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The Official Marth Video Critique Thread

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IG88

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Messages
28
Location
Austin, Tx
Everybody, at least the should, is open to critiques from anybody- no matter how unknown or level of play. You never know when something useful may be said. Keep doing what you're doing, you won't get flamed. At worst politely corrected, like below =)
well then, that works lol. looking back now that i'm more awake the majority of the times i was looking at turn around grab were when he was doin crossover aerials, but there was once or twice where wario was grounded and that or retreating bair might've worked well
 

Player-3

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 11, 2008
Messages
8,994
Location
Georgia
Suddenly sets! Several of them!

billybeegood (Diddy) vs Raziek (Marth)

Croi (Wario) vs Raziek (Marth) WFs

Croi (Wario) vs Raziek (Marth) GF1

Croi (Wario) vs Raziek (Marth) GF2

15 games of Marth vs. Wario, 12 more on the way. If you want to see how this match-up is played, you won't find anyone who plays it more.

Posting for others to see, and because C.J. has already promised critique.

Nike20 sodaaddicted namesearchbait, I've been working on my grab game, I want critique on those.
against diddy with no bananas (especially one like that one that NEVER used his broken side-b) you should never be retreating, just spacing and constantly pressuring him because diddys only options to counter your pressure are fairs oos and dash attack/grab (and side-b which pretty much ****s on marth really hard in every situation, it's really hard to deal with but that diddy NEVER used it ), so just pressure with landing aerials and dtilt at a range until you can poke him into the air, then just juggle him

you rolled away from him a few times when he wasnt attacking you, giving him time to pull a banana

im bad at marth/wario

that diddy was obviously worse than you so i dont really see the need to critique it too hard lol, the only times he killed you at all in game 1 were SDs and buffered airdodges
 

Nike.

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 18, 2006
Messages
5,823
Location
SA-Town, Texas
I saw the vids on the channel yesterday, but was scared to watch because I know about Nova Scotia's stage list lol. I'll watch em for you, though :)
 

IG88

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Messages
28
Location
Austin, Tx
hey guys, i got some games saved the other night but realized i only saved 1 against skypirate (olimar) and those were the matches i wanted to upload lol. i'll be playing again thursday, so once i get a few more matches uploaded could you guys help me out with that MU? it's gonna be the death of me haha.
 

C.J.

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 30, 2008
Messages
4,102
Location
Florida
Raz, I'm still working on redoing your 74 matches, I have a ton of spare time tomorrow *hopefully* with a new battery so I can get to finishing them.

But first:

[COLLAPSE="Peace"]Dash grabs are bad.

Your offstage game needs work. You jumped a lot earlier than you needed to as soon as you were offstage. If you had waited for his upB (since he was forced to do it pretty much exactly when he did) to do a rising dair, you would have had a stock right there. Instead since you recovered poorly he was on the stage and you on the ledge with RCO lag.

You had your back to snake with him shielding about 15 seconds in. Turn around and grab. NEVER EVER EVER roll in that situation. Every player who has ever played this game ever is waiting for it. There's a melee match somewhere on youtube where Mang0 commentates it as he's playing and he talks about that roll you just did a LOT.

You really need to count nades better

Quit trying to cross him up with rising aerials. They lag and he can react.

Know your punishes. Don't default to shieldgrab

Soooo much fsmash.

You didn't use dtilt... like at all.

Soooo much DB. It's such a committed action. Grabs are good as long as they aren't dash grabs.

Watch your dashes. If you have a lead there's no reason to NOT walk. Make him commit.

Your second death... just... what? You DB'd to get farther away from the ledge? Also, you HAVE to DI everything 100% of the time. Even when you're at 3%, you have to DI like you're at 140%.

You're really predictable when you're on the ledge.

Your spacing is in need of improvement. You kept falling into his body with nair and fair.

You bair in really awkward situations.

Work on your ledge traps a lot.

You really have to DI better and recover a lot safer.

Overall, you just need a lot of work on your move selection. Find a Snake- it doesn't matter if it's Fatal or the kid down the block- and just play the MU non-stop. Watch Mike vs Havok. Just learn your options and the best times to use them.[/COLLAPSE]

[COLLAPSE="Almo"]There's no reason you should have lost out on that stock at the beginning. You missed the first dair, that's fine. But then you footstooled the cypher instead of rising dair? You also missed all of the footstool opportunities out of his C4.

Don't fair into people's bodies. Esp when there's something that can cause body parts to go missing there.

You don't want to sit on platforms longer than necessary. Just drop through/jump away/run off

When he's falling with nair, it's free damage. Don't try to challenge it if you're not comfortable doing that, but just jump in with counter.

You have an air dodging habit, fix it.

Quit landing with bair.

Watch your dashes

You have to be a lot more careful with your second jump while onstage.

Pay a lot more attention to his explosives and use them to your advantage.

You're really good at waiting. Definitely something a lot of players have trouble with while juggling/stringing.

I'm not going back to rewatch it, but I think I only saw one dtilt in both games. And you used it when he was 1/3 of the stage away.

Cool it with the SB

Be wary of your RCO lag

You gott FF your uairs if you want to stay safe while trying to juggle.

Needs less rising SH fair and more rising FH fair.[/COLLAPSE]
 

M@v

Subarashii!
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
10,678
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
I finally have Marf videos. This Marth started in October. These are vids from our most recent practice session at Penn State. Have at it people.

Umbra(Peach) vs M@v(Marth)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKrukC5RKuU&list=PLD2965BFEB91C1BFC&index=10&feature=plpp_video

Umbra(Pikachu/Marth) vs M@v(Marth)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quZqoK5v-rY&list=PLD2965BFEB91C1BFC&index=11&feature=plpp_video

Melon(Jigglypuff) vs M@v(Marth/Falco) game 1 is the marth game
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJGdNimAMRI&list=PLD2965BFEB91C1BFC&index=8&feature=plpp_video

Umbra(DDD) vs M@v(Marth)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZEhyrhtWmA&list=PLD2965BFEB91C1BFC&index=12&feature=plpp_video

Umbra(Pikachu) vs M@v(Marth)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaKeVcVhl_U&list=PLD2965BFEB91C1BFC&index=4&feature=plpp_video
 

M@v

Subarashii!
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
10,678
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
game 1
1:36=Why the dair to momemtum cancel? It lasts so long.

1:58=no reason to go for the upb when he's that low percent. Shield grab would of been fine.

2:07=very niiiice

2:24=greedy upb

2:58=Surprised will didn't kill you for that. Not worth going for that spike there at all, especially since there was a very good chance you weren't hitting him anyway.

Game2

5:32=So he's holding his shield in front of you, and you choose upb? Easy grab there. Or back up a tiny bit and wait for him to do something, and react.
Only upB during the following:

-You powershield one of his moves
-He's throwing a move out, and you use upbs invulnerability to not get hit and hit him
-Punish a spot doodge(Dancing blades is infinitely better for this though)
-Randomly as a surprise maneuver. Rarely do this. risk reward ratio is not in your favor. at all.

6:28- survived, but fair would of been the better momentum cancel.

7:30-Bad counter, followed by decent DI but horrible momentum cancelling. For Momentum cancelling, you want the shortest lasting aerial from start to end. Dair is marth's longest. By far.


game 3:

8:10
Take the time to do the grab combo right and get the tipper. Every bit of damage counts, especially against a fat character like d3.

8:22
Great SDI, followed by not so nice missing the ledge sweetspot. Will was there to greet you too.

8:38
Once, again, dair to momentum cancel. Its driving me nuts. Fast fall with the analog stick, then fair with the cstick. Then jump.

9:30. should not have gone for the spike. He was not in the proper position, and you paid the price.

Near the end I could tell you were getting nervous. You were being way to aggro and throwing out attacks, and will was just sitting there waiting to punish them.

But yeah, the two main things are work on your DI/momentum cancelling, and don't go for the spikes so much off stage.
 

Reizilla

The Old Lapras and the Sea
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
13,676
@M@v:

I only watched your last video against Pikachu, but you tend to over-commit a lot, leaving you in bad positions. If you haven't read CJ's latest thread (I haven't finished reading it myself), there were a lot of things that he mentions that I directly noticed in your game as far as picking options and punishing.

As far as playing against Pikachu in general, the reason why this match-up is in our favor is even(?) is because his range is poor compared to ours. Staying at tipper range just makes things so much harder for him, but you sacrificed that a lot by dashing into things. I guess just be more conscious of your positioning and try not to give up your advantage so easily.

When edge guarding, know that nair eats up quick attack recoveries. I've also found that jab works really well against a lot of Pika's recovery options.

I don't think I need to tell you not to air dodge into the opponent when landing. Though it's especially true against Pika because of his lingering hitboxes.

And don't momentum cancel utilt unless you absolutely have to. Especially don't air dodge right out of it. Usmash usually has enough lag on Pika to where you can throw out a fair and still be able to air dodge afterward, so long as you DI'd it somewhat.

Pika's shield is bad, but don't use shield breaker when it's still full. DS isn't the best punish when it's not sweetspotted (that might be a good time for rising fair).


If I think of anything else or get to watch other matches, I'll add more.
 

C.J.

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 30, 2008
Messages
4,102
Location
Florida
Zorai, who are you? o_O

I'm impressed. I picked up a couple new things. I'll have to watch those again later.

Raz, part one of two:
[COLLAPSE="vs Wario"]First things first:
I LOVE the CS counterpicks!

Quit being afraid of the ledge

Watch your rising fairs

You don’t want to double dtilt on shield. Do it once, then react to whatever he does

Why is every Marth player’s GT so telegraphed. Be able to do it without having to turn around/shield first. Make it fluid. The turn around needs to be immediate and then just roll like you usually would without the shield. Your item game is starting to look good- don’t get me wrong- I just know every time you’re going to GT, which direction, when you’re going to throw an item, etc. You’re not fluid enough in it yet and are just telegraphed. Get smoother with it and you’ll be fine.

You’re bad vs cross-up aerials. FH dair OoS is amazing vs them. You keep whiffing shield grabs.

You’ve gotten a lot better at it, but you’re still nairing (and slow falling it none-the-less) when you should be FF fairing.

Don’t hesitate on your punishes. I hate watching you spotdodge after shielding an fsmash only to then DB his shield.

You’re jabbing fairly well.

Cool it on the fsmash some

Do him a favor. Tell him that every time he respawns he is immediately super aggressive which causes him to have a 24% handicap EVERY time.

With no jump, you don’t want to just fall into him. Retreat a little bit so your attacks are safer/can’t be grab armored through.

You’re jabbing fairly well. I’m proud.

You’re too afraid of taking minimal damage to help you recover. On Brinstar at one point you were offstage and jumped into Wario in order to avoid the acid. Instead of taking a bit of damage and being able to recover safer, you waste your jump and take just as much- if not more- damage from Wario while being in a worse position.

You dash away from danger a lot, which is good. It’s better than rolling. Now the next thing to add is walking away from danger. Often times dashing puts too much distance between the two of you. You want to microspace and be just out of his range while he’s in yours.

Utilt will never kill on JJ. Ever. GR-> tipper back hit of nair will kill off the sides sooner.

You AD into him a bit.

I don’t know offhand, but I’m pretty sure there were quite a few times where utilt would have killed out of a GR and you usmashed. Learn the kill %s

Be careful with your platform pressure. You don’t want to FH ever. It lets him turn the situation from you platform pressuring him into him pressuring you.

You were doing REALLY well with using FHs and DJs intelligently about 98% of the time. You have to make it 100% of the time.

I know I said it before, but I keep seeing it and it’s important. Quit being afraid of the ledge and using your DJ poorly as a result. An AMAZING example of this is at 2:21 in GF1. You jumped for no reason, ended up going back to the ledge anyway and just gave yourself RCO lag. If you had just FF’d a little bit then jumped up the ledge from there, you would have gotten to the ledge in a much safer way while not giving yourself RCO lag.

Don’t get greedy

You commit to DB too much

You’ve gotten a LOT better at uairing and knowing when to uair, but you have to FF them more, especially rising uairs. As soon as you hit that acme, you have to hit down and get to the ground.

Why did you choke GF1 on Norfair!!!

You really need to stop aerialing into his shield. You’re getting shieldgrabbed a LOT.

More nair/bair out of GRs when you can’t usmash. It’ll let you force him off the stage into a really advantageous position for you.

Okay, GF1, about 22:55 in, you have an entire stock on him. The video says another 2 minutes left and I know this went to GF2. Right now (I have it paused) I know you didn’t try to camp him out. When you have that big of a lead vs a character with good comeback potential (Wario- waft MK- gimp/SL DDD- CG into a stock, etc) it’s not worth risking your huge lead to win faster. Just wait it out and force him to take risks by running/floating into your sword/grabs.

Dash grabs are bad. Skid canceled shield grabs are far better.

Quit flowcharting nair->fsmash. He’s SDing the fsmash almost every time and punishing you for it. Substitute the fsmash w/ run through pivot grab or dtilt.

You should be platform canceling a lot more on LC.

Don’t forget, Pirate ship is moving so when you jump through the floor to get onto the boat from the water you can PC it.

You have a spotdodging problem.

Preemptive DS while recovering if they’re coming after you is a good option if done smartly.

Really, second jumps to avoid the ledge and then falling into people with nair/fair and getting grabbed for it so consistently is the biggest thing.
[/COLLAPSE]

I'll do my thesis paper on your Diddy match Tuesday night after my last exam.
 

Zorai

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
329
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NYC
NNID
x_Zorai
Zorai, who are you? o_O

I'm impressed. I picked up a couple new things. I'll have to watch those again later.

Raz, part one of two:
[COLLAPSE="vs Wario"]First things first:
I LOVE the CS counterpicks!

Quit being afraid of the ledge

Watch your rising fairs

You don’t want to double dtilt on shield. Do it once, then react to whatever he does

Why is every Marth player’s GT so telegraphed. Be able to do it without having to turn around/shield first. Make it fluid. The turn around needs to be immediate and then just roll like you usually would without the shield. Your item game is starting to look good- don’t get me wrong- I just know every time you’re going to GT, which direction, when you’re going to throw an item, etc. You’re not fluid enough in it yet and are just telegraphed. Get smoother with it and you’ll be fine.

You’re bad vs cross-up aerials. FH dair OoS is amazing vs them. You keep whiffing shield grabs.

You’ve gotten a lot better at it, but you’re still nairing (and slow falling it none-the-less) when you should be FF fairing.

Don’t hesitate on your punishes. I hate watching you spotdodge after shielding an fsmash only to then DB his shield.

You’re jabbing fairly well.

Cool it on the fsmash some

Do him a favor. Tell him that every time he respawns he is immediately super aggressive which causes him to have a 24% handicap EVERY time.

With no jump, you don’t want to just fall into him. Retreat a little bit so your attacks are safer/can’t be grab armored through.

You’re jabbing fairly well. I’m proud.

You’re too afraid of taking minimal damage to help you recover. On Brinstar at one point you were offstage and jumped into Wario in order to avoid the acid. Instead of taking a bit of damage and being able to recover safer, you waste your jump and take just as much- if not more- damage from Wario while being in a worse position.

You dash away from danger a lot, which is good. It’s better than rolling. Now the next thing to add is walking away from danger. Often times dashing puts too much distance between the two of you. You want to microspace and be just out of his range while he’s in yours.

Utilt will never kill on JJ. Ever. GR-> tipper back hit of nair will kill off the sides sooner.

You AD into him a bit.

I don’t know offhand, but I’m pretty sure there were quite a few times where utilt would have killed out of a GR and you usmashed. Learn the kill %s

Be careful with your platform pressure. You don’t want to FH ever. It lets him turn the situation from you platform pressuring him into him pressuring you.

You were doing REALLY well with using FHs and DJs intelligently about 98% of the time. You have to make it 100% of the time.

I know I said it before, but I keep seeing it and it’s important. Quit being afraid of the ledge and using your DJ poorly as a result. An AMAZING example of this is at 2:21 in GF1. You jumped for no reason, ended up going back to the ledge anyway and just gave yourself RCO lag. If you had just FF’d a little bit then jumped up the ledge from there, you would have gotten to the ledge in a much safer way while not giving yourself RCO lag.

Don’t get greedy

You commit to DB too much

You’ve gotten a LOT better at uairing and knowing when to uair, but you have to FF them more, especially rising uairs. As soon as you hit that acme, you have to hit down and get to the ground.

Why did you choke GF1 on Norfair!!!

You really need to stop aerialing into his shield. You’re getting shieldgrabbed a LOT.

More nair/bair out of GRs when you can’t usmash. It’ll let you force him off the stage into a really advantageous position for you.

Okay, GF1, about 22:55 in, you have an entire stock on him. The video says another 2 minutes left and I know this went to GF2. Right now (I have it paused) I know you didn’t try to camp him out. When you have that big of a lead vs a character with good comeback potential (Wario- waft MK- gimp/SL DDD- CG into a stock, etc) it’s not worth risking your huge lead to win faster. Just wait it out and force him to take risks by running/floating into your sword/grabs.

Dash grabs are bad. Skid canceled shield grabs are far better.

Quit flowcharting nair->fsmash. He’s SDing the fsmash almost every time and punishing you for it. Substitute the fsmash w/ run through pivot grab or dtilt.

You should be platform canceling a lot more on LC.

Don’t forget, Pirate ship is moving so when you jump through the floor to get onto the boat from the water you can PC it.

You have a spotdodging problem.

Preemptive DS while recovering if they’re coming after you is a good option if done smartly.

Really, second jumps to avoid the ledge and then falling into people with nair/fair and getting grabbed for it so consistently is the biggest thing.
[/COLLAPSE]

I'll do my thesis paper on your Diddy match Tuesday night after my last exam.
Haha, yeah I'm only known around NY/NJ.

Doesn't mean I can't do well lol.

:phone:
 

MasterOfGalaxies

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 9, 2010
Messages
93
Location
Somewhere boring.
I think you're doing pretty good if you brought it back after that SD at the very beginning, ScareMi ;)

Kirby has no (intrinsic) projectile. He pretty much has to approach you unless he's ahead. And he has pretty much nothing against retreated fairs and nairs. You should be able to just wall Kirby out with your giant, shining sword, and you'll pretty much win. Kirby has bair, and that's about it. Your retreated aerials beat his bair.
 

IG88

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Messages
28
Location
Austin, Tx

Nike.

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 18, 2006
Messages
5,823
Location
SA-Town, Texas
I think you should know that Delfino, Castle Siege, and PK1 are all of Olimars best counterpicks against Marth.

Unless Random was just that cruel to you lol
 

IG88

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Messages
28
Location
Austin, Tx
random was just that cruel to me =/

i think skypirate's wii just hates me though. we were playing with just neutrals on for a bit earlier that night, then he's like we need more counterpicks, so he turned on all of them, and immediately after we go to rainbow cruise, brinstar, and then ps2 back to back (like my 3 least favorite stages) >.<
 

C.J.

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 30, 2008
Messages
4,102
Location
Florida
Okay Raz. I'm done with the Diddy one.

[COLLAPSE="vs Billy"]0:05 Why would you roll away? All that does is give him space to get bananas. Quick risk/reward examination for you attacking him. Obviously the reward is him being closer to the ledge/you get a string of hits that puts him offstage/on the ledge. Alright, the risk is you get thrown and get put farther away from Diddy so he can pull out bananas and set up his camp game. So, by rolling away you took away your possibility of reward and forced yourself to commit to the action that was the risk of attacking. Stage control and pressure are the two most important things in the MU (assuming you know how to fight Diddy offstage ofc) and you need to always keep them in mind.

0:19 That wasn’t a safe double jump. If he hadn’t tripped you could have been fair’d father off of the stage. Since he did trip you gave up an opportunity to apply pressure. You then drifted right into him (with no jump) allowing him to get free damage on you- and had it been a better player- the large potential of a string for your stock/ledge trapping you.

0:40 Maybe you did, but always listen to their controller. If they’re mashing, it’s a free fair/dash attack.

1:00 You have to be careful with your jumps. Diddy loves when people jump. It’s a fair if he doesn’t have a banana. If he does he traps your landing into banana combos into cruelty.

1:04 Be really careful about landing options. You pretty much never want to use a landing aerial when Diddy has a banana in his hand. Unless you hit him with it, you get tripped and wrecked. Keep yourself open for instant throws ALL the time.

1:07 Keep your ears focused. It’s easier to hear when you catch an item than to see it.

You have an ADing habit.

1:14 Z-drop peanuts ASAP unless you’re planning on using them as a way to GT. Additionally, the DJ that you got that peanut with was poorly executed (landing wise) as a result (somewhat). Drop the peanut, FF to the ground, and get back to a neutral situation. You had a banana behind you that you could have easily taken control over. Instead you just fell onto it trapping your own landing.

1:16 You finally throw the peanut away- but you threw it. Your throws are laggy. Z-drops are not. You proceed to land on the platform (and trip) instead of FFing through it (granted, you may not have had a choice since you were probably still in throw lag).

1:19 Again with the bad double jumping.

1:25 Something similar to the beginning. You continued drifting away from Diddy after missing giving him space to get items out again. As soon as you were a bit past him you should have fallen in place. If he came after you, landing DB would have worked quite well.

1:28 Literally the exact same thing that you did at 0:05. The difference is this time the risk is you would have been farther away from Diddy. You still wouldn’t have been offstage (assuming proper DI) however so you still should have tried to take control back there.

1:33 He’s falling. Rising is the opposite of the direction you should be going.

1:40 That jump…

1:52 See 1:04

1:57 You trapped your own landing- not dissimilar to a combination of 1:04 and the ending part of 1:14

2:08 There is no excuse for that. There is no reason to ever need to shield before a GT and COMPLETELY gives it away. Marth’s GT isn’t particularly good. It doesn’t microspace or allow for better zoning. It does allow for a quick surprise approach. Turning around, stopping, shielding, and THEN GTing completely give yourself away and you lose all benefit from doing it as even I could have reacted to all of that (and you know how *** my reaction is). GTing like that is fine- make it be fluid. Turn arounds are 2 frames (iirc). GT starts on something like frame 4 or 5. So, from the time you decide to GT to the time you begin movement as a result of it, should be something around 6 or 7 frames. You have to be fluid. He had plenty of time to shield as a result.

2:14 Same thing as 2:08. He saw it, and just shielded. You have to be amazingly fluid with your tech skill in all aspects. CGs, spacing, ledge traps, item play, etc. Just because Diddy is less common doesn’t mean you should be less fluid with a certain aspect of a technical skill. It’s one thing to not be used to a MU since that is dependent on having another person around. Tech skill is just practice.

2:36 Jab locks are always guaranteed on Diddy from falling off of a platform backwards. Jab 1 only, charged usmash/tipper fsmash.

2:51 That jump again. Jumping there is fine in a situation like at 3:05ish. However when Diddy (or anyone) is on the ground and has access to all their options, it’s a terrible idea.

3:17 Technical error I assume? If not, instant throw and z-grab are far superior options there. I’m going to assume technical error though.

3:21 Okay, there were three reasons why that fair was a terrible idea (well, two and the third being a huge clue it was coming). 1) You want to stay grounded more if possible vs Diddy at kill %s. If you jump you’re open to trading fair or getting landing trapped. Stay safe. 2) You were approaching with the fair while moving forward still. That screams “fair me and take the beneficial trade for you.” 3) Diddy players in that specific situation LOVE to pick up a banana on the ground by rising SH fair. It’s fairly safe, gets them a banana, and his fair beats/trades with most aerials in the game. Walk forward ftilt/jump forward into a retreating nair should have been your choice.

3:27 You’re most of a stock ahead now. Don’t get greedy/impatient.

3:30-3:32 Double jump/ADing habit

3:41 Quit rising while your opponent is falling. All that does is reverse the situation and negate any opportunity you have for punishing the AD. Plus, he had already used him jump so it wasn’t even possible for him to rise.

3:53 You can shieldgrab between the second to last and last hit.

3:54/3:55 You gotta apply pressure

3:58 Random spotdodges are bad vs Diddy (and to a lesser extent luigi) for this exact reason.

3:59 Watch the ADs. He saw it coming but just wasn’t close enough to punish.

4:00/4:01 Quit giving him space. Pressure, pressure, pressure.

4:21 See 2:08 again

4:24 And again

4:27 Do it like this every time

4:30 Walk to microspace. You give up too much stage control by dashing.

4:45 Jump

4:49 Just rising instant throw from the ledge

4:51 Throw is laggy, Z-drop isn’t.

Honestly... I got bored, so yeah...

Item control, watch your FH/DJs, PRESSURE.[/COLLAPSE]
 

Sky Pirate

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing
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random was just that cruel to me =/

i think skypirate's wii just hates me though. we were playing with just neutrals on for a bit earlier that night, then he's like we need more counterpicks, so he turned on all of them, and immediately after we go to rainbow cruise, brinstar, and then ps2 back to back (like my 3 least favorite stages) >.<
Uhyahyahyahya... Just as planned.

- I've told you this before, but having it in print might help you remember. One thing I noticed is that you seem to love rolling into me or doing a stationary tech when you're downed, so I can usually just sit there grabbing and you'll roll right into it (which puts you right back into a bad situation). Olimar's grab is large enough that I can easily cover both of those options from a certain distance.

- If I feel I'm in real danger, I just start spacing Fsmash and laugh because you don't know how to deal with it.
MARTH MAINS, EDUCATE HIM!

- I like that funny little hopping thing you do. I can usually hit it with good Fsmash spacing (stutterstepped, etc., especially with Yellow), but you seem to get in okay if you Fair through the Purples, hop over my attacks and watch for a mixup.
Might want to watch my line for Yellows, because they seem good for screwing with your spacing.

- I'll also try to get a Purple to the front to toss/attack with when knocked off, so just pay attention to what I'm doing with my line offstage as well. If I don't have a purple, I will most likely try to recover low.

- I had a LOT of input errors in those games. ^^;
Just keep in mind that almost every time I Dash Attacked, I was trying to DACUS and many times when I just rolled into you I was trying to pivot grab. I think I DA'd on purpose only once, to try to hit you on the ledge.
Just a heads-up so you can see where I was trying to use it.

- Lastly, I was definitely trying to troll you with the Dairs offstage. If any Olimar takes action offstage against you, expect Fair more often than not. It comes out on frame 7 and is less likely to put us in a really bad position.
 

Cygnet

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 11, 2011
Messages
115
Watching Zorai's video made me think.... is it a good idea to Counter DK's up B when you see it coming at you, on stage or off?

And if it's not too much trouble, what recoveries should you Counter (if any...) and which in particular should you definitely not? I always think I should Counter IC's side B or DK's up B or things like that..... should I?

Thank you! :)
 

Zorai

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 6, 2008
Messages
329
Location
NYC
NNID
x_Zorai
@Cygnet

I found out after the set that the real DK killer is hopping off the ledge with a bair. Bair is underrated and destroys DKs up b recovery, even if he waits. Just make sure you time it.

Also, why counter ICs recovery? It's not that complicated.

:phone:
 

IG88

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Messages
28
Location
Austin, Tx
i sometimes like to drop off the ledge and counter toon links up b, which i've seen nike do multiple times as well but its not somethin i do every time. and ike isn't too hard either
 

MasterOfGalaxies

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 9, 2010
Messages
93
Location
Somewhere boring.
@Keys - I'm not very good against Diddy, so I can't say much, but one thing I did notice is when you did get one of his bananas, you threw it at him. This is not a particularly good option. You are just giving the banana right back to him if you throw it at him and aren't ready to follow up. At least glide toss and follow up, or use the banana to cover ff fairs by z dropping it or something. In some cases, it would even be better to just throw the banana offstage, because then he has to pull a new one out and you might be able to punish that, rather than throwing it at him for him to catch or block then pick up and use.
 

Player-3

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 11, 2008
Messages
8,994
Location
Georgia
i don't write up cj critiques but i can tell you what did wrong


you shorthopped way too much towards him, short hopping in general is bad vs diddy because it puts you in a very bad position


when you grab diddy at 0, always fthrow>fsmash unless you can get the fthrow spike off, because it tippers, does 24% and against diddy you need all the % you can get

you approchaed with sh fairs ALOT which is a HORRIBLE idea against diddy, when you whiff/hit his shield hes like lol okay and will just fair you if you whiff, or just wait if you hit his shield.
if you DJ away, you're ****ed because now you have to land, if you do a second fair, you get nanaed for 5% into 10% from a grab, not worth it

you also committed CONSTANTLY, you would do something like sh fair towards him and then keep drifitng towards him, and then suddenly panic when you had no idea what to do and throw out something that got you punished, you have to keep your spacing vs diddy or you will keep eating attacks

you tried to pivot grab him alot and in consequence it got you punished alot because you panicked when you missed,.


best ways to approach diddy is (if he has a banana, if he doesnt you can pressure him like normal characters, just make sure not to whiff a fair or else you will eat a fair lol) are to float around him without using a move and make him uncomfortable, cause him to toss a banana in panic, then grab the banana and use it as leverage to force your way into his zone


once you hit diddy you did a decent job of keeping the string up, but you really have to capitalize on the few times you get a hit off on diddy because hes extremely hard to hit.

when you got diddy oon the ledge you kept trying to ftilt him when he was on the ledge. ftilt is bad vs diddy on the ledge because his bair/fair will hit you before it can reach him, best way to edgeguardu diddy is to just do some nairs, or just stand and wait to see hwat he does. Careful about this, because diddys get up animation (no roll or attack) past 100% is EXTREMELY fast, so be wary of the getup grab, it works very well


you messed up your ganks on him all the time, which is understandable because ganking diddy is REALLY REALLY ****ING HARD. if you have a banana in your hand, it is very hard for the diddy to recover because you can z drop it ontop of his barrel flight path and knock him out. in match 1 there was a time where you were below him with a banana and he was forced to up b, and you up-bed into him when you could have drifted away and smacked him with it and gotten off a stage spike. things like that make or break the matchup because diddy ***** marth onstage and marth has to do everything he can offstage to rack up % or even take the stock

main things i guess i have to say about your matches specifically-

you just need to play with bananas more your item control wasn't as good as rags which put you at a large disadvantage from the start

STOP ROLLING ANYWHERE NEAR DIDDY WHEN HE HAS A BANANA. THE ONLY DIRECTION YOU ROLL IF DIDDY HAS A BANANA IS NONE BECAUSE YOU DONT ROLL IF HE HAS A BANANA AND IS ON THE GROUND, YOU WILL GET PUNISHED BECAUSE HE JUST HAS TO PRESS A BUTTON

alot of times you paniced after misreading something with a whiffed pivot grab and immediately rolled to get away, where if you had jsut stayed in your shield you could have grabbed the banana with an oos fair and probobly hit him away with the fair, leading into combos with the banana on his landing

play with bananas more honestly, learn when you can catch them and all that its the biggest part of hte diddy mu is knowing what to do when a banana hits your shield, or is on the ground infront of you.



holy **** this is the most i've written in a post in a while
 

Haze~

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
214
i sometimes like to drop off the ledge and counter toon links up b, which i've seen nike do multiple times as well but its not somethin i do every time. and ike isn't too hard either
i usually counter him(and link) until i get the right spacing for a spike/bair
 

Keys1281

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 9, 2008
Messages
207
Location
Madison, AL
Thank you so much! That helps a ton. I was going on autopilot for parts of this set, probably out of nervousness (such as drifting towards him all the time, even after he hit me and sidestepping when he was behind me [terrible]). I actually 2-0'd Ragnarok in pools beforehand but the bracket pressure got to me :S I know Marth has two Fthrows to an Fsmash, but at the beginning of match 1 I missed the Dair and inputted a Fair instead :/

/johns

Anyways, not rolling when Diddy has a naner will help me extremely, as I didn't even think about how easily he can punish it. Not fairing as well will help me out. I really should add empty shorthops to my game, as I hardly ever use that. Let me get this straight--you are saying to use Nair against Diddy when he is offstage? What if he ledgehop fairs? Or are you saying use that if he airdodges back?
 

Skel'D3

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 27, 2010
Messages
40
Hey, I've played a MU who was totally unknown for me vs one pretty good wolf.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMt0MC1AMfQ

This is friendlies so sometimes I wasnt playing so serious ( Like at 6.45, I was just sandbagging hard :awesome: ) but this friendlies refleat some of my marth skills so I would like to have some advices to keep better with my secondary.

Thank you guys :)

EDIT : Sorry, I havn't see the new part of the board of the critique thread when i've written this post, next time I will post it right there.
 
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