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The Official Snake Video Critique Thread!

Berserker.

Berserker.

:^)
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Messages
18,990
How about just changing it to just

"snake critique thread"

That's all. Plain and simple. Unless you want something else more, depends
 
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Underload

Lazy
Joined
Nov 1, 2008
Messages
3,433
Location
Morrison, Colorado
Okay, but that basically means I'm jacking Day's thread. I'll change the title for now, but I'll also leave this here for her:

If you don't like it, change it back. Deal?
 
Max113

Max113

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 18, 2010
Messages
190
Unfortunately, it took like three week to FINALLY get someone to record this so... I'm better now.

But anyway, here it is: Max (Snake) vs Defender (Bowser)

Just a side note, I'm a huge fan of Ally and it would be no exaggeration to say I learned Snake from his vids... (In short: I try to play a lot like him...)

BTW... I DO know how to momentum cancel with snake now...
 
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Lazy
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Morrison, Colorado
I know. I only stickied this a few days ago. I'm working on getting a few things in this forum going, including this critique thread. I just have to endure 4 days of exit finals at school this week, and then I'm off and ready to work on this here place. Until then, the Europeans need to majorly **** off.
 
napZzz

napZzz

Smash Hero
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Messages
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cg, MN
unfortunately they're pretty correct in the fact noones ever gonna check this **** lmao
 
S

Shinjin

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 31, 2010
Messages
40
Yeah, it'd be nice if we could have a couple educated Snake players to make a commitment to doing this. Like, actually get them to literally say that they've agreed to try and critique some videos.

'Cause it's a really helpful tool, and hopefully also help bring some new Snakes to the boards. I know I'd do my best to record a few videos if I thought it'd really help improve my game, but this thread's falling apart. Think we can do this?

I don't think I'm qualified to give a lot of help, but here's what I saw at a glance, Skety:
(I haven't seen all five videos)

Video 1:
At 0:14, you walk off the stage grenade in hand and are forced to use the Up-B to get back to stage. Up-B's a hugely compromising position for Snake, espec. against MK, no need to put yourself in that situation. Shield drop a nade, soft toss or cook another, but no need to run off-stage.

At 0:22, you whiff an n-air when he's far across the stage out of range when you start it. It's a long move, there's no way he'll walk into it, and you got punished for it with the grab.

Throughout the first minute, MK's just kind of running free, just having grenade's out on the field forces him to move in ways that may not be optimal. You shouldn't ever be just waiting around.

At 1:08 or so, you leap off-stage to try to f-air spike him. This is the big one, I think, you try to approach a lot, you're very aggressive, whether it's an n-air or the numerous Snake dashes, and this f-air stands out. Snake's tend to benefit from more defensive playstyles, especially when someone can punish you as much as MK with the tiniest slip-up. I understand that may be your preferred method of play, but never feel the needs to approach him, especially since he has no projectiles.
Snake's edge-guarding game isn't off the stage, it's with careful set up grenades and mines that make it hard to get back on. D-smash is a neat tool, as is the C4. If he comes back on a ledge attack, Up-Tilt or shield grab or f-tilt or anything is a viable option. If he planks a little bit, whatever, you don't have to stand right there. Snake's got surprisingly good range on options with his edge-guards.

haha I think that'll help a lot, more of the same in the second minute, a few n-airs and the rest of the time you're just shielding out his attacks, more grenades and f-tilt punishing on his approaches'd be neat.

Fun little f-air spike around 2:00, sucks that MK's recovery's so good. You gotta be careful though, the faster you can get back to a safe position on-stage the better. Shuttle Loop stage spikes easily, and your choice of ledge attack might've not been the best, jumping up from there might've been safer.

I'm getting a little bit lazier as time goes on, but the general thing is, don't feel compelled to approach and improve your general grenade game, which should improve your snake all around. Just a C4 and two grenades on the field can force him to move in ways that open him up for punishment from other attacks, not to mention warding off the tornado. Also, careful with the recoveries, wavebouncing the grenades might help get you back to stage.
 
Underload

Underload

Lazy
Joined
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Messages
3,433
Location
Morrison, Colorado
Shinjin said:
Yeah, it'd be nice if we could have a couple educated Snake players to make a commitment to doing this. Like, actually get them to literally say that they've agreed to try and critique some videos.

'Cause it's a really helpful tool, and hopefully also help bring some new Snakes to the boards. I know I'd do my best to record a few videos if I thought it'd really help improve my game, but this thread's falling apart. Think we can do this?
Click to expand...
I'm on it.
 
S

Shinjin

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 31, 2010
Messages
40
I think he's referencing his post on page three, the shreds of the URL seem to click. It's this one, with a video up for review:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10282439&postcount=38
The Youtube Video in question: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4A2tM3kuc8Q

I don't know if I'm qualified to comment on it, I honestly think you're a better Snake than I am.

Just some observations, though:
I liked the more liberal up-tilt usage than I've seen in most other videos, especially right off the start of the vid. Around 4:02-4:03 you start fishing for it though, the jab might be safer, and it might be a good idea to keep it a little more fresh and avoid staling it when he's at 70-80% or so and nearing kill percentages. You popped an up-tilt successfully at 120-121% on his second stock that didn't kill, and it wasn't his DI that saved him.

You get punished hard for a d-air coming back on stage at 4:09, but I don't think that's a playstyle error, just a mistake of the moment.

There's a couple of n-airs where he's well out of range at 4:48-4:53, and he ends up camping you with d-air pretty successfully. He does the whole d-air camp thing throughout the match actually, although I don't exactly know the best way to counter this. Soft toss semi-cooked grenades? The n-air's nice, but he can float out of reach most of the time since it's pretty easy to see and react to if the first kick doesn't hit.

I got class in a few minutes, should start walking down, but I'll tack on more later maybe. Again, take it with a grain of salt, you're a better Snake than I am. Just third-party observations
 
Max113

Max113

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 18, 2010
Messages
190
Ok, If NO ONE plans to be critiqueing anyone here, I suppose I could. :/

I don't claim to be pro, or for that matter, probably not even very good, but I think it would be good for this thread to at least show some kind of life...

So go ahead and post, and I'll do my best. :D
 
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Underload

Lazy
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Morrison, Colorado
The only way to learn is to practice. If you feel like critiquing, go ahead. I've been ignoring this thread majorly, it's time to change that. This critique is @Tommy.

In short, you need to cook your grenades A LOT more. You almost always tossed your grenades immediately after pulling them, unless you were in the air. If you were in the air, you'd put your shield up on the first possible frame, and then proceed to throw the grenade immediately :p So, yeah, if there's anything you need to focus on, it's that.

Next, you're doing waaaaay too much approaching. When you think about it, approaching vs. Peach is one of the dumbest options you could take, simply because Peach has minimal options if you decide to camp her. So, against Kyle, stay the **** back. Combine this advice with the nade cooking advice, set up a wall of mortars / C4 / grenades, and watch the rage happen. Really, Snake's a weird character, but you're trying to use him like a traditional approaching character, like Falcon.

I love your aerial maneuverability. It's better than mine. You don't always go for the same spots, it's great.

Stop the rolling and the spotdodging. Rolling back is acceptable at times, but rolling forward and spotdodging are both terrible ideas.

The utilt usage is excessive on purpose, right? If so, good, but only really spam utilt vs. Peach. Be wary of how much you spam it, though, you don't want it to be completely stale.

Keeping Peach grounded does wonders. She floats a lot and approaches with aerials, so why give her the luxury? Punish with dthrows whenever possible, and try extending techchases instead of reading and ftilting. You didn't really have a problem with this, it's just some general advice.

The shielding's good. Peach is an annoying good poking character, never try to spotdodge / roll OoS. Always shield until the aerial's over, and see if the Peach wants to cover the last aerial with another one. Say, if she dairs, and wants to follow-up with a ff nair, then just keep shielding. If it's dair -> fair, you can probably sneak away with a roll or sumdat.

Overall, you need some work. You're giving a mediocre character waaaaaay too many openings and freedoms. You're Snake dammit, shut her down. I know they're friendlies, but still, you need to practice the correct stuff.
 
TommyDerMeister

TommyDerMeister

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 24, 2008
Messages
1,837
Location
AZ
Shinjin said:
I don't know if I'm qualified to comment on it, I honestly think you're a better Snake than I am.

Just some observations, though:
I liked the more liberal up-tilt usage than I've seen in most other videos, especially right off the start of the vid. Around 4:02-4:03 you start fishing for it though, the jab might be safer, and it might be a good idea to keep it a little more fresh and avoid staling it when he's at 70-80% or so and nearing kill percentages. You popped an up-tilt successfully at 120-121% on his second stock that didn't kill, and it wasn't his DI that saved him.

You get punished hard for a d-air coming back on stage at 4:09, but I don't think that's a playstyle error, just a mistake of the moment.

There's a couple of n-airs where he's well out of range at 4:48-4:53, and he ends up camping you with d-air pretty successfully. He does the whole d-air camp thing throughout the match actually, although I don't exactly know the best way to counter this. Soft toss semi-cooked grenades? The n-air's nice, but he can float out of reach most of the time since it's pretty easy to see and react to if the first kick doesn't hit.
Click to expand...

Underload said:
In short, you need to cook your grenades A LOT more. You almost always tossed your grenades immediately after pulling them, unless you were in the air. If you were in the air, you'd put your shield up on the first possible frame, and then proceed to throw the grenade immediately :p So, yeah, if there's anything you need to focus on, it's that.

Next, you're doing waaaaay too much approaching. When you think about it, approaching vs. Peach is one of the dumbest options you could take, simply because Peach has minimal options if you decide to camp her. So, against Kyle, stay the **** back. Combine this advice with the nade cooking advice, set up a wall of mortars / C4 / grenades, and watch the rage happen. Really, Snake's a weird character, but you're trying to use him like a traditional approaching character, like Falcon.

I love your aerial maneuverability. It's better than mine. You don't always go for the same spots, it's great.

Stop the rolling and the spotdodging. Rolling back is acceptable at times, but rolling forward and spotdodging are both terrible ideas.

The utilt usage is excessive on purpose, right? If so, good, but only really spam utilt vs. Peach. Be wary of how much you spam it, though, you don't want it to be completely stale.

Keeping Peach grounded does wonders. She floats a lot and approaches with aerials, so why give her the luxury? Punish with dthrows whenever possible, and try extending techchases instead of reading and ftilting. You didn't really have a problem with this, it's just some general advice.

The shielding's good. Peach is an annoying good poking character, never try to spotdodge / roll OoS. Always shield until the aerial's over, and see if the Peach wants to cover the last aerial with another one. Say, if she dairs, and wants to follow-up with a ff nair, then just keep shielding. If it's dair -> fair, you can probably sneak away with a roll or sumdat.

Overall, you need some work. You're giving a mediocre character waaaaaay too many openings and freedoms. You're Snake dammit, shut her down. I know they're friendlies, but still, you need to practice the correct stuff.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the critiques guys. That was my Snake after not playing him for about a month, maybe more, since maining Falcon.

The excessive utilt usage was intended, but I really only use it in excess against Peach. As reliable of a kill move utilt is on Peach at higher percents, I personally feel that Snake, since almost all of his moves have KO potential, that i can find a way to kill other than utilt.

That dair at 4:09 was me trying to be greedy as usual trying to kill with something cool/random, in AZ we like to RISK IT ALL and that was me doing just that, I probably wouldn't do something like that in tourney though.

After rewatching the video, i realize I really don't cook grenades enough. I think I just like to always have grenades out there to sort of get control of the stage better, which isn't bad, but i guess some situations are better where I'm controller more than just the stage.

The spot dodging/rolling is something I've been told before in the past that I do too much of. It's hard for me to break bad habits I guess.

Yeah I wouldn't doubt that I approach so much/so hard because of Falcon, or just because I'm a Melee player (Who mains Ganon and Falcon)

Thanks for liking my aerial mobility.

I need to keep that hoe on the ground, shut her down, and break my bad habits.
 
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Lazy
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Messages
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Morrison, Colorado
I totally forgot you play Melee. That's probably what's causing some of your problems. I always get screwed up after I play Melee, even for just a little while. The effects last a hell of a long time too, it affects me to the point that I've stopped playing Melee altogether. :( I was starting to impress the locals, too.

Easiest way for you to improve is just slow down and think during a match. In between stocks, try to remember the previous stock, what you did correctly, and what you totally forgot you're trying to correct. It really does wonders, at least for me.
 
TommyDerMeister

TommyDerMeister

Smash Lord
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Jun 24, 2008
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AZ
switching between both never bothers me. i guess i'm just used to it.

yeah, i still play pretty aggro from melee to brawl. i really should slow down a bit.

lol, i'm high
 
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Lazy
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You're too simplistic with your camping. I mean really, in your first video, for the first 45 seconds or so, you camped by pulling a grenade, waiting a few seconds, and throwing it. That's WAY too easy to predict and counter. Definitely mix it up. Pull nade -> shield drop -> pull another grenade and hard toss it -> uncharged usmash -> SHADCT the grenade at your feet, something like that. That's just an example I felt like using.

Use less jab. A lot less jab. It really isn't that great. If you're screwing up jab1 -> ftilt, then just cut out the jab1 completely. Jab gets shielded too easily, and you even got a stock taken off of you because you just stood there rapid jabbing.

I always say punish with grabs, but you're not punishing at all. Learn to boost grab, and punish with that. If you can obviously get a ftilt off, then by all means go for it, but I highly recommend you just punish stupidity with grabs. Also remember, if the opponent shields your ftilt1, don't throw out the 2nd hit. It's never a good situation to put yourself in.

Spotdodging is usually bad. I didn't see too much of it in the video I watched, but it could potentially become a problem. Just be wary. If you need to get out of a bad situation, walk away. Back roll is acceptable too, I guess, but walking away is always what I recommend you do.

Ganon always gets stupid **** off, because that's the only thing Ganon players have to rely on. Know that fact, stay campy to keep DLA away from you, and avoid bad situations. It's easy for me to recommend you do that, but it's a bit harder to learn how to do it and implement it in-game.

Hope I helped.
 
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Underload

Lazy
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Messages
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Morrison, Colorado
Ehh, Sonic is like the one character I know absolutely nothing about. Do you possibly have anything else I could use? I'll give it a go if you don't have anything else, but no promises...
 
Morningstar

Morningstar

Smash Journeyman
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Nah... Espy's the really only person who uploads my videos in San Antonio >_>

Any other video is like, super out of date.
 
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Underload

Lazy
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K.

The first video is purdy impressive. One of the few things I've learned about Sonic is that jab kills some of his approaches, and you figured that out pretty quickly. If you've got something that effective, use it as much as necessary. Utilt kills some approaches, too, and I saw you use that a few times. Make it a habit, otherwise, good **** on that.

Spotdodging from the ledge into the stage is almost always bad, so is rolling away from the edge. Those are two of the most common habits I've encountered, and you did both at some point in the first video. If you need to ledgehop, don't cover it with a spotdodge, time it so you land on the stage as soon as possible and get your shield up. Much safer, much less punishable.

Dair is always bad for DI, especially if you use it late. There were 3 times I remember you using dair to DI, and every time you used it, it came out really late. That's stupid to do and easily punishable, especially by the speedy rodent that is Sonic. He almost got you on it, too.

You're pretty sound with techchasing, but try not to DACUS when techchasing. Boost grabbing is a bit of a higher risk, but also a much higher reward. I'm specifically referring to 1:03. You easily could've boost grabbed him and continued the techchase.

You get ancy at times. Especially when Sonic's in kill percentage. Instead of kicking back, camping, and increasing your lead, you'll run up, shield, and try to get a random-*** utilt off or something. Don't do that. You're mother****ing Snake, you live until 200%+ all the time, there's no need for you to approach and give Sonic a free shot to build some percentage.

Lastly, watch the spotdodging. Sonic doesn't kill for ****, but you randomly spotdodging when he runs toward you isn't helping. It's so easy for a good Sonic to just wait, charge a fsmash to bait a spotdodge, and nail you after the spotdodge. Walk away, roll back, or shield.

That's all I pulled from the 1st video. I might do the second one later, if you don't think this is enough.
 
Morningstar

Morningstar

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In regards to the 2nd video, I don't know what to do vs. Sonic on YI. Maybe I'm thinking about it too hard though. Pretty sure going to the opposite side of the stage the Sonic is doing the invincible spin-dash on and nade camping would work but I didn't think about it then, I was more like "**** yeah, I won the first match so let's play impatiently!" but then I got my lunch packed. xD No johns on the last game... I just dropped the ball.

Espy rushes in a lot and messes up my spacing so I get impatient and try to run in there to mess with his sometimes... but it doesn't work and it shouldn't.

And I'll work on all those little habits you mentioned. Thanks, g. :)
 
Max113

Max113

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 18, 2010
Messages
190
Underload said:
You're too simplistic with your camping. I mean really, in your first video, for the first 45 seconds or so, you camped by pulling a grenade, waiting a few seconds, and throwing it. That's WAY too easy to predict and counter. Definitely mix it up. Pull nade -> shield drop -> pull another grenade and hard toss it -> uncharged usmash -> SHADCT the grenade at your feet, something like that. That's just an example I felt like using.

Use less jab. A lot less jab. It really isn't that great. If you're screwing up jab1 -> ftilt, then just cut out the jab1 completely. Jab gets shielded too easily, and you even got a stock taken off of you because you just stood there rapid jabbing.

I always say punish with grabs, but you're not punishing at all. Learn to boost grab, and punish with that. If you can obviously get a ftilt off, then by all means go for it, but I highly recommend you just punish stupidity with grabs. Also remember, if the opponent shields your ftilt1, don't throw out the 2nd hit. It's never a good situation to put yourself in.

Spotdodging is usually bad. I didn't see too much of it in the video I watched, but it could potentially become a problem. Just be wary. If you need to get out of a bad situation, walk away. Back roll is acceptable too, I guess, but walking away is always what I recommend you do.

Ganon always gets stupid **** off, because that's the only thing Ganon players have to rely on. Know that fact, stay campy to keep DLA away from you, and avoid bad situations. It's easy for me to recommend you do that, but it's a bit harder to learn how to do it and implement it in-game.

Hope I helped.
Click to expand...
Thanks, I only really used jab so much because Jab > Ganon's ground options. :p

I'd say that I figured him out by game 3 so check it out if ya want. :)

But anyway that was good, thanks.
 
G

g2g4gold

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 12, 2010
Messages
51
Hey guys! I managed to get the Infinite Replay code on my Wii, so I'm thinking of getting some videos up as soon as I can before this Saturday (my first tourney).

Problem is, I might not have access to a decent human opponent the next few days. Would it be cool if I posted a video with a computer character just for now, until I can get a better one up? Hoping to get as much critique as I can!
 
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