Attack Cancelled Grab). This can be done with Z set to Grab.
 

demodemo

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Messages
711
Location
Mrs.sauga, Canada
I claw when i'm playing peach, and play normally as sheik with R as attack. i claw with sheik if i am going for crazy gimps, but that happens only once every few matches

theoretically with R as attack i don't need to claw with peach, but my peach has grow accustomed to it. i don't like trigger buttons anyway.

i don't have tap jump on. up b out of shield is useless with many characters

i think that clawing is the most efficient way to use the controller (with tap jump on too) with no controls changed. you don't really need anything else lol
 

Natch

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
649
Location
San Diego, CA
NNID
Natch42
I claw when i'm playing peach, and play normally as sheik with R as attack. i claw with sheik if i am going for crazy gimps, but that happens only once every few matches

theoretically with R as attack i don't need to claw with peach, but my peach has grow accustomed to it. i don't like trigger buttons anyway.

i don't have tap jump on

i think that clawing is the most efficient way to use the controller (with tap jump on too) with no controls changed. you don't really need anything else lol
If you read my OP, you see that I mention clawing. Clawing the controller is the best way to make use of ANY controller scheme, assuming you are still making use of the shoulder buttons.
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
You missed several benefits to tap jump off. With tap jump on, it's very hard (not just a little hard) to do an up special without using your double jump which is a big deal for a few characters (mostly Yoshi). Also, tap jump off lets you SDI upward without immediately using your double jump as soon as you escape a move; it's VERY helpful against Mach Tornado. I'm not convinced tap jump off is better either way, but the argument for it is about as compelling as the argument against it, and the overall value is probably character specific.

I think you can argue for a lot of other set-ups. You seem to operate on the premise that the user holds the controller in such a way that X is a natural button to hit; my right thumb slides between Y, A, and B with X being awkward and out of the way (my thumb naturally rests in the gap between Y and A). If you want to put jumping on Z, you would probably want to remap specials to Y so the only reason to ever move your right thumb would be the c-stick (which has unique properties you don't want to give up... though there are strong arguments for remapping it). L+A is grab anyway so you really don't need a grab button, but R would be a good grab button because you never need to grab in midair except to use tethers. You also would have nothing to do with B or X so those are free I guess. It's just a shame you can't map taunts outside of their default placements; putting down taunt on X would be useful for Kirby, Snake, and Luigi.
 

powuh_of_PIE

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 30, 2008
Messages
462
Location
Charlotte, North Carolina
Just as a note: For my Sheik, I learned to DACUS by setting R to Attack. Since it's the only complicated AT I use in terms of number of fingers used, it's easy to give one input to each finger (thought the Analog Stick is used twice). It goes Dash -->Down+C -->Up -->R
 

_Void_

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 17, 2008
Messages
30
Location
Cologne, Germany
Ever thought of using your middle finger for the R button instead of your index finger?
I thought that was completely natual, but it seems I was mistaken =o
Btw, I also use Y to jump, just like AA. And IMO it really is a completely natural movement even when combined with B-button and C-Stick usage.
 

cman

Smash Ace
Joined
May 17, 2008
Messages
593
The problem with doing something like this is there is a lot of character-specific stuff. For example, among Marths, it is very common to set Y to shield so you can more easily powershield some of the better projectiles, Falcos often have L/R set to jump for instant aerial phantasms, etc. It's also going to depend a lot on playstyles. Saying one controller set up is optimal doesn't really cover the situation.
 

Turbo Ether

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
3,601
It is still possible to use your DACUS(Dash Attack Cancelled Up Smash) by setting Z to Grab. Try this:

Start running. C-Stick Down. Up+Z.

If you are reffering to DAC in general, there's also DACG(Dash Attack Cancelled Grab). This can be done with Z set to Grab.
Well, the thing is, Wolf and Sheik's DACUS requires a lot of frame precision, so the point of setting Z to attack, is so the DACG doesn't interfere. It seems to help.
 

Natch

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
649
Location
San Diego, CA
NNID
Natch42
Well, the thing is, Wolf and Sheik's DACUS requires a lot of frame precision, so the point of setting Z to attack, is so the DACG doesn't interfere. It seems to help.
You do know that DACUS can still be performed with Z set though, right? That was the thing I wanted to get across. I'm unaware of any mitigating circumstances.

Anyways, I'm gonna be revising my dissertationg for awhile-I won't be responding until aftwards. Feel free to keep posting in the mean time, I'll probably see it since I'll be refreshing this paticular tab every so often.
 

Ukemi

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
147
Location
Houston/Champaign
I don't know if this would really count as a good set up, but here goes anyway. (I use a classic, but I don't utilize the zL or zR buttons.) I put L to jump, and then everything else doesn't really matter too much. This way I can scratch my nose if it becomes irritated during a match without pausing every few seconds. I can jump and move around (and taunt, but I don't think that really is necessary) with my left hand, allowing me to avoid some attacks while I scratch my nose with my right. I guess this doesn't really come in handy for ATs and such, but it's nice to be able to scratch your nose. :bee:

Perhaps this set-up can be improved by putting zL to shield so that I can shield/dodge/roll, but we're talking GCN controllers here.

Oh and by the way I don't use tap jump, so using L as a jump button works better for me.

Also divides the controller into a movement side and an action side, which doesn't really do anything.
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
12,115
Location
Chicago, IL
I like this:

Tap jump on (I use Marth I have to)
A: Attack
B: Special
X: Jump
Y: Grab (helps me with Falco)
Dpad: Taunt
L: Grab
Z: Shield (This way I can use either button on the right side with my index finger and not pay attention to which I'm using)
R: Shield
CStick: Smash

I might switch L to attack for DAC's, but I don't know.

Yup.
 

cman

Smash Ace
Joined
May 17, 2008
Messages
593
I like this:

Tap jump on (I use Marth I have to)
A: Attack
B: Special
X: Jump
Y: Grab (helps me with Falco)
Dpad: Taunt
L: Grab
Z: Shield (This way I can use either button on the right side with my index finger and not pay attention to which I'm using)
R: Shield
CStick: Smash

I might switch L to attack for DAC's, but I don't know.

Yup.
Y set to grab... Why?
 

Natch

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
649
Location
San Diego, CA
NNID
Natch42
Okay, this is gonna take longer than I thought, but it'll be really good by the time this is over.

Keep it coming, please. The input is very helpful.
 

Crizthakidd

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 1, 2007
Messages
2,619
Location
NJ
best controller setting is just to sit down with ur opponent and fight with normal settings like p1 vs p2 lol why take time away by goign to add a name and change settings. obviously if its working for ur advantage do it and you have already learned from it... but still
 

TP

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 28, 2008
Messages
3,341
Location
St. Louis, MO
There are different ways a Ganon can Thunderstorm, but the best in my opinion is to use Y for jumping, so I can't change that. I need L set to special so I can do the Flight of Ganon. The X-Z switch sounds interesting, and I will try it. Interesting stuff.
 

CR4SH

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 22, 2008
Messages
1,814
Location
Louisville Ky.
Just as a response to "your hand naturally arcs from the cstick to X" idea. More people than you realize hit A with the knuckle of their thumb and Y with the tip of it. I think, honestly that it's a better way to jump and use A, since your thumb is on both buttons simultaneously. However this can make using the cstick trickier.

Also, why would you rest your right finger on Z instead of Y? If the spring is an issue, take it out.

I personally use a funky control scheme, and I think it works really well. I have both of my trigger springs removed. L is set to jump, R is for shielding. Tap jump is off. Y is set to grab and X to special. The reason I have X as special is I'm trying to learn to use both B and X alternating to get luigi's Down+B to gain maximum height. Otherwise, I don't use X anyway.
 

Deoxys

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
1,118
Location
near Boston, MA
I perform Shuttle Loop OoS with virtually 100% success without tap jump. I swap Y and Z.

The only real disadvantage of tap jump off is that you can't get out of meteors as quickly.
 

BobSmith006

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
55
Location
IN, U.S.
I keep Tap Jump Off and switch L to jump. I mainly do that so I can autocancel Falcon's and Ganon's dair more easily. I think I'll have to try out the various ideas thrown out here too.
 

Hype

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 17, 2008
Messages
1,688
Location
Mississauga, Ontario
I actually put quite a bit of thought into this a while ago.

We came up with almost exatcly the same control schemes.

The only difference is that I always have my right index finger on z and my right middle finger on R.

from there I changed R to attack. this enables me to Nair with keeping my finger on the C-stick the whoel time (which I do in the air).
 

Kirio

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
148
Location
Williamsport, PA
I just read the posts by Natch so my apologies if I'm beating a dead horse.

Optimal control scheme should entirely disclude both of the shoulder buttons, or at least make them for something less important than airdodging and shielding. They take more time to activate than any other control mechanism and should therefore be used as a last resort imo.

I believe that if you change z to jump and x to grab you should change y to shield. This frees up your right index finger for solely jumping (for those who switch from z to r). Shield grabbing becomes a simply roll to the x or a button in exchange for quicker dodges and shielding. yup.

This is under the assumption that controller modifications are barred from play, including removal of the trigger springs.
 

Deoxys

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
1,118
Location
near Boston, MA
I just read the posts by Natch so my apologies if I'm beating a dead horse.

Optimal control scheme should entirely disclude both of the shoulder buttons, or at least make them for something less important than airdodging and shielding. They take more time to activate than any other control mechanism and should therefore be used as a last resort imo.

I believe that if you change z to jump and x to grab you should change y to shield. This frees up your right index finger for solely jumping (for those who switch from z to r). Shield grabbing becomes a simply roll to the x or a button in exchange for quicker dodges and shielding. yup.

This is under the assumption that controller modifications are barred from play, including removal of the trigger springs.
I mean you could just get in the habit of having the triggers partially depressed all the time.

How does one remove their trigger springs?
 

Hylian

Not even death can save you from me
Administrator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 9, 2004
Messages
23,165
Location
Missouri
Switch FC
2687-7494-5103
Hmm...

I use default settings and play double claw.

It would be insulting to my tech skill to change my controller settings :).
 

teluoborg

Smash Otter
Premium
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
4,060
Location
Paris, France
NNID
teloutre
What does claw mean here ?


Also, am I the only one that uses more than 4 finger to play with a ngc controller ?
I mean, why do everybody choose between Z and R when you can put a finger on each ?
 

Tennet

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Messages
2,034
Location
Michigan
What does claw mean here ?


Also, am I the only one that uses more than 4 finger to play with a ngc controller ?
I mean, why do everybody choose between Z and R when you can put a finger on each ?
My friend has his index fingers on Z/ above the L button and his middle fingers on the triggers and the rest of the controller like most people.
 

Deoxys

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
1,118
Location
near Boston, MA
Hmm...

I use default settings and play double claw.

It would be insulting to my tech skill to change my controller settings :).
Double claw!? So you can taunt and buffer a tilt at the same time or something? :laugh:

How often do you accidentally jump w/ tap jump?
What does claw mean here ?


Also, am I the only one that uses more than 4 finger to play with a ngc controller ?
I mean, why do everybody choose between Z and R when you can put a finger on each ?
I do. A lot of people don't like the Z button for some reason.
 

Natch

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
649
Location
San Diego, CA
NNID
Natch42
Hmm...

I use default settings and play double claw.

It would be insulting to my tech skill to change my controller settings :).
Double claw? Tell me where each of your fingers are for that. I'm interested in this.
 
Top Bottom