The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Dark.Pch]

Thse links are hardcore. They have my respect.

 

[smashkng]

Din's Fire can't force someone to approach. Extremely easy to spot dodge or air dodge the attack and extremely predictable. But it can be used for edge guarding if the opponent is in a position that air dodge means self destruct.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Who thinks Wario should rise/drop? And Why?

Wario should drop. He's either 4th or 5th depending on how highly you rate the ICs. IMO Snake/MK are 1st and the other 2nd. Diddy is probably 3rd although he might be 2nd too...
I think Diddy > Wario because he does better vs MK.

Looking at the Wario match-up discussion I think the Wario boards are a bit delusional/biased. Wario doesn't go even with MK and he doesn't beat Snake either. Diddy and Wario both go even with Snake (es does D3 although Snake might have the advantage over D3) but Diddy does imo better vs MK, especially on neutral stages.
Wario might have a slight advantage against Diddy ... but I think Diddy does slightly better in most match-ups: Falco (55/45 vs Wario, 5/5 vs Diddy), Marth (6/4 vs Wario, 55/45 vs Diddy), D3 (55/45 vs Wario, 5/5 or worse vs Diddy), G&W (Imo Diddy is G&Ws worst match-up...Wario is like even with G&W) and ICs...

Really, I think it should be something like this:

1. Snake/MK
2. Snake/MK
3. Diddy
4. Wario/ICs
5. Wario/ICs

I'm not sure if Wario is S or A-tier though...either best A-tier or worst S-tier...

 

[Browny]

next tier list better have MK and Snake both in S tier by themselves... It should have been that way since 1.0 :<

A can have like 8 people for all I care lol. Diddy/IC/Wario need to be top though. I think they are sufficiently better than any other candidate for A tier, but not enough to warrant a separate tier and DEFINITELY not worth of being in Snake tier

 

[Nic64]

It should be

E tier
F tier
G tier
H tier
I tier
J tier
K tier

ekans tier *****es

In all seriousness Diddy and IC's are Snake's equals in singles though, if he's S tier so are they. Wario too if you count doubles. But that's all pretty pointless, we all know Meta Knight stands alone.

 

[Nanaki]

It should be

E tier
F tier
G tier
H tier
I tier
J tier
K tier

ekans tier *****es

In all seriousness Diddy and IC's are Snake's equals in singles though, if he's S tier so are they. Wario too if you count doubles. But that's all pretty pointless, we all know Meta Knight stands alone.

I'm gonna go with no. Diddy and IC's aren't even close to Snake's equals in singles. There's absolutely no evidence or justification to back that statement up.

Diddy/Wario/IC's/Falco are pretty interchangeable, though. I'd probably make that A tier. But then we're going to have a list with like 8 tiers again, and people didn't like that. So the top 6 will go in S tier, even though everyone knows MK and Snake are leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else.

 

[Nic64]

People hype Snake way too much, he might not even be the second best character by matchup strength, Wario, IC's, and Diddy are arguably better, Diddy being the shakiest as he has some bad matchups with mid tiers like Peach supposedly, but IC's and Wario have a very solid case, and Falco isn't far off either. Main reason I continue to say Diddy is that I think he does significantly better against MK than Snake or Wario, and generally characters like Peach and Luigi that are supposed to beat him aren't that common in this metagame.

 

[CR4SH]

Why, why, why doesn't everyone in here have mk in a class alone at the top? It's too obvious, and there's no logical argument against it.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Nic64, what do you mean Peach is not that common in this metagame?

 

[Nic64]

There is the "too many tiers is inconvenient" thing, it is annoying, but you are right, no one is in MK's league. When I say Snake is overrated, it's not even that he necessarily should move below anyone else, he just...is clearly not equal to Meta Knight, he is closer to Diddy/Wario/IC's/Falco than MK.

Nic64, what do you mean Peach is not that common in this metagame?

Not as many Peach players as someone like MK or Snake and those that exist face much harder odds. If Diddy is near even with MK/Snake but gets owned by Peach, it's a lot better for him than beating Peach but losing hard to MK or Snake.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I see your point but I find that wierd. WC got a crap load of Peach player.

 

[zeldspazz]

People hype Snake way too much, he might not even be the second best character by matchup strength, Wario, IC's, and Diddy are arguably better, Diddy being the shakiest as he has some bad matchups with mid tiers like Peach supposedly, but IC's and Wario have a very solid case, and Falco isn't far off either. Main reason I continue to say Diddy is that I think he does significantly better against MK than Snake or Wario, and generally characters like Peach and Luigi that are supposed to beat him aren't that common in this metagame.

I disagree actually. Matchups arent really considered in the tier list cus they are made per character boards, so they differ per character board. Some board may overrate or underrate their character. Also, Snake doesnt do "bad" against anybody. Iceclimbers have their hard matchups, since I cant really vouch for any character other than Zelda since Im ignorant of other mid/low tier matchups, Ill just say Zelda gos at least even with Iceclimbers, if not slightly in her advantage. Im sure Wario has his bad matchups as well. Wario doesnt do as good against MK as Snake does, but I think your right that Diddy is as close to a MK counter as you can get. Meh, differing opinions differ. Your entitled to yours.

 

[CR4SH]

I disagree actually. Matchups arent really considered in the tier list cus they are made per character boards, so they differ per character board.

Matchups are the heart and soul of a tier list. More specifically matchups vs. top and high tiers.

Why? Because what defines a character's "quality" is their potential of a character main of X skill level to do well in a tournament, as compared to a similarly skilled character that mains someone else. Tournaments, for the most part, are populated by a majority of top tier, and high number of high tier mains, with a sprinkling of mid to low. This is because the majority of people that attend tournaments regularly are always trying to improve their placements. This lends itself to a gradual settling on a top/high tier main.

I main luigi and second diddy. Because at least half the people I see in tournaments are at least BAD matchups for luigi (mk, marth, gw, ddd most notably, with a side order of rob). On top of that, people with powerful secondaries will often use them in certain matchups. For instance, luigi's matchup with ike isn't really bad, but it's in ike's advantage. On the other hand diddy kong has a highly favorable matchup with ike, so I use diddy in that one on most stages. Because of this, in many tournaments I play at least as much diddy as luigi. Maybe that makes me a diddy main at least part of the time? That's fine with me.

If your character has a fantastic moveset and can handle most of the cast with ease, but sees lots of trouble with the traditional tournament characters, your character is overall bad. That's just the way it is.

Edit: I read that and realized I left out something monumentally important. Matchups, while based in solid reality, are personal. If you play jiggs v gw, your options are very limited because gw's moveset abuses jiggs'. However, what if you personally have an easy time baiting a misspaced or un-autocanceled aerial for punishment multiple times a stock? Well in that case, your jiggs has a fantastic matchup against gw players. Tiers and matchups matter, but they certainly don't define you or your play with your character.

 

[zeldspazz]

Matchups are the heart and soul of a tier list. More specifically matchups vs. top and high tiers.

Why? Because what defines a character's "quality" is their potential of a character main of X skill level to do well in a tournament, as compared to a similarly skilled character that mains someone else. Tournaments, for the most part, are populated by a majority of top tier, and high number of high tier mains, with a sprinkling of mid to low. This is because the majority of people that attend tournaments regularly are always trying to improve their placements. This lends itself to a gradual settling on a top/high tier main.

I main luigi and second diddy. Because at least half the people I see in tournaments are at least BAD matchups for luigi (mk, marth, gw, ddd most notably, with a side order of rob). On top of that, people with powerful secondaries will often use them in certain matchups. For instance, luigi's matchup with ike isn't really bad, but it's in ike's advantage. On the other hand diddy kong has a highly favorable matchup with ike, so I use diddy in that one on most stages. Because of this, in many tournaments I play at least as much diddy as luigi. Maybe that makes me a diddy main at least part of the time? That's fine with me.

If your character has a fantastic moveset and can handle most of the cast with ease, but sees lots of trouble with the traditional tournament characters, your character is overall bad. That's just the way it is.

Edit: I read that and realized I left out something monumentally important. Matchups, while based in solid reality, are personal. If you play jiggs v gw, your options are very limited because gw's moveset abuses jiggs'. However, what if you personally have an easy time baiting a misspaced or un-autocanceled aerial for punishment multiple times a stock? Well in that case, your jiggs has a fantastic matchup against gw players. Tiers and matchups matter, but they certainly don't define you or your play with your character.

I thought tourney results were the heart and soul of the tier list. Then a characters metagame. When discussing a tier lsit, I understand that they take one character's moveset/properties and compares it to another to figure out how well a characters counters the other when discussing the tier list, but they arent going to Zelda Boards and say "well they have her down as a 40:60 disadvantage against Wario, Falco, and Diddy, so she must be bad" if you get my meaning. I was told before that character matchups that we as communities member (not SBRers) make are not used for the tier list.

 

[Nic64]

they arent going to Zelda Boards and say "well they have her down as a 40:60 disadvantage against Wario, Falco, and Diddy, so she must be bad"

The character boards are frequently unreliable sources anyway, but of course matchups get taken into account on some level, there are a lot of factors that do. If it was just tournaments results there wouldn't be a tier list per se, just something like ankoku's rankings, and this wouldn't really accurately depict a characters threat level as it is tainted by representation and other factors.

 

[Kinzer]

...A true tier list anyway.

Tourney results also do play some factor of consideration, as in we can tell which characters are represented where it counts.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

People hype Snake way too much, he might not even be the second best character by matchup strength, Wario, IC's, and Diddy are arguably better, Diddy being the shakiest as he has some bad matchups with mid tiers like Peach supposedly, but IC's and Wario have a very solid case, and Falco isn't far off either. Main reason I continue to say Diddy is that I think he does significantly better against MK than Snake or Wario, and generally characters like Peach and Luigi that are supposed to beat him aren't that common in this metagame.

Wtf?

Snake has like 3 match-up's that are not OBVIOUSLY in his favour (MK, D3 and maybe Wario) ... the only character he arguably has the disadvantage against is MK but even then tourney results (high level at least) show that it's even AT WORST.
Snake has no bad match-up unless it's a ghey CP stage like vs Wario on Brinstar.

Wario loses to Marth, Peach and arguably to D3. He also is like even/slight disadvantage vs Falco and Snake. Snake does better vs MK. Snake does better vs G&W. Snake does better vs Marth. Snake does a hundred times better vs ICs.

Snake is OBVIOUSLY better than Wario and arguably as good as MK.

Why, why, why doesn't everyone in here have mk in a class alone at the top? It's too obvious, and there's no logical argument against it.

Are you living behind the moon? Mind checking tourney results? MK isn't in his own tier AT ALL. Tourney rankings show that Snake is in the same tier even though MK is much better repped than Snake is.

Seriously guys, you all still underrate Snake....he has no bad stage...he has no truly bad match-up...he has a ****load of broken moves. Snake ***** and he's easily 2nd best, if not 1st.

 

[Red Arremer]

No, tournament results are not the heart and soul of any tier list, including this one.

Matchups are the soul and heart of every tier list in other games. Since Smash is stage dependant (tilting matchups into the advantage of one side), matchups can't be the only source.
In order to find out which character does how well, tournament results are taken into account, as well as other things (character potential in general, stage performance, matchups, etc.).

Building on these things, the tier list is created.

 

[etecoon]

Snake has like 3 match-up's that are not OBVIOUSLY in his favour (MK, D3 and maybe Wario) ... the only character he arguably has the disadvantage against is MK but even then tourney results (high level at least) show that it's even AT WORST.
Snake has no bad match-up unless it's a ghey CP stage like vs Wario on Brinstar.

snake loses to DDD, MK, wario, and olimar, and goes even with ROB, DK, marth, pikachu, and maybe falco and diddy. he also has surprisingly non-**** matchups with characters as lowly as captain falcon and sonic(snake boards ranked both as 55:45). no comment on him related to wario, but MK? he doesn't have 55:45 advantage or better vs everyone. and snake's stage weaknesses are still problematic for him as he often has more than one to worry about and can't just ban one and be happy like MK. snake is second best but it's not a close second.

 

[Kinzer]

He also has surprisingly non-**** matchups with characters as lowly as captain falcon and sonic(snake boards ranked both as 55:45).

...Wut?

I wanna know what you're all holding out on us, the majority of the Sonics (I don't think there's any one of us going to say otherwise) all say it's 6:4 Snake's favor.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

snake loses to DDD, MK, wario, and olimar, and goes even with ROB, DK, marth, pikachu, and maybe falco. he also has surprisingly non-**** matchups with characters as lowly as captain falcon and sonic(snake boards ranked both as 55:45). I agree he's better than wario, but his matchups aren't as good as MK who has 55:45 advantage or better vs everyone. and snake's stage weaknesses are still problematic for him as he often has more than one to worry about and can't just ban one and be happy like MK.

Come on guys, don't be stupid.

Snake has an ftilt that comes out in 4 frames and deals 21%
He has an utilt that outranges anything Falcon has and has more priority and is further disjointed too.
Everytime Falcon hits Snake's shield it's 15% dmg for Falco
One grab = ~30% for Falcon

Snake's entire moveset deals more damage, has more range and KOs 10 times earlier than anything Falcon has. It's not 55/45 for Snake. It's at LEAST 7/3...I don't even see why it's not 100/0 for Snake because all he has to do is wait for Falcon to do a move and then **** it with ftilt.

Don't listen to match-up threads when they're OBVIUSLY wrong.

And lmfao @ those "bad" match-ups. You have no evidence AT ALL to back that up.

Snake loses to D3? No way. Seibrik doesn't use D3 vs Snake anymore because he loses to Ally/Afro all the time. Lain loses to Ally all the time too ... no top D3 player thinks that it's higher than 55/45 (and I think CO18 is the only one who thinks so).

Wario doesn't beat Snake either. Tourney results are in Snake's favour and all in all it's just a random claim with no facts to back it up. In other words: BS
Same for Olimar, Marth and DK, who get ***** in tourneys by Snake ever since.

Snake doesn't lose to any of those character except MAYBE MK...

 

[etecoon]

tbh I'd agree with that, matchups are weird though, fox boards are like trying to push that they have an advantage on snake right now and I think snake mauls fox like 65:35 <_< link is probably a better example of a low tier that does abnormally well against snake, people don't even consider sonic low tier now...

 

[Nanaki]

Wtf?

Snake has like 3 match-up's that are not OBVIOUSLY in his favour (MK, D3 and maybe Wario) ... the only character he arguably has the disadvantage against is MK but even then tourney results (high level at least) show that it's even AT WORST.
Snake has no bad match-up unless it's a ghey CP stage like vs Wario on Brinstar.

Wario loses to Marth, Peach and arguably to D3. He also is like even/slight disadvantage vs Falco and Snake. Snake does better vs MK. Snake does better vs G&W. Snake does better vs Marth. Snake does a hundred times better vs ICs.

Snake is OBVIOUSLY better than Wario and arguably as good as MK.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Where anyone gets off saying that Diddy/Wario/IC's are anywhere NEAR Snake (much less ahead of him) is beyond me. If he had MK's representation (in terms of number of entrants) at tourneys, he'd probably be right with him in the overall results (maybe even ahead). Snake is so broken that it's almost ridiculous.

Are you living behind the moon? Mind checking tourney results? MK isn't in his own tier AT ALL. Tourney rankings show that Snake is in the same tier even though MK is much better repped than Snake is.

Seriously guys, you all still underrate Snake....he has no bad stage...he has no truly bad match-up...he has a ****load of broken moves. Snake ***** and he's easily 2nd best, if not 1st.

100% agree. People thing CP'ing Rainbow Cruise is going to be some magical auto-win against Snake, and quickly find out that there's no such thing as an auto-win against Snake (except DMG air camping him on Norfair...).

Snake is so far above and beyond the rest of the cast that if MK didn't exist, people would probably be demanding that Snake be banned. When he lives to ~200% on plenty of stocks and kills midweights at 100% with his borked utilt, you have to thoroughly dominate a match to beat him.

 

[etecoon]

Snake has an ftilt that comes out in 4 frames and deals 21%

and what happens when he misses or gets blocked? snake's attacks deal massive damage, we know that, but they mostly aren't safe, snake struggles against bait and punish styles because he doesn't have anything safe that he can trick you with, he does have tools to punish approaches very hard and he destroys any form of impatience, but many characters can wait him out effectively

Snake loses to D3? No way. Seibrik doesn't use D3 vs Snake anymore because he loses to Ally/Afro all the time. Lain loses to Ally all the time too ... no top D3 player thinks that it's higher than 55/45 (and I think CO18 is the only one who thinks so).

I said snake loses to D3, not that it was worse than 45:55(a little closer than that IMO but not quite even), it is a close loss. and seibrik is an MK main, why would he use DDD and sacrifice having a better matchup?

100% agree. People thing CP'ing Rainbow Cruise is going to be some magical auto-win against Snake, and quickly find out that there's no such thing as an auto-win against Snake (except DMG air camping him on Norfair...).

RC is very overrated as is MK's ability to stage gay snake in general, other characters have much gayer CP's on him

 

[Red Arremer]

tbh I'd agree with that, matchups are weird though, fox boards are like trying to push that they have an advantage on snake right now and I think snake mauls fox like 65:35 <_< link is probably a better example of a low tier that does abnormally well against snake, people don't even consider sonic low tier now...

Fox Boards never claimed the matchup to be in Fox's favour. Fox boards are pushing for a 55:45-50:50 matchup (in Snake's favour). That's it. TO Joe, who played Ally some times, thinks it's maybe 60:40.

And if you have no idea about the characters involved, I'd rather have you not spitting matchup ratios around.

 

[zeldspazz]

No, tournament results are not the heart and soul of any tier list, including this one.

Matchups are the soul and heart of every tier list in other games. Since Smash is stage dependant (tilting matchups into the advantage of one side), matchups can't be the only source.
In order to find out which character does how well, tournament results are taken into account, as well as other things (character potential in general, stage performance, matchups, etc.).

Building on these things, the tier list is created.

I like learning new things

I was just under that impression because thats always the hype that [insert character] cant place in tournies so [insert character] cant be high on the tier list. Now that I think about it though, it does make sense since the reason they cant place in tournaments is because they have bad matchups against top tiers. It is all making sense now

Yeah, and stages do make a big difference in this game, youre right.

 

[etecoon]

Fox Boards never claimed the matchup to be in Fox's favour. Fox boards are pushing for a 55:45-50:50 matchup (in Snake's favour). That's it.

And if you have no idea about the characters involved, I'd rather have you not spitting matchup ratios around.

shouldn't have generalized it as the whole fox board, it wasn't really what I intended to convey, but there are people who are claiming it's in foxes favor or even when it very clearly isn't.

 

[zeldspazz]

and what happens when he misses or gets blocked? snake's attacks deal massive damage, we know that, but they mostly aren't safe, snake struggles against bait and punish styles because he doesn't have anything safe that he can trick you with, he does have tools to punish approaches very hard and he destroys any form of impatience, but many characters can wait him out effectively

What characters can wait him out effectively? He has camping and stage control to cover that. His ftilt is incredibly safe because its disjointed and average cooldown, and his utilt needs no explaination.

 

[Red Arremer]

shouldn't have generalized it as the whole fox board, it wasn't really what I intended to convey, but there are people who are claiming it's in foxes favor or even when it very clearly isn't.

The only one who said it's in Fox's favour was Bowyer. 1 person =/= the whole board nor several people. That's the same when Curaga (1 single person, neither the whole board nor several people) said that Fox's matchup vs. Meta Knight is even and that he thinks that Fox is Meta Knight's worst matchup.

Pretty much the whole Fox boards have - closed, as one entity - said that this is BS, yet someone else (I think Melomaniacal) came into this thread here and posted that "the Fox boards" claimed that MK's worst matchup is Fox, no matter how many times the other Foxes said that what Curaga said was silly.

People have to read all, not only that what they want to read.

I like learning new things

I was just under that impression because thats always the hype that [insert character] cant place in tournies so [insert character] cant be high on the tier list. Now that I think about it though, it does make sense since the reason they cant place in tournaments is because they have bad matchups against top tiers. It is all making sense now

Yeah, and stages do make a big difference in this game, youre right.

Congratulations, you concluded how tiers are built in this game. (no sarcasm)

 

[PhantomX]

Wario should drop. He's either 4th or 5th depending on how highly you rate the ICs. IMO Snake/MK are 1st and the other 2nd. Diddy is probably 3rd although he might be 2nd too...
I think Diddy > Wario because he does better vs MK.

Looking at the Wario match-up discussion I think the Wario boards are a bit delusional/biased. Wario doesn't go even with MK and he doesn't beat Snake either. Diddy and Wario both go even with Snake (es does D3 although Snake might have the advantage over D3) but Diddy does imo better vs MK, especially on neutral stages.
Wario might have a slight advantage against Diddy ... but I think Diddy does slightly better in most match-ups: Falco (55/45 vs Wario, 5/5 vs Diddy), Marth (6/4 vs Wario, 55/45 vs Diddy), D3 (55/45 vs Wario, 5/5 or worse vs Diddy), G&W (Imo Diddy is G&Ws worst match-up...Wario is like even with G&W) and ICs...

Really, I think it should be something like this:

1. Snake/MK
2. Snake/MK
3. Diddy
4. Wario/ICs
5. Wario/ICs

I'm not sure if Wario is S or A-tier though...either best A-tier or worst S-tier...

We've already mentioned that MK is our hardest matchup (but not to the point that it's 60:40, it's just harder than our 55:45s). Marth is a 55:45, D3 is a 50:50, and Falco certainly isn't 55:45 against us after the CG.

Don't call us delusional when you don't know much about Wario at all (I've read your posts on more than one occasion, and this much is obvious to me). GW is an irrelevant matchup b/c it is barely present in the current metagame, Wario slightly beats out Diddy but Diddy is PROBABLY better against D3, and MK.

 

[Kinzer]

What characters can wait him out effectively? He has camping and stage control to cover that. His ftilt is incredibly safe because its disjointed and average cooldown, and his utilt needs no explaination.

I know Sonic makes throwing out any attacks for no reason a guessing game/a risk that is even on both sides at worst (or best, depends how you look at it/which character it is).

Unless your name is Lucario.

 

[etecoon]

What characters can wait him out effectively?

most fast characters don't have a problem with this, snake doesn't have great options if you hang around outside of his ftilt range, he can't safely nade camp, he can't move in because he doesn't have safe pokes or approaches, and retreating just gives you stage control and pushes him towards the edge where he is most vulnerable. I guess he'd be an aggravating character to deal with if you had issues punishing his ftilt, but it's so much more punishable than what MK, marth, olimar, or wario can throw at you. not much is safe on block/whiff at point blank, snake can't retreat while doing anything worthwhile like these characters, and being out of range is the only real safety you can usually get in brawl.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I thought tourney results were the heart and soul of the tier list.

No they aren't, it is a terrible idea to use tournament results as the basis of a tierlist because it is extremely fallible.
It allows so many variables that a tierlist made of tournament results would not be accurate except for the upper echelon of characters.

For example, Marth has among the best matchup ratios overall, ub f his bad matchups were to become extremely popular, based on tourney results, he would fall well below than his matchup ratios were dictate. As such it is terrible to use tourney reults as the basis of a tierlist. That is only one xmaple of the flaw in using tournament results as the basis of a tierlist.

Then a characters metagame. When discussing a tier lsit, I understand that they take one character's moveset/properties and compares it to another to figure out how well a characters counters the other when discussing the tier list, but they arent going to Zelda Boards and say "well they have her down as a 40:60 disadvantage against Wario, Falco, and Diddy, so she must be bad" if you get my meaning. I was told before that character matchups that we as communities member (not SBRers) make are not used for the tier list.

Matchup ratos ARE used for tierlist, if anything that is the basis of a tierlist because it reflects on the characters capabilities in comparison to the rest of the cast.
Let us say Metaknight was used by 95% of the people.

Then characters like Snake would definitely benefit because he does well against Metaknight. A character like Marth who is disadvantaged against him would not and his results would suffer most definitely.

An extreme example but you understand the point.

What are not used are matchup ratios that are obviously inaccurate and ignorant.
Falcon going 55-45 with Snake?
Sonic going 55-45 with falcon?
Luigi going even with Marth or MK?

Unless there is truly accurate justification for those matchup ratios, they are ignored and for the most part, most matchup ratios are inaccurate.

Hence why top and high tier is so very accurate while anything lower gets murky.
Those characters aren't as "good" as the upper echelon as to determine an accurate placement. Partially because of tourney results and lack of representation but mostly because the match up ratios are far from accurate.



@kinzer: Lucario is gay, his hitboxes stay out a good amount of time for the short duration they are out. Ah well anything thats 20 frames gets punshed GG. =P

 

[PhantomX]

Also, you really need to stop bringing in tournament results. There are HUGELY skewed representations of characters in tournament.

 

[Kinzer]

What are not used are matchup ratios that are obviously inaccurate and ignorant.
Sonic going 55-45 with falcon?

You know, since you took the time to specifically point this out, I would like for you to tell me what you (or the general community) would think is right, and a couple of back-ups as to why. I'm not calling you out or trying to challenge you, I am just curious since I have a mixed/no opinion on that one MU that unless this one Vegas player gets moar active I will never see in-bracket.

'Cause numbers don't mean @#$% to me, I want specifics.

 

[smashkng]

Against a not that good Snake and Wario it's Snake's favour. But against two really good Snake and Wario it's EVEN.
Two EVO matches of singles Fiction vs Ally
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2BfbcTGReM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ2shiYNLv0

 

[etecoon]

it's dated but another good example of that is teh spamerer vs ally, really the pivotal moment of that set that sealed ally's victory was an incredibly flukey fart suicide, but a really good example of how snake can struggle with wario anyway

DSF's snake has also had difficulty with fiction

 

[zeldspazz]

most fast characters don't have a problem with this, snake doesn't have great options if you hang around outside of his ftilt range, he can't safely nade camp, he can't move in because he doesn't have safe pokes or approaches, and retreating just gives you stage control and pushes him towards the edge where he is most vulnerable. I guess he'd be an aggravating character to deal with if you had issues punishing his ftilt, but it's so much more punishable than what MK, marth, olimar, or wario can throw at you.

But your giving off the impression that Snakes game totally revolves around his ftilt. Snake has so many tools to use in any given situation. Whats the opposing character going to do to Snake now that they are outside his ftilt range? Hes gonna stay stationary until they approach him, because he wrecks approaches. He can litter nades and bombs on the stage, he has the stage control, not the opponent. His utilt is hugely disjointed, causing anything the opposing character tried to approach with to be shutdown. Your also forgetting small tools like DACUS to get out of situations. The point is that Snake controls the opponent all the time, your never safe against a good Snake. You always have to be cautious.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Also, you really need to stop bringing in tournament results. There are HUGELY skewed representations of characters in tournament.

This, I love you PX.

You know, since you took the time to specifically point this out, I would like for you to tell me what you (or the general community) would think is right, and a couple of back-ups as to why. I'm not calling you out or trying to challenge you, I am just curious since I have a mixed/no opinion on that one MU that unless this one Vegas player gets moar active I will never see in-bracket.

'Cause numbers don't mean @#$% to me, I want specifics.

I like thinking of it similar to marth vs MK.

Everything that Captain Falcon is capable doing, Sonic does it so much better than him.
Maintaining spacing, approaching, defensive behavior, etc etc, Sonic just simply outperforms Falcon.

There are only two areas that Falcon outperforms SOnic.
Those are in terms of range as well as killing ability.
Falco's range is definitely better than Sonic's, unfortunately, this is offset by his terrible priority, blow for blow Sonic does indeed outprioritize Falcon because his hurtbox is not as large as Falcon's.
Even Falco' longest ranged moves have a large hurtbox and so even those give way to the likes of Bair, Uair and Fair from Sonic.

Killing ability is simply n tms of the speed of the kill move. Similar to Sonic, Falcon as no reliable way of setting up a kill move, and the fact that Sonic is so very capable at outspacing Falcon makes hurts that advantage that Falcon has.

I play Falcon on a daily basis, and I find Sonic to be one of my most hated matchups, simply because anything I can do, he can do the same and I have to play so much harder than the Sonic user, especially considering that alot of Sonic's moves are safe on block making punishing harder on Falcon's end, even more so when Sonic has is ability to cancel a down or side b with a jump or cancel them into a shield.

Yeah I hate the match makes me go grrr.

Against a not that good Snake and Wario it's Snake's favour. But against two really good Snake and Wario it's EVEN.

really would like people to stop saying this, low level play matchups dont account for a **** thing in matchup ratios cause they obviously are not using all the tools that the character has to offer like high level play does.

Ignore low level pay, embrace high level

And I dare you to click this link, and not smile at least.
http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3211187


@PX: ALL matchups are given equal importance, simply because you do not see many G&W does not change the importance of the matchup. Unless of course, you are using weighed mathcups which would still make G&W important due to his tier placement. OMG I LOVE THIS NEW LAPTOP ITS SO NICE TO ME! I JUST NEED TO OC MY PROCESSOR!

 

[etecoon]

He can litter nades and bombs on the stage

if you're just outside his ftilt range he doesn't have time to do any of this, nade pull = punishment, he can't act immediately, pulling a nade at that range is misspacing. DACUS is also not really safe unless you go backwards, if you retreat, that lets the opponent take more of the stage and puts snake's back to the edge, limiting his options and putting him a few moves away from being edge guarded(edge/air = snake's worst positions).

The point is that Snake controls the opponent all the time, your never safe against a good Snake. You always have to be cautious.

obviously you have to be cautious, but he has no control when he's in the air or off the edge, and for that matter he has less stage control against someone like MK or Wario than a more grounded character. keep in mind I'm not saying snake should move down, I'm just saying that he's clearly not as good as MK and the "snake just doesn't get repped as well as MK" argument is BS, he's an inferior character to MK on paper as well as in reality.