The Nintendo "Off My Chest" thread (BE CIVIL)

[Quillion]

i don't think nintendo is the one who decided when IS and hal make new pullblox and boxboy

Good point. I was more referring to Nintendo EPD.

And even then, Nintendo's partners rarely ever make eShop games.

 

[Quillion]

Copying from the Unpopular Gaming Opinons thread:

Frankly, I really, really love TotK, but it feels like it didn't leave as much impact as the sequel to BotW should have.

I mean that it's better than BotW, but for being a sequel with a six-year gap, it seems to have came and went rather than made an impact.

On the topic of TotK's story:

The story is good IMO, just told awkwardly.

 

[Quillion]

Peach Showtime looks so unfocused so far. I'm really hoping that game doesn't resort to "gameplay roulette" out of a misguided sense to add variety to the game.

After seeing more of the game, I'm kinda wishing we just had a straight Super Peach sequel.

 

[Laniv]

It should have been Toad in Mario 64 DS instead of Wario

 

[Quillion]

I understand that Yoshi is an easy-mode character for Wonder, but what I think they should have done is not have him take damage, but have him run around uncontrollably when hit like in Mario World, NSMBW and NSMBU. That way, Yoshi is still easier, but isn't so redundant with Nabbit's signature mechanics.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Honestly I would have just taken Green Yoshi as a medium character that still had his flutter jump but could still take damage with the other color Yoshis being similar to Nabbit gameplay wise.

 

[Louie G.]

I've accepted the decision to make Yoshi easy mode, but I think there are a few adjustments that could have been made to give more options.

The badge system provides a very intuitive way to offer new gameplay experiences while keeping everybody streamlined. I feel like a good compromise would have been the inclusion of perhaps some sort of post-game badge that provides invincibility to any character, and when applied to Yoshi or Nabbit has them be able to instead take damage like a normal player. And then it just allows them to grab a mushroom for an extra health point or something.

When applying damage to Nabbit, it actually kind of makes him a "hard mode" character. Personally I like this angle for him - Yoshi even kinda makes him redundant anyway, so I'd have honestly advocated for them to make this the default option. A character who takes damage but cannot use powerups, and only runs and jumps... maybe he even dies in just one hit? I think it would have been good to have that one extra choice.

I get that this isn't the "lore" established in Luigi U but I think we can afford to take some liberties with Nabbit, he's not the most defined character yet.

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

I don’t mind Yoshi being an easy mode either, we have multiple non-easy mode characters so I don’t see why we can’t have multiple characters who take no damage. That said, an easy mode does sort of end up making most players not want to play as them so if I think if they must have something to make more people want to play as them, I would give Nabbit and Yoshi more abilities, maybe Yoshi can throw eggs or Nabbit can have extra jumps, and certain levels could have a Yoshi or Nabbit challenge for experienced players.

 

[UserKev]

I feel like Luigi hasn't been faithfully represented since the 90s. It's a gut feeling. Luigi is lazy and slightly anxious but he isn't overly cowardly and dramatic. Yet he's been made into the typical whimpy younger brother niche to fit qouta. I feel like the live action Super Mario Bros movie from the 90s is the accurate approach. How he actually was supposed to be. Somewhat lazy, more supportive and somewhat mysterious.

 

[Louie G.]

I feel like Luigi hasn't been faithfully represented since the 90s. It's a gut feeling. Luigi is lazy and slightly anxious but he isn't overly cowardly and dramatic.

Of course this thread is a safe space for whatever opinions so I don't wanna sound like I'm arguing about it, but Luigi was being played up as cowardly and dramatic since 1989 in the Super Show. Neither this or the movie should be judged by any canon standard mind you but that portrayal of Luigi is quite early.

However, three years earlier in 1986 is the Mario anime movie, Mission to Rescue Princess Peach, where Luigi is characterized a bit closer to what you described... but less green. I would wager they didn't really know who the characters were yet, but I found these takes on them charming. They portray Mario as feeling notably scrappier and younger than any of the following raspy voice Brooklynite angles, and certainly its own beast from Charles who essentially went on to redefine the character in every way.

So I'm not sure if I think Mario characters were properly "faithful" to anything until the late 90s, which is when they really got fully formed and figured out after several adaptations of, let's face it, games that don't really give that much to work with. But I do hold some of these interpretations near and dear.

 

[Quillion]

Despite Wonder's questionable handling of Yoshi, I'm really happy with how the game handled the characters that were there, and I hope the next 2D Mario games keep up the trend of having several playable characters and with the "swappable" abilities via badges.

The 2D games have a real niche of being the "bridge" between spin-off-only party gamers and platformer fans, and Mario should continue that.

 

[Perkilator]

In hindsight, I think the idea of a Kirby anime with a “monster of the week” format should’ve been saved for the timeframe during the release of Return to Dream Land on the Wii. At the very least, I think it would be a decent excuse to showcase not only the Super Abilities, but also the Robobot Armor if the anime continued up to Planet Robobot.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Mario Wonder has helped clarify a sense I've had about 2D Mario titles since 2006 and the nature of my own tastes.

I've realized that I tend to view the latter as (for lack of a better term) puzzle games. Basically there's secret exits, coins to find, and general hazards to avoid; all very well designed and fun to do... but once the proverbial puzzle has been solved (ie 100% the level) I simply don't have much incentive to really replay them. With many of the Mario titles including this most recent game, the fact that all the characters (Yoshis and the Nabbits easy mode nature aside) play pretty much the same also means there's not much variety there to motivate replays.

Its an interesting contrast to the likes of Sonic Superstars. Now I can say that Wonder is objectively a better game (better polish, more levels, fairer bosses) and yet I find myself liking it a bit more because the level design is such that I want to find alternate paths, want to see what the level is like with a Sonic vs an Amy, and see just how much I can speed through the stages when skilled enough.

And it’s not just Sonic either; I’ve gotten a similar sense of flow with the DKC series where the layouts of the levels can allow for a continued sense of momentum that just feels good. Moreover the Country games (especially the Retro ones) have a great bit of subtle world building where the settings (even stage to stage) tell a story that’s just engaging to experience again and again. Donkey Kong levels are never just platforms in the sky and that gives them such a unique allure.

Mario Wonder is fantastic and it’s sense of spectacle and outright weirdness is the injection of real creativity the 2D games have long needed. But at its heart it still is the series of straightforward gaming obstacle courses that (as good as they are) just don’t lend themselves to the same kind of long term play for me that other playformer franchises do.

 

[Quillion]

Mario Wonder has helped clarify a sense I've had about 2D Mario titles since 2006 and the nature of my own tastes.

I've realized that I tend to view the latter as (for lack of a better term) puzzle games. Basically there's secret exits, coins to find, and general hazards to avoid; all very well designed and fun to do... but once the proverbial puzzle has been solved (ie 100% the level) I simply don't have much incentive to really replay them. With many of the Mario titles including this most recent game, the fact that all the characters (Yoshis and the Nabbits easy mode nature aside) play pretty much the same also means there's not much variety there to motivate replays.

Its an interesting contrast to the likes of Sonic Superstars. Now I can say that Wonder is objectively a better game (better polish, more levels, fairer bosses) and yet I find myself liking it a bit more because the level design is such that I want to find alternate paths, want to see what the level is like with a Sonic vs an Amy, and see just how much I can speed through the stages when skilled enough.

And it’s not just Sonic either; I’ve gotten a similar sense of flow with the DKC series where the layouts of the levels can allow for a continued sense of momentum that just feels good. Moreover the Country games (especially the Retro ones) have a great bit of subtle world building where the settings (even stage to stage) tell a story that’s just engaging to experience again and again. Donkey Kong levels are never just platforms in the sky and that gives them such a unique allure.

Mario Wonder is fantastic and it’s sense of spectacle and outright weirdness is the injection of real creativity the 2D games have long needed. But at its heart it still is the series of straightforward gaming obstacle courses that (as good as they are) just don’t lend themselves to the same kind of long term play for me that other playformer franchises do.

Come to think of it, a speedrun mode as an update for Wonder wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

[Perkilator]

AlphaDream should have remade Partners in Time for the Switch as a remake that keeps the same core ideas but makes plenty of changes to fix the things people didn’t like as much about it.

 

[fogbadge]

AlphaDream should have remade Partners in Time for the Switch as a remake that keeps the same core ideas but makes plenty of changes to fix the things people didn’t like as much about it.

you mean instead of bowsers inside story?

 

[Quillion]

I hate to say this, but I don't think we should ignore this anymore:

Ganon(dorf) has never been a well-written character, just bland most of the time and wasted potential at best.

The closest he's ever come to being well-written was his pre-boss monologue in Wind Waker and his English-deleted "world without courage" motivation in Tears of the Kingdom... and they've done pretty much nothing with those angles.

Even among Nintendo villains, we've got Bowser being a good father, genuinely in love with Peach, and willing to save his kingdom when it is threatened; we have Mother Brain and her personal connection with Samus; we have Edelgard who feels the stagnant world has no choice but violent revolution; we have Amalthus and Malos who feel the world is beyond redemption.

Ganon has never had any real depth to him. They get somewhat close occasionally, but nothing ever comes of it. I guess part of it is that Ganon always ends up dead by the end of most games (or sealed), so they never have the chance to really build upon anything, but they could at least build more upon him for one game.

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

I think the general consensus is to consider Mario a spin-off of the “Donkey Kong series” but I just consider the Mario Bros games a sequel and Donkey Kong to be a mainline entry (admittedly the definition of “mainline” is fuzzy for basically every major game series) since you are playing as Mario, I don’t think the other Donkey Kong arcade games having different protagonists should change that. So as neat as the “spinoff becoming more popular than its predecessor” narrative is, I don’t think Mario is a spin-off.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I think the general consensus is to consider Mario a spin-off of the “Donkey Kong series” but I just consider the Mario Bros games a sequel and Donkey Kong to be a mainline entry (admittedly the definition of “mainline” is fuzzy for basically every major game series) since you are playing as Mario, I don’t think the other Donkey Kong arcade games having different protagonists should change that. So as neat as the “spinoff becoming more popular than its predecessor” narrative is, I don’t think Mario is a spin-off.

Even if you are to view Mario as a sequel to DK and not a spin-off, you can still say the whole "spinoff becomes more popular" thing applies to it through Mario Kart.

 

[Quillion]

I think the general consensus is to consider Mario a spin-off of the “Donkey Kong series” but I just consider the Mario Bros games a sequel and Donkey Kong to be a mainline entry (admittedly the definition of “mainline” is fuzzy for basically every major game series) since you are playing as Mario, I don’t think the other Donkey Kong arcade games having different protagonists should change that. So as neat as the “spinoff becoming more popular than its predecessor” narrative is, I don’t think Mario is a spin-off.

Personally, I just consider the DK arcade games, Mario Bros., Wrecking Crew, etc. to be the "proto-Mario" games while the actual main series started with SMB1.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

It's not too controversial to say that lot of the longstanding Nintendo fandom pipe dreams don't really hold up well to scrutiny, but one that's recently become more of a sour point for people that I actually think holds up is a Mario and Sonic platformer crossover. I think the gameplay could take cues from Sonic Generations, make Sonic levels themed on Mario's world and vice versa, don't try to force Sonic into Mario level design; it'd be a good opportunity to make a Mario game with a nostalgiabait level selection without it feeling forced or like it's taking away from original ideas, since that's something a lot of people have wanted (see: the "Sarasaland confirmed?" videos every time a new Mario anything comes out); big-band jazzy versions of Sonic music and Mario buttrock (or Tee Lopes funk if they go classic - he has done some Mario songs already, but all of them are pretty faithful to the originals) is a really obviously awesome idea; and I think the two characters have a really funny potential "goofy dad and embarassed teenager" dynamic.

 

[Quillion]

It's not too controversial to say that lot of the longstanding Nintendo fandom pipe dreams don't really hold up well to scrutiny, but one that's recently become more of a sour point for people that I actually think holds up is a Mario and Sonic platformer crossover. I think the gameplay could take cues from Sonic Generations, make Sonic levels themed on Mario's world and vice versa, don't try to force Sonic into Mario level design; it'd be a good opportunity to make a Mario game with a nostalgiabait level selection without it feeling forced or like it's taking away from original ideas, since that's something a lot of people have wanted (see: the "Sarasaland confirmed?" videos every time a new Mario anything comes out); big-band jazzy versions of Sonic music and Mario buttrock (or Tee Lopes funk if they go classic - he has done some Mario songs already, but all of them are pretty faithful to the originals) is a really obviously awesome idea; and I think the two characters have a really funny potential "goofy dad and embarassed teenager" dynamic.

The main problem with a Mario and Sonic platformer is that Mario successfully ping-pongs between exploration-based and linear a lot, while Sonic stays linear. Even Frontiers is driven by the idea of finding linear challenges in an open zone.

I know it's easy enough to make Mario levels with ramps and stuff while you have Sonic levels with more precise platforming, but Mario's greater versatility in level design makes this idea difficult. Plus there's the issue that Mario goes for a bunch of different levels with one path and a few secrets at most while Sonic goes for only a few levels full of alternate paths.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I've mentioned before how 1998 was a critical year as to when the most highlighted Nintendo franchises changed (at least in the West) with the shift going from Mario, Yoshi, & the Kongs to Mario, Pokémon, & Legend of Zelda. While the merits of the latter two obviously played a part, the more I've thought about the context of the time period, the more it makes sense.

The Game Boy Pocket had become a big hit in 1996 (especially in Japan) and that process was greatly helped by the emergence of Pokémon which took eventually became huge all around the world. However, the obvious contemporaneous fact I've only now just connected is that Nintendo's home console business was struggling with the N64. While its US numbers were actually quite strong (not that much of a total sales dip from the SNES) it struggled in Europe and performed awfully in Japan. That latter region was where Nintendo lost so much market to Sony (and even Sega with the Saturn), but there was never any company that managed to rival its share of the handheld business anywhere, even with noble efforts like the Neo Geo Pocket & the Wonderswan.

Beyond Pokémon's ridiculous merchandising empire, it was the pillar of the era of Game Boy becoming a revitalized console and making it such a strong focus was likely a necessity in the lean years of both the N64 and Gamecube. Whether it was the Game Boy, Color, or Advance, it was a franchise that could greatly elevate the section of Nintendo that was consistently doing well, and especially back home, it was something that needed to both maintained and branched out for the sake of the handheld line if nothing else.

With LoZ, it was the context of the Western market where it was most critical. I've said in the past that Crash was Sony's Mario (albeit not a franchise they technically owned) and that Final Fantasy (starting with VII) was their Zelda; the solidly performing IP that shot in the stratosphere in the 5th gen. In that same sense, I think the release of Ocarina of Time not only brought the IP back from hibernation, but it effectively was also evolved into the epic fantasy franchise that helped broaden Nintendo's public identity beyond just the kid friendly series they were so known for.

Not to say that LoZ was inherently for older players or that it couldn't harken back to its 2D aesthetics, just that it could go places that various other Nintendo franchises could not. With something like Fire Emblem still not quite big in the West yet, and years before the creation of something like a Xenoblade a release like Majora's Mask is something that could have been done by Zelda. In an era where the company was negatively affected by its kiddy image, it had a series in its back pocket that could be relied upon for event titles with appeal to older fans (with even cell shaded work like Wind Waker still having a scope that other games didn't).

Moreover, because it already had the aforementioned 2D games in its foundation, portable releases based on that model could still be released, both profiting on the consistently stronger sales of the Game Boy line, and still keeping Zelda relevant in regions like Japan where it was less popular with its home console releases. A LoZ could thus release a Majora's Mask and an Oracle duology in back-to-back years with both being successes in their own way. As good as Yoshi and Donkey Kong were (and one could argue that there was an opportunity to branch out with both that went wasted), Zelda had a range that allowed the games to wear many hats and still be fairly strong regardless.

Essentially, both Pokémon and LoZ were incredibly critical to the company because of how the video game marketplace (and Nintendo's place in it) had changed, and their status in the two most significant regions during such a shaky period made them invaluable as a result.

 

[Perkilator]

Seeing as the Switch can handle Unreal Engine 4, part of me wishes Nintendo utilized it more with their 1st-party titles.

 

[Quillion]

Seeing as the Switch can handle Unreal Engine 4, part of me wishes Nintendo utilized it more with their 1st-party titles.

Considering Nintendo is very control-freak and insular, perhaps it would be better for their culture to make their own engine for internal use.

 

[Quillion]

• I think Rex's English voice in Xenoblade 2 is "accidentally good", or at least feels real by accident. Somehow, the lack of voice direction and Al Weaver's performance helps sell the fact that Rex is a dorky rando who gets unwittingly roped into a world-destroying plot. Even the fact that the voices kinda improve as the game goes on helps sell how Rex develops self-esteem as being an Aegis Driver.
• Alear is by far the most likeable protagonist in the Awakening-on era of Fire Emblem, and I actively want them in Smash on that alone. Corrin may have sucked and Byleth was bland, but Alear actually feels great as a character.

 

[Quillion]

They missed an opportunity to call 2023-2024 the Year of Peach. Not only is it SMB1's 40th anniversary, but Peach has so many (co-)starring roles in Wonder, RPG Remake, and Showtime.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

They missed an opportunity to call 2023-2024 the Year of Peach. Not only is it SMB1's 40th anniversary, but Peach has so many (co-)starring roles in Wonder, RPG Remake, and Showtime.

Not really a missed opportunity so to speak, at least not on the corporate side

“Year Of Luigi” generates $456 million loss for Nintendo

“Year Of Luigi” generates $456 million loss for Nintendo

www.avclub.com

 

[Quillion]

Not really a missed opportunity so to speak, at least not on the corporate side

“Year Of Luigi” generates $456 million loss for Nintendo

“Year Of Luigi” generates $456 million loss for Nintendo

www.avclub.com

That was during the Wii U era. Doing it during the Switch era would work a lot better.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

With all the various developers that Nintendo have had handle Star Fox over the years, I think the one they should have really let have an attempt was Sega. That's a company with a long history of shoot em ups, did an excellent series of rail shooters with Panzer Dragoon, were incredibly skilled at home games with an arcade like focus, and made their line of titles with anthropomorphic animal mascot characters one of the most famous IP's in the world with Sonic. If anyone could effectively make a sequel/spin-off to Star Fox that did justice to its best ideas, its them.

 

[Deleted member]

I never got the hype for Kid Icarus Uprising, ngl.

The humour doesn't seem to be of my taste and the story doesn't feel so special from what I've seen.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I mentioned in my last post that Sega developing Star Fox had some potential and there are loads of semi-neglected Nintendo franchises that could definitely use some new teams to work on it.

But in some ways, I think the inverse could be true too. While unlikely, seeing Nintendo EPD work on certain non-Nintendo IP's would be damned interesting to see. Those core teams did some wonderful work on the SNES version of Sim City and with Tetris DS way back when and having that sort of approach on a lot of modern series could breathe some new life into them in their own way.

 

[Diddy Kong]

A true Zelda RPG is such a huge potential for Nintendo that it's weird they haven't tried to make one yet. Or a Zelda game with the set up of a Fire Emblem game, by Intelligent Systems and Nintendo. It basically writes it's own, and again is weird it hasn't happened yet. Also a sort of shared game between the Mario extended universes as Mario, DK, Yoshi and Wario. Nintendo shouldn't be so conservative when it comes to these spin offs that basically write their own.

 

[Quillion]

I never got the hype for Kid Icarus Uprising, ngl.

The humour doesn't seem to be of my taste and the story doesn't feel so special from what I've seen.

A lot of it may have to be that Nintendo IPs with actual voice acting and character is a novelty in that context, just not in the greater industry.

I mentioned in my last post that Sega developing Star Fox had some potential and there are loads of semi-neglected Nintendo franchises that could definitely use some new teams to work on it.

But in some ways, I think the inverse could be true too. While unlikely, seeing Nintendo EPD work on certain non-Nintendo IP's would be damned interesting to see. Those core teams did some wonderful work on the SNES version of Sim City and with Tetris DS way back when and having that sort of approach on a lot of modern series could breathe some new life into them in their own way.

Agreed, they need to work with outside IP again. There's just the whole hatred of third-party exclusives nowadays that prevents that though.

A true Zelda RPG is such a huge potential for Nintendo that it's weird they haven't tried to make one yet. Or a Zelda game with the set up of a Fire Emblem game, by Intelligent Systems and Nintendo. It basically writes it's own, and again is weird it hasn't happened yet. Also a sort of shared game between the Mario extended universes as Mario, DK, Yoshi and Wario. Nintendo shouldn't be so conservative when it comes to these spin offs that basically write their own.

Yeah, if Final Fantasy can get a Mario-level volume of spin-offs, so can Zelda.

Aonuma must not like spin-offs for whatever reason.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I saw a comment elsewhere that I think sums up the weird place Donkey Kong is within the core Nintendo model and it's that they always prioritize DK the character... but not really as much the franchise itself. It's such a staggeringly simple idea, but it makes a lot of sense and arguably explains so much of the franchise's history in the last 25 plus years.

DK himself was always around in some fashion and appearances in so many of the Mario spin-offs indicated just how critical he was seen as including in things like Mario Kart and Smash. The Mario vs DK titles had consistent entries, the original arcade game is often highlighted/referenced, even in things like advertising and marketing he's pretty well represented.

It's just that so much of DK's world outside the context of relating to Mario has so often fallen by the wayside because its seemingly not viewed as critical/important to keep as relevant. Diddy managed to pop up in various titles because every Mario/Sonic needs their Luigi/Tails, though even hardly guaranteed consistent appearances> He had 15 years between mainline Mario Kart appearances (and literally got in the last possible DLC of the 8 Deluxe to boot). Dixie Kong's never managed to get any non DKC playable appearances barring Tour (which basically included everyone Mario adjacent under the sun).

The 2000's period might be most illustrative of this. How could Konga and Jungle Beat be the big output of the series with both having few elements from the actual games that were most successful for the brand? Because they had DK in them and that seemed to be enough. The series was basically a springboard to try things at that point and to be fair the reticence by certain development teams to not include elements from the Rare games because they personally didn't create them is understandable. It's just that them being so far removed from even the spirit of the 90s titles in many respects suggests that sort of tonal consistency was simply not really a high priority when it came to the series.

Fascinating to note also is that Western teams seemed to be relied upon for the mainline titles typically expected (and often do) sell best: Rare for the GBA remakes, Retro for DKC Returns & Tropical Freeze, even little studios like Monster Games for re-releases like the Returns 3DS port. Part of that is likely that was simply easier utilizing them for it then various internal teams or an Eastern third party, though the Nintendo EAD release (Jungle Beat) being one that feels almost the most removed from the other mainline games could be suggestive of where NoJ's specific interest in the franchise was. Also, notable that it was a NoA executive specifically in Reggie Fils-Aimé who objected to Donkey Konga & believed it would hurt the brand. It's an objection that could be just indicative of some differing regional views on what the franchise should be.

Finally, I think the last 10 years bear this out to a degree too. No new Donkey Kong games of any type (with even the recent Mario vs DK being a well-done remake) and the biggest highlights being a Switch port of Tropical Freeze, the DK extended cast in the Mario movie, and K Rool in Smash. It all makes a certain sense with the aforementioned focus though. DK himself has not gone anywhere, and the Kongs simply stand out as easier for potential movie spin-offs to Universal than the casts of the Yoshi or Wario subseries do. K Rool getting into Smash thanks to a ballot because fans viewed him as more worthy of Smash than many higher up in Nintendo seemed to really tells the whole story about where certain priorities with the IP really were/are.

Could this change? Possibly. The big push at Super Nintendo World has put characters beyond DK himself in the marketing and there is something prudent in actually making the franchise more of a living and breathing one beyond just featuring Donkey Kong specifically in spin-offs and calling it a day. Time will tell and it remains to be seen if the approach to the franchise will really change.

 

[Quillion]

I saw a comment elsewhere that I think sums up the weird place Donkey Kong is within the core Nintendo model and it's that they always prioritize DK the character... but not really as much the franchise itself. It's such a staggeringly simple idea, but it makes a lot of sense and arguably explains so much of the franchise's history in the last 25 plus years.

DK himself was always around in some fashion and appearances in so many of the Mario spin-offs indicated just how critical he was seen as including in things like Mario Kart and Smash. The Mario vs DK titles had consistent entries, the original arcade game is often highlighted/referenced, even in things like advertising and marketing he's pretty well represented.

It's just that so much of DK's world outside the context of relating to Mario has so often fallen by the wayside because its seemingly not viewed as critical/important to keep as relevant. Diddy managed to pop up in various titles because every Mario/Sonic needs their Luigi/Tails, though even hardly guaranteed consistent appearances> He had 15 years between mainline Mario Kart appearances (and literally got in the last possible DLC of the 8 Deluxe to boot). Dixie Kong's never managed to get any non DKC playable appearances barring Tour (which basically included everyone Mario adjacent under the sun).

The 2000's period might be most illustrative of this. How could Konga and Jungle Beat be the big output of the series with both having few elements from the actual games that were most successful for the brand? Because they had DK in them and that seemed to be enough. The series was basically a springboard to try things at that point and to be fair the reticence by certain development teams to not include elements from the Rare games because they personally didn't create them is understandable. It's just that them being so far removed from even the spirit of the 90s titles in many respects suggests that sort of tonal consistency was simply not really a high priority when it came to the series.

Fascinating to note also is that Western teams seemed to be relied upon for the mainline titles typically expected (and often do) sell best: Rare for the GBA remakes, Retro for DKC Returns & Tropical Freeze, even little studios like Monster Games for re-releases like the Returns 3DS port. Part of that is likely that was simply easier utilizing them for it then various internal teams or an Eastern third party, though the Nintendo EAD release (Jungle Beat) being one that feels almost the most removed from the other mainline games could be suggestive of where NoJ's specific interest in the franchise was. Also, notable that it was a NoA executive specifically in Reggie Fils-Aimé who objected to Donkey Konga & believed it would hurt the brand. It's an objection that could be just indicative of some differing regional views on what the franchise should be.

Finally, I think the last 10 years bear this out to a degree too. No new Donkey Kong games of any type (with even the recent Mario vs DK being a well-done remake) and the biggest highlights being a Switch port of Tropical Freeze, the DK extended cast in the Mario movie, and K Rool in Smash. It all makes a certain sense with the aforementioned focus though. DK himself has not gone anywhere, and the Kongs simply stand out as easier for potential movie spin-offs to Universal than the casts of the Yoshi or Wario subseries do. K Rool getting into Smash thanks to a ballot because fans viewed him as more worthy of Smash than many higher up in Nintendo seemed to really tells the whole story about where certain priorities with the IP really were/are.

Could this change? Possibly. The big push at Super Nintendo World has put characters beyond DK himself in the marketing and there is something prudent in actually making the franchise more of a living and breathing one beyond just featuring Donkey Kong specifically in spin-offs and calling it a day. Time will tell and it remains to be seen if the approach to the franchise will really change.

Funnily enough, that sounds like a less extreme version of how Wario is treated nowadays. Like DK, Wario is a critical part of the Mario franchise with all his spinoff appearances, but the fact that Wario is just a face in the crowd in these sports/party game spin-offs and doesn't even have a proper adventure where he tussles with Mario (unlike MvDK) is even more damning.

While at least the WarioWare series is alive and well, it's safe to say that series coasts so much on being a low-budget production that it's likely a better ROI than a Wario platformer despite Wario Land still eclipsing Ware in sales. Yet they still refuse to integrate any Wario element in the extended Mario franchise, probably due to tonal clash and/or lack of relevance.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Funnily enough, that sounds like a less extreme version of how Wario is treated nowadays. Like DK, Wario is a critical part of the Mario franchise with all his spinoff appearances, but the fact that Wario is just a face in the crowd in these sports/party game spin-offs and doesn't even have a proper adventure where he tussles with Mario (unlike MvDK) is even more damning.

While at least the WarioWare series is alive and well, it's safe to say that series coasts so much on being a low-budget production that it's likely a better ROI than a Wario platformer despite Wario Land still eclipsing Ware in sales. Yet they still refuse to integrate any Wario element in the extended Mario franchise, probably due to tonal clash and/or lack of relevance.

It does feel like Wario Land was an extended experiment/showcase for game development on their handhelds that eventually stopped being of interest when Wario Ware sold well vs its cost and other plaformer series gained greater attention. It likely didn't help that it's not clear what easy niche it fills within its genre unlike the others (Yoshi for younger/inexperienced gamers, Mario for mass audiences, DKC as the harder line for more hardcore fans). "Wario with his wacky minigames" might simply be an easier sell than "Wario with his out there, pseudo-exploration platformer titles" is.

 

[Quillion]

It does feel like Wario Land was an extended experiment/showcase for game development on their handhelds that eventually stopped being of interest when Wario Ware sold well vs its cost and other plaformer series gained greater attention. It likely didn't help that it's not clear what easy niche it fills within its genre unlike the others (Yoshi for younger/inexperienced gamers, Mario for mass audiences, DKC as the harder line for more hardcore fans). "Wario with his wacky minigames" might simply be an easier sell than "Wario with his out there, pseudo-exploration platformer titles" is.

You think that maybe part of the issue with DK is that its ROI may not be as great as it appears? The interim between Rare and Retro had so many spin-offs, but they may have put those out due to being relatively low-risk, high-return investments.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

You think that maybe part of the issue with DK is that its ROI may not be as great as it appears? The interim between Rare and Retro had so many spin-offs, but they may have put those out due to being relatively low-risk, high-return investments.

It could simply be a case of the potential ROI for mainline DK titles was simply seen as too risky unless it's in the exact right hands. With platformers not being perceived as the big system sellers as much in the 6th gen, no mainline Kirby, Yoshi, or Wario on Gamecube, and even mainline Mario going into relative hiatus between Mario 64 and NSMB aside from Sunshine, the decision may have been to keep costs down even with DK via spin-offs and ports until they had a studio/game they trusted to be profitable.

In that sense Jungle Beat may have had a twofold purpose; test the waters to see what the response would be to a different style Donkey Kong title and let their internal teams cut their teeth on a lower cost game before they moved onto to bigger projects. Even though Jungle Beat didn't really do big numbers, the GC release and Wii port together likely made some profit, gave Nintendo the feedback date about how a potential new direction for series would be perceived (lukewarm in this case), and maybe most importantly to Nintendo allowed the EAD team to create ideas that would later be refined for the truly significant games like Mario Galaxy later.

 

[Quillion]

So not too long ago, there was quite a bit of discourse about fanservice in JRPGs, particularly of the swimsuit flavor, centered around Final Fantasy VII Rebirth and Xenoblade Chronicles 2. (Example 1, Example 2)

As for my take... I'm just happy that Xenoblade Chronicles 2 has grown in profile enough to be openly compared with something as prestigious and anticipated as the FF7 remake series.