BBoyindo
Smash Ace
Thanks for adding the changes of the list, its really usefull!
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The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v2.0
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
- Status
Daimonster
Smash Journeyman
The new add to your post count thread huh...
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
No he shouldn't. Although Luigi is a good character, he definitely doesn't do well enough to justify a position in C Tier.
Indeed, especially for you, as this was only a +1-Post.
Umby
Smash Master
For some reason I imagined your face to be the same as in your avatar when you made that post.
Bowser King
Have It Your Way
If luigi were to enter C I would be surprised. I don't think be belongs there even though he's a good char.
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Bowser King
Firestormzero0
Smash Ace
lol fox = 666 pwnage... 
AgentJGV
Smash Journeyman
I have a strong feeling that as the game progresses, we'll see an increase in the heavier, more powerful characters, such as Ganondorf or Ike.
These posts are always hilarious. "This list is biased because I don't agree with it!" The irony is great.
Lenus Altair
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2008
- Messages
- 518
As a Pit main, It saddens me a little to see him drop, but I understand why. I believe in the long term Pit will be a bit higher then he is currently though because most of Pit's problem stems from Metaknight being one, if not the single most played characters in tourneys. Since he is one of Pits two hard counters, it makes it particularly hard to place well in tournaments. Once people realise that and see how he compares to others, he should see a bit of a rise.
In anycase whatever happens to Pit, Ill always be happy to be playing one of the most fun(to me) and balanced characters in SSBB despite what newbs might claim.
Can't deal with the spam? I don't give a d***. Think thats all I got? Then you're about to lose a stock.
In anycase whatever happens to Pit, Ill always be happy to be playing one of the most fun(to me) and balanced characters in SSBB despite what newbs might claim.
Can't deal with the spam? I don't give a d***. Think thats all I got? Then you're about to lose a stock.
So what if the person you're playing against nullifies the use of spam and knows pretty much what to expect from you?Can't deal with the spam? I don't give a d***. Think thats all I got? Then you're about to lose a stock.
Lenus Altair
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2008
- Messages
- 518
Then get better, or do the unexpected.So what if the person you're playing against nullifies the use of spam and knows pretty much what to expect from you?
That's the thing though. I've been exposed to various Pit playstyles and (well, maybe it's because I play Sonic) the stereotypical spammy newb Pit just doesn't fare too well, so most Pits I play have to rely on their close range game. And when it gets down to that point, it's pretty much down to a "who can read the other person's attack and counter their attack more often" thing, which is pretty much just a "who's playing better this round", rather than a Pit-outclasses-you deal.
9_9;
9_9;
Lenus Altair
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2008
- Messages
- 518
Pit has alot of options that I think a good number of players take forgranted besides arrows spam.
I admit on stage spamming arrows does little good. An experienced player will rarely get hit by one even with some mix up in timing, or unconventional arrow looping tricks (which are situational). Off stage however there are one of the safest/effective gimping tools period.
When it comes to close combat against some heavier characters pit does have a nice chaingrab to start things off, and while his hitboxes aren't as insane as say... Ike's or G&W, but he has some great spacing tools to make up for it, and great/multiple options out of SH again every character. Then there is his ledgecamping game which is resilient to alot of things. Pit also has more options then most characters to gimp, most of them quite good as well. If he had an off stage spike, he would have practically every tool possible. I also view him as one of the most synergistic character with all of his tools to launch his foes skyward just were he likes them, and his
I could continue this laundry list of pros, but it doesn't mean much in terms of a tier list. I just think its silly to act like once you get past his arrows everything evens out, which seemed to be what you were suggesting...
That's the first time I've heard of that. Are you saying that Pit specifically doesn't stale his multi-hit moves, or that this mechanic applies to all multi-hit moves? Because it definitely doesn't work that way for every character - in fact, you'll even end up doing fractional (shows up as "0" damage) if you have a stale multi-hit move.
Also, most multi-hit moves suffer the flaw of escapability through SDI.
Like I said, I pretty much only did this matchup seriously as Sonic, so yes, it sort of 'evens out' at close range, and getting gimped by anything short of a 'sure-kill move' off-stage is really rare for that character. If you'd like to enlighten me, show me a video of Pit outclassing someone in close range.
Lenus Altair
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2008
- Messages
- 518
Your right about the damage thing, that was a stupid mistake on my part.
Whether it evens out depends on the character was my point. Sorry it wasn't clear.
From a Sonic main I can understand why you took your original point of view since the match up Vs. Pit is pretty even, so it makes sense you would feel that way.
As for finding a video, I'm sure anyone can find a video of one character beating the snot out of another if they looked hard enough, but what does that say? If you really feel that it matters, tell me exactly what you mean by "outclassing" and Ill look.
Lenus Altair
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2008
- Messages
- 518
The last stock here was nice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3DgbzoGuH0
This one I think qualifies overall:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLT1PHZ_4Ko
Gimps and tricks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4O8oiPobwY&feature=PlayList&p=5D246C8E61221B5C&index=13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP_oROwHAcY&feature=PlayList&p=5D246C8E61221B5C&index=10
^Only scrubs have the above opinon. MK is the best but not god.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Hence I despise people who name the tiers to make SS Tier = God Tier.
Thanks for the vids.
I hate to put a damper on the NL fight (first vid), but the majority of the last stock was just punishing spotdodges or aggressive/bad spacing (example, MK predictably ledgehops an approaching F-air on a shielding opponent). Nice powershield+ OoS punishments though.
The second video was cool, though aside from the knockback move > arrow to stop momentum for more punishment, or Pit's aerials outprioritizing from below (especially U-air harassment from below a platform), alot of that stuff was either OoS punishment (player based, but of course, a bit of a nod to Pit for having a fast F-smash), or not necessarily specific to Pit (such as the jab > grab volley - though I'm not sure why the Snake was spamming crouch through that lol).
and the combo videos were kind of fun to watch, though I'm not sure how many airdodge > delayed F-air or stage spikes I saw lol.
But overall, yeah, that still kind of goes under "even" in my tastes x]
If you rely on OoS punishments for moves you predict coming from your opponent, and/or base alot off of the opponent's defensive reaction (esp. airdodges and spotdodges), it can make your close range game look alot better (or in reality, be more "even"/"player skill"-based) than it might seem at first glance. As a Sonic main, where people airdodging, spotdodging, and attacking predictably are like bread and butter for my damaging and kill game, I'd be able to tell lol.
I don't understand the people who complain that the list is biased. Would you like an army of robots to vote on the list? Human beings are biased and that's why we did a vote, because going by one persons opinion is extreme bias. By doing a vote of informed and experienced players, you tend to get the most objective list possible. Taking the vote of smashers who do have no travelled or do not fully understand the tournament scene would result in more bias due to limited interaction with differing players and opinions. For example, my opinion that Metaknight is the best character in the game is a pretty biased opinion. If I never played a metaknight player I would not think this. You cannot be robotically objective about this, it's a measure of interpretations/opinions and results.
Care to offer an idea of how to come up with an unbiased list that is even better than taking a vote and logically debating the results?
Care to offer an idea of how to come up with an unbiased list that is even better than taking a vote and logically debating the results?
TOURNEY RESULTS ONRY SONIC FOR BETTER THAN HORRENDOUS TIER
something like that might work edreese
oh wait.
something like that might work edreese
oh wait.
If we go by tourney results only, does that mean we'd have to update the tier list everytime there is a tournament? Otherwise it's outdated and no longer accurate. hahaha
of course that's exactly what it would mean
no, but you could take tourney results into account more.
IT almost seams as if your being selective when it comes to the degree to which tourney results affect placements. If your going on match ups and "potential", yoshi should be higher. If you lean towards toruney results, sonic should move up. Fanboyism alone can't be putting him that high. Its almost like to to afraid to move past the preconceptions.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
However, the SBR did use both, and Sonic's placements in important tourneys and/or those with widly recognized players were taken into account.
I could make 20 tournaments with 200 scrubs and 1 good player using a bad character - let's say Captain Falcon. That good player would win all 20 times against the scrubs, giving Falcon 20 placements, thus making the list inaccurate as it doesn't contain the true metagame evolvement.
I could make 20 tournaments with 200 scrubs and 1 good player using a bad character - let's say Captain Falcon. That good player would win all 20 times against the scrubs, giving Falcon 20 placements, thus making the list inaccurate as it doesn't contain the true metagame evolvement.
G U R U
Smash Lord
Captain Falcon for Gansta tier.
Are you insinuating that that is how sonic wins all his tournaments?
According to the laws of probability (Sort Of), that isn't going to happen.
Look back on what I said. I was referring back to the DEGREE it influenced decsions, I know they use both. It just seams that backing up some chars placements with tourney results and others with potential seems a little contradictory.
Waza
Smash Apprentice
Anyone care to explain what made Bowser higher on the list than Fox and Shiek/Zelda (this is another thing, most mainers play shiek/zelda, not one or the other so they should be grouped together)? Gimpy? I know you have experience with both Bowser and Shiek, care to expound on this?
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
No, I'm saying that not every tournament placing can be taken into account. I was just giving an extreme as an example.Are you insinuating that that is how sonic wins all his tournaments?
According to the laws of probability (Sort Of), that isn't going to happen.
That's what democracy is. =)
We had this discussion already.
Yoshi deserves more respect.
For some reason, as Shiri put it, SBR doesn't care about him, and never will, probably.
Us Yoshi mains have been placing well in Tournaments (well, more them then me) and we have discovered tactics and techniques to improve our game, and we still don't get acknowledged nor recognized for our/their imput and effort?
Plus, he's got pretty decent matchups.
For some reason, as Shiri put it, SBR doesn't care about him, and never will, probably.
Us Yoshi mains have been placing well in Tournaments (well, more them then me) and we have discovered tactics and techniques to improve our game, and we still don't get acknowledged nor recognized for our/their imput and effort?
Plus, he's got pretty decent matchups.
Waza
Smash Apprentice
ah my bad, happen to remember what page it was ended on?
However the whole Bowser > Fox or Shiek/Zelda has yet to be explained...
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
i think bowser is really overrated so it's not me bumping him up
everyone pretends i want bowser to be higher on these lists than he should be for both melee and brawl lol
everyone pretends i want bowser to be higher on these lists than he should be for both melee and brawl lol
Deathcarter
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2007
- Messages
- 1,358
I am not sure why Bowser is above Fox. It is not just tournament results since both of them have been lackluster. I guess it is just because more SBR members underestimated Fox than Bowser, which looking at Fox's weekly character discussion on the Fox boards, was VERY unexpected.
WeeGeeSmash
Smash Apprentice
Bowser should have went up! He's way more faster in Brawl than in Melee.
fox has wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy to many HUGE weaknesses
somebody who doesn't even play pikachu can play pikachu against a good fox player and win is what it basically boils down to lol
somebody who doesn't even play pikachu can play pikachu against a good fox player and win is what it basically boils down to lol
Couldn't you say the same about DDD and bowser?
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