The next official build and the wait time between builds

[shanus]

I'm of the opinion that our next release should act as a solid release for at least 3 months (lots of tournaments scheduled till like January) and it would be a killer way to build some good data / feedback.

Thoughts?

 

[goodoldganon]

I noticed we nerfed Snake's tilts. I won't get into a discussion on that, everyone knows my stance. I did think we had agreed that Snake was a balanced character beforehand, just the tilts were causing problems. So we are nerfing his tilts with no buffs or anything in return? Seems a little underhanded to poor Snake and I'll be upfront when I say that the recent nerfs we have been discussing on Wario and Snake really boil down to the fact they were amazing in Brawl and much of that amazingness carried into +.

Otherwise I do agree getting this set out soon would be great for all the reasons mentioned. It's a really solid set with a lot of good things.

 

[Deleted member]

If someone manages to make the PAL version for it, fine with me.
I'm too busy with college to do anything smash related.

 

[The Cape]

I have listed in multiple locations about Snake changes that can assist in the playstyle.

Fair IASA for jump and upB the frame after the kick ends and IASA for AD 5 frames after the cypher is grabbed.

 

[Almas]

Sounds good. May need to update for non-gameplay changes.

Does the file replacement code need porting to PAL for PSA to work?

 

[JCaesar]

We should do another podcast when the new official build comes out, since it will be THE build for a long time and for many large tourneys. The last podcast you guys did (right when I was really getting into Brawl+) was really interesting and helpful, at least to me. It would be a good place to go over all the recent character changes and mechanics changes.

 

[Revven]

Sounds good. May need to update for non-gameplay changes.

Does the file replacement code need porting to PAL for PSA to work?

No, but, it does need porting period to PAL for music stuff anyway. If you wanted to, port it for people who have been dying for music with PAL SSBB. Other than that, no, it's not needed File Replacement 2.1a works perfectly fine. It's the .PACs that are the problem as the NSTC-U ones will not work for PAL due to different SFXs, thus will be muted so you have to use the PAL .PACs.

 

[CT Chia]

I would say 3 months minimum. And even after that the next changes should be very minimum and just based on balancing from the tourney results we get. BtL2 shoudl hopefully be in Dec.

 

[GHNeko]

I'd say 4-5 months, but that's just me since I can actually wait that long without getting antsy.

This info will be made public correct?

Also, let's make sure Olimar isnt left as is before official. :V

 

[Shell]

I think that we need to get our "vision" finalized.

Right now we've had a lot of talk in the nightly thread about making the game a little less E-Z by...

1) Increasing everyone's gravity (or at least converting D-grav to U-grav to peak faster)
2) Lowering Hitstun from .48 to .44
3) Adjusting KB and IASA of most the casts combo moves

Overall the response to a faster, harder to master game has only been positive, and it's something that I think we should experiment with and possibly go through with.

Additionally, if we're making mechanic changes, we should firm those up...

1) PS reflect system was generally liked all around, and combined with the combo-system tweaks could really exorcise the final remains of camping.
2) New footstool and footstool-cancel system
3) Any smexy (but non-monopolizing) movement options akin (but not necessarily) moonwalking etc.
4) Any other ATs such as any grab mechanics or canceling mumbo-jumbo should be talked about again


The main point I'm trying to raise is that I'm unsure that it's best to let even a highly polished build set for 3-5 months if we have the intention of changing the game so much, especially for the better.

As for the argument of changing so much so late, I think that the final projected changelist should be submitted to the community, and we'll go from there. So far the response has been all positive, and if these changes really could take Brawl+ from goodness to excellence, it would be a shame to hold ourselves back.

My plan would be to release a highly polished 5.0 build within the next couple days. Then, over the next month, we finalize our vision and implement the changes (as per above), adding in any balance tweaks / suggestions gleamed from 5.0 official release. Then, if the feedback is positive, we release a 6.0 test set for a couple weeks, refine that and let the 6.0 official be the one we let sit for 3 months.


Edit: Personally, I think that if this isn't deserving of an IRC meeting, then I don't know what is. Shanus, would you mind running another when2meet poll so we can get a time together? This weekend could work.

Also, we need to get feedback on this from even the non-active WBR members.

*cough-storm-g-reg-MuBa-NinjaLink-etc-cough*

 

[GHNeko]

just to make sure, during this period of time, we wont be releasing nightlys (or weeklies or monthlies) right?

 

[shanus]

Making all those changes would take months Shell, not just one. Also if you are shaving off 2 frames of hitstun, it will reqyire huge new balance changes. Faster jump speeds wont be the ebnd all means. I think everyone is severely underestimating the balance effects of decreasing hitstun so much

 

[GHNeko]

I thought we were only decreasing the hitstun by a small amount.

 

[goodoldganon]

I thought we were only decreasing the hitstun by a small amount.

There are plenty of combos that wouldn't be combos after removing the 2-3 frames of hitstun. Kupo massively overrates how hard combos were in Melee and brawl+ and people are eating out of the palm of his hand. Stringing together bread and butter combos in any fighting game haven't been hard and melee and brawl+ are no different. If we want to make Brawl+ more challenging to play we shouldn't be messing with the combo game but instead should be tweaking what makes Smash Brothers different.

EDIT: I do believe that this set is great but without fixing the ledge game and powershielding projectiles I don't think we can just let it be for 3 months. I'd also like to look at the power of DI.

 

[Revven]

Well, we already have control over SDI. I don't think we should WAIT for something that isn't going to come out soon just to make it feel "better" when we could appease the masses with a set for 3-5 months while we work on other things back here, which would INCLUDE the things you're wanting, have it all polished and set up for another release.

It's silly to keep a set back for codes or anything related to that that we're not getting any time soon. We've kept them waiting a month already.

 

[Shell]

....If we want to make Brawl+ more challenging to play we shouldn't be messing with the combo game but instead should be tweaking what makes Smash Brothers different.

EDIT: I do believe that this set is great but without fixing the ledge game and powershielding projectiles I don't think we can just let it be for 3 months. I'd also like to look at the power of DI.

@GoG: Could you elaborate on what makes smash different that you want to explore? Are you referring to the PS reflect and edge, or something else?

@Faclo400: Yeah, that's why I wanna release 5.0 official right now and then get straight to it.

I realize a single month is probably a little ambitious for what I'm proposing given all of our work schedules, but the point is that if we agree on some of those core changes, we shouldn't deliberately wait 3-5 months to implement them. Rather, get a solid 5.0 out and then do what we can as soon as we can.

 

[The Cape]

PS reflect I still think is a stupid idea. It actually makes camping worse as you can no longer use projectiles to approach safely. The defensive options, even with the sidestep changes are still ridiculously solid and can cover everything we need them to cover.

We dont need PS reflect.

 

[GHNeko]

It also forces projectile campers and spammers to do something else.

It's a double edge sword. *shrugs*

 

[goodoldganon]

I'd be happy to SHeLL.

What makes Smash different than other fighting games is mainly the ledge system. We need a polished ledge teching code. We need to fix auto-snapping side-bs. We need to fix the absurd grab range (and possibly adjust he recoveries that nerfs) Making a more elegant and skilled edge would go a long way to making Brawl+ a better a game.

Powershielding is just a sidegrade I'd like to see addressed but isn't what makes Smash, well Smash.

 

[JCaesar]

yes @ GoG's post.

Ideally powershielding should be more difficult before we add it, but ultimately I'd like to see it be a part of Brawl+.

 

[leafgreen386]

We do need to release a solid set soon. I just wish we could polish some of the mechanics first, since it's going to be the version the public sees for the next several months. Dunno if we have the time, though. The biggest one I'd like to see fixed is autosweetspot on hit, which alone would make the ledgegame better. If we could just get that one fix in, I think we'd have a solid enough build until we could release our overhaul, which... is not going to be an easy task. Getting that done in a month... is very optimistic, shell lol

 

[The Cape]

Ledges in general need work. The faster pace of the game with the stupid slow ledge stands and rolls makes it rough to get off the ledge to a point where it can be nearly impossible against a good player. Possibly give these a char specific look over like we want to with tech rolls might be a good solution.

Also, wall techs (not wall jump) and ceiling techs could use a universal speed up as you just kind of stick there now.