The New Match-Up Chart v2 - Convert to +/-? ;;>_>

[TalosSSB]

I get pumped when the crowed cheers for me.

 

[asianaussie]

im respecting semp a lot, lot more these days

 

[t3h Icy]

lol, this thread is over a year old and bad.

 

[Neon!]

it means pikachu has a 65% win rate most all some of the time

no wait, it means pikachu will win 65/100 65000/100000 matches

hold up, no, it's the stock proportion pikachu will have when fox is at 1 stock and 0%



just call it an advantage and be done with it

also, <3 cocky noobs with brawl FC codes

It's been a while since I've been called a noob lol, I'm a top DK player in brawl
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=296541

I'm also one of the best 64 players in TX. Fox vs pika is close to even on hyrule (55-45) but harder for fox on dreamland, kongo and peach's castle (60-40) It's hard but not nearly as hard as this chart says.

 

[Sempiternity]

I'm a top DK player in brawl

that doesn't mean much

 

[ballin4life]

It's been a while since I've been called a noob lol, I'm a top DK player in brawl
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=296541

I'm also one of the best 64 players in TX. Fox vs pika is close to even on hyrule (55-45) but harder for fox on dreamland, kongo and peach's castle (60-40) It's hard but not nearly as hard as this chart says.

so according to you this matchup chart is completely worthless because in your opinion it's off by 5 points on one particular matchup. right.

also have you played online? what good players have you played? we get TONS of people who come in here and claim that they are the best and that we are all wrong and that ness is good if you know how to use him and so on. seriously it happens every other week.

 

[t3h Icy]

It's been a while since I've been called a noob lol, I'm a top DK player in brawl
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=296541

Damn, get on that Aesirgod status!

 

[Battlecow]

It's been a while since I've been called a noob lol, I'm a top DK player in brawl
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=296541

I'm also one of the best 64 players in TX. Fox vs pika is close to even on hyrule (55-45) but harder for fox on dreamland, kongo and peach's castle (60-40) It's hard but not nearly as hard as this chart says.

First of all, being good at brawl does not elevate you in our opinion, and second of all, unless you've played someone we actually know, we're not going to take your word for it that you're "one of the best 64 players in texas." (although you likely are because there's only like two players in texas).

 

[The Star King]

Why you always gotta be so condescending towards newcomers Battlecow

I mean, I agree with your first paragraph, but in regards to your last sentence, there's a chance he does know what he's talking about. I would give him the benefit of the doubt until he says stuff that actually show he doesn't know what he's talking about

 

[Battlecow]

what last sentence

are you seeing things again

 

[The Star King]

My first reaction was >_________>

But then I realized that means you agree and I'd rather not argue, so ^_^

 

[Neon!]

I play smash 64 with well known (Brawl) players such as Denti (top 5 in Brawl in TX) and Infinity. I'm not sure which 64 players you're referring to that live in TX, I would like to know their names though. I primarily use fox and falcon.

Brawl and 64 are entirely different games but the basics of each are easily transferable such as zoning, baiting and stage control. Two main differences being the incredible amount of hitstun in 64 and the lack of auto-ledges making recovery much more of hassle.

Pikachu only wins against fox because of his superior edgeguarding and recovery. On stage Fox's lasers allow him to control horizontal space well, this coupled with his extremely safe jab/grab game and generally well ranged aerials make him fairly tough to approach. Pikachu has many tools as well such as his versatile up-b allowing him to escape combos and his amazing aerial game. If the stage was completely flat and was just a walkoff I'd argue that they were even, Hyrule is the closest to this and has been argued as pika's only even matchup.

Next time me and Denti play I may try to record our matches so we can be judged by the all mighty smash gods.

 

[ballin4life]

vids would be cool. more vids are always appreciated.

remember we're talking about Dreamland for this list so Pika's HUGE advantage in recovery and gimping matters a lot more (compared with Hyrule).

Fox lasers also aren't as good since Dreamland is horizontally small and provides nice platforms to get around the lasers vertically.

the main thing i'm confused about is that you think it's 55-45 on Hyrule and 60-40 on Dreamland, so the Hyrule to Dreamland transition is only worth 5 points? It'd be more consistent IMO to call it 50-50 on Hyrule and 60-40 on Dreamland.

 

[Neon!]

vids would be cool. more vids are always appreciated.

remember we're talking about Dreamland for this list so Pika's HUGE advantage in recovery and gimping matters a lot more (compared with Hyrule).

Fox lasers also aren't as good since Dreamland is horizontally small and provides nice platforms to get around the lasers vertically.

the main thing i'm confused about is that you think it's 55-45 on Hyrule and 60-40 on Dreamland, so the Hyrule to Dreamland transition is only worth 5 points? It'd be more consistent IMO to call it 50-50 on Hyrule and 60-40 on Dreamland.

I agree with everything you said. 50-50 for hyrule, 60-40 for dreamland.

I do actually have a couple videos of myself but they were just friendles with my brother when were just getting into the game about 8 months ago. I posted them a while ago for a critique and people seemed to be impressed with them since we were just starting out. If you're absolutely dying to see them I can post them I suppose.

 

[asianaussie]

65-35 (why are we still using ratios) is not farfetched for pika fox on DL, but 60-40 is probably closer to the truth

just call it pika advantage and be done with it, jeez

 

[kys]

62-38 has a better feel imo. Or maybe 63-37. Close call between the two.

 

[asianaussie]

should just call it 62.5-37.5, it works

i think somebody (armada?) referred to a decimal ratio in the melee thread, and they were 100% serious...but that was because he thought it was between two increments of 5, so alright

 

[Battlecow]

cough playingforeightmonths cough

Dude your arguments are just like a super-duper basic explanation of fox's and pika's characters. Doesn't show anything about the matchup. This is your reasoning for "not being able to trust any of these numbers?" laaaaaaaame

 

[The Star King]

Snake/tacos is the only player from Texas I can think of off the top of my head

Also eight months can be pretty long depending on how much you play. I was like at least high B tier by that time. Why am I the one defending him

 

[clubbadubba]

Next time me and Denti play I may try to record our matches so we can be judged by the all mighty smash gods.

Fear not my child, for we are merciful gods. Seriously though you should post those old vids

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Eight months is a good time of length, it also depends on what you're learning and who you're playing.

What sucks is when someone (like me) goes on hiatus and they're rusty and they have to work to get better again I've technically been playing 64 competitively for 6 years now.

I think i'm High B/Maybe A (?) at this point.

 

[Neon!]

I'll post the video but remember this was 8 months ago lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggDIvsX1jDc

My style with fox now is somewhat similar but more refined of course, few to no missed l-cancels, smarter camping and longer strings.

Saying that fox does as bad against pikachu as DK does seemed ridiculous to me. I'd also love to hear why falcon apparently does the best against pika, his recovery is one of the worst of the high tiers and pika's floatiness and up-b allow to escape falcon's uairs more easily.

 

[Battlecow]

Falcon gets killed almost every time he gets tossed off against pika, but against a good pika, fox almost never recovers either. IMO, fox is actually a little easier to gimp than falcon because of the longer start-up on his up-B.

If a falcon is U-airing until the Pika can just up-B out, he's a bad falcon. Falcon can't always 02D pika, of course, but competitive-level falcons do have options other than straight-up uair chains. certainly on DL his combo game is better than fox's vs. Pikachu; horizontal kills and edgeguards (yes, falcon can edgeguard pika. Another thing he has over fox) are so much more convenient than on hyurule that vertical killing power becomes less valuable.

None of this means that the MU is 65-35 instead of 60-40, I honestly kind of lean towards your side here (maaaaybe...). But saying that a MU chart is invalid because of one 5-point disagreement is ridiculous when you only have a rudimentary knowledge of the MU's in question in the first place.

Of course, this is a work in progress so you're not entirely wrong about it being invalid either...

Broken clock, two times a day

 

[ballin4life]

falcon combos pika really well on dreamland

i agree with the DK thing (though I admit to not knowing much about DK). DK should be a 70 in my noobish opinion.

but on the other hand I do think Falcon >= Kirby > Fox against Pika on Dreamland.

 

[clubbadubba]

Not bad at all Neon, though that falcon didn't seem quite on your level (4 usmashes in a row or something lol). Would like to see some recent stuff when you can.

Dk vs pika is defintely better than fox vs pika ON DREAMLAND IMO. Fox's lasers are significantly nerfed on dreamland unless your name is SHEERMADNESS, so he is way more limited than on hyrule obviously. The big advantage Dk has is that he is one of the few characters pika should be scared of grab battling with (falcon is the only other imo). combine that with some bair spacing, and dk can be very scary for pikachu to approach. Fox on the other hand isn't all that scary to approach if you just use pika's bair, and is way easier to gimp imo.

 

[Neon!]

I understand that Fox does much worse on DL than other characters but fox also seems to do just fine/better than other characters on CJ and PC consdering how well he controls those stages when he is in the center. Apparently these stages dont come into play that often though considering the very linear counter picking system in this game compared to brawl. Fox should always cp to hyrule and pika should always cp to DL.

 

[Sangoku]

clubba: Maybe not bad, but really far from the level needed to comment a matchup. I know that's old and stuff... But still, talking about escaping a combo means you don't understand the principle of this game (as opposed to melee/brawl I guess). Battlecow summed up everything pretty well. Liked his last sentence.

And neon, how is that (the counterpick thing) related to the matchup value?

 

[Neon!]

clubba: Maybe not bad, but really far from the level needed to comment a matchup. I know that's old and stuff... But still, talking about escaping a combo means you don't understand the principle of this game (as opposed to melee/brawl I guess). Battlecow summed up everything pretty well. Liked his last sentence.

And neon, how is that (the counterpick thing) related to the matchup value?

My reference to pika being able to escape combos was a misnomer. What i meant was falcon can't string together as many uairs on pika as he can to most characters due to pika's light weight, floatiness and up-b escape option.

I brought up the other stages since everyone was only talking about DL and hyrule but then once i was done typing that portion i realized that CJ and PC dont really matter in the matchup since you can't ban stages in this game.

 

[kys]

It's sad that our community STILL gives Falcon waaay too much credit on Dreamland. But I'll be quiet since this is about pika/fox. Really everyone needs to start playing on Congo, the most fair stage in the game, and forget all this Hyrule/Dreamland nonsense.

 

[SheerMadness]

Fox vs pika on dreamland is my favorite match up these days.

The only pikas I can't go pretty even with are the Booms and Malvas of the world. Fox can control the stage pretty well with lasers and spacing. Retreating fairs seems to confuse a lot of pikachus and they can't figure out how to approach. Plus Fox can edgeguard pika pretty well too.

Dunno what the match up ratio should be honestly.

 

[The Star King]

Pretty sure you haven't gone even against my Pika in my keyboard prime

Also I've thought about it and I agree that it's 60-40, maybe I'm just too good at thinking myself into an opinion though (lol so true)

I think people like to underrate Fox's laser game on Dreamland because "lol not Hyrule". Yeah, but it's also a relatively flat stage, and you can control pretty much the entire stage with lasers safely except the top platform. Play SheerMadness kids.

My reference to pika being able to escape combos was a misnomer. What i meant was falcon can't string together as many uairs on pika as he can to most characters due to pika's light weight, floatiness and up-b escape option.

Yeah he can't string together as many uairs, but it often doesn't matter because Falcon can zero-to-death anyways... Pikachu dies from up-b at like 70%, and sometimes as low as 50 (i.e. at 16% near the edge, fthrow -> second hit fair -> uair -> up-B kills)

 

[SheerMadness]

But we haven't even played in like 10 months so I can't count you.

 

[The Star King]

10? Like 6 at most.

Maybe I should whip out the keyboard just for you bby

 

[SheerMadness]

I dunno it's been a long while. Plus I doubt we played the Fox/Pika match up last time we did play, so it's been extra long.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

Dk vs pika is defintely better than fox vs pika ON DREAMLAND IMO. Fox's lasers are significantly nerfed on dreamland unless your name is SHEERMADNESS, so he is way more limited than on hyrule obviously. The big advantage Dk has is that he is one of the few characters pika should be scared of grab battling with (falcon is the only other imo). combine that with some bair spacing, and dk can be very scary for pikachu to approach. Fox on the other hand isn't all that scary to approach if you just use pika's bair, and is way easier to gimp imo.

DK is an interesting matchup against pika. DK has a pretty good defense game against pika, but his approach is kinda lacking against pika. Another thing to note is that if DK gets hits at all, he just kinda gets comboed to death since he's so fat, while pika only takes minor damage most of the time(fthrow upb, or upb/bthrow only lol).

It's sad that our community STILL gives Falcon waaay too much credit on Dreamland. But I'll be quiet since this is about pika/fox. Really everyone needs to start playing on Congo, the most fair stage in the game, and forget all this Hyrule/Dreamland nonsense.

uh, falcon is THAT good on dreamland, unless you're fighting fox or maybe PRO pikas.

Fox vs pika on dreamland is my favorite match up these days.

The only pikas I can't go pretty even with are the Booms and Malvas of the world. Fox can control the stage pretty well with lasers and spacing. Retreating fairs seems to confuse a lot of pikachus and they can't figure out how to approach. Plus Fox can edgeguard pika pretty well too.

Dunno what the match up ratio should be honestly.

Still obviously advantage for Pika. Too easy to gimp fox compared to other characters.

I have a real problem with approaching in this matchup as pika, but that's because my pika is bad pwn.

 

[The Star King]

Don't think anybody disagrees with Pikachu advantage. And IDK Fox seems good at beating Pikachu's approaches, maybe it's not just you

 

[clubbadubba]

Yo Boom maybe you should put some work in on your ****ty *** pikachu

 

[The Star King]

lol dude no hope, this noob will never amount to anything

 

[TANK64]

Dat callout.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

ill fite u