The New Match-Up Chart v2 - Convert to +/-? ;;>_>

[asianaussie]

Sorry, I should be saying +2, not 60:40. Force of habit.

Falcon is not 'wrecked' by Kirby. Ness is wrecked by Kirby. Falcon is merely beaten by Kirby.

 

[Battlecow]

I'm sorry, are we allowing non-American opinions now? I thought we wanted people who'd been exposed to high-level play. Hey, I can get a couple of my neighbors to sign on here and tell you guys how devastating Kirby's down-B is to Falcon's approach game, if we really need more opinions that badly.

 

[asianaussie]

I'm sorry, are we cranky today without our adrenaline shots and protein shakes? Do you want to go take a drive in that 100% glass-mirror car of yours so you can stare dreamily at your own reflection and proceed to make rude gestures at any poor non-American souls who have to veer away from your distracted, egotistic self?

Complain about fewer discussants, then complain about more discussants. Righto.

 

[Battlecow]

 

[asianaussie]

 

[Battlecow]

BTW, I hate to interrupt my trollargument with srsns, but it's a pet peeve of mine when people do the thingy you just did with the "complain about..."

I mean, obviously my objection was to the quality of the discussants. The numbers could go up without the quality being compromised.

 

[x After Dawn x]

this thread...

 

[ballin4life]

Sorry, I should be saying +2, not 60:40. Force of habit.

Falcon is not 'wrecked' by Kirby. Ness is wrecked by Kirby. Falcon is merely beaten by Kirby.

Don't see much of a difference between Falcon and Ness here ...

Also is there something wrong with protein shakes?

 

[ciaza]

I'm with ballin. Bad example aa.

 

[asianaussie]

You really think Ness vs Kirby is as good as Falcon vs Kirby on Dreamland...

Nothing wrong with them. I assume Battlecow is attempting to sculpt his body into a Captain America-type mold, so...

 

[Battlecow]

I don't need Protein shakes for that. Just a little... *ahem* super soldier serum. You know, like Barry Bonds used.

 

[ballin4life]

Bonds was all about the protein shakes ...

Although the real super serum is milk. Gallon of milk a day (GOMAD) is a real diet.

 

[The Star King]

I thought you were just doing it to be the middle ground...?

No, foolish fool, that was my personal opinion. I was just saying that my opinion happened to be the middle ground.

I swear, you've been misinterpreting everything lately.

 

[clubbadubba]

man we are having a tough time getting past kirby. Just another reason why kirby is the worst, simply the worst.

kirby falcon seems to average out to between +2 and +3 (not that I did the math), any other kirby matchups in question?

 

[Sangoku]

This thread is half-dead. Either we get more people on this or we should just stop. Also more top players should participate as they will be less likely to say wrong/inaccurate stuff.

 

[The Star King]

It's not dead, it's just that everybody has already said what they've wanted to say. We should just leave it at +2 or whatever for Kirby vs Falcon and move on.

 

[ballin4life]

Wait, so people are essentially saying Pika vs Fox is +3, Kirby vs Fox is +2, yet Kirby vs Falcon is also only +2? Really? Easy +3 or more.


Also Fox vs Mario 0 is pretty ridiculous if you ask me. That's like -3. I think it's worse than Fox vs Pika.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

This new rating system is confusing the **** out of me. Ratios were cool man.

 

[Peek~]

This new rating system is confusing the **** out of me. Ratios were cool man.

Same here

Im only here for Ness but still, what is this

 

[ballin4life]

Ratios are fine when they describe winning percentages.

They are confusing as **** when they don't.

I made tons of posts thinking 60:40 meant 60% to win, only to find out that that's not what people were saying. Then we had the whole debate where other people said that at equal skill levels "a Samus will NEVER beat a Pikachu" which is completely wrong.

If ratios are not win percentages, then they are just arbitrary numbers made up to describe "small advantage" "medium advantage" etc. Just like +1,+2, etc. In fact, there's a handy little conversion formula - take the ratio, subtract 50, divide by 5.

 

[The Star King]

Also Fox vs Mario 0 is pretty ridiculous if you ask me. That's like -3. I think it's worse than Fox vs Pika.

lolno

I made tons of posts thinking 60:40 meant 60% to win, only to find out that that's not what people were saying. Then we had the whole debate where other people said that at equal skill levels "a Samus will NEVER beat a Pikachu" which is completely wrong.

We've been over this. If your results have that much variance you're inconsistent as ****.

 

[Battlecow]

I liked ratios too, sigh.

OWELL, just remember that ever +1 is 5 points in the ratio system and you should be fine.

Thank you, ballin, I think kirbyfalc is easily +3 as well. My, what a sensible young man.

 

[ciaza]

I preferred my ratios. Dw ballin, if we do go back to ratios there's a handy little conversion formula - take your number, times by 5 and add 50.

I got confused as s*it when we didn't use ratios and apparently I'm not alone.

But I'm whinging like a b*tch now so I'm going to drop and just try to get used to it.

Fox - Mario in my opinion is about even, maybe slight advantage Fox.

 

[ballin4life]

lolno

Fox combos Pika like a million times better than Fox combos Mario. Mario and Pika both gimp Fox really well. That's my reasoning.

And honestly I almost feel like Mario's recovery is better than Pika's against Fox, but I understand if someone disagrees with that.

We've been over this. If your results have that much variance you're inconsistent as ****.

If you look at my videos, you can find some of my Fox losing to Darth Rancorous's Samus. I'd like to think my skill level is at least equal to his. According to you though, I should NEVER lose in this matchup? That just doesn't make sense.

I preferred my ratios. Dw ballin, if we do go back to ratios there's a handy little conversion formula - take your number, times by 5 and add 50.

"Ratio" (I put it in quotes because THEY AREN'T REALLY RATIOS) supporters were the ones complaining that +1/+2/etc was hard to think about.

My argument is not that I can't make this conversion. My argument is that using ratios is misleading as ****. We've already had multiple people, including myself, interpret the ratios as win percentages.

I got confused as s*it when we didn't use ratios and apparently I'm not alone.

But there's nothing to be confused about if you just think in terms of ratios (which is inexplicably more comfortable for you apparently) and then use the handy conversion formula.

I mean, the ratios don't even mean anything so what's the big deal?

Fox - Mario in my opinion is about even, maybe slight advantage Fox.

I disagree. Fox just doesn't have many tools against Mario and has no room for error at all.

 

[ciaza]

I honestly don't care anymore. It's apparent that either system is subjective. The only argument against ratios is that it can be misinterpreted as a W/L ratio, but it's blatantly obvious now to everyone who gives input in this thread that that is not the case. You can convert between either easily.

 

[Peek~]

bad post, did not mean to hit enter

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

Fox vs mario is def fox favour.

 

[Sangoku]

According to ballin fox should be low tier

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

If you look at my videos, you can find some of my Fox losing to Darth Rancorous's Samus.

Do you play the matchup properly? I always see you approaching vs. Samus on Hyrule.
Why approach a Samus with Fox, just f-air and laser ALL DAY, sure it's stupid but it is the matchup. It is why Fox is so good on Hyrule (and why Samus has a much easier time outside of Hyrule)

Matchup ratios are hypothetical. No one plays them perfectly and some people are bad or really good at certian matchups. (It is why for many people there is no point in making matchup charts)

 

[clubbadubba]

As Richard Pryor would say: this aint dead yet mother *$^^#*& !

Icy what do you say we just move on to cfalc, I think people may have more opinions on that (battlecow get in on this).

 

[Battlecow]

I'm all over the doug matchups

so is everyone because everyone plays doug 'cause he's the best.

We'll resume the kirbydoug discussion there (IT'S AT LEAST -3)

 

[Lit]

Great match up guide, first time seeing this...

 

[clubbadubba]

Icy you alive? Whatever I'm gonna move on to falcon, people join in please?

My three changes to the current match-up chart:

falcon vs mario is -1, too much gimp

falcon vs dk is +1, again because of gimping on dl

falcon vs link is at least +3, maybe +4

 

[Battlecow]

Agree on the -1 to mario and the +1 to DK.

I'm leaning towards +3 to link and maybe +3 to sammy as well.

also, -4 vs Kirby. or AT LEAST -3. That's the biggest one.

 

[The Star King]

Agree on the -1 to mario and the +1 to DK.

No to Mario. IDK about DK but leaning towards no to that as well.

I'm actually leaning towards Falcon being at least +1 on Mario, but I know how much the community loves to overrate Mario's match-ups, so I'll be willing to take even I guess lol

I'm leaning towards +3 to link and maybe +3 to sammy as well.

Yes to Link. I think Samus could be +2.

also, -4 vs Kirby. or AT LEAST -3. That's the biggest one.

So you think Kirby vs Falcon is worse than Falcon vs Link on Dreamland? OK buddy.

 

[ciaza]

Falcon - Mario is even or Mario's favour in my opinion. Mario has more trouble getting combos going at lower percents but arguably has an easier time finishing his opponent off once he gets them going, thanks to Upsmash and an easier time edgeguarding falcon's poor recovery. Mario also can gets some quick gimps in with throws>dairs.

 

[Battlecow]

No to Mario. IDK about DK but leaning towards no to that as well.

I'm actually leaning towards Falcon being at least +1 on Mario, but I know how much the community loves to overrate Mario's match-ups, so I'll be willing to take even I guess lol

u mus be jokin

Doug can't combo mario for ****. Mario's gimps on doug are easier than your mom (fthrow-dair HURR DURR I GOOD). Doug has a REALLY hard time edgeguarding mario.

IDK about DK. I might just be bad at that matchup. DK can do silly things to doug with throws and then up-B gimps though.

So you think Kirby vs Falcon is worse than Falcon vs Link on Dreamland? OK buddy.

You think that Pika vs fox is worse than Kirby vs Falcon? OK buddy.

 

[ballin4life]

I'm actually leaning towards Falcon being at least +1 on Mario, but I know how much the community loves to overrate Mario's match-ups, so I'll be willing to take even I guess lol

Mario is underrated as hell. His recovery is good and he's good at gimping so he's especially good on DL.

I think I'm pretty good at Falcon vs Mario though. I like it better than Fox vs Mario.

So you think Kirby vs Falcon is worse than Falcon vs Link on Dreamland? OK buddy.

I would agree that Kirby vs Falcon is worse than Falcon vs Link on DL. Maybe the same.

Falcon - Mario is even or Mario's favour in my opinion. Mario has more trouble getting combos going at lower percents but arguably has an easier time finishing his opponent off once he gets them going, thanks to Upsmash and an easier time edgeguarding falcon's poor recovery. Mario also can gets some quick gimps in with throws>dairs.

Disagree except on the gimps part. Falcon can combo Mario ok if you're good. Mario can uair chain but that's kinda situational since uair isn't a good approach for Mario usually.

 

[ciaza]

I never said Falcon can't combo Mario, but it's rare to see a proper 0-death. You can lead into a gimp opportunity sure, but Mario has a great recovery game making it tricky for Falcon to edgeguard a lot of the time.

Uairs are situational but you should be seeing them in the match-up, pushing Falcon off a platform and going to a ff uair or something.

 

[Battlecow]

Yeah, falcon can combo mario, but it's not like on fastfallers where grab=death almost every time at mid percents, and often at low percents.