The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Meru.]

Zelda is the most underplayed character in the game imo. I know lots of people use the argument 'underplayed' in their posts, but I think Zelda is really the most underplayed character in the game, which is imo the biggest cause of her enormous drop: almost no one plays her, and this might also give people the wrong idea of Zelda.

 

[san.]

When I use jiggs, I will attempt to plank as much as possible.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm gonna love it when people try to plank me with anyone other than MK. I know how to get around that stuff, lol.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I don't see a planking ban on the BBR ruleset...

I was told they did. And it seriously should be banned. But ether way tournies around here bann that nonsense.

that isn't true though. I think people just don't know that match up. even D3 out ranges her and can force an approach out of her.

Yes it is true. I think You dont know about Both DDD and Zelda as well as how that match up goes. And DDD can not force an approach on Zelda. What makes you think he can?

 

[adumbrodeus]

I was told they did. And it seriously should be banned. But ether way tournies around here bann that nonsense.

We are considering it, at this point there's clear evidence that it's banworthy (my quote was "mk took a level in akuma" after seeing DMG's thread in tactical), the problem is finding a way to ban it legitimately.


At the moment I've pretty much decided to bite the bullet and main MK's planking, and I think I've got a pretty good idea of how to deal with the ledge-grab rule (combination of air-planking, scrooging, and waiting to just drop when the opponent isn't at a threatening distance), so we'll see how it pans out. Hopefully I'll figure out a way to really ban it.



Note: This represents my personal opinion, and not the opinion of the BBR on this matter.

 

[<π]

Red link can get around MK planking. bombs son!

 

[OverLade]

Red link can get around MK planking. bombs son!

And good thing he also has a 60:40 matchup against MK to make the ability to fight planking relevant...

 

[adumbrodeus]

Before saying ANYTHING beats planking, check DMG's thread guys.

 

[da K.I.D.]

link it.

10 ledgegrabs

 

[adumbrodeus]

link it.

10 ledgegrabs

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=267257


Top thread in tactical before this post, I keep an eye on tactical threads for interesting info.

 

[<π]

I was told they did. And it seriously should be banned. But ether way tournies around here bann that nonsense.



Yes it is true. I think You dont know about Both DDD and Zelda as well as how that match up goes. And DDD can not force an approach on Zelda. What makes you think he can?

ftilt and waddles. the fact that he can use ftilt really messes with what zelda can and can't do. if he is in ftilt range you can't attack anymore because he can punish you with ftilt. Zelda has to either leave ftilt range or get close if she wants to do something and since zelda is so slow that is rarely something to be afraid of.

waddles are similar they are safe to throw out at medium->long range in this match up again citing zelda's "meh" projectile and her movement speeds. once on stage their attacks and placement again force actions.

D3 has better defensive options than zelda he can sheild grab improperly spaced fsmashes far easilr than the rest of the cast and has bair OOS.

Zelda does have some hip tools in her dtilt and perfect spaced fsmash, usmash and dash attack as anti airs, but all that considered she just barely beats out D3's ground options if at all. Even with fresh moves she can't kill d3 till high percents 130 and that suck because her best kill moves are also her best spacing tools and stuff so it's rare they'll every really be fresh.

if zelda is coming in from the air or if it's and air to air bout d3 will always win hands down. he out ranges her in every situation. If zelda is ever hit off stage she going to have it rough. he upB has years of start up time which makes for easy to time bairs, and tons of ending lag which means if she is getting back on stage she may very well be meeting one of D3's smashes or even a quick attack like utilt which also kills zelda pertty early.

Zelda has the same problems in this match up she does in every one.

Zelda is a character you can't just rush into. I can beat anyone who is going to mindlessly approach me because of zelda's great defensive options. Since D3's whole meta game has always been about that; rushing in and intimidating people with grabs or rar bair, and forcing reactions it's no wonder zelda's multi hit fsmash is so powerful, if you camp zelda and wait for her to do stuff it's hard to not see why she is bad. She has about as many answers to camp and wall games as gdorf.

Zelda is my secondary BTW. I main sheik.

 

[<π]

Before saying ANYTHING beats planking, check DMG's thread guys.

yeah frame perfect you get 21 frames of invulnerability after letting go of the ledge but once you let go of the ledge there you have to wait 30 frames until re grab.

thats nine frames of vulnerability at least every time. obviously bombs (and other attacks too if you are amazing, lol) have a nice sizable window to hit the opponent or at the very least force them away from the edge.

 

[adumbrodeus]

If you're ftilting in range to force her to approach, you're doing it wrong, that thing can be perfect shielded on reaction, it's MUCH better as a spacer (in other words, controls space as a threat). Futhermore, vertical spacing beats it.

Waddles get perfect shielded easily, they extend the length of hitboxes, and control space, and counter other projectiles, they never force approach.


Honestly, both of their defensive games win over the other, and neither forces the other to approach.

yeah frame perfect you get 21 frames of invulnerability after letting go of the ledge but once you let go of the ledge there you have to wait 30 frames until re grab.

thats nine frames of vulnerability at least every time. obviously bombs (and other attacks too if you are amazing, lol) have a nice sizable window to hit the opponent or at the very least force them away from the edge.

The bigger issue is what MK can do out of it... again read the thread.

Yes, you can, but not on reaction, and with MK's god tier uair...

 

[<π]

just drop a bomb off the edge MK can't uair it he has to move or air dodge. Zero risk to myself, I did it on reaction to MK letting go of the stage, and bomb drop is lagless so it's not like you are locked into some position where you can react to what MK is gonna do next. At worst I get control of that edge of the stage for 40+ frames.

 

[Dark.Pch]

ftilt and waddles. the fact that he can use ftilt really messes with what zelda can and can't do. if he is in ftilt range you can't attack anymore because he can punish you with ftilt. Zelda has to either leave ftilt range or get close if she wants to do something and since zelda is so slow that is rarely something to be afraid of.

waddles are similar they are safe to throw out at medium->long range in this match up again citing zelda's "meh" projectile and her movement speeds. once on stage their attacks and placement again force actions.

D3 has better defensive options than zelda he can sheild grab improperly spaced fsmashes far easilr than the rest of the cast and has bair OOS.

Zelda does have some hip tools in her dtilt and perfect spaced fsmash, usmash and dash attack as anti airs, but all that considered she just barely beats out D3's ground options if at all. Even with fresh moves she can't kill d3 till high percents 130 and that suck because her best kill moves are also her best spacing tools and stuff so it's rare they'll every really be fresh.

if zelda is coming in from the air or if it's and air to air bout d3 will always win hands down. he out ranges her in every situation. If zelda is ever hit off stage she going to have it rough. he upB has years of start up time which makes for easy to time bairs, and tons of ending lag which means if she is getting back on stage she may very well be meeting one of D3's smashes or even a quick attack like utilt which also kills zelda pertty early.

Zelda has the same problems in this match up she does in every one.

Zelda is a character you can't just rush into. I can beat anyone who is going to mindlessly approach me because of zelda's great defensive options. Since D3's whole meta game has always been about that; rushing in and intimidating people with grabs or rar bair, and forcing reactions it's no wonder zelda's multi hit fsmash is so powerful, if you camp zelda and wait for her to do stuff it's hard to not see why she is bad. She has about as many answers to camp and wall games as gdorf.

Zelda is my secondary BTW. I main sheik.

Waddle dees dont force an approach opn Zelda. If DDD wants to camp me, all I do is Jab the things. I fresh moves. Also while you are tossing waddle dees, you are in risk of eating a tins fire. So safe I have to go to you when you tossing them? And it is not hard for me to snipe you with a dins fire at that.

Ftilt is another no no. If you was to starting hitting me or my shield with that move, you would have to be coming to me. Zelda does not have to be going near you when you doing that move nether. And if you are in range, power shield, to Dash attack.

DDD can not camp Zelda with Waddle dees and tilts dude.

 

[JRob]

Zelda gets a free lightning kick if she jumps as D3 ftilts. It's really not a very safe poking move to use liberally- only occasionally, and often times when she's landing, really.

 

[Flayl]

Can't Zelda Nayru's love Waddle Dee/Doo on reaction? They're not very fast projectiles.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Nayru's love sux, I'm pretty sure she can Din's fire him on reaction depending on the range though, need to frame data it.

 

[<π]

Oh... no you guys didn't read what I wrote. D3 has a much larger zoning ability than zelda on the ground. I limit your options just by putting you in my zone. waddles increase my zone as long as they are on stage. you probably won't jab a waddle if I'm in ftilt range for example.

It is obvious ftilt and can be shielded but against zelda you can use it to limit her options. she effectively can't do anything that I cannot punish on reaction if she is in my ftilt range. That was my point in the previous post.

 

[Dark.Pch]

just drop a bomb off the edge MK can't uair it he has to move or air dodge. Zero risk to myself, I did it on reaction to MK letting go of the stage, and bomb drop is lagless so it's not like you are locked into some position where you can react to what MK is gonna do next. At worst I get control of that edge of the stage for 40+ frames.

You need to actually know about frames and how this game works. Peach has that same option to stop meta from planking with turnips. But do you seriously know how diffucult that is to do? So you did it one good time. Lets see you dot it over and over and over again, then bring it up. Plus meta has other insane options if the player was to even see you trying this.

 

[adumbrodeus]

You're missing the point, how does he force Zelda to approach?

Honestly, I don't wanna do a complete write-up on this MU at the moment, but we're redoing the Zelda boards MU soon, when that occurs I'll do everything, but atm need to get some frame and hitbox data.

 

[Nanaki]

You need to actually know about frames and how this game works. Peach has that same option to stop meta from planking with turnips. But do you seriously know how diffucult that is to do? So you did it one good time. Lets see you dot it over and over and over again, then bring it up. Plus meta has other insane options if the player was to even see you trying this.

Yeah, this. MK can also just downB the ledge during his invincibility frames. Odds are the bomb's not going to hit unless he misses the sweetspot on the downB. Either way, if he sees you coming, he can always just glide to the other side and Link's not nearly fast enough to get there before him.

You're missing the point, how does he force Zelda to approach?

Honestly, I don't wanna do a complete write-up on this MU at the moment, but we're redoing the Zelda boards MU soon, when that occurs I'll do everything, but atm need to get some frame and hitbox data.

Whoever is behind ends up having to approach really, as both have PS-able on reaction projectiles.

Overall, I guess it's not that bad of a matchup against D3, especially for a low tier. I definitely wouldn't call it "good" though.

 

[Shaya]

Why does D3 need to WORRY ABOUT APPROACHING when Zelda lacks any form of mobility required to stop D3 from just walking up to her and outprioritising her with ftilt and bair and shield grabbing everything else because of Shield DI/

Zeldas evasive options are... subpar.
D3s walking defensive options are top 5 in the game.

The match up is not good for Zelda.
She LOSES to like EVERY CHARACTER IN THE GAME until the now E tier. Unless I am missing some other match up that occurs before hand, this character is Bowser.

 

[Nanaki]

Zelda vs. Bowser...I could actually maybe see being actually in her favor. I have so little experience with that matchup that I don't really want to comment on it, though. It seems like another defense v. defense fight, though.

 

[Spelt]

Doesn't seem like zelda really has any tools to stop from being grabbed though...
and that's really all bowser needs to rack up some damage.
even kill.

 

[Nanaki]

Dsmash for gtfo, Fsmash to space. Seems like those would prevent grabs pretty well if Bowser were to try to ninja a grab.

Bowser's grab range is also pretty tiny.

 

[D1]

Also yeah... Zelda being 3rd worst...? ............wat.... Geez... Dropped 9 spots.... I really don't think she's THAT bad....

2ndedededed

 

[Dark.Pch]

Why does D3 need to WORRY ABOUT APPROACHING when Zelda lacks any form of mobility required to stop D3 from just walking up to her and outprioritising her with ftilt and bair and shield grabbing everything else because of Shield DI/

Zeldas evasive options are... subpar.
D3s walking defensive options are top 5 in the game.

The match up is not good for Zelda.
She LOSES to like EVERY CHARACTER IN THE GAME until the now E tier. Unless I am missing some other match up that occurs before hand, this character is Bowser.

You must have missed the part where I explained that DDD Ftilt is not serious on Zelda dude. That walking Ftiling is nothing and just about anyione can abuse DDD for it. I think you should do your homework more then tal;k about characters that you dont know too much about. Really ones that you overbashing to no end.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Why does D3 need to WORRY ABOUT APPROACHING when Zelda lacks any form of mobility required to stop D3 from just walking up to her and outprioritising her with ftilt and bair and shield grabbing everything else because of Shield DI/

Zeldas evasive options are... subpar.
D3s walking defensive options are top 5 in the game.

The match up is not good for Zelda.
She LOSES to like EVERY CHARACTER IN THE GAME until the now E tier. Unless I am missing some other match up that occurs before hand, this character is Bowser.

Empty ftilts = lightning kicks, ftilts in the neutral position = perfect shield-> punish.

Zelda has large powerful hitboxes and can cover literally any angle DDD can bair, and outlast/punish his airdodge.


They've both got powerful defensive games, so honestly, nobody wants to do ANYTHING in this MU.

 

[Shaya]

When did I say dedede throws out empty anything?

Outranged and outprioritised whilst at the same time not exactly having much worse mobility.
OH BUT WHAT IF DEDEDE THROWS OUT AN FTILT I CAN PUNISH IT
Yeah, why would he when he would only use it to punish Zelda, and once hes that close its shield = win time.

Arguing match ups on things that dont need to happen, good work guys.

Dedede was once upon a time my secondary that I used a lot in tournaments. Zelda has nothing to keep Dedede away (for long) and has nothing to get herself away. Dedede has a shield that laughs at everything Zelda has.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Also check this out. You have a character that cant force an approach against a character that cant approach.

 

[Shaya]

Uhhh, how does Zelda stop Dedede just walking towards her? Nothing?
All of this whilst outranging and out prioritising her moves?
Are you kidding me?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

He still has to be careful of what he commits on her.

He can approach much better than vice versa, but he still can't just spam Ftilt and expect her to not to punish it. She has some counter measures.

 

[ShadowLink84]

excuse me but ive been saying that zelda is bottom 5 in the game since the 3rd tier list came out, I didnt jump on this bandwagon, I BUILT it.

Malcolm was saying it from the very beginning.
-.-

Dont take credit for what you have not done.

 

[adumbrodeus]

When did I say dedede throws out empty anything?

Outranged and outprioritised whilst at the same time not exactly having much worse mobility.
OH BUT WHAT IF DEDEDE THROWS OUT AN FTILT I CAN PUNISH IT
Yeah, why would he when he would only use it to punish Zelda, and once hes that close its shield = win time.

Arguing match ups on things that dont need to happen, good work guys.

Dedede was once upon a time my secondary that I used a lot in tournaments. Zelda has nothing to keep Dedede away (for long) and has nothing to get herself away. Dedede has a shield that laughs at everything Zelda has.

Zelda doesn't mind DDD up close, as long as it isn't close enough to grab. Vertical spacing does beat it out too.

And Zelda isn't slow enough to get punished for ground moves by ftilt on reaction it's a good landing trap for her.

Basically, when DDD does something, Zelda can punish it, the reverse is also true, this is a wierd MU.

 

[Shaya]

Zelda doesn't mind DDD up close, as long as it isn't close enough to grab. Vertical spacing does beat it out too.

And Zelda isn't slow enough to get punished for ground moves by ftilt on reaction it's a good landing trap for her.

Basically, when DDD does something, Zelda can punish it, the reverse is also true, this is a wierd MU.

How is Zelda going to vertically space well when shes terrible in the air? D3 may be a bit of a fattie in terms of targets for the fair/bair; but as Ive mentioned time and time again, he outranges her in the air (Im pretty sure his bairs arc can hit through her fsmash), and her on the ground isnt great considering the prospects of shield DI.

Zeldas longest range moves are... ftilt... fsmash.. dtilt... dash attack. I believe D3s dtilt outspeeds and/OR outranges all of those bar fsmash.

Her mobility is terrible. She is SLOW in that regard. Dedede at least has an amazing fast fall speed and 3 jumps to boost his mobility above what abysmal levels Zelda has. Dedede can bair to beat out all of her moves through vertical spacing, and b-reverse Inhale to super armor through her fsmash/multiple dtilts too.

I dont see how Zelda can punish well spaced d3 bairs, inhale (Naryus love is okay...). Plus struggling to approach herself whilst D3 can shieldgrab or utilt oos all her moves bar super well spaced grounded fsmashes and maybe nair.

Tack on kill power because of weight and move decay and Zelda is failing... Using Zelda against D3 for the kill is one of the few match ups Sheik would bother to do so in. But thats abusing the decay list clearing and not of zeldas real merits in a match up.

 

[JRob]

You guys seem to be missing a major point.

You have D3 and Zelda... D3's ftilt distance away from each other.

Look at the incentives both characters have for moving from their spots. Zelda could get ftilted while NOTHING CAN HAPPEN TO D3 that can't be avoided on reaction.

This means D3 can walk up to ftilt range, and just sit there... maybe dash back... roll back... maybe turn around and do an empty short hop...

Point is, he's safe. Zelda is the one who HAS to move around, and she's very, very terrible at it.

D3 is the one setting the pace of the match; he's the one that's able get the other on the move. Once you've figured that out it's a matter of playing a very patient zoning game- lots of feint attacks, some ftilts, and LOTs of really safe shielding and rolling away- all to catch Zelda in bad spots which DO come. Outspace her with f-airs, run under her with shields, and catch some landings with ftilt. That's how you'll be dealing damage.

gg Zelda

 

[Browny]

DDD doesnt care about what zelda can do in super theory bros. brawl, he will beat her over and over and over again IRL and no one will ever prove otherwise. theres a reason why bad characters are voted bottom tier, and its not because they can beat top tier characters.

Its not like DDD is some anomaly amongst the best characters where all of his flaws are suddenly highlighted against one bad character, If zelda honestly stood a realistic chance against DDD she would be able to abuse whatever she can in that MU vs a whole range of characters. then you take into consideration that a lot of characters are worse than DDD, and she loses every single matchup vs them... and why the hell are people discussing zelda vs ddd anyway rofl.

please tell me theres more to being let into the SBR than theorycraftintg ability...

 

[adumbrodeus]

Zelda shields out of walk, ftilt perfect shielded!

As for what zelda can do if DDD just walks... i dunno, jab and dtilt are both options.


Zelda can beat out bair with frame 6 up-smash.


As far as vertical spacing, what I mean is just jump over it if your expect it.


Just ftilt, it's too slow, you're asking to get perfect shielded and punished, it's useful just outside it's range. At the edge of ftilt range, DDD has nothing to threaten zelda with.


As far as bair, I'm pretty sure it's the reverse, that said, they exchange hits, I've sweetspotted DDD's on their feet with that hitbox.



Ehhh, I'll do a complete write-up for it when the Zelda boards come to it again, at the moment we're just tossing out random attributes and hoping they still. Feel free to drop by however.

 

[Red Arremer]

Dudley beats MK 70-30. Discuss.