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The Official Election 2008 Thread!

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Aesir

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They couldn't draft anyway,
About a year ago it almost became a reality, you might want think about that because it's very possible for them to implement a draft
there is so much to learn about weapons and technology, it is not like WWII or Veitinam. Also well he said instaed of Staying in Iraq where t is calm he would attack the source like Alkida instead of staying in the calmer Iraq, and Afghanistan.
Basically he wants to throw away billions of dollars into a war that will be more fruitless then the Iraq war?

At least Iraq is somewhat winnable war, they have a stabilizing government with a arms force that has been working to protect it's own country.

There's no winning in that part of the world we'll just have spent more resources that could have gone to better causes, like social security reform, health care/medicare, or any of the hundreds of domestic problems we have in this country.
 

1337marth

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About a year ago it almost became a reality, you might want think about that because it's very possible for them to implement a draft


Basically he wants to throw away billions of dollars into a war that will be more fruitless then the Iraq war?

At least Iraq is somewhat winnable war, they have a stabilizing government with a arms force that has been working to protect it's own country.

There's no winning in that part of the world we'll just have spent more resources that could have gone to better causes, like social security reform, health care/medicare, or any of the hundreds of domestic problems we have in this country.
Well, he has very good Ideas, I feel like he can protect us. He has actually talked about money issues, he has very well planned things.
 

marthanoob

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Well, he has very good Ideas, I feel like he can protect us. He has actually talked about money issues, he has very well planned things.
Wow, that was one of the most obvious strawmans I have ever seen.

Anyway, although I disagree with Obama's foreign policy beliefs, I would still want him for president over McCain. (That's how you should write it.)
 

Eor

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I'm confused about how 1337's comment was a strawman
 

derek.haines

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In regards to the Afghanistan worries, we're already there. There is already a permanent contingent of soldiers there attempting to root out terrorists, and they've been there since before the invasion of Iraq. Obama believes (as does Colin Powell and others) that the efforts in Afghanistan should be increased because it's the location where you could hit the terrorist organizations the hardest.

As for Pakistan, it would never be a direct invasion. There are terrorists in Pakistan, to be sure, but there is also a government in power that supports the United States. Any military operations in Pakistan would not be in opposition to Pakistan, but in cooperation with them. It would only be an offensive against terrorists in the country.
 

RDK

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What Obama doesn't get is that if we haul off and invade Pakistan, etc., it's going to piss other Middle Eastern countries off. Sure, we can handle a war with a single, third-world, rock-throwing country, but we can't handle the entire Middle East at once. There are international concerns that have to be considered. Some of them have access to nuclear weapons.

Otherwise, we should have just gone in there and taken over the whole god **** place.

And can any pro-McCain people please cite where Obama ever stated he was going to tax people at the $40,000 margin? I've only heard him say $250,000 and up, but for some reason my dad (who would never consider not voting Republican--ever) is convinced that Obama is going to "tax the **** out of the middle class". I've never heard this. Ever.
 

Amide

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Obama's going to unfairly raise taxes for the rich, but your dad is dead wrong. In fact, he's going to lower taxes more than McCain at the $40,000 margin.
 

cman

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Obama's going to unfairly raise taxes for the rich, but your dad is dead wrong. In fact, he's going to lower taxes more than McCain at the $40,000 margin.
Around the $100,000 mark is where people would start to save more under McCain, below that people will save more under Obama (assuming they do what they say they will, which is doubtful) according to http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/06/09/ST2008060900950.html.

Why do you say unfairly? The rich make gobs of money exploited poor people (like in the current financial crisis where they essentially bet on mortgages, and left the homeowners to absorb the cost).

I'm not trying to argue that the poor deserve to be helped here, but saying 'unfairly' is a bit... odd? If you realize what i'm trying to point out.
 

Aesir

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http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/calculator/

for anyone who wants to run their own tests lol.

anyway I wanted to see what McCains chances are so I gave McCain all his leaning states and all the swing states, he comes up short. Then I gave him NH because McCain has a strong ability to reach independant voters which NH is full of.

He would be short by about 5 points.

He needs PA to win the election, it's like his only chance at winning this election.

Otherwise he's going to come up very short lol.
 

Amide

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@cman

You're probably right, I just wanted to seem fair, I do like Obama more than McCain. I wanted to show how large an 11.5% tax increase to a group is, taking from your link.
 

derek.haines

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http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/calculator/

for anyone who wants to run their own tests lol.

anyway I wanted to see what McCains chances are so I gave McCain all his leaning states and all the swing states, he comes up short. Then I gave him NH because McCain has a strong ability to reach independant voters which NH is full of.

He would be short by about 5 points.

He needs PA to win the election, it's like his only chance at winning this election.

Otherwise he's going to come up very short lol.
I love the FiveThirtyEight electoral projections: Currently a 96.29% chance of winning for Obama.
 
D

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If Obama gets assassinated, I will seriously consider moving to Europe. North America is going to go absolutely bat**** crazy.
 

Crimson King

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All that will happen is Biden will step in and every one of his programs, no matter how stupid or illogical they may be, modify them enough to become feasible, and they will go into effect. It happened with Kennedy, and Kennedy was an awful president. This is not how you go about changing something you don't like.

****.
 

Amide

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Part of my family thinks the McCain camp is feeding the fire with all of these ads scaring people about Obama. I actually think this could be true.
 

RDK

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All that will happen is Biden will step in and every one of his programs, no matter how stupid or illogical they may be, modify them enough to become feasible, and they will go into effect. It happened with Kennedy, and Kennedy was an awful president. This is not how you go about changing something you don't like.

****.
That's another thing I don't get either. People will praise Jack Kennedy up and down the wall, but he did basically nothing during his presidency.

Just because a candidate has "promise" (whatever the hell that means) doesn't mean they're automatically the best thing since sliced bread.
 

derek.haines

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That's another thing I don't get either. People will praise Jack Kennedy up and down the wall, but he did basically nothing during his presidency.

Just because a candidate has "promise" (whatever the hell that means) doesn't mean they're automatically the best thing since sliced bread.
Sliced bread isn't all that great. People like Kennedy because he stood up for the nation during the Cuban Missile Crisis and because he challenged the nation to better themselves with the race to the Moon.

And because he was genuinely likable and a good face for America. People like that, it counts for alot.
 

Aesir

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Sliced bread isn't all that great. People like Kennedy because he stood up for the nation during the Cuban Missile Crisis and because he challenged the nation to better themselves with the race to the Moon.

And because he was genuinely likable and a good face for America. People like that, it counts for alot.
Likability often times over shadows peoples judgments. JFK wasn't even a great president but he's seen as one.

Seriously JFK's presidency can be summed up like this:

-Failed US invasion on cuba

-Almost got us into a war with the USSR

-Started the Vietnam War

Oh yeah he started the space program and was a great public speaker.

If he lived out his term he wouldn't have been seen as a great but just another mediocre President.

As opposed to Nixon:

-Ended the Vietnam war

-Saw the first man go the Moon.

-Enacted man agencies like EPA, OSHA, ect...

Just to name a few.

But no one ever realizes this because his presidency no matter how successful is over shadowed by Watergate.

His presidency comes down to a problem, how can you label a president whom was so brilliant and successful when he was so morally lacking?

In away Obama is kinda reminiscent of Kennedy talks really well but in all honesty his policies are probably going to end up being the biggest failures we've seen to date.

And McCain if elected will probably see more of the same policies we've been seeing the past 8 years or so.
 

derek.haines

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Because The McCain campaign decided America doesn't quite dislike Palin enough yet...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wezdbLqRnzs
*faceplam*

Any time I see someone with a McCain/Palin bumper sticker, I just want to ask them, "Why? Why would you even want that?" It's pretty bad that Palin has managed to outdo Biden, who himself has a bad habit of sticking his foot in his mouth.
 
D

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Wow Aesir are you ********?

JFK did not want the Vietnam War to happen. It was largely to do with the fact that the administration heavily disagreed with JFK's beliefs. McNamara and LBJ had ultimately way more to do with invading Vietnam than JFK ever wanted.

To learn more, see the film Virtual JFK - Vietnam If Kennedy Had Lived. It's a great documentary and it shows you with very rare archival footage that he was against it.

Secondly, the US was already in a COLD WAR with the USSR. You might not be alive today had Kennedy not stopped the Cuban Missile Crisis. We were this close to entering World War 3 - Nuclear Boogaloo. This is why the assassination theories that suggest it was perpetrated by the administration are actually plausible. JFK went against the grain on a lot of things. He listened in constantly to military intelligence instead of being fed the daily "reports" that most presidents probably do. He was a brilliant speaker and if it wasn't for him, Russia would have a flag on the moon.

God I can't believe I know more about your country than some of you do.
 

Aesir

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Wow Aesir are you ********?
Wow, ad hominem is amazing isn't it?

JFK did not want the Vietnam War to happen. It was largely to do with the fact that the administration heavily disagreed with JFK's beliefs. McNamara and LBJ had ultimately way more to do with invading Vietnam than JFK ever wanted.
And I said he wanted when? Please point that out otherwise you're just sticking words in my mouth.

However it happened during his presidency and instead of speaking out against it he went with it. It wasn't until re-election came around did he want to pull out troops.

This is confirmed by LBJ, and McNamara.

To learn more, see the film Virtual JFK - Vietnam If Kennedy Had Lived. It's a great documentary and it shows you with very rare archival footage that he was against it.
The fact that it's "very" rare could very well mean it's fabricated or edited, much like what zeitgeist does.

But I'll check it out.

Secondly, the US was already in a COLD WAR with the USSR. You might not be alive today had Kennedy not stopped the Cuban Missile Crisis. We were this close to entering World War 3 - Nuclear Boogaloo. This is why the assassination theories that suggest it was perpetrated by the administration are actually plausible. JFK went against the grain on a lot of things. He listened in constantly to military intelligence instead of being fed the daily "reports" that most presidents probably do. He was a brilliant speaker and if it wasn't for him, Russia would have a flag on the moon.
I'm not talking about the Cuban Missile Crisis, I'm talking about the Bay of Pigs invasion. I'm sure you probably know it but for those of you who don't it was essentially this.

The Us government wanted to over throw castro so they trained ex cubans to infiltrate and create an uprising. This campaign went largely unsuccessful because of lack of air support and what not; it was poorly orchestrated.

That was the failed invasion.

JFK's actions were a gamble to say the least when dealing with USSR, we're lucky they backed off otherwise we probably wouldn't be here today. Hardly what I would call "good foreign policy"

God I can't believe I know more about your country than some of you do.
Keep telling yourself that.

maybe it'll be true eventually.
 
D

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Learn your fallacies bro. I'm not calling you wrong because you're dumb, I'm just calling you dumb in addition to tackling your "points".

And uninformed.

You said he "started" Vietnam - I'm trying to tell you that he was against it the entire time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY_FAdOJnqA

Virtual JFK is not comparable to Zeitgeist in anyway at all. It's been in film festivals around the world and been reviewed countless times. Regardless, the US has "almost" been in a hot war with the USSR since 1948 with the Berlin Blockade. Blaming it on JFK is just stupid. Watch the trailer.
 

Aesir

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Learn your fallacies bro. I'm not calling you wrong because you're dumb, I'm just calling you dumb in addition to tackling your "points".

And uninformed.

You said he "started" Vietnam - I'm trying to tell you that he was against it the entire time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY_FAdOJnqA



Virtual JFK is not comparable to Zeitgeist in anyway at all. It's been in film festivals around the world and been reviewed countless times. Regardless, the US has "almost" been in a hot war with the USSR since 1948 with the Berlin Blockade. Blaming it on JFK is just stupid. Watch the trailer.
Wow I'm uninformed now?

Anyway, giving JFK some sort of immunity of criticism because "we've been in hot waters before" is disregarding the facts.

This wasn't just a spur of the moment dispute against the two super powers this started because of an act of aggression by the his administration. If Kennedy never approved the "Bay of Pigs" attack there likely wouldn't have been a cuban Missile Crisis. All JFK did was just smooth over a problem he started. If that's how one measures greatness then we certainly have down played the word great haven't we?

anyway on vietnam: I'll watch the documentary I'll make a thread later and respond to your points then.

Because well this kinda doesn't belong in this thread.
 

Aesir

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Like religion. :)
Lol @ similarity.


anyway I'm conceding the Vietnam point, that war was never my forte anyway.

In any case. McCains only chance of winning is in PA and so far it isn't looking good.

McCains coffin is buried imo he just resembled bush way to much to be a viable candidate, he didn't put on the Maverick hat during the election and payed for it dearly.

It's not like he had to fight for the Christian Right to vote for him because honestly he's a Born again christian just like they are all he has to do is mention god and they'll flail around their arms screaming "WE LOVE MCCAIN"

He could have attracted the more liberal republican and independent voters if he stuck to his maverick ways rather then endorse the neo-conservative administration we've been subjected too. But he didn't he stuck to same formula bush stuck with. Not to mention Sarah Palin was a horrible pick.

But in a way McCain probably wouldn't have gotten where he is today if he didn't adopt the bush personality.
 

derek.haines

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In any case. McCains only chance of winning is in PA and so far it isn't looking good.

McCains coffin is buried imo he just resembled bush way to much to be a viable candidate, he didn't put on the Maverick hat during the election and payed for it dearly.

It's not like he had to fight for the Christian Right to vote for him because honestly he's a Born again christian just like they are all he has to do is mention god and they'll flail around their arms screaming "WE LOVE MCCAIN"

He could have attracted the more liberal republican and independent voters if he stuck to his maverick ways rather then endorse the neo-conservative administration we've been subjected too. But he didn't he stuck to same formula bush stuck with. Not to mention Sarah Palin was a horrible pick.

But in a way McCain probably wouldn't have gotten where he is today if he didn't adopt the bush personality.
Democrats simply cannot get comfortable. They have to keep reminding Obama supporters how important it is to come out and actually vote. They've made such a huge deal of the youth and how many of them endorse an Obama presidency, but if none of them come out to vote then it's all moot.

Personally, I vote by mail, so I've already cast my Obama vote, in vain though it might be since Arizona is going to McCain one way or another.
 

The Executive

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I would say that I'm halfway worried for good ol' red state Alabama, but that's just because college campuses are liberal hotbeds and that's really the only place any Obama surrogate campaigners have come. (Seriously, I don't think the man has even shown his face here. Even Hillary went down to Selma. Maybe BHO came down for the primaries, but I haven't heard anything from him since.)
 

derek.haines

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I would say that I'm halfway worried for good ol' red state Alabama, but that's just because college campuses are liberal hotbeds and that's really the only place any Obama surrogate campaigners have come. (Seriously, I don't think the man has even shown his face here. Even Hillary went down to Selma. Maybe BHO came down for the primaries, but I haven't heard anything from him since.)
It's just one of those states. Obama hasn't gone there for the same reason that McCain hasn't gone to California--there's nothing to gain from it. Regretfully, the Electoral College causes some states to become hotbeds of political campaigning because of their being regarded as able to legitimately swing to either candidate.

Alabama, like my own Arizona, is so far one way there's no point in the opposition candidate really making an appearance. They'll get some surrogates, sure, but the face of the organization is going to stay where he's needed the most, in those 'ol swing states.
 

Eor

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Arizona is actually starting to be considered a lean McCain state. Many think that if it wasn't for McCain it'd be a battleground state
 

derek.haines

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Arizona is actually starting to be considered a lean McCain state. Many think that if it wasn't for McCain it'd be a battleground state
Arizona can and will elect Democratic officials, such as Governor and Barack Obama supporter Janet Napolitano, so it's probably completely true that it would've been a battleground state minus McCain. As it stands though...
 

lonejedi

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Wow, this is like an Obama love fest in here.

Seriously though, I really don't understand the logic behind his policies.

He wants free healthcare for everybody, but says he's going to cut taxes.

He belives that paying teachers more money will improve education? What? Are you serious? All this will do is encourage more people who want to be teachers for money to actually become teachers.

He claims he'll cut taxes for those who make 250,000 dollar, oh wait,, 200,000, no wait Biden said 150,000. His campaign has stated 3 different dollar amounts. Which amount is he going to choose?

He wants to raise taxes on selling stock, during a recession? What the heck? How is that going to encourage new investors? That's only going to encourage those who are investing to sell before he can put this law into affect.

I really can't understand how you can seriously blame our economy problem on this administration. Our economy is in the tank because of the housing crisis, which Bush tried to save 3 times. But nobody listened to him. The democrats brought upon themselves when they gave people an easier chance at a home loan that these people could not afford. And since McCain is the republican nominee, he's getting associated with it.
 

Crimson King

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Our economic situation is NOT just the housing crisis. That is just propaganda put for by the people who caused it.

As for cutting taxes, of course he will say that, but democrats don't cut taxes. Keep in mind, he downplays that he is taxing the high brackets of society, and focusing on cutting taxes on the middle class. What this does in reality is give him the same, if not more money to work with, tax-wise, while pleasing middle class America who is more likely to vote for him. He knows what is he doing when he says anything regarded economics. If he will actually follow through, there is no way to determine until he's in office.
 

derek.haines

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How in the world is paying teachers more money a bad thing? They're really, really underpaid as it is. As in, they make hardly more than minimum wage in many situations. Qualified people are scared off from from becoming teachers because it's so easy to take their degrees and expertise and earn more money virtually anywhere else. So will paying teachers more improve education? Perhaps not directly, but it's a big step in right direction.
 

Eor

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He claims he'll cut taxes for those who make 250,000 dollar, oh wait,, 200,000, no wait Biden said 150,000. His campaign has stated 3 different dollar amounts. Which amount is he going to choose?
$250,000 for families, $200,000 for individuals. Biden was right to say that people making $150,000 will get a tax cut, he did not say "over $150,000 will get an increase"

He wants to raise taxes on selling stock, during a recession? What the heck? How is that going to encourage new investors? That's only going to encourage those who are investing to sell before he can put this law into affect.
The increase in the capital gains tax would be roughly 5%, and again only affect the above groups.

I really can't understand how you can seriously blame our economy problem on this administration. Our economy is in the tank because of the housing crisis, which Bush tried to save 3 times. But nobody listened to him. The democrats brought upon themselves when they gave people an easier chance at a home loan that these people could not afford. And since McCain is the republican nominee, he's getting associated with it.
Blaming a single organization (or party) is ridiculous. It was a combination of the federal reserve, congress, both Clinton and Bush's administration, home buyers, mortgate brokers, and others.

As for cutting taxes, of course he will say that, but democrats don't cut taxes.
And libertarians just want to be able to legally discriminate against blacks
 

lonejedi

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How in the world is paying teachers more money a bad thing? They're really, really underpaid as it is. As in, they make hardly more than minimum wage in many situations. Qualified people are scared off from from becoming teachers because it's so easy to take their degrees and expertise and earn more money virtually anywhere else. So will paying teachers more improve education? Perhaps not directly, but it's a big step in right direction.
Are you serious? Maybe teaching else where is bad, but in WI, the more you teach, the more money you have a chance to make. My Biology teacher, who had been teaching in the district for a decent amount of time, was making 60,000 dollars for a 9 month period. In the regular day, that teacher had 2 off hours, one for a study hall, one for lunch. So that means he taugh for approximately 6 hours. Then he used those other two hours to correct things. In fact, most teachers use scantron now for tests, so they don't even have to correct those. They also get days off for Winter Break, Spring Break, and any other day the students get off.

Sure I think teachers should get paid more, but how is that going to improve our system? The teachers that are there are going to teach good regardless of their pay.

$250,000 for families, $200,000 for individuals. Biden was right to say that people making $150,000 will get a tax cut, he did not say "over $150,000 will get an increase"
Not to mention Obama was heard saying 75,000 dollars recently. And I'm sorry but, most small businesses make around 250,000. For example, my friend's family owns a landscaping company in the area of where I live. The company takes care of the surrounding cities, to a max population of about 500,000. There are other competitors to this company, and they have a good chunk of employees under him. But they are still considered by no means a big business. In this tax cut plan, he would have his taxes raised. Meaning he'd have to compensate that tax raise, with a raise in services. Which would mean those who want landscaping would have to pay more, which means they'd be getting screwed as well.

This is going to happen to almost every company. If you think that tax cuts to the middle class are going to improve this economy, you're dreaming. These companies are going to raise prices, which mean all the money you got from your tax cut, is going to go back to them.

The increase in the capital gains tax would be roughly 5%, and again only affect the above groups.
I am 18, and Im starting to invest this year. I ony have so much money i can spend, but now Im going to lose another 5 bucks for every 100 bucks that I spend. Im not a huge fan of that, why should I lose more. And what about those who use the market as a retirement plan? If they sell their stocks for their money for retirement, and have 100,000 dollars saved up, that's an additonal 5,000 that they lose plus the original rate.

Blaming a single organization (or party) is ridiculous. It was a combination of the federal reserve, congress, both Clinton and Bush's administration, home buyers, mortgate brokers, and others.
I find that slightly ironic. Now we don't put the full blame on the presidency? But when everything else goes wrong, we can? When prices were high, who got the blame for it? The Bush Administration. But when they went down, it was because our economy was bad. You do realize that the stock market hit almost a career high during the Bush Administration, yet he got no credit for that, but as soon as it went down, the economy was blamed on them. The democrats were the ones defending Fannie May, up until they crashed. Sure it's really the greedy banks who let them have loans, fully knowing they couldn't pay, but if it wasn't for the bill that gave home owners an easier down payment, we wouldn't be in this crisis.
 
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