The Next Step for a Competitive Ness - NOW DISCUSSING: PK Thunder Tips & Tricks

[CanadaKid91]

Hello Ness players, CanadaKid91 here :D


This thread is dedicated to playing Brawl competively with Ness.
Specifically, I hope that we can address:

-> Ness's strengths and how to take advantage of them
-> Ness's weaknesses and how to overcome them/reduce their effectiveness
-> Effective Ness Strategies/Attack Chains


Before you write me off as a scrub due to my post count I ask that you give this some serious thought.
Afterall, my main goal with this thread centers around Ness's weaknesses, as I have not yet found a topic posted about his shortcomings.


And so I propose that all Ness players come together and discuss ways to improve the Ness metagame.
This thread is intended to be an open but serious discussion thread.


I would like first to acknowledge Ness's weaknesses so that we can move past a state of denial and into adaptation.


(For example, it is generally accepted that Ness's PK Thunder recovery is not good.
Before you begin to flame me I ask you to realize that Ness is not often required to make use of PK Thunder to recover, due to his great second jump, and air control. Furthermore, if you control your "knocked-away trajectory" (wrong words, but I hope you get the message) to be high, Ness is able to reach the stage, without much risk. Therefore, the weakness of Ness's PK Thunder recovery can be overcome through adaptation.)


It is my firm belief that Ness's other weaknesses can also be overcome or reduced through clever adaptation.


(This was originally posted on the All is Brawl Forums. Link: http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=49877 )


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WEAKNESSES

WEAKNESS #1 - GRAB-RELEASE COMBOS

How can Ness users overcome Grab-Release problems?
With EIDI, Ness is no longer suceptible to continual grabs from Marth.
(see link: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201575 , hope its okay for me to link this Ref)

However, Ness is still vunerable to several attacks out of a grab-release animation. In the case of Marth, a tipper DSmash is so far unavoidable.


SOLUTION
Grab-release attacks are unavoidable, and can even lead to a lost stock.

Therefore, the best defense against Grab-Release combos must be proactive! In short, don't get grabbed!
While this may sound like a simple cop-out instead of a practical solution, it is actually worthy of mention.
Afterall, how else will you deal with a decent Ice Climbers?

We must develop strategies to avoid being grabbed often! I personally find that when I am grabbed, it is merely due to a spacing error on my one of my aerials. To avoid being grabbed, I retreat as I am descending from a jump, using Ness's air mobility. I also find that the UpSmash and N-Air attacks are effective against would-be dash grabbers.



Solution 1 - LEARN A SECONDARY CHARACTER (thanks Masky!)

"Solution to the grab-release problems? Learn a secondary character

But as for not getting grabbed, Ness can be played a lot like Wario against a lot of characters (imo he can out-Wario Wario). My advice is to play a good Wario and learn how they play, then try to adapt those strategies to Ness. Kinda hard to explain." (Masky)



Solution 2 - AVOIDING GRABS/ MANIPULATING RELEASE? (thanks Uffe!)

"The only way to not get grabbed is to spot dodge. That's what it was made for." (Uffe)

"Anyway, to avoid getting grabbed, if you plan on using your fair, be sure to retreat or do it high enough. Get your opponent in the air and the can't grab you, no doubt." (Uffe)

"As for grab releases, if there are ways to control what direction you're going to go, then that could possibly be helpful. We'll take Bowser for example. With his grab release, I believe Ness can either move backwards or move in a diagonal direction in the air.

If you're able to manipulate this, then the opponent will have to predict what you're going to do. Because if you are grab released by Bowser and you move backwards, he can use his Flamethrower, d-tilt or some other attack like his Bowser Bomb. Another example is Captain Falcon. I'm not sure if he really has a grab release on Ness, though. However I was fighting someone who used Captain Falcon and they tried to do a grab release or something, because whenever I flew in a diagonal direction in the air, he was going to attempt some sort of attack. However, for some reason, I kept countering his attack with Ness' fair. But like I said, I'm not sure if Falcon has a grab release on Ness.

At low percent you should have no problem escaping a grab. It's a higher percent that makes it tough. " (Uffe)


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DISCUSSION - Post your PK Thunder ideas today!

 

[Earthbound Zero]

I like this thread, a good idea. :D The weakness I want to hear us "overcome" first are the grab-release into (insert a move here.) I can't stand Marth's and DK's Grab release to Dsmash.

 

[xoxokev]

I don't really think there's much we can do about the grab-release to dsmash, except... don't get grabbed? Haha, seriously, I think the only known options are EIDI, or that Super Grab Break thing that I've heard of...

Well... there is one thing that I've noticed. Sometimes when I play against a CPU and I grab them, they instantly break out of it (idk if that's what the SGB does, but yeah let me explain more). It's as if, right when I grab them, they just jump out of it... and they aren't grabbed at all, like... I can't pummel or throw, they just escape. A few times, my friend has been able to do it against my grabs, but he doesn't know what buttons he was pressing. I've done it once against the CPU, and I'm pretty sure I pressed shield at the same exact time I was grabbed. But when I tried to repeat that process against a friend, it didn't work... Maybe there is a very precise frame window it will only work on (which might be why the CPU can do it so frequently). Has anyone experienced this before?

On another note... I hate that Ness doesn't have any really fast smash attacks... (not as fast as MK's broken dsmash, but something more like Falco's dsmash). Sometimes the yo-yo just doesn't cut it

 

[Earthbound Zero]

Ness should have his 64 Dsmash. xD

Also, did the instant-grab release happen at a low percent? I know it's much harder to escape grabs at a high percent, and maybe a certain way of DIing out of the of grab causes you to almost instantly released.

And EIDI doesn't fix the grab release to Dsmash if the opponent forces a ground-break. ):

 

[xoxokev]

I don't remember what the % was, but next time it happens, I'll make sure to check it out

EDIT: Ness should have his dair from 64

 

[PK-ow!]

Weakness the first:

Run speed. The guy is slower than Lucas (makes no sense to me). You get someone in a good position off stage, but you just can't chase fast enough. So it really affects your positioning over time.

Weakness the second:

#$&% PK Thunder recovery. Why you gotta be so **** hard? It really limits your use of second jump, and prevents offstage insanity (with our spike though, we'd be broken with a reliable third jump. >:D )


Strengths:

?

You know I've never characterized his advantages before. The question becomes 'what is it that Ness does that no one else is doing?' If you're using a character, it's because you believe in something the character does, and you think you can make that matter enough, more than anyone else's strengths, to win.

With Ness I'm sure it's his aerials. But there's something in his ftilt and yoyos, too. And of course grab.

 

[Da Man]

Ness has the best spike in the game, easy to time and can really mess up a recovery attempt. Plus it has good knockback even if it doesn't spike.

 

[CanadaKid91]

Thank you to all who posted. To help keep our discussion focused, I have decided to limit the discussion for this week to overcoming the grab-release issue. Please only post anti-grab release strategies for now. Update in first post.

EDIT: Come on Ness mains, lets get some good discussion going!

xoxokev: I've looked into that Super Grab Break before and I haven't seen anything reliable come of it. It seems to have more to do with being grabbed near an edge. Until any further developments arise, I think we should look for alternate solutions to grab-release problems.

 

[paper otavio]

Ness has the best throw in the game.(Back throw)
Ness' PKT2 kill's at very low percentages like 40% but is hard to be unpredictable.

 

[paper otavio]

How do you do that DI from the grab?
Is it like normal DI?
Because I am probably a pro at that because of the stunt I pulled today.
Sorry for the double post, I have a knack for that.
Actually nvm, I read the post again...

 

[CanadaKid91]

Ness has the best throw in the game.(Back throw)
Ness' PKT2 kill's at very low percentages like 40% but is hard to be unpredictable.

Thank you for posting but let's try to keep this somewhat organized. Right now we're discussing the grab-release.

BTW, where's Ref or EB360? We could use some more opinions/discussion...

 

[Uffe]

Some characters can grab Ness better than others. Diddy Kong and Sonic just so happen to be a few. The only way to not get grabbed is to spot dodge. That's what it was made for. As for grab releases, if there are ways to control what direction you're going to go, then that could possibly be helpful. We'll take Bowser for example. With his grab release, I believe Ness can either move backwards or move in a diagonal direction in the air.

If you're able to manipulate this, then the opponent will have to predict what you're going to do. Because if you are grab released by Bowser and you move backwards, he can use his Flamethrower, d-tilt or some other attack like his Bowser Bomb. Another example is Captain Falcon. I'm not sure if he really has a grab release on Ness, though. However I was fighting someone who used Captain Falcon and they tried to do a grab release or something, because whenever I flew in a diagonal direction in the air, he was going to attempt some sort of attack. However, for some reason, I kept countering his attack with Ness' fair. But like I said, I'm not sure if Falcon has a grab release on Ness.

At low percent you should have no problem escaping a grab. It's a higher percent that makes it tough. Anyway, to avoid getting grabbed, if you plan on using your fair, be sure to retreat or do it high enough. Get your opponent in the air and the can't grab you, no doubt.

 

[xoxokev]

Spot dodging isn't the only way to escape a grab... I read this somewhere but I don't remember where... I think its basically the Rock Paper Scissors of Smash Bros.

Grab > Shield
Shield > Attack
Attack > Grab

So, in essence, attacking is another way to evade a grab

 

[Earthbound Zero]

Lol, Brawl=Competitive Rock, Paper, Scissors.

 

[ColinJF]

I don't really like the premise of this topic.

But about attacks beating grabs... they actually don't. If a grab and an attack are going to trade, the grabber takes the damage of the attack, but then gets the grab.

 

[Masky]

Solution to the grab-release problems? Learn a secondary character

But as for not getting grabbed, Ness can be played a lot like Wario against a lot of characters (imo he can out-Wario Wario). My advice is to play a good Wario and learn how they play, then try to adapt those strategies to Ness. Kinda hard to explain.

 

[xoxokev]

I don't really like the premise of this topic.

But about attacks beating grabs... they actually don't. If a grab and an attack are going to trade, the grabber takes the damage of the attack, but then gets the grab.

Yeah that does happen sometimes, I think only when the attack and the grab comes out at the same time. But if an attack is lingering while the grabber is trying to grab, then I'm pretty sure the attack beats the grab

 

[ColinJF]

There's nothing being "beat" in that case since there's no grab box out.

It's like saying Ness's forward smash beats Meta Knight's up taunt.

 

[xoxokev]

Well, yeah you're right, I shouldn't have said the word "beat". Wrong wording on my part... what I meant was, you're not able to get grabbed

EDIT:

@Masky: You're right about how Ness can be played like Wario, and vice-versa. I used Wario today against a friend, and I noticed how similar the play style is between Ness and Wario. I won that match, and I've only used Wario like four times.

EDIT2: I know Wario and Ness are very different characters, what I meant was that their aerial game is pretty similar. Please don't flame me for implying that their play styles are interchangeable

 

[CanadaKid91]

Interesting stuff guys, thanks for contributing :D

I'll update the first post with your points when I have time.
I suppose I should explain my reasons for creating this discussion thread. I guess, by the end of this thread's life I hope that we will have looked at all of Ness's weaknesses, and found ways to lessen their effects.

I'm also looking to improve every Ness player who wants Ness to play competitively. Or just for fun :D

 

[paper otavio]

Okay, a great solution would be keeping a great defense game as in predicting the opponent and attacking him before he grabs you.Like when someone approaches, doing a PKF in the air, or starting a dash attack(The one where you attack immediately from a dash animation), or you could even jump a bit backwards and use your F-air.I do these a lot to prevent attacks.
It's important to keep a big defensive game with Ness.
Oh, and about predicting, I suggest playing those characters that prove a big disadvantage to Ness and try to play them decently enough to know exactly what they have as a pro against him.
That, or playing a lot of skilled players, and learning the movesets.
Good DI, is also an important factor to this(The grab release thing)

Oh and sorry if any of this has been said, I didn't read the edited first post yet...

 

[paper otavio]

Hmm, well it looks like some of my solution was said at least..
Btw, is there any way to delete my posts?

 

[CanadaKid91]

Hmm, well it looks like some of my solution was said at least..
Btw, is there any way to delete my posts?

I don't think you can delete your post entirely, but you can Edit it all out.

 

[Neon Ness]

Avoid grabbing? Inconceivable!

Well, the first thing is to stay aerial. It's very basic, and I'm sure everyone here already knows that Ness belongs in the air. If you're in the air, they can't grab. Just don't use anything that will get you shieldgrabbed... Retreating with forward air is a good way to avoid this. While on land, it's important to use techniques that will keep the opppnent at bay. If they can't get close, they can't grab. I find that charging the Yo-Yo is good for this, better than PK Fire in a lot of instances. With the Yo-Yo outstretched, they'll walk right into that hitbox if they try to approach. But you have to be unpredictable with it; if you just throw it out randomly they'll punish your blind spot. Now, in the case that you do find that your opponent is right next to you, you've gotta get 'em away immediately. Neutral air as soon as you jump, that mess comes out fast. Even if they shield it, you're in the air now, and you can follow up from there safely.

Now le's look at opponents who are more likely to grab... in my opinion, of course.

Grab release to down smash... the bane of Ness. See, this is tough, because the "stay aerial" theory doesn't really work as well here... It's our fair versus his, and if I recall correctly his Falchion has more range than Ness' hands. His retreating forward air is a pain as well, and effectively keeps us at bay. Also, he has no projectiles, so it's not like he's just gonna stand at the edge of Final Destination and spam stuff. He will approach, and approaching means getting close... and getting close = bad for us because of the grab release. EIDI is your friend. I wouldn't recommend using PK Fire a whole lot against Marth... I can't think of any instance where, on the ground, you'd have enough time to pull it off, what with trying to avoid grabbing, down tilit poking, and Dancing Blade juggling. I think a lot of Neutral Air and YoYo are needed here... But I can't be sure, I don't have the most Marth experience.

Sonic has a decent grab game from what I've found personally using him. Since he runs so fast, he can pretty much run up and grab anytime you make even a slight mistake or miss with an attack. Our aerial game is superior, so Ness should stay airborne often to avoid the run up and grab problem... because it will be a problem on the ground. Trust. While on land, I'd suggest using short hopped down airs. A good Sonic will be all over the place, keeping the pressure on throughout the entire match while taking advantage of his speed. The down air's enormous hitbox will relieve some of that pressure, as Sonic getting close would often result in a missed grab (since Ness is aerial) and a foot in the face. Hitting with the sour spot is key, as sweetspotting it will just send him up from the ground instead of horizontally, and thus away from you. Obviously, this won't work the moment they pick up on it and start fighting above you. Now would be the time to bust out up tilt with its crazy priority. On land, a good Sonic will not just approach with a straightforward Spin Dash, that would punished too easily. All I can say is... expect the unexpected... Every Sonic is different and will use different mindgamez out of a Spin Dash/Spin Charge, so it's mostly about picking up on habits and punishing accordingly.

This fool has crazy grab range, and your opponent will take advantage of it if they really know what they're doing. I'd refrain from using the Fiyah too much, I tried it yesterday and got rawked. If you're close enough to hit with Fire, I think you're close enough to get Oligrabbed. And even if I did hit with it, they would DI, I'd miss the grab, and get grabbed myself. Neutral air does work wonders, don't let those Pikmin latch on to you for too long. His aerials come out surprisingly fast as well, though, so I don't know about completely relying on Ness' aerials. I honestly don't have a whole heck of a lot of good advice for this matchup, I don't think my Ness beat any Olimars there the entire time. Pick Battlefield and hope for the best?

I don't have as much knowledge or experience as a lot of the other Nesses here, but hopefully that was at least somewhat useful.

 

[CanadaKid91]

Avoid grabbing? Inconceivable!

Well, the first thing is to stay aerial. It's very basic, and I'm sure everyone here already knows that Ness belongs in the air. If you're in the air, they can't grab. Just don't use anything that will get you shieldgrabbed... Retreating with forward air is a good way to avoid this. While on land, it's important to use techniques that will keep the opppnent at bay. If they can't get close, they can't grab. I find that charging the Yo-Yo is good for this, better than PK Fire in a lot of instances. With the Yo-Yo outstretched, they'll walk right into that hitbox if they try to approach. But you have to be unpredictable with it; if you just throw it out randomly they'll punish your blind spot. Now, in the case that you do find that your opponent is right next to you, you've gotta get 'em away immediately. Neutral air as soon as you jump, that mess comes out fast. Even if they shield it, you're in the air now, and you can follow up from there safely.

Now le's look at opponents who are more likely to grab... in my opinion, of course.

Grab release to down smash... the bane of Ness. See, this is tough, because the "stay aerial" theory doesn't really work as well here... It's our fair versus his, and if I recall correctly his Falchion has more range than Ness' hands. His retreating forward air is a pain as well, and effectively keeps us at bay. Also, he has no projectiles, so it's not like he's just gonna stand at the edge of Final Destination and spam stuff. He will approach, and approaching means getting close... and getting close = bad for us because of the grab release. EIDI is your friend. I wouldn't recommend using PK Fire a whole lot against Marth... I can't think of any instance where, on the ground, you'd have enough time to pull it off, what with trying to avoid grabbing, down tilit poking, and Dancing Blade juggling. I think a lot of Neutral Air and YoYo are needed here... But I can't be sure, I don't have the most Marth experience.

Sonic has a decent grab game from what I've found personally using him. Since he runs so fast, he can pretty much run up and grab anytime you make even a slight mistake or miss with an attack. Our aerial game is superior, so Ness should stay airborne often to avoid the run up and grab problem... because it will be a problem on the ground. Trust. While on land, I'd suggest using short hopped down airs. A good Sonic will be all over the place, keeping the pressure on throughout the entire match while taking advantage of his speed. The down air's enormous hitbox will relieve some of that pressure, as Sonic getting close would often result in a missed grab (since Ness is aerial) and a foot in the face. Hitting with the sour spot is key, as sweetspotting it will just send him up from the ground instead of horizontally, and thus away from you. Obviously, this won't work the moment they pick up on it and start fighting above you. Now would be the time to bust out up tilt with its crazy priority. On land, a good Sonic will not just approach with a straightforward Spin Dash, that would punished too easily. All I can say is... expect the unexpected... Every Sonic is different and will use different mindgamez out of a Spin Dash/Spin Charge, so it's mostly about picking up on habits and punishing accordingly.

This fool has crazy grab range, and your opponent will take advantage of it if they really know what they're doing. I'd refrain from using the Fiyah too much, I tried it yesterday and got rawked. If you're close enough to hit with Fire, I think you're close enough to get Oligrabbed. And even if I did hit with it, they would DI, I'd miss the grab, and get grabbed myself. Neutral air does work wonders, don't let those Pikmin latch on to you for too long. His aerials come out surprisingly fast as well, though, so I don't know about completely relying on Ness' aerials. I honestly don't have a whole heck of a lot of good advice for this matchup, I don't think my Ness beat any Olimars there the entire time. Pick Battlefield and hope for the best?

I don't have as much knowledge or experience as a lot of the other Nesses here, but hopefully that was at least somewhat useful.

Wow Neon, thanks so much!

I'm definately adding this to the first post... give me some time and I'll have it up!

 

[Gaussis]

I haven't seen a mention in this, so might as well add it in.

The best way to avoid any grab shenanigans is to learn what the other character can do. Some characters may have something they can do to Ness out of a grab, but that still doesn't mean they could. They may not be able to keep you out of a grounded release, which is the only release in which Ness is universally vulnerable (or around those lines). If a character holds Ness above the ground, then there is a chance of being air released. If a character pummels too slowly, then there's also another chance at an air release. Details on how to do later.

 

[PKNintendo]

I hope you realise that posting this will allow other boards to know are weaknesses. At least the Wario boards didn't yell out their weakness. Please Ness mains, discuss ANYTHING but this.

 

[Gaussis]

I had a topic in mind. Why not discuss PKT usage? I mean, it must be a downright horrible recovery and sometimes, a second jump would not be available to you. So, how would we use PKT to save ourselves?

*Note: Some parts of this post had traces or sarcasm in it . In a good way of course.

 

[PKNintendo]

I had a topic in mind. Why not discuss PKT usage? I mean, it must be a downright horrible recovery and sometimes, a second jump would not be available to you. So, how would we use PKT to save ourselves?

*Note: Some parts of this post had traces or sarcasm in it . In a good way of course.

This.

Much better idea.

 

[xoxokev]

I hope you realise that posting this will allow other boards to know are weaknesses. At least the Wario boards didn't yell out their weakness. Please Ness mains, discuss ANYTHING but this.

Good point

 

[Neon Ness]

I hope you realise that posting this will allow other boards to know are weaknesses. At least the Wario boards didn't yell out their weakness. Please Ness mains, discuss ANYTHING but this.

...Then my wall of useless rambling text was for nothing?

In that case, let's discuss mindgamez and using two aerials in one short hop.

 

[xoxokev]

Yes, yes, the "Double Aerial Shuffle" as EB360 likes to call it

 

[PKNintendo]

...Then my wall of useless rambling text was for nothing?

In that case, let's discuss mindgamez and using two aerials in one short hop.

No... It was quite useful in terms of avoiding it.

 

[Masky]

...Then my wall of useless rambling text was for nothing?

In that case, let's discuss mindgamez and using two aerials in one short hop.

just don't give away my mindgames

 

[Gaussis]

B-b-but I wanted Ness to learn to recover using the odd little thunder he uses.
PK THUNDAH!
------_-O
-----/
-----|

 

[Masky]

B-b-but I wanted Ness to learn to recover using the odd little thunder he uses.
PK THUNDAH!
------_-O
-----/
-----|

omg that is the best ascii art ever... I wish I could put it in my signature

 

[Ref]

Oh stupid stuff:

If you are going to get hit by some low angle move like Mk's D air while Pk thundering, mash the C stick up and you'll smash DI up quite a bit. This can save you.

There is a risk because mashing the C stick up changes the angle of PKT.

 

[xoxokev]

I think we should just turn this thread into a random chat thread lol

...just kidding!
...but seriously

...maybe

PK THUNDAH!
------_-O
-----/
-----|

Too good

 

[Gaussis]

Oh stupid stuff:

If you are going to get hit by some low angle move like Mk's D air while Pk thundering, mash the C stick up and you'll smash DI up quite a bit. This can save you.

There is a risk because mashing the C stick up changes the angle of PKT.

It won't do that thing with the Ness uair the other day, right?

I mean like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQvhgk7aXtY at 4:03.

 

[Ref]

It'll do that except Ness will move up as oppose to down meaning you'll be at pretty much the same elevation. Maybe higher or slightly lower depending on percents.