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The North Carolina Melee Power Rankings! Updated 8/14/14!

RaphaelRobo

RaphaelRobo

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Dr Peepee said:
lmao mahone adam comes to bigger events so we'll just try to hype up the next ncsu or whatever and then you'll both come and it'll be **** =)
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Says the guy who didn't come to the last NCSU.

Every NCSU I'm at is going to be recorded and/or streamed. How's that for hype?
 
RaphaelRobo

RaphaelRobo

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Dr Peepee said:
LOL I'm like at everything bit. I can drop attendance after a major once in a while imo. =p
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You're forgetting the last NCSU was my first tournament. I don't know anything about your attendance record before that.

Also, I'll MM people with my Kirby. I decided to mess around on him, and it turns out I'm better at Kirby than I am with every non-Ganon character.
 
RaphaelRobo

RaphaelRobo

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I don't have a secondary. I just mess around on various characters when I don't feel like practicing tech skill. Besides, half the time my friends ban Ganon because they get tired of me winning. Then I beat them using either Fox or Kirby. It's kind of sad when my friends think Ganon is OP.

EDIT: Actually, if I made Kirby my secondary, my friends would probably start thinking Ganon and Kirby are the best two characters in the game. That could be kind of funny.
 
RaphaelRobo

RaphaelRobo

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I might try to talk a few of them into it, i.e. the ones who I think actually care about improving. I'm having a get together at my house for all of them, so I'll take some time to teach wavedashing, spacing, and other more complicated stuff to some of them.

However, I am looking forward to playing Brawl with them. It's a lot more even there, because I have no clue what I'm doing. Ganon's terrible, so I play Olimar like a melee Ganon. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing. I still end up beating most of them, though.

Some guys who had already graduated showed up at school the other day. They both had actually played melee before, and knew what they were talking about. It was pretty cool to be able to sit there and discuss Melee with them. I'm going to try to practice with them before the winterfest.
 
RaphaelRobo

RaphaelRobo

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I thought playing Ganon in brawl was the same as playing as Jigglypuff and breaking my shield 4 times. Am I wrong about that?
 
RaphaelRobo

RaphaelRobo

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I need to be good at Brawl, though. I'm going to be at state next year, and I don't want stingers to beat me really badly. Just kind of badly.
 
Dr Peepee

Dr Peepee

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In that case the Ganon in Brawl thing is probably not in your best interest haha.

You still have plenty of solid choices for characters to play though.
 
Dorsey

Dorsey

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In a nutshell, things the panel has affirmed about the PRs:

1. The PRs are used for seeding
2. the PRs are not a list of the best people that compete in NC tournaments
3. The PRs are not based off tournament placing(who does best at NC tournaments), for the reason of #4 being more important.
4. The PRs are based off who v. who

Karn's gripe's with the my propositions:

lord karn said:
I'll explain the situation I am talking about in detail.

There is a PR period. Various players get ranked using your system. A new tournament happens. We seed everyone based off your PRs. Some random new player enters the tournament who is pretty good (kinda like PP at his first tourney). He ends up playing the number 1 seed first or second round and loses. First round in losers he ends up playing someone who is PRd and wins. Next round he loses to another PRd player. Let's say he ends up getting 17th or 13th or something like that.

Another tournament happens in that ranking period. Same exact thing happens.

Then another tournament happens. Same exact thing happens. Ranking period is now over.

Based off your rankings, this random new player would not be ranked (unless the players in the above spots were just really inconsistent and he somehow managed to get on). So he ends up not getting ranked, probably with many of the players he beat getting on.

So next ranking period rolls around. This player gets a low seed again because he didn't make it on. Again he has to fight one of the best players first/second round. Again he ends up placing around 13th even though he may have beaten several PRd players.

The moral of the story is that this newly skilled player has to become significantly better than the players who are already PRd to make it on the list. This just seems completely unintuitive to me. If this guy is actually better than a lot of these players, which he proved by beating several of them across a few tournaments, he should ****ing be on the rankings. Not only is it unfair to him, but it's unfair to the other good players who happened to get him first or second round when they should have gotten an easier match.

You're right that it would be unfair to give him a good seed going into the first tournament he was going into. As an unproven player he deserves a low seed at first. But after he has proven himself a few times in tourney, he deserves a higher seed. Using a placement based system, he has to become way better than the currently PRd guys to have a shot at making it on the rankings because he goes into the tournament with a significant disadvantage. This just creates a system where the same people keep getting PRd and having an unfair advantage to win money.
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lord karn said:
The seed you go into the tournament period with does definitely affect your ability to place well. That's what it is supposed to do, though, because players who have proven themselves should not have to play each other first round. However, in my system, as soon as a player beats anyone good they immediately become considered for the next PR (they've proven themselves). So my system affects how likely a player is to play a greater amount of sets that matter.

However, not only does your system affect a player's chance to play important sets (which i have no problem with, as that is the basic function of any PR system), but it also affects the way we interpret the data itself. In a sense, then, a placement based system counts a players seed against them twice, both in the accumulation of data (where it should count), but also in the way we interpret the data (because placement is highly affected by seed). In my system, when we look at set counts, we are not considering seeding at all.
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lord karn said:
Well I'm typically the main person who seeds tournament in NC, along with PP, and I can guarantee you you are not at the bottom. I mean, maybe at Hickory you were, I wasn't there, but at the G6s you've generally had a seed of around 4 or 5 or something like that. There were handfuls of players with lower seeds.

And yeah, pools help a ton. You still have to seed the pools, though.
Click to expand...


Additionally, 5. Karn mainly does the seeding, and Kevin(see quote directly above).

So... shall I starkly delve? It is starkly so!


There are the two tournaments out of four Karn attended, that counted for the most recent PR period.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=311005&highlight=tgm3

Karn gets 7th out of 13th. He beats no one notable, he lost to Chris and Stingers.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=311870&highlight=ncsu

Karn gets 17th out of 25. He beats no one notable, he lost to Mahone and Sushi.

---

Alright, so here comes the latest NCSU, karn attending so I can only assume that he did the seeding, and if not certainly assisted with it.

Link here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=314800 (it shows the bracket and pool data... stingers, you are the MAN btw)



Why was karn placed in the easiest(debatable with 2nd easiest, I guess) pool if seeding is TRULY done by the PR / the process that dictates the PR?


lord karn said:
yeah, pools help a ton. You still have to seed the pools, though.
Click to expand...
What other conclusion can I make by looking at the data then seeing which pool you were in? What I've said all along, the seeding wasn't done right. You do realize that messing up the seeding in pools can have an even worse affect than just seeding a bracket off CORRECT data, right? It would seem so from your posts, but not demonstrated.

I then notice that you received the 2nd best #1 seed from your performance in the easiest pool, not to mention that even concerning performance in pools Boss and Danny Mexico both had better set count records than you.


So, Karn got a good placing without actually beating anyone(an exact scenario he mentioned), which is unfair to non-PR'd people just like he said....It's literally one of the main situations he described. But wouldn't ya know it, it was from bad seeding(Big Daddy Dorsey's memory is going but it almost seems like I've said this before). I guess the plus side is seeing Boss clean sweep all our semi-decent players that attended, with generic yet effective plumber combos, in tourney opposed to just half of them(half-way sarcastic with that last sentence).


In short:

Worst case scenario with basing our rankings off of tournament placing: We have a list of who does the best at NC tournaments. We should do this.

SEEDING is what should be based off who beats who, and the panel should control this. If you beat someone that IS seeded above you or below you, your seeding value (x) should fluctuate as it does in ANY competitive seeding, poll, or ranking. It's a self-sufficient process, but the basis would undoubtedly(something to initially go by) be started out with some kind of "pre-season rating"(like other competitive events), in which objective data is plugged into to CONSTANTLY until it turns into an ever-changing, beautiful process. Take "pre-season" college basketball rankings for an example: The polls already had a good, subjective idea of who the top teams are, and they use this subjective seeding data to measure the impact certain wins/losses will have on a team's rank. Amongst the 30+ games played by each team in a season though, the list is fine-tuned over-time with objective data which in essence, IS who v. who(except there's no sport seasons.. competitive smash is continuous). Amongst the panel's discretion with who v. who, they should be at least comparing seeding value (x) to seeding value (y) to better measure future seeding. I mean wtf... How can you realistically seed a handful of above avg players in our state properly? With an actual seeding point system you could have 5 players within a few tenths of a point, but at least you have the data to show WHY they got that certain seed.

This is what we should not do:

Seed players SLIGHTLY different because they are from the same region.
Seed players SLIGHTLY different to avoid sheik ditto MUs, IC v. peach, etc.
Seed players SLIGHTLY different because of any preconceived notions.
etc.

If the pools are seeded properly(unlike at the recent NCSU), then great. If there isn't pools, and say 18 people come to a tournament, you just list them 1-18 solely dependent on who beats who. #17 and #18 play a pre-lim. match to see who plays the #5 seed, seeds 1-4 all get BYES. And don't make any "SLIGHT" changes.....

Karn, sorry to call you out. In light of realizing I was being mocked for my ideas on this for months on the brocator thread by my name, I decided to share it.

Everyone is welcome to tear my post apart like ravenous wolves. Bring it on.
 
B

Bl@ckChris

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basically, karn and josh's pool position should've been switched. idk why pools were made where chu, boss, josh, and stingers were not the preconceived #1 seeds, but they weren't.

edit: if seeding is based off of who v. who, and the pr's should be used for seeding, then...what's the problem again? where does placement and points have to come in?
 
B

Bl@ckChris

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oh wow lol at boss and chu originally in same pool.

what a funny tournament.

edit: i wonder if karns pool was the pool i wouldve been in if i had entered. i think all would've been sorta right with the world if that'd happened lol.
 
Dorsey

Dorsey

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I don't feel the pr's should be used for seeding, although its what it's used for and I think the panel should do the seeding. The pr should be based off tournament placing and attendance. the reason my focus is on seeding, is because I was asked for specifics about it on a different thread and I'm jusr tying it all together

****ty seeding, like my example, is what makes placing a joke.

Nice gif josh. Really got the job done.

:phone:
 
B

Bl@ckChris

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so if our power ranking shouldn't be our top 10 seeds, then who should be?

why can't a power ranking just be a public indication of who our top 10 seeds are?
 
RaphaelRobo

RaphaelRobo

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How does seeding affect a tournament? I mean, I can understand how it makes a difference, but not a huge difference.
 
-ACE-

-ACE-

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Bl@ckChris said:
if seeding is based off of who v. who, and the pr's should be used for seeding, then...what's the problem again?
Click to expand...
He didn't say pr's should be used for seeding...

PR's should be based off tournament performance. Placing shows tournament performance. If you look at the PR's and say "wow, that doesn't look like a list of our top 10 players" that's good, because a PR is not a list of the 10 best players in the state; it is a list of players who perform the best in tournament. If you see the list and say, "it's sort of obvious that #8 is more skilled than #5" this sort of problem will be solve itself, unless the player ranked 8th continues to place worse than the player ranked 5th... and if that is the case, is that player really more skilled? The beauty of the system: the more accurate the seeding (panelists who are knowledgeable and fair determine this), the closer the PR (determined by placings/attendance) will be to a top 10 list of our most skilled players (which will eventually make seeding insanely easy). And as time goes on, there will be so much data that factoring in attendance becomes less complicated (not that it is to begin with), and rankings will become more solidified (in the sense that there won't be any ties and thus the data shows a sharper contrast between players ranked next to each other, not in the sense that it would be harder for newcomers to attain ranking... all they have to do is place well).

:phone:
 
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