The Nitpick Thread

[Farorae]

Fox's teeth because they look like paper and his voice, and Zelda's hair and shoulders always clipping with each other and other things as well.

 

[ChikoLad]

Oh okay if that's how we're playing the game then how is it even a question that a god can run faster than a fast hedgehog?

Because it's not just a fast hedgehog we're talking about.

It's SAAAAAAAnic.

 

[Ignoth]

I don't like the new "mirroring" effect on characters like Mario & Kirby. I'd rather the models be consistent across the board. There's nothing wrong with seeing a character's back.

When they decided to separate Sheik & Zelda, Sheik should have been swapped out for Impa.

I'm iffy on Palutena's inclusion. I loved KI:U, and I'm always supporting more female representation... but a part of me feels that a Goddess is too cool and regal to be scrapping with the lowly rabble.

A lot of the veteran's move-sets feel really dated now. I've played smash since 64, and I want to see characters like Mario updated to better reflect their current games.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

Why do both of their upper bodies and torsos have similar poses while both lean to their left?

This weirds me out on a soul-deep level.

 

[LeeYawshee]

Sonic's basic combo should be punch, kick, kick.

 

[CrossoverMan]

Why did Sakurai only bring back the Popants, the Roturrets and the Mites from the Subspace Emissary for Smash Run? Where are the Primids, the Roaders, etc? We could have finally had the chance to see what Mizzo, that enemy stuck in the background of the Halberd stage really was.

Some of the characters' artwork just looks awkward and uncharacteristic. The only ones that I really like are Pac-Man, Mega Man and Samus. Luigi and Sonic's are the worst, because they just look terrible and off.

The fact that Sakurai revealed Rayman as just a trophy before revealing any Ubisoft characters. It just seems like a very odd marketing choice.

The fact that Sonic's move set hasn't changed a bit.

The customisable moves. It just takes away what makes the characters unique. I can understand it for the Miis, but why does every other character have customisable moves?

That fake Nester character page made by Nintendo USA. Why would they **** with us like that? I actually wanted Nester in the game!

 

[MasterOfKnees]

The fact that Sonic's move set hasn't changed a bit.

That fake Nester character page made by Nintendo USA. Why would they **** with us like that? I actually wanted Nester in the game!

Sonic has a new Down-Smash... but yeah, that's about it.

Oh, and the Nester page wasn't made by Nintendo, it was made by some random goofball on 4chan iirc.

 

[ChikoLad]

I'm iffy on Palutena's inclusion. I loved KI:U, and I'm always supporting more female representation... but a part of me feels that a Goddess is too cool and regal to be scrapping with the lowly rabble.

Well first of all, the entire point of Palutena is that she looks like some graceful, higher being, and has the power of one, but really, she's just a feisty, dorky, immature girl in her personality. The sort of girl you'd see on Tumblr. She just spouts words of wisdom on occasion to remind you that she is a goddess.

Secondly, she's not the only one here:

 

[CrossoverMan]

Sonic has a new Down-Smash... but yeah, that's about it.

Oh, and the Nester page wasn't made by Nintendo, it was made by some random goofball on 4chan iirc.

But it was made on April fools day.

 

[Golden Gallade]

-Pikachu without Iron Tail.

Iron Tail is one of the worst moves to teach to pikachu. Let's get fake out, hidden power ice, grass knot, and substitute.

 

[SonicMario]

Luigi and Sonic's are the worst, because they just look terrible and off.

I actually really like Sonic's Smash 4 artwork. I actually like it more then his Brawl one. The smirk reminds of the Adventure game's artwork

Anyway, my nitpick on how a few of the newcomers feel more commercialized then they should be. I know Smash Bros. has always been kind of a promotion vehicle from the beginning. But most still had some degree of merit to them prior. The newcomers that feel they get the worst out of this is Rosalina and Greninja especially.

Rosalina while of course representing the success of Galaxy feels like there was just the right momentum (Even if course we know Rosalina was picked as far back as 2012) with the promotion to a playable character in Super Mario 3D World and being heavily focused on in the Spin-Off games even getting a baby form in Mario Kart 8 for some reason. Though technically my biggest nitpick with Rosalina was kinda how they kinda pissed all over the Toad fans with the pic of the day prior to her reveal. With the pic of Link about to shoot Toad with an arrow, kind of creating implications that Rosalina's reveal was the dagger to any chance of Toad making it into Smash. Now I'm not someone who really cares if Toad is in Smash or not. But I think any Toad fans that there are would have good reason to be angry and bitter about this. Even if say Toad ended up being playable anyway as DLC with Captain Toad. It just felt like a low blow.

But getting back to the commercialized Newcomers. Greninja is my least favorite newcomer revealed so far because of this. Because Greninja's debut game won't even be a year old when the 3DS version of Smash released. It's the closest the series has gotten to another Roy (AKA an inclusion where the character included wasn't even released yet when the Smash game they were playable in was). Even the other generation rep Pokemon, Pichu and Lucario. Had at least two years for us to get to know them prior to the release of the Smash game they were first in. And while it may just be that I've been out of the loop with Pokemon, but didn't Sakurai say that they looked for which pokemon were being promoted and also through the animated movies or even the show for which Pokemon they pick? If so, Greninja didn't even have much prior to Smash 4's release. Greninja does appear in the movie where Diancie is featured, but Greninja isn't as important as say Lucario was in Lucario and the Mystery of Mew & Pichu had the Pichu Bros. shorts cause Greninja is one of the Antagonist's pokemon in the movie. I don't quite understand why Greninja is playable other then Gamefreak just happened to choose it. I feel like even though new generation reps are inevitable for Pokemon representation, those even outside of the Pokemon side of things should be at least a little familiar with the character before their inclusion in Smash. New Pokemon included should be somewhat recognizable before their reveal so it's like "Oh yeah! That's *insert promoted pokemon*! I saw that Pokemon while watching the newest Pokemon movie with my Pokemon loving friends!". Every Pokemon included in the series that is not the trainer, Pikachu, and Jigglypuff (All 3 got in on their own merits whether through popularity or relevance to Pokemon as a whole and/or Smash Bros. itself) had this effect except for Greninja. And it bothers me a bit.

That said, these are just nitpicks because I don't hate Rosalina or Greninja that much.

 

[byperbam]

But it was made on April fools day.

why does that change the fact that it wasnt made my NOA?

 

[Veggi]

Iron Tail is one of the worst moves to teach to pikachu. Let's get fake out, hidden power ice, grass knot, and substitute.

I totally agree with Fake Out and Substitute. Hidden Power Ice and Grass Knot are only effective because of typing though.

Maybe Fake Out could be a move that is only useable every 20 seconds, but it grants him invincibility for 1 second or something. Substitute could give Pikachu super armor for 25% for attacks that hit Pikachu's front, but damages Pikachu for 25%. Translating weird Pokemon moves into Smash is hard.

I think they should double the hit stun on Pikachu's fair and call it Nuzzle.

 

[CrossoverMan]

The Nester joke was actually made by Nintendo USA.

 

[Superyoshiom]

Well first of all, the entire point of Palutena is that she looks like some graceful, higher being, and has the power of one, but really, she's just a feisty, dorky, immature girl in her personality. The sort of girl you'd see on Tumblr. She just spouts words of wisdom on occasion to remind you that she is a goddess.

Secondly, she's not the only one here:

Her final smash should have been her summoning a black hole, not any of that pansy power star stuff.

 

[ChikoLad]

With the pic of Link about to shoot Toad with an arrow, kind of creating implications that Rosalina's reveal was the dagger to any chance of Toad making it into Smash.

I think that's just some of the more obnoxious (read: not all) Toad fans looking for someone to pin the blame on. I honestly don't understand why he's a character that was considered likely at all after Peach was revealed to still use him as a shield.

Anyway, my nitpick on how a few of the newcomers feel more commercialized then they should be. I know Smash Bros. has always been kind of a promotion vehicle from the beginning. But most still had some degree of merit to them prior. The newcomers that feel they get the worst out of this is Rosalina and Greninja especially.

While I relate to your point in regards to Greninja (though I don't see that as a point against him), it absolutely does not apply to Rosalina, at all. She is one of the most, if not THE most, beloved Mario characters outside of the staple four (Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser), and Yoshi, and that's only become more obvious wit her recent appearances, including Smash. She's used to be what characters like Blaze, Silver, and Shadow are to the Sonic series right now - not being used a whole lot, but everyone wants to see them back. Rosalina just so happens to be making her well deserved return, and it seems like she's here to stay.

Even in the Iwata Asks for Super Mario 3D World, it was stated that Rosalina was chosen to be the fifth character because she's insanely popular and doubled as being an extra female to play as. You can't really argue a character's popularity when the key minds behind the Mario games right now, are saying she's really popular. And you can't argue that the sheer amount of attention Nintendo is trying to put on her is for a reason.

She was chosen for Smash 4 long ago, and was always popular enough to be in Smash 4. She's not very popular here on Smashboards because we're all macho men who love our retro icons and badass fighting animals as the entire Smash roster, but in general, Rosalina is way more popular than even I'm willing to admit or realise, on occasion. If popularity even in is a factor (which I don't believe it is), Rosalina gets an A+ grade on that test.

 

[Golden Gallade]

I totally agree with Fake Out and Substitute. Hidden Power Ice and Grass Knot are only effective because of typing though.

Maybe Fake Out could be a move that is only useable every 20 seconds, but it grants him invincibility for 1 second or something. Substitute could give Pikachu super armor for 25% for attacks that hit Pikachu's front, but damages Pikachu for 25%. Translating weird Pokemon moves into Smash is hard.

I think they should double the hit stun on Pikachu's fair and call it Nuzzle.

I was talking about the actual Pokemon games lul. You need STAB thunderbolt/thunder, fake out, hp ice/hp fire, and grass knot/sub.

I like your ideas, however!

 

[SonicMario]

I think that's just some of the more obnoxious (read: not all) Toad fans looking for someone to pin the blame on. I honestly don't understand why he's a character that was considered likely at all after Peach was revealed to still use him as a shield.

While I relate to your point in regards to Greninja (though I don't see that as a point against him), it absolutely does not apply to Rosalina, at all. She is one of the most, if not THE most, beloved Mario characters outside of the staple four (Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser), and Yoshi, and that's only become more obvious wit her recent appearances, including Smash. She's used to be what characters like Blaze, Silver, and Shadow are to the Sonic series right now - not being used a whole lot, but everyone wants to see them back. Rosalina just so happens to be making her well deserved return, and it seems like she's here to stay.

Even in the Iwata Asks for Super Mario 3D World, it was stated that Rosalina was chosen to be the fifth character because she's insanely popular and doubled as being an extra female to play as. You can't really argue a character's popularity when the key minds behind the Mario games right now, are saying she's really popular. And you can't argue that the sheer amount of attention Nintendo is trying to put on her is for a reason.

She was chosen for Smash 4 long ago, and was always popular enough to be in Smash 4. She's not very popular here on Smashboards because we're all macho men who love our retro icons and badass fighting animals as the entire Smash roster, but in general, Rosalina is way more popular than even I'm willing to admit or realise, on occasion. If popularity even in is a factor (which I don't believe it is), Rosalina gets an A+ grade on that test.

Just to clarify something, I do like Rosalina. I like her alot better then I do Peach to be perfectly honest. And even think her moveset idea was clever. And I do get it's not nearly as bad as Greninja's. It might just be the way Nintendo marketed it and all, Rosalina's reveal for Smash coming not too long after we just found about her playable appearence in Super Mario 3D World. I probably would of liked it better if we had a character reveal that wasn't a Mario character that day (Cause then the Toad pic wouldn't feel like it was implicating something) and have Rosalina revealed another day (Like say, somewhere around Mario Kart 8's release. Heck, her trailer even started on Rainbow Road after all).

As for Toad, I just think it should be quite frustrating at this point for Toad fans. Toad has the history (His debut game was Super Mario Bros., Bowser and Peach also debuted in the game and they've been playable since 2001 in the Smash series), he has the playable appearences (Older games: Super Mario Bros. 2, Wario's Woods, etc. Newer Games: New Super Mario Bros. series, Super Mario 3D World, Captain Toad, etc.), he has the moveset potential, and he has a decent popularity. Even though it's not a huge deal to me regarding Toad. I just feel like for alot of Toad fans, they're just left asking what does Toad have to exactly do to gain enough recognition for at least one incarnation of Toad (Whether it's the classic red toad, the blue toad, or Captain Toad) to get playable in Smash in some way. And to see a new character kinda potentially usurp that position who's only existed for 7 years over a character that is just as old as Peach and Bowser at this point. I just feel Toad objectively has the merit to be in Smash, but for one reason or another just hasn't been considered past being Peach's meat shield.

Again, I like Rosalina. I just feel most of my nitpicky gripes with Rosalina's inclusion would disappear if Toad in some way made it in as well. Then it feels like there'd be a little more perfect harmony in the Mario representation, cause Toad would be a classic character that completes the Super Mario Bros. cast, and Rosalina representing more recent endeavors like the really successful Super Mario Galaxy.

 

[ChikoLad]

Just to clarify something, I do like Rosalina. I like her alot better then I do Peach to be perfectly honest. And even think her moveset idea was clever. And I do get it's not nearly as bad as Greninja's. It might just be the way Nintendo marketed it and all, Rosalina's reveal for Smash coming not too long after we just found about her playable appearence in Super Mario 3D World. I probably would of liked it better if we had a character reveal that wasn't a Mario character that day (Cause then the Toad pic wouldn't feel like it was implicating something) and have Rosalina revealed another day (Like say, somewhere around Mario Kart 8's release. Heck, her trailer even started on Rainbow Road after all).

As for Toad, I just think it should be quite frustrating at this point for Toad fans. Toad has the history (His debut game was Super Mario Bros., Bowser and Peach also debuted in the game and they've been playable since 2001 in the Smash series), he has the playable appearences (Older games: Super Mario Bros. 2, Wario's Woods, etc. Newer Games: New Super Mario Bros. series, Super Mario 3D World, Captain Toad, etc.), he has the moveset potential, and he has a decent popularity. Even though it's not a huge deal to me regarding Toad. I just feel like for alot of Toad fans, they're just left asking what does Toad have to exactly do to gain enough recognition for at least one incarnation of Toad (Whether it's the classic red toad, the blue toad, or Captain Toad) to get playable in Smash in some way. And to see a new character kinda potentially usurp that position who's only existed for 7 years over a character that is just as old as Peach and Bowser at this point. I just feel Toad objectively has the merit to be in Smash, but for one reason or another just hasn't been considered past being Peach's meat shield.

Again, I like Rosalina. I just feel most of my nitpicky gripes with Rosalina's inclusion would disappear if Toad in some way made it in as well. Then it feels like there'd be a little more perfect harmony in the Mario representation, cause Toad would be a classic character that completes the Super Mario Bros. cast, and Rosalina representing more recent endeavors like the really successful Super Mario Galaxy.

The one thing about Toads that people seem to forget is that it is against their nature to fight. It would be out of character to make them fight, at all. That's why I think we'll never see a playable Toad.

Even outside of that, while Toad is well known and has seniority, those points have never meant crap, they are superficial things that speculators trick themselves into thinking they mean something, when they don't. Toads just aren't that beloved. Well liked, but, they're just this never-developing, race character, so not many people actually care about the character, while Rosalina was a standout character with agency who brought more to the series than Toad ever has. Heck, even more than Mario has, from a characterisation/storytelling standpoint. And while they've been playable, every single playable appearance they've made only depicts them doing things Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Rosalina already can do.

 

[Ignoth]

Well first of all, the entire point of Palutena is that she looks like some graceful, higher being, and has the power of one, but really, she's just a feisty, dorky, immature girl in her personality. The sort of girl you'd see on Tumblr. She just spouts words of wisdom on occasion to remind you that she is a goddess.

Secondly, she's not the only one here:

Yep, I definitely see that too (We could throw Mewtwo on that list too I think). For me, it's the minor-est of nitpicks. I love the inclusion of characters like Mewtwo, Palutena, and Rosalina. But at the same time, there's a tiny tiny part of me that thinks it's really weird seeing the likes of Palutena or Mewtwo being beaten up by a Jigglypuff.

I think it would have helped a bit if Palutena fought alongside Pit every now and then in KI:U. If we got a feel to how powerful she really was (not counting the weakened & mind-controlled Palutena in the Chaos Kin arc).
That way, the transition would be a tad smoother. Maybe that's my real nitpick, the jarring transition from "trolling goddess who lets her angel do the dirty work" to "full on fighter grappling with everyone else as equals".

Again though, it's one of my smallest nitpicks. Otherwise, I'm a total fan of her inclusion.

 

[Superyoshiom]

The one thing about Toads that people seem to forget is that it is against their nature to fight. It would be out of character to make them fight, at all. That's why I think we'll never see a playable Toad.

Peach
Villager
Wii Fit Trainer
R.O.B.

 

[CrossoverMan]

The one thing about Toads that people seem to forget is that it is against their nature to fight. It would be out of character to make them fight, at all. That's why I think we'll never see a playable Toad.

Even outside of that, while Toad is well known and has seniority, those points have never meant crap, they are superficial things that speculators trick themselves into thinking they mean something, when they don't. Toads just aren't that beloved. Well liked, but, they're just this never-developing, race character, so not many people actually care about the character, while Rosalina was a standout character with agency who brought more to the series than Toad ever has. Heck, even more than Mario has, from a characterisation/storytelling standpoint. And while they've been playable, every single playable appearance they've made only depicts them doing things Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Rosalina already can do.

Toad would be an immensely boring character to play as. I could imagine his moves being some kind of weird cross between. Mario' sand Peach's, but other than that, I don't see the appeal.

Some people think Captain Toad from Mario Galaxy has a slightly better chance because he's got his own game coming out, but that game looks like it was slapped together in a few hours before it was revealed at E3. I guess Captain Toad could appear in some way, as he is a funny character, but I have no idea how. Assist Trophy? Background character? *Shrugs shoulders*

 

[ChikoLad]

Peach
Villager
Wii Fit Trainer
R.O.B.

Have not fought before =/= against their nature. Also, Peach has fought, in the RPGs, and in Super Princess Peach.

Toads are consistently described as cowards. When Peach's castle is attacked or Bowser is threatening her, they hide behind her, despite being her guards.

It is out of character for Toad to willingly fight someone in fisticuffs, contradictory to what Toads are supposed to be. It isn't contradictory in the case of R.O.B, Wii Fit Trainer, and Villager, since they had no established stance on fighting.

Toad would be an immensely boring character to play as. I could imagine his moves being some kind of weird cross between. Mario' sand Peach's, but other than that, I don't see the appeal.

Some people think Captain Toad from Mario Galaxy has a slightly better chance because he's got his own game coming out, but that game looks like it was slapped together in a few hours before it was revealed at E3. I guess Captain Toad could appear in some way, as he is a funny character, but I have no idea how. Assist Trophy? Background character? *Shrugs shoulders*

It's not that coming up with something interesting for Toad to do is impossible, it's that coming up with something that doesn't contradict how Toads funciton is impossible, when it comes to making them a fighter.

I do wanna see Captain Toad as an Assist Trophy though.

 

[Veggi]

I was talking about the actual Pokemon games lul. You need STAB thunderbolt/thunder, fake out, hp ice/hp fire, and grass knot/sub.

I like your ideas, however!

I know. I'm just saying it wouldn't help him much to have those moves in Smash.

Have not fought before =/= against their nature. Also, Peach has fought, in the RPGs, and in Super Princess Peach.

Toads are consistently described as cowards. When Peach's castle is attacked or Bowser is threatening her, they hide behind her, despite being her guards.

It is out of character for Toad to willingly fight someone in fisticuffs, contradictory to what Toads are supposed to be. It isn't contradictory in the case of R.O.B, Wii Fit Trainer, and Villager, since they had no established stance on fighting.

But they're brave enough to kill anything that Mario can in Mario Bros. 2, the New Super Mario Bros. games, and Mario 3D World. Luigi is scared easily too, but he still destroys people just like Toads do. Playable Toads can defeat Bowser. Story and characterization has nothing to do with being a qualifier for Smash. Mario's character development to screen time ratio is the worst thing in the entire world, but he's the most deserving character in Smash by a long shot.

 

[SonicMario]

The one thing about Toads that people seem to forget is that it is against their nature to fight. It would be out of character to make them fight, at all. That's why I think we'll never see a playable Toad.

In a series where the Villager, ROB, Wii Fit Trainer, and other characters that aren't that well-known for fighting on foot in their games have all been playable. I don't understand why that is at all a problem.

Have not fought before =/= against their nature. Also, Peach has fought, in the RPGs, and in Super Princess Peach.

Toads are consistently described as cowards. When Peach's castle is attacked or Bowser is threatening her, they hide behind her, despite being her guards.

It is out of character for Toad to willingly fight someone in fisticuffs, contradictory to what Toads are supposed to be. It isn't contradictory in the case of R.O.B, Wii Fit Trainer, and Villager, since they had no established stance on fighting.

And I don't think being out-of-character is a big deal for Smash. When also in this series we have Ganondorf, Samus, Solid Snake, etc. wearing bunny hoods, whacking around a giant hammer, etc. Regardless of how normally scared Toad would be in a fight in their own franchise. It's not all that different from the more serious characters that would be more then willing to fight, doing the silly stuff that can happen in the Smash Bros. games. And besides, because Toad's been playable in the platformers. I think that counts that at least some of them are also willing to step into battle just as much as Mario, Luigi, or Peach was.

Even outside of that, while Toad is well known and has seniority, those points have never meant crap, they are superficial things that speculators trick themselves into thinking they mean something, when they don't. Toads just aren't that beloved. Well liked, but, they're just this never-developing, race character, so not many people actually care about the character, while Rosalina was a standout character with agency who brought more to the series than Toad ever has. Heck, even more than Mario has, from a characterisation/storytelling standpoint. And while they've been playable, every single playable appearance they've made only depicts them doing things Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Rosalina already can do.

The thing is, there's a reason Speculators talk about things like relevancy, seniority, popularity, etc. The Smash series for the most part have included characters based on some degree of merit. Some less then others for sure, but merit remains an important part of Smash inclusions. Cause without merit, we get terrible ideas for inclusion more commonly. And Smash Bros. rosters become as not important as the characters rosters like Mario Kart or Mario Party. In those series, while some people are still a little miffed on how say Donkey Kong hasn't been playable in the Mario Party series since the 4th Mario Party. Or how people get upset over straight-up clone models or babyfied characters like Pink Gold Peach and Baby Rosalina. Not many people really care because most of the characters are pretty well-balanced with eachother. Even if someone heavily dislikes Pink Gold Peach, her stats are the same as playing just another of the Heavyweights so there's really no need to have some huge beef over it. And while it is disappointing to see Donkey Kong not playable after he's been there since the very first Mario Party, there's no character difference in any of the Mario Parties for the exception of MP7 with the Character Orbs.

But in Smash, if a character is cut or a character gets in that's completely undeserving of their slot. It DOES mean something. Mewtwo's support for Smash 4 being as huge as it is just because of how many people missed him during Brawl. And Dr. Mario being pretty much the worst idea for a Smash inclusion for not only being a clone, but something that should be an alternate skin but for some reason was instead treated like a completely separate character from Mario. When all he was, was a slightly better Mario (As the competitive people found out) that just made you ask why they didn't just give those properties to Mario in the first place.

While I'm not saying Rosalina's inclusion is as bad as Mewtwo being cut, or Dr. Mario's inclusion. It just feels weird of having the possibility that while I do agree Rosalina is a decent choice for the 5th Mario character. The likely event that Rosalina is in and Toad is again is not playable is something that really won't matter once I'm playing the game. But when we are talking about character merit, Toad just objectively has more merit then Rosalina even from a neutral perspective. I want to clarify one last time that it doesn't matter that much if Toad is in or not to me and I also want to say that I do like Rosalina's inclusion just in case people think my little bit of a rant is making me sound that way, but I'm one that does lobby for those I do feel at least deserve the chance to be playable in Smash whether I'm a fan of the character or not. As being a part of a Smash Bros. roster feels like a reward for the many characters in Smash. And with any awards being sent out, there are those who snubbed when most know they should have gotten it even if the character that did get the award does have some reason to get it. They just feel like they don't have as much for them. Toad just feels like one of those who have been snubbed three times already.

(Also regarding things Toad has done that Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Rosalina do. That wouldn't stop Sakurai from exploring more into Toad's history to try to make him unique amongst the Mario cast. His size would make him much smaller, he'd be faster then all of them (That was the Blue Toad's unique trait in Super Mario 3D World), or heck Spores come out of Toad if you hit him when Peach has him out. More mushroom based traits can be given to Toad to provide something)

 

[ChikoLad]

And I don't think being out-of-character is a big deal for Smash. When also in this series we have Ganondorf, Samus, Solid Snake, etc. wearing bunny hoods, whacking around a giant hammer, etc.

I mean their moveset in a fight must actually represent that character. Not all of the little bells and whistles like items. You can't give a total coward a moveset without contradicting their personality. You cannot make them fight at all without contradicting their personality.

The thing is, there's a reason Speculators talk about things like relevancy, seniority, popularity

Because they think they know how Smash roster selection, but they don't. They fail to read certain interviews with Sakurai (where he states how roster selection works), and therefore, make up their own criteria for roster selection.

I'm not answering the rest of your post because it's simply trying to elaborate on a lost cause. Toad's seniority means nothing. At all, and Rosalina is more beloved than him anyway, so the popularity point is moot either way (popularity is not about how well known something is, it's about how dearly loved and praised they are. Toads are likeable and cute, but isn't seriously endearing or engaging).

Toad just feels like one of those who have been snubbed three times already.

You're telling me cowards who can't protect Peach deserve "awards"? OK.

Also, if I really need to emphasise Toad's being cowardly and docile - they are the freakin' main collectible item in Super Princess Peach. Yes, that's right, Toad's have never saved Peach in canon (NSMB doesn't count since when you play single-player, you automatically are relegated to Mario, meaning Luigi and the Toads don't have canon involvement in the adventure). Yet, Peach has saved over 100 Toads in individual locations.

 

[josh bones]

I mean their moveset in a fight must actually represent that character. Not all of the little bells and whistles like items. You can't give a total coward a moveset without contradicting their personality. You cannot make them fight at all without contradicting their personality.


I'm not answering the rest of your post because it's simply trying to elaborate on a lost cause. Toad's seniority means nothing. At all, and Rosalina is more beloved than him anyway, so the popularity point is moot either way (popularity is not about how well known something is, it's about how dearly loved and praised they are. Toads are likeable and cute, but isn't seriously endearing or engaging).
Bias much? Show me these rosalina polls, as the people I know think of her as space peach.

You're telling me cowards who can't protect Peach deserve "awards"? OK.
Mario 3d world no longer exists?


Also, if I really need to emphasise Toad's being cowardly and docile - they are the freakin' main collectible item in Super Princess Peach. Yes, that's right, Toad's have never saved Peach in canon (NSMB doesn't count since when you play single-player, you automatically are relegated to Mario, meaning Luigi and the Toads don't have canon involvement in the adventure). Yet, Peach has saved over 100 Toads in individual locations.
They do have canon involvement as they are in the opening cutscnene.

 

[KingIceSonic]

I find it annoying how Sakurai doesn't just deconfirm characters but he humiliates them and makes fun of their fanbase. Like Chrom, Waluigi, Toad, etc

Sakurai better not make fun of my Dixie Kong or else we gunna have problems

 

[SonicMario]

I mean their moveset in a fight must actually represent that character. Not all of the little bells and whistles like items. You can't give a total coward a moveset without contradicting their personality. You cannot make them fight at all without contradicting their personality.

Because they think they know how Smash roster selection, but they don't. They fail to read certain interviews with Sakurai (where he states how roster selection works), and therefore, make up their own criteria for roster selection.

I'm not answering the rest of your post because it's simply trying to elaborate on a lost cause. Toad's seniority means nothing. At all, and Rosalina is more beloved than him anyway, so the popularity point is moot either way (popularity is not about how well known something is, it's about how dearly loved and praised they are. Toads are likeable and cute, but isn't seriously endearing or engaging).

You're telling me cowards who can't protect Peach deserve "awards"? OK.

Also, if I really need to emphasise Toad's being cowardly and docile - they are the freakin' main collectible item in Super Princess Peach. Yes, that's right, Toad's have never saved Peach in canon (NSMB doesn't count since when you play single-player, you automatically are relegated to Mario, meaning Luigi and the Toads don't have canon involvement in the adventure). Yet, Peach has saved over 100 Toads in individual locations.

You're acting like I said that I'm extremely upset that Rosalina possibly got in over Toad. I am not. It's only a problem as far as a nitpick. If I was truly bothered that much I would of took it to the Unpopular Opinions board. I'm explaining why it's a nitpick for me. It's just kind of part of how I do kinda feel Toad is better suited for a Playable spot in the Mario roster regardless how much I like Rosalina's inclusion. And also why I sympathize for Toad fans out there.

 

[ChikoLad]

@ josh bones :

Luigi is not a coward. That's self explanatory. He has fought many times.
Villager had no set stance on fighting.
Palutena was a freakin' boss in Uprising.
Mega Man's nickname is literally "Super Fighting Robot".

Your point?

---------------------

Bias much? Show me these rosalina polls, as the people I know think of her as space peach.

No polls, but, from the Iwata Asks for 3D World:

Iwata
Oh! Rosalina?! Who insisted on that, I wonder?

Koizumi
Um, you probably think it was me! (laughs) But Motokura-san came to me and said he wanted to put her in.

Iwata
Motokura-san, why Rosalina?

Motokura
I was thinking about what would be pleasing after the ending and wanted to bring in another female character in addition to Princess Peach. Rosalina has a following among the Super Mario Galaxy fanbase, and she's appeared in Mario Kart recently, so I think she's well known.

As I said before, if the current people in charge of the Mario series think she "has a following" big enough to be made a playable character, then she must be popular.

Also, a lot of people were pretty peeved about Lubba accompanying Mario in Galaxy 2 instead of Rosalina.
Also, she's objectively the most used character in Mario Kart 8.

Mario 3d world no longer exists?

Toad doesn't protect Peach in that, you can play the entire game as Peach alone. And you don't really do much serious fighting in that game.

You're acting like I said that I'm extremely upset that Rosalina possibly got in over Toad. I am not. It's only a problem as far as a nitpick. If I was truly bothered that much I would of took it to the Unpopular Opinions board. I'm explaining why it's a nitpick for me. It's just kind of part of how I do kinda feel Toad is better suited for a Playable spot in the Mario roster regardless how much I like Rosalina's inclusion. And also why I sympathize for Toad fans out there.

It's not that, it's just you are making flimsy points and I am nitpicking that because this is the nitpick thread.

 

[josh bones]

@ ChikoLad
i is the definition of coward
Doesn't like to fight, so if you use canon stuff for whatever reason, makes less sense than toad.

 

[ChikoLad]

@ ChikoLad
i is the definition of coward
Doesn't like to fight, so if you use canon stuff for whatever reason, makes less sense than toad.

Luigi is not a coward. A coward is one who fears, but never steps up. Luigi ****s his pants at the sight of a lot of things, but he still swallows his fear and gets **** done.

And Mega Man may not typically like to fight but he does it anyway. Again, he steps up. He fights when he needs to.

 

[Veggi]

If 3D World doesn't count for some reason, then why do other Mario games count for other Mario characters? Toad accompanies Mario on some of his adventures and people don't say it's outside of Toad's personality because it's not. Scared people can do brave things if they decide to. The same reasoning you use for other characters being reasonable is reasoning that you're rejecting being used for Toad.

Luigi isn't cowardly because he goes on adventures with Mario, but it doesn't count when Toad does it? In Mario games he is depicted as a coward. It's the same thing with his wikia page.

Because Toads often need to be rescued, they can't fight? That's the same thing that happens to Peach.

Also, stop being rude and non-constructive by insulting his arguments. It's not like your self-contradicting arguments are any better.

 

[josh bones]

Luigi is not a coward. A coward is one who fears, but never steps up. Luigi ****s his pants at the sight of a lot of things, but he still swallows his fear and gets **** done.

And Mega Man may not typically like to fight but he does it anyway. Again, he steps up. He fights when he needs to.

doesnt like to fight, and only does it when einstein tries to attack, he was made to be a housekeeper

 

[ChikoLad]

If 3D World doesn't count for some reason, then why do other Mario games count for other Mario characters? Toad accompanies Mario on some of his adventures and people don't say it's outside of Toad's personality because it's not. Scared people can do brave things if they decide to. The same reasoning you use for other characters being reasonable is reasoning that you're rejecting being used for Toad.

Luigi isn't cowardly because he goes on adventures with Mario, but it doesn't count when Toad does it? In Mario games he is depicted as a coward. It's the same thing with his wikia page.

Because Toads often need to be rescued, they can't fight? That's the same thing that happens to Peach.

Also, stop being rude and non-constructive by insulting his arguments. It's not like your self-contradicting arguments are any better.

I didn't say 3D World doesn't count, I said NSMB doesn't. Because the game relegates you to playing as Mario in single-player, ergo, he's the only one canonically involved in things. 3D World lets you choose your hero based on who you like best.

And again, Toad has never flat out fought anyone. SMB2 is a dream, and he doesn't have to take any part in 3D World if you don't want him to, so it's not a solid basis for characterising him. You never have to see him besides the opening cutscene and ending credits, if you don't want to.

And I didn't insult anyone's argument, can I not throw a little pun-related joke in every once in a while when taking part in a tedious debate over whether or not a piece of walking fungus should be playable in Smash, and then throw a little troll face in to indicate said joke, to lighten things up?

doesnt like to fight, and only does it when einstein tries to attack, he was made to be a housekeeper

Oh wait, you're referring to that?

Rock (Mega Man before he was made to fight) volunteered to be outfitted to be a fighting robot. Dr. Light didn't want to do it, but Rock insisted. He's not against fighting if it is for justice.

 

[josh bones]

I didn't say 3D World doesn't count, I said NSMB doesn't. Because the game relegates you to playing as Mario in single-player, ergo, he's the only one canonically involved in things. 3D World lets you choose your hero based on who you like best.
Gameplay and Story segregation is at work there. The opening cutscene states that they are there, so they are there.
And again, Toad has never flat out fought anyone. SMB2 is a dream, and he doesn't have to take any part in 3D World if you don't want him to, so it's not a solid basis for characterising him. You never have to see him besides the opening cutscene and ending credits, if you don't want to.
I repeat, openng and ending cutscenes





Oh wait, you're referring to that?

Rock (Mega Man before he was made to fight) volunteered to be outfitted to be a fighting robot. Dr. Light didn't want to do it, but Rock insisted. He's not against fighting if it is for justice
Yes, for justice, not for sport like it is here. Megaman 8 comes in mind, where didn't want to go in that robot fighting tournament

 

[CrossoverMan]

Guys, this is getting quite repetitive. I'm sure if Toad wanted to fight, then he probably could, but I just don't think he has any real interesting move set potential. But then again, I never thought Pac Man would ever make a particularly interesting character, and look what Sakurai has done to him.

Also, someone here said Mega Man is another character who doesn't like fighting? That's obviously not true. In Marvel Vs Capcom, he clearly shows triumph and happiness in obliterating his opponents. Plus, Mega man is pretty much built for fighting.

 

[ChikoLad]

Gameplay and Story segregation is at work there. The opening cutscene states that they are there, so they are there.

No, you can interpret it anyway you want. There is nothing saying that Toad is objectively along for the whole adventure. The opening cutscene depicts them all going through the pipe, but at the end of it, only the selected characters exit. So if I want to, I can assume that Luigi is the only one who made it through and the rest got lost and were travelling through Clear Pipe Highway the entire time, and Luigi found them in the ending credits, because that's exactly what I see on screen.

Keep in mind that Nintendo doesn't want you to apply story context to this game. They didn't make this game to use it for characterisation. It's basically non-canon (since it had absolutely no consequence or developments. The game has a plot, but no story and little characterisation, meaning gameplay story segregation can't apply).

Yes, for justice, not for sport like it is here.

No, Smash 4 has no context. It's not automatically contextualised as a sport. It can't be, since that would present so many problems (Link willingly sparring with Ganondorf? lol no). It simply has no context, at all.

You can of course attach context yourself, but that requires you give each fight it's own context without making it contradictory. For example, for the bad guys, Mega Man could be fighting for justice. But when fighting good guys, maybe Mega Man is just sparring with them (since he's OK with fighting with friends in a friendly setting, for practice, since he does it with Protoman in Mega Man 7)? Or maybe he mistook them for bad guys for whatever reason?

 

[Flaxr XIII]

Toad was deconfirmed the second they showed off Peach's special. Why is this even a discussion? Toad's not happening and he never had a chance.

 

[ChikoLad]

Toad was deconfirmed the second they showed off Peach's special. Why is this even a discussion? Toad's not happening and he never had a chance.

This.

Basically all I ever wanted to say (as well as state that saying Rosalina didn't have merits was wrong).