The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Jaxi]

Nope. Wobb is uber and most likely always will be unless I'm missing something.

 

[GofG]

Just make it so that eveyone who wins a tourney with MK gets pad less money!! I iz genius.

Holy ****.

This is amazing.

 

[Steeler]

Nope. Wobb is uber and most likely always will be unless I'm missing something.

my bad, i haven't kept up with competitive pokemon. i guess they unbanned wobba for a bit but re-banned once people complained (rightfully so).

 

[infomon]

my bad, i haven't kept up with competitive pokemon. i guess they unbanned wobba for a bit but re-banned once people complained (rightfully so).

Heh, sounds like the scrubby situation that we're trying to avoid: banning and unbanning characters so every few months the game changes on you if you're not paying attention. Just sayin'.

Spoiler

10trollbaits

 

[da K.I.D.]

its not all that scrubby, really.

they are just doing whats best for their competitive envioronment.
at one point wobb was OP, some time had passed, and they needed to be sure that they made the right decision, so they brought him back. at that point he was still OP and bad for competition so they rebanned him. thats not scrubby, that covering all of your bases. Theres nothing wrong with that except the fact that those semicompetitive players will be confused for a little while, and thats not that huge of a problem

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

my bad, i haven't kept up with competitive pokemon. i guess they unbanned wobba for a bit but re-banned once people complained (rightfully so).

The only pokemon I know that has ever been UNbanned is Deoxys-S

 

[Mocha19]

Anyone know how to delete smashboards accounts?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Wobbuffet was perfectly fine; he was rebanned just because most of the top players didn't find the game fun with him (and I'm not even joking). There is no objective evidence that he's even that good, let alone broken. He's just radical, and like I said, most people find his lockdown oriented style just plain obnoxious. At least Meta Knight is doing well statistically; Wobbuffet was putting forth a truly mediocre performance statistically. The process was just a vote, and I'm pretty sure I saw this style of post more than once:

"Wobbuffet is gay; let's ban it."

I should point out the power struggle that happened. Smogon was the longstanding hub of competitive Pokemon. Netbattle (the old simulator) was replaced by Shoddy Battle on which smogon did not have a server. Colin (the owner of the server) took the advice of several of the more liberal members of the community (such as me) and made the Official Server the vessel through which Deoxys-s and Wobbuffet were unbanned and the rather dubious event moves were removed from standard play. Loads of people complained because the majority of the Pokemon community is hyper-conservative and ban-happy (but for some reason love using Wish Blissey). Playing to win is definitely not popular; there are no stakes and a shockingly large number of players have bizarre, anti-competitive mindsets. The top brass at smogon realized the way things were going put no effective control in their hands (they weren't really doing much of anything for a long time but maintained control "on paper") and made their own server and were then responsive to the whining of the masses by implementing a few voting schemes to roll back the changes made on the Official Server and also to address other top complaints. As of now, Wobbuffet was rebanned pretty much by everyone saying they hate him, event moves were added back because everyone liked using them, and Garchomp was railroaded despite the suspect ladder scheme showing a MORE centralized game without him (the ladder was so flawed that this really doesn't prove anything anyway). As of now, their current project is rolling back Deoxys-s. He has no hope at all of passing their current scheme, and after he's gone, they're going to ban Shaymin-s (the new addition from Platinum).

Seriously, smash should do its best at this point to avoid emulating the Pokemon community at all. I have been a member of the Pokemon community for a long time, and I can say now that the situation in it for making good competitive rulesets is 100% hopeless (hope died with Garchomp). If you want smash rules to be appeals to numbers where we operate on a "when in doubt, ban!" philosophy, I guess the Pokemon model is for you.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

He's just radical, and like I said, most people find his lockdown oriented style just plain obnoxious.

Skarmbliss wha~~~

they're going to ban Shaymin-s (the new addition from Platinum).

Who cares? It's not even a hedgehog.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Wobby has to be banned b/c Wobby vs Wobby = infinte stall battle

 

[Espy Rose]

Skarmbliss wha~~~



Who cares? It's not even a hedgehog.

Win on both accounts...

Has anyone else read Napi's post? This should be done now!

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Wobby has to be banned b/c Wobby vs Wobby = infinte stall battle

and with leftovers, he would recover more damage each turn than he would do with struggle... adn shadowtag meant he couldn't switch out.

he was broken.... but not in the sense of being to good, but, rather, because it could completely screw up a match beyond all hope of salvation.

 

[ColinJF]

That isn't even true. Both Wobbuffets can switch (Shadow Tag doesn't affect targets with Shadow Tag) and Struggle does 25% of your max health as recoil, which is more than you can recover through any combination of effects.

The real reason Wobbuffet was banned is that the community wasn't willing to give him a chance because evidently he wasn't very fun. (Or some people thought that not being able to switch was just wrong on some sort of unwritten principle, but didn't support banning the likes of Dugtrio and Trapinch...)

 

[ShadowLink84]

That isn't even true. Both Wobbuffets can switch (Shadow Tag doesn't affect targets with Shadow Tag) and Struggle does 25% of your max health as recoil, which is more than you can recover through any combination of effects.

The real reason Wobbuffet was banned is that the community wasn't willing to give him a chance because evidently he wasn't very fun. (Or some people thought that not being able to switch was just wrong on some sort of unwritten principle, but didn't support banning the likes of Dugtrio and Trapinch...)

Extremely unfun.
Being unable to switch basically means that unless you OHKO (at which point destiny bond screws you) you're basically dead.

So at the best scenario you kill the wobbuffet and lose a pokemon for yourself.
Which isn't very good depending what kind of team you are running.

Wobbuffet isn't necessarily broken as Mewtwo or Rayquazaor Arceus per say, its more of an issue on how much he limits things when he comes out.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

Exactly, he completely changes the game when he hits the field. But honestly I thought he was fun, I love him in casuals against my brother.

Oh, and 25% recovery is possible. Ingrain+leech seed+leftovers I believe gets you enough. But the setup is near impossible to get and most people who learn both leech and ingrain suck, or have much better setups. Just for fun.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Leech seed is good and Ludicolo can regain 25% via Lefties + L33ch + Rain

 

[ShadowLink84]

I still abuse ninjask's speed >_> *shot*

Its fun to use at times.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

I know, I love leech seed, I meant ingrain sucks.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I've never used ingrain...it seems...too...sucky.

It just says, switch in something that will utterly slaughter me. (unless your wobbuffet >_>)

Ahh I remember onetime when my aggron focus punched a blissey.

It was...bliss.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

and thus, version two of this thread lowers itself to the ground and dies silently...

...SAKURAAAIII

 

[ShadowLink84]

CURSE YOU CENSOR!

Edit: Is bypassing it in a second.

 

[Dojo]

Let's get back on topic. This is brawl, not pokemon. >.>


Ok, here's what I've seen and noticed.

Santi has NEVER lost to an MK in tourney had it not been mine. I don't recall him ever even dropping a match to an MK in tourney besides mine. He just beat a decently well known MK by the name of Affinity 2-0 in tourney. He's beaten all other Texas MK's including Infinity(Top 10 in Texas) in a 2-1 friendly. He went to 1 stock with M2K mid percent in the one friendly they've had. M2K had alot of trouble and considered Santi one of the best in Texas from what he said.

If he can do that with TOON LINK, it can be done with many other characters. He's managed to learn the matchup great enough to keep up with the world's best MK. I couldn't even do that....

This game can never be examined as played at the highest level because nobody will ever reach that level. There are too many variables to consider with "The perfect spacing, timing, and mindgames." Not to mention the random bull Sakurai had to put in. (Tripping, Controller ports, etc.)

Although a much harder job for the opponent, they can propel themselves far enough to overcome MK's. But what kind of competitive game is this if the common goal is not to improve yourselves to levels greater than you could imagine taking yourself.

I can almost guarantee that a low tier will hardly EVER win a tournament with or without MK. Banning him isn't going to change things for them. They're always gonna have terrible matchups and hard times. (Unless an unfound tech bring thems out of the gutter.)

But if characters as low as mid are bringing down MK's and keeping up with the worlds best at a "Horribly disadvantaged matchup" then other people can bring up other characters to that level as well.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Dojo, do you consider yourself a better player than Santi?

 

[ShadowLink84]

However that does not take into consideration the behavior of your opponent.
yes you can play 5x harder but the opponent isn't going to adapt during the match.

They have a greater number of options for countering the strategies that you would use against them.

So yes while it is possible to certainly beat an MK, for some characters this feat is much too difficult considering the MK user can also adapt to the situation at hand.

Other than that i agree with what you said. Just a factor that needs to be taken into account.

 

[Dojo]

I just asked Santi. We're in the same class. I told him to answer honestly.
He said yeah.

Honestly, I can never tell you. I read him alot better than he does me. But that's just from playing for so long. I've beaten him with more than just MK.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Blargh why does everyone live so far away?

 

[Overswarm]

Santi has NEVER lost to an MK in tourney had it not been mine. I don't recall him ever even dropping a match to an MK in tourney besides mine. He just beat a decently well known MK by the name of Affinity 2-0 in tourney. He's beaten all other Texas MK's including Infinity(Top 10 in Texas) in a 2-1 friendly. He went to 1 stock with M2K mid percent in the one friendly they've had. M2K had alot of trouble and considered Santi one of the best in Texas from what he said.

Is this because he has experience against TL, or because the MKs don't have experience against TL?

I don't think it is coincidence that the MK he plays the most consistently beats him. I had trouble with Q's Toon Link the first few times I played it with MK... then I learned how to edgeguard and the matchup was over.

 

[choknater]

Let's get back on topic. This is brawl, not pokemon. >.>


Ok, here's what I've seen and noticed.

Santi has NEVER lost to an MK in tourney had it not been mine. I don't recall him ever even dropping a match to an MK in tourney besides mine. He just beat a decently well known MK by the name of Affinity 2-0 in tourney. He's beaten all other Texas MK's including Infinity(Top 10 in Texas) in a 2-1 friendly. He went to 1 stock with M2K mid percent in the one friendly they've had. M2K had alot of trouble and considered Santi one of the best in Texas from what he said.

If he can do that with TOON LINK, it can be done with many other characters. He's managed to learn the matchup great enough to keep up with the world's best MK. I couldn't even do that....

This game can never be examined as played at the highest level because nobody will ever reach that level. There are too many variables to consider with "The perfect spacing, timing, and mindgames." Not to mention the random bull Sakurai had to put in. (Tripping, Controller ports, etc.)

Although a much harder job for the opponent, they can propel themselves far enough to overcome MK's. But what kind of competitive game is this if the common goal is not to improve yourselves to levels greater than you could imagine taking yourself.

I can almost guarantee that a low tier will hardly EVER win a tournament with or without MK. Banning him isn't going to change things for them. They're always gonna have terrible matchups and hard times. (Unless an unfound tech bring thems out of the gutter.)

But if characters as low as mid are bringing down MK's and keeping up with the worlds best at a "Horribly disadvantaged matchup" then other people can bring up other characters to that level as well.

I love this post.

 

[Koga]

Let's get back on topic. This is brawl, not pokemon. >.>


Ok, here's what I've seen and noticed.

Santi has NEVER lost to an MK in tourney had it not been mine. I don't recall him ever even dropping a match to an MK in tourney besides mine. He just beat a decently well known MK by the name of Affinity 2-0 in tourney. He's beaten all other Texas MK's including Infinity(Top 10 in Texas) in a 2-1 friendly. He went to 1 stock with M2K mid percent in the one friendly they've had. M2K had alot of trouble and considered Santi one of the best in Texas from what he said.

If he can do that with TOON LINK, it can be done with many other characters. He's managed to learn the matchup great enough to keep up with the world's best MK. I couldn't even do that....

This game can never be examined as played at the highest level because nobody will ever reach that level. There are too many variables to consider with "The perfect spacing, timing, and mindgames." Not to mention the random bull Sakurai had to put in. (Tripping, Controller ports, etc.)

Although a much harder job for the opponent, they can propel themselves far enough to overcome MK's. But what kind of competitive game is this if the common goal is not to improve yourselves to levels greater than you could imagine taking yourself.

I can almost guarantee that a low tier will hardly EVER win a tournament with or without MK. Banning him isn't going to change things for them. They're always gonna have terrible matchups and hard times. (Unless an unfound tech bring thems out of the gutter.)

But if characters as low as mid are bringing down MK's and keeping up with the worlds best at a "Horribly disadvantaged matchup" then other people can bring up other characters to that level as well.

QFFT!

This is what needs to be understood. Sure it is really tough to beat a good MK, but we as players need to get good enough that what was once really difficult is standard level of play.

oh and Dojo wins this thread

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Toon link deserves better than middle teir. he's one of the better matchups against MK so where he's arbitrarily bee placed is irrelevant. As long as Santi had enough of a skill advantage over his oponents' MKs, he SHOULD be winning.

Is this because he has experience against TL, or because the MKs don't have experience against TL?

I don't think it is coincidence that the MK he plays the most consistently beats him. I had trouble with Q's Toon Link the first few times I played it with MK... then I learned how to edgeguard and the matchup was over.

I agree with this. Toonie has notoriously low representation for some innane reason. The MKs were likely NOT used to such a good toonie

 

[infomon]

At this point it almost seems too easy to use the Pokémon scene as an example of what we must not emulate in Smash with MK..... as it sounds like Pokémon was (no surprise) a little scrubby and doesn't accept the conventional rules of competition.

But then again, Pokémon is a veeerry different game; hundreds of cards, where certain situations can cause a definite stall in the game. Whatever the details, I'm willing to accept that the challenge of keeping Pokémon competitive is categorically different from a game like Brawl. So we shouldn't look too closely at Pokémon as a potential dystopia.

That aside, I think most of us here would agree that MK is close to ban-worthy. He's definitely the best character, and by a margin that seems to be ruling all the other characters out of competition. This is only a trend, and there are still numerous non-MK players making it within the top positions of major tournaments. So IMO he's not bannable yet, but now is the time to establish what ban criteria for MK should be, in a way that our community can more or less unanimously accept a ban if/when the time comes.

Here's what I think we should do. We follow the best tournaments over the next few months, and gather videos of the best non-MK players vs. the best MKs; as much as possible we need to see matches between MK and his worst matchups. Then we can analyze these matches, and see what mistakes the non-MK player makes throughout the match, keeping in mind that they're one of the best of that main so far. If we can find obvious mistakes in their playstyle that allowed MK to take advantage of them, like in the much-lauded Dojo vs. Santi videos, then we know we need to work harder at that matchup. But if we can find a few examples of MK's worst matchups having no reasonable chance of winning against the MK, then we can scratch that character off the list. It might serve as an indication that the theoretical matchup number is either wrong or just too impractical. Most importantly, we'll have the videos of these matches for future reference; so if that character's game evolves, they can properly decide if/when they think they're ready to challenge the old record vs. MK.

Thoughts? This might help us establish the credibility of Santi vs. non-Dojo MKs

 

[Overswarm]

This toon link example is just a crappier version of the Diddy example people gave when Ninjalink beat M2K a while ago. Everyone flipped the hell out, and what happened? Ninjalink lost to Inui, a 2 week old MK, not too long ago.

At least the diddy example didn't end with the diddy losing to an MK that tournament to an MK.

 

[ShadowLink84]

infzy people are referencing to the Tb video game not the card game which is utter crap. IMO.

 

[Koga]

At this point it almost seems too easy to use the Pokémon scene as an example of what we must not emulate in Smash with MK..... as it sounds like Pokémon was (no surprise) a little scrubby and doesn't accept the conventional rules of competition.

But then again, Pokémon is a veeerry different game; hundreds of cards, where certain situations can cause a definite stall in the game. Whatever the details, I'm willing to accept that the challenge of keeping Pokémon competitive is categorically different from a game like Brawl. So we shouldn't look too closely at Pokémon as a potential dystopia.

That aside, I think most of us here would agree that MK is close to ban-worthy. He's definitely the best character, and by a margin that seems to be ruling all the other characters out of competition. This is only a trend, and there are still numerous non-MK players making it within the top positions of major tournaments. So IMO he's not bannable yet, but now is the time to establish what ban criteria for MK should be, in a way that our community can more or less unanimously accept a ban if/when the time comes.

Here's what I think we should do. We follow the best tournaments over the next few months, and gather videos of the best non-MK players vs. the best MKs; as much as possible we need to see matches between MK and his worst matchups. Then we can analyze these matches, and see what mistakes the non-MK player makes throughout the match, keeping in mind that they're one of the best of that main so far. If we can find obvious mistakes in their playstyle that allowed MK to take advantage of them, like in the much-lauded Dojo vs. Santi videos, then we know we need to work harder at that matchup. But if we can find a few examples of MK's worst matchups having no reasonable chance of winning against the MK, then we can scratch that character off the list. It might serve as an indication that the theoretical matchup number is either wrong or just too impractical. Most importantly, we'll have the videos of these matches for future reference; so if that character's game evolves, they can properly decide if/when they think they're ready to challenge the old record vs. MK.

Thoughts? This might help us establish the credibility of Santi vs. non-Dojo MKs

I like this, though i don't know who could be the best judge of whether or not mistakes cost the match, or just MK goodness.

also, i don't think a few months is long enough to really get a good sample or long enough to allow the metagame to develop.


how about a year from now? that will be a year from when the MK dominance started and we will have really big national tournies to pull from. Cause at a local or even regional level you're more likely to have players that will give up on their mains rather than attempt to further the metagame, but not as much at a national MLG type event.

 

[Espy Rose]

This toon link example is just a crappier version of the Diddy example people gave when Ninjalink beat M2K a while ago. Everyone flipped the hell out, and what happened? Ninjalink lost to Inui, a 2 week old MK, not too long ago.

At least the diddy example didn't end with the diddy losing to an MK that tournament to an MK.

Win

infzy people are referencing to the Tb video game not the card game which is utter crap. IMO.

aaaaand win...

 

[Geist]

Metaknight is a broken character, but he isn't Akuma-good.
Banning him would just be giving into the will of everyone who johns because they lose against metaknight. Snake wins more/just as much anyways.
Ban metaknight, and then it will eventually turn into some crazy butterfly effect that when anyone *****es about anything it gets banned.

FD, fox only, no jumping, no using the same moves twice, if you trip you have to restart the match, no lasers, etc. You watch.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

That aside, I think most of us here would agree that MK is close to ban-worthy. He's definitely the best character, and by a margin that seems to be ruling all the other characters out of competition. This is only a trend, and there are still numerous non-MK players making it within the top positions of major tournaments. So IMO he's not bannable yet, but now is the time to establish what ban criteria for MK should be, in a way that our community can more or less unanimously accept a ban if/when the time comes.

Here's what I think we should do. We follow the best tournaments over the next few months, and gather videos of the best non-MK players vs. the best MKs; as much as possible we need to see matches between MK and his worst matchups. Then we can analyze these matches, and see what mistakes the non-MK player makes throughout the match, keeping in mind that they're one of the best of that main so far. If we can find obvious mistakes in their playstyle that allowed MK to take advantage of them, like in the much-lauded Dojo vs. Santi videos, then we know we need to work harder at that matchup. But if we can find a few examples of MK's worst matchups having no reasonable chance of winning against the MK, then we can scratch that character off the list. It might serve as an indication that the theoretical matchup number is either wrong or just too impractical. Most importantly, we'll have the videos of these matches for future reference; so if that character's game evolves, they can properly decide if/when they think they're ready to challenge the old record vs. MK.

Thoughts? This might help us establish the credibility of Santi vs. non-Dojo MKs

they are talking about the videogame BTW, which has a pretty solid competative scene.

but the second half of your post is good. It's a tall order, but a viable one.... except it means we have to suffer through MK for a few more months then

and overswarm is right about the toonie being the poor man's Diddy Kong in this case.

and blowtoes: read the thread or at least the first page. MK is the only broken character in brawl so for a slippery slope argument this is pretty flimsy

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

lmao @ blowtoes

 

[Espy Rose]

Banning him would just be giving into the will of everyone who johns because they lose against metaknight. Snake wins more/just as much anyways.

This made me lol.

Not according to the lists in the Brawl discussion...doesn't MK have double the amount of points that Snake does?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Not according to the lists in the Brawl discussion...doesn't MK have double the amount of points that Snake does?

Not yet, but the gap between them is still almost 700 points.

And he does have over 3 times the amount of wins that Snake does.