The New Match-Up Chart v2 - Convert to +/-? ;;>_>

[ballin4life]

ratios are confusing because it seems like they mean win percentages. it's really that simple.

 

[t3h Icy]

Why does everyone like to invent science out of numbers?

Well whatever, if people still want +/- etc, I'll change it tomorrow and we can try to continue.

 

[asianaussie]

Whatever conveys information the best.

The backroom and its leaders are tired, I think we'll wait for another list to come out and then add little 'mini-guides' to playing each character in each matchup. For any backroom members reading this, continue to contribute here, it's more active, there is a better collator and it relies less on an obscure subforum.

Do continue to put in tidbits of information for the Fox/Pika miniguides.

 

[jimmyjoe]

It's been a while since we've had any debate on character matchups because we've been so hung up on what system to use. The ratio system seemed to be working fine, but I'm more in favor of picking a system and moving on, than in fighting to keep it a ratio based system, so...

Whatever conveys information the best.

The backroom and its leaders are tired, I think we'll wait for another list to come out and then add little 'mini-guides' to playing each character in each matchup. For any backroom members reading this, continue to contribute here, it's more active, there is a better collator and it relies less on an obscure subforum.

Do continue to put in tidbits of information for the Fox/Pika miniguides.

Where will these mini guides be located?

 

[asianaussie]

We'll release them pretty soon.

The Pika ones are essentially done, I (or Surri) will post them in the character subforum.

 

[t3h Icy]

Sorry, a couple things came up; I'll try to do this when I can.

 

[The Star King]

For any backroom members reading this, continue to contribute here, it's more active, there is a better collator and it relies less on an obscure subforum.

I am very amused right now.

 

[asianaussie]

I'm fine with taking that blow as long as you're contributing.

 

[clubbadubba]

okay then, so plus/minus? cool.

anyway lets get this going, i think kirby/falcon is +3. Its one of the few matchups where its tough for falcon to get a grab or usmash because of that stupid utilt, plus z2d combos by kirby and very easy edgeguards by kirby. even if falcon gets a combo started, kirby is not easy to combo or at least requires some very creative moves to keep it going.

I'd say kirby/link is also +3, though maybe even +2. I've played this matchup more than any other one online (cuz i almost always start with link and guess who most people start with), and even though its not great for link, there are many worse matchups. As link I would rather play against kirby than: Pika, Fox, DK, Yoshi, Mario, ness, falcon (not in any order). The fact that kirby can gimp link is not too big, cuz everyone can gimp link. But link can space and do a lot of damage with projectiles and has good priority over kirby if he's smart. kirby not having a horizontal throw makes this matchup not too bad for link as well.

 

[Mahie]

I'd say Kirby has a +2 advantage over Falcon. He can just rack up damage very easily, cover a lot of Falcon's options and make him predictable with his utilt, and edgeguard him very well.
If Falcon manages to get a combo started, however, he can hurt Kirby a lot. Fthrow Fair Uair UpB works very well from 0% and can get him an easy kill on DreamLand.

 

[clubbadubba]

I changed my mind, I'd say kirby v link is +3 or +4.

Come on guys! We're only on the 3rd character, are people done with this already?

 

[Sangoku]

Mahie: isn't it impossible to fair someone with good DI?

 

[Mahie]

I don't know, it's doable but it's pretty hard, and falcon can still read the DI and get the second hit in I think, someone needs to confirm that, but I usually get the combo in when I try it.

 

[Sangoku]

Hmm when someone DI away I'm limited with the momentum and I always fail the second hit. Especially against maddy, not sure about others.

 

[Olikus]

utilt too good, kirby is +3 against falcon.

 

[Tech_EDGE]

edit...........

 

[ciaza]

I'd give a small - moderate advantage to Kirby. Maybe a +1 or +2. Falcon does have combos and speed but Kirby's defense game can feel impregnable at times. On top of that Kirby can arguably get the kill from a combo on falcon more often that if the situation was reversed. Maybe not 0-death wise, but setting up for an easy gimp.

 

[Tech_EDGE]

edit...........

 

[ciaza]

eh, maybe if the Kirby is standing around uptilting all day, but it gets harder when kirby starts chucking out the bairs, air-camps > dair or w/e.

 

[Tech_EDGE]

edit...........

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

Bairing a wall of uptilts? Are you crazy? That makes for a dead falcon!

 

[asianaussie]

but boom, everything is made possible through the magic of theorycraft!

 

[Mahie]

control the center of the stage so kirby can't air camp

if he tries to air camp, uair is again useful in preventing that

Kirby's Dair > Falcon's Uair.

Like I said, Falcon hurts Kirby. But getting the first hit is really, really difficult, and getting a hit from which you can start a combo is even harder.

 

[The Star King]

Kirby's Dair > Falcon's Uair.

I think they trade.

 

[Battlecow]

"finding a space in the Utilts" is hard against a good kirby

And kirby gimps falcon like mother****ing Tonya Harding, whereas doug has a relatively hard time against kirby's recov.

I'd say +3

 

[Tech_EDGE]

edit...........

 

[Battlecow]

You mus' be trippin'.

IDK I can't communicate the matchup in one or two points. Like, I could say "Kirby's Dair slaughters doug from laughably low %s" and you could say "Doug has some very effective combos that he can use if he's smart," and those would both be true, but they don't prove anything.

I feel like the matchup is much, much worse than -1. All of my match experience has led me to believe this.

 

[clubbadubba]

kirby is falcons worst matchup, hands down. kirby has the advantage in:

combos-- falcon can combo kirby ok, but kirby can combo to a higher percent and get falcon out of range of recovery.

edgeguards-- falcon has to recovery low (kirby dtilt or spike), or try to pull some cheese and recover over top and behind kirby (good players should not have a problem with this). Kirby can recover low (falcon dtilt or spike), or float high and come in with a dair, which either beats falcon uair or trades with it.

approaches-- all of falcons approaches are too easily countered by utilt. Kirby doesnt have to stand around utilting either, but simply pull a dash pivot utilt at the right time. Yes falcon can poke holes in it, but if the players are evenly matched, kirbys moves are just better and give him the advantage.

TechEdge, try doing some kirby v falcon with someone of your skill level and let us know how it goes. Maybe you're right, but I'd like to see some in game support because from all my experience in watching and playing, kirby destroys falcon. Matchup is +3.

 

[The Star King]

Most people seem to be saying +1 or +3, so I guess I'm the middle ground at +2. Can't say I've played this match-up that much from either side, though.

 

[Battlecow]

Only tech edge has called it +1 so far.

 

[The Star King]

Ciaza said +1 or +2.

So that's one and a half people vs three people.

CLOSE ENOUGH

 

[ciaza]

I'd put final vote for +2.

 

[Battlecow]

Yuck. That is so wrong it makes me sick. We're seriously going to say that fox does as well against kirby on DL as kirby does on doug? It's ****ing stupid. Kirby ***** doug, everyone knows it, only problem is we only have 5 people in this thread.

I MAD.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

kirby vs falcon is def +16 for kirby, cmon now.

 

[ciaza]

I don't understand this stupid +/- system at all, so I'm probably wrong.

I miss my ratios.

What I'm trying to convey is that Kirby - Falcon is 70:30. I thought each + was an increment of 10.

 

[Battlecow]

No, it's +5 for each +/- increment. I was merely thinking of 65-35, but if I were to speak my true extremist mind, I'd go with 70-30 (or, as it's called in +/-, +4) as well.

SO. we've got 4 for +3 or greater and 1 for +1. CHANGE IT BACK.

 

[The Star King]

SO. we've got 4 for +3 or greater and 1 for +1. CHANGE IT BACK.

I said +2. What am I, chopped liver?

 

[asianaussie]

Not even chopped. Ground.

70:30 o.o

lol no, 60:40 or so, I would say Kirby Link on Dreamland is barely 70:30

 

[Battlecow]

I said +2. What am I, chopped liver?

I thought you were just doing it to be the middle ground...?

 

[Mahie]

I said +2 and I stick with it.