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The New Match-Up Chart v2 - Convert to +/-? ;;>_>

t3h Icy

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The last chart was originally made since nobody was running such a project, and I love statistics and that sort of thing. It was a bit bumpy, but turned out nicely and lead to the new tier list, the first in years.

While it's still fairly up-to-date, a few people would like something done a bit better, especially since then, the Smash 64 board has gained more of its own section, its own backroom and has grown since (as far as tournaments and such go).

This time around, we're going with a numerical system as there were many debacles about exactly how good/bad match-ups are. For this since match-ups at best/worst are about 75-25, I've only included those numbers. However, if there's discussion that a match-up is actually better/worse than that, I'll change it and adjust the colouring.

We're also doing stage-specific charts as last time for a master chart, it was often averaged out. With this method, we'll have much more precise data, and know how each character does on each stage.

Currently, we're working on Dreamland, and will move on to the other stages later. As a default, I converted all the match-ups from the last chart to a mutliple of 10, and used the previous chart as a base for this one, so there are bound to be many accuracy errors, as well as precision ones. Characters are in weighted order, that being, being good against Pikachu is significantly more valuable than being good against Samus. This is all ordered and well analyzed, and I'll put up the data for this once changes begin.

We're also going to do one character at a time.

This is a community project, and my opinion is of appropriate weight as anyone else's, I'm just leading the project.





For mathematical information on how I'm calculating weighing match-ups, etc, please see this post.

Previous Chart Contributors

Blue Yoshi, cheeseball341, Daedatheus, DMoogle, Earthadept, Fireblaster, Firo, Kefit, KoRoBeNiKi, MattNF, neaR, Nintendude1189, Nixxxon, P D, s2j, SheerMadness, SuPeRbOoM, Superstar, Surri-Sama, t3h Icy, Thegreginator, Zen Yore

Update History

April 21st: Initial thread
April 23rd: Initial Dreamland chart
April 28th: Pikachu 65 Fox, DK, Yoshi, Jigglypuff, 75 Link
May 1st: Pikachu 55 Falcon
May 6th: Kirby 60 Fox, Falcon 55 Fox, Fox 50 Mario, Fox 55 Yoshi, Fox 65 Ness, Fox 60 Luigi
 

ciaza

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I'm glad my idea put forward in the other thread was taken into careful consideration.

I really think we should think this new match-up thread idea through thoroughly before going ahead with such a big decision that could potentially change the tier list drastically.
 

t3h Icy

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Agreed, we won't jump into anything until the community are all for the same idea, even if it takes a bit of time. And I think a possible update to the tier list would be nice; the last one was more for finally getting around to a proper update, but there was still a lot of discussion on tweaking it, such as Pikachu being in his own tier, and some shuffling among the bottom tiered characters. Hopefully this will work things out well.
 

Battlecow

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I'm for stage-specific charts, but there should be an "overall" or master chart as well. I think that a numerical system is good because 55-45's matter, and it's discernible IMO to a point where +1 won't do it. All the discussion should be in one thread.
 

t3h Icy

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Continuation/adaptation of the other thread?
More or less, but I started a new thread so we can work on this on a fresh start. I'll put up all the old information in the OP once we get things settled for this one.

I'm for stage-specific charts, but there should be an "overall" or master chart as well. I think that a numerical system is good because 55-45's matter, and it's discernible IMO to a point where +1 won't do it. All the discussion should be in one thread.
Thanks for the opinion. I'm for all the same things as you, but this is a group project. So we'll discuss these things once other people give their input.

there should be color/matchup marker definitions
Yes, if we use advantages or other things that need some information, I'll make sure everything is more understandable this time. I'm not fond of having to read images (ie I'll have character images, not names), but I'll make sure there's a way to indicate everything.
 

Fynal

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overall and (tourney legal) stage-specific charts, definitely. IMO same thing for normal tier list, but thats a different thread.

I do like the color icons, but the 45-55 is problematic. You'd basically need a different color for every increment of 5%
 

t3h Icy

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It depends on how distinctive you want each one. What I did before was have 50-50 be white and each point down increases in redness, while each point up increases in blueness, all the way to total red and blue (ff0000 and 0000ff)

Check it out:
 

x After Dawn x

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is that list like incomplete or something? there's missing info, for example, on kirby's matchups

either way don't put any 100-0 matchups. there's no such thing as having a 0 % chance of winning
 

t3h Icy

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Yeah, it's incomplete. And Smash64 is a lot closer anyway. The worst of match-ups are probably still hovering around the 75-25 point (I think).
 

HellxBound

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I'm for stage-specific charts, but there should be an "overall" or master chart as well. I think that a numerical system is good because 55-45's matter, and it's discernible IMO to a point where +1 won't do it. All the discussion should be in one thread.
+1 (I agree with every part of this post and am using more than ten characters to do so)
 

asianaussie

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the backroom is doing this already, though if teh icy wants to collate it he can have the data

a community discussion about this is fine, just note that the backroom is doing this from scratch, almost all of pika and a few of fox's have been done in-depth in miniguide format

i believe the consensus at the moment is to do hyrule and dreamland charts, as congo can be made up with a few tweaks to the dreamland chart, and nobody plays peach's for some reason

go ahead and discuss, just note the backroom is plodding along with this same project
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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is that pikachu's matchup against the rest of the cast or what? lololol
Lol, i know you are kidding but it is slightly true.

In my opinion the worst matchups in smash 64 are (in my personal order from worst to best of the worst).

Easily the worst matchup Broken
Pikachu vs Samus: Pikachu out prioritizes EVERYTHING with ANYTHING. Borderline of 75-25 and 75-30. Samus has issues edgeguarding. Samus's gimp game is terrible vs Pikachu.

Just try approaching Broken

Fox vs Jigglypuff: Jigglypuff dies way too early. Lasers prevent approach. Fox has no issue comboing or prioritizing any floaty.

Fox vs Samus: Samus can't camp. Fox's lasers are mad stupid. Samus has to almost solely rely on gimps and Samus isn't that good at getting them.

Getting killed at 20 percent is fun Broken

DK vs Jigglypuff: You die at I believe 10 percent to a grab charge punch...WTF. D-air to up smash kills way too early. Up b prevents many approaches. N-air works wonders.

Luigi vs Jigglypuff: See DK. The only reason why I put Luigi as lower is due to Luigi having lower priority and a more predictable kill game. Up b kill percent is still stupid.

Most likely Broken

Falcon vs Samus: Samus gets simply overwhelmed. Falcon has no issues comboing floaties.

Kirby vs Falcon: LOL U-tilt: possibly 60-40

I like how Samus makes our game as unbalanced as brawl....not to mention also that Jigglypuff is the definition of a glass cannon with more glass than cannon
 

The Star King

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Fox Puff and Luigi Puff aren't that bad dammit. Also leaning towards DK Puff not being that bad, but I don't have enough experience to really say.

i believe the consensus at the moment is to do hyrule and dreamland charts, as congo can be made up with a few tweaks to the dreamland chart, and nobody plays peach's for some reason
Lolwut. Pretty sure it's mostly nobody playing on Congo also. I don't know if I agree with what you said.
 

Blue Yoshi

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Jake is definitely dropping Yoshi
As far as DK vs Puff, I believe if you mash fast enough, DK will never do his F-throw, so the F-throw to Punch combo will not happen. I don't remember if you need TAS mashing or not, but either way, that combo should not happen often if you mash properly.
 

Battlecow

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The city is banned'd'd'd under the new BRuleset. They didn't bother with explanations or any of that nonsense.
 

t3h Icy

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Okay, so a lot faster than I thought, most people agree on the same things:

Numerical System?
All discussion in here?
Stage-specific charts?

However, what stages are to be included? Hyrule and Dreamland are for sure, and a "master chart" too, but how about Congo Jungle and Peach's Castle?

So you guys are fine with these settings? I'll let this sit for a bit in case some people are busy for the weekend, and then we'll get started.
 

Blue Yoshi

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Jake is definitely dropping Yoshi
i lost all hope in smash 64
However, keep in mind that rules for a specific tournament ultimately depend on the TO's decision. The smash 64 backroom ruleset, like the ruleset in all the other games, are simply a guide for a TO to make the rules for his specific tournament. Me, for example, when I host local smash 64 tournaments, I have Saffron as a counterpick, and often Planet Zebes as well since lots of people here like those stage.
 

The Star King

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The city is banned'd'd'd under the new BRuleset. They didn't bother with explanations or any of that nonsense.
Nobody ever asked. Don't make it sound worse than it is.

Kind of silly when the guy who argued most against a Backroom existing is forced to defend it.

With that said, I wish there was more testing involved instead of it being banned purely based off Super Theory Bros + Boomfan's influence, even though I think it'll still be likely banned anyways. Same with Zebes. I don't think there's a single person in the Backroom who has actually played on those stages much.
 

x After Dawn x

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i'll ask boom at the next tourney i see him. can't believe peach's is a cp but saffron isn't though, that's crazyyyy talk

serious question though: with tourneys that go by the br ruleset, what are the rates that each starter appear? i'm guessing like 80 % of sets start with either dream land or hyrule? and between those two, which is more prevalent?
 

The Star King

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Probably depends mostly on the matchup.

Not to speak for others, but most people also seemed pretty unsure about Peach's Castle BTW. People mostly play on either DL or Hyrule for friendlies, unfortunately.
 

TANK64

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I find it hard to believe that all of you really don't know the other stages on any "strategical" level. wOw.
I'm not saying I analyze them everyday, but damn. Now they definitely should be a counterpick :) .

Luigi vs Puff is one of the worse match-ups in the game IMO.
 

ciaza

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Why isn't Saffron a CP anyway?


I believe Samus - Fox on Hyrule to be the worst match-up in the game.
 

t3h Icy

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Annnnnnyway, are we good to get started? I know the 64BR are sort of working on one also (and obviously planning to take from our awesome work and ideas), but we can still work on this and maybe collaborate at the end or something.
 

TANK64

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luigi is gay
-_____________-

Obligatory "haters gonna hate"

I believe Samus - Fox on Hyrule to be the worst match-up in the game.
I'd probably agree.
Just don't see how Star King doesn't thinks Luigi vs Puff is horrible.
Also Fox vs Link is F'd up (... a lot)

As for this thread, I think It would be cool. I probably wouldn't discuss, but I would like a new match-up thread that would be visible to me.
 

ballin4life

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disproving determinism
Easily the worst matchup Broken
Pikachu vs Samus: Pikachu out prioritizes EVERYTHING with ANYTHING. Borderline of 75-25 and 75-30. Samus has issues edgeguarding. Samus's gimp game is terrible vs Pikachu.
It's bad but Fox vs Samus is much worse IMO.

Just try approaching Broken

Fox vs Jigglypuff: Jigglypuff dies way too early. Lasers prevent approach. Fox has no issue comboing or prioritizing any floaty.
Nope.

Fox vs Samus: Samus can't camp. Fox's lasers are mad stupid. Samus has to almost solely rely on gimps and Samus isn't that good at getting them.
Only on Hyrule.

Falcon vs Samus: Samus gets simply overwhelmed. Falcon has no issues comboing floaties.
What? Falcon can't combo Samus for ****

Kirby vs Falcon: LOL U-tilt: possibly 60-40
Definitely one of the worst, but I actually like it as Falcon.

Why isn't Saffron a CP anyway?
Saffron is terrible. Huge camp factor there.

I believe Samus - Fox on Hyrule to be the worst match-up in the game.
Yup.

Fox Puff and Luigi Puff aren't that bad dammit. Also leaning towards DK Puff not being that bad, but I don't have enough experience to really say.
Yup.
 

TANK64

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Fox vs Jigglypuff: Jigglypuff dies way too early. Lasers prevent approach. Fox has no issue comboing or prioritizing any floaty.
yup

Kirby vs Falcon: LOL U-tilt: possibly 60-40
Definitely one of the worst, but I actually like it as Falcon.
Agree twice

Saffron is terrible.
nope

---- and Luigi Puff aren't that bad dammit.
nope
.
.
.
Just reminded of why I won't be taking part in this "discussion."
 
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