The *NEW* DDD BBR Matchup Discussion Thread

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Recently the Brawl Backroom has unveiled a new match chart that uses a slightly new format to define matchups. Here is the link for all of those who have not looked at it yet:

The New BBR MU Thread

Basically it stopped using ratios and started using a sort of point system instead:

-4: (close to) unwinnable
-3: large disadvantage/hard countered
-2: medium disadvantage
-1: small disadvantage
0: even
+1: small advantage
+2: medium advantage
+3: large advantage/hard counter
+4: (close to) unloseable

So what do our MUs look like?




-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
+1:
+2:
+3
+4:





With the creation of this new matchup chart and this thread I am hoping we can all rediscuss our matchups and whether we agree or disagree and why. We can all vote on which matchups we would like to discuss first. It's time to bring our boards into 2011!

 

[CO18]

Eh, Ness and Lucario are just a small advantange, I think zss is -1. Dunno why we would lose to pit lol. Ill actually post about stuff later

 

[Coney]

i think ness is a +2, i think lucario is only a +2 because of the new usmash thing, and i have NO IDEA why they think we lose to pit, lmfao

are those the only MUs that seem wonky to you?

oh yeah, and zss might only be a -1--i thought it was before i played nick, and then reverted to -2 after i played him, but i might have been just selling myself short. i have no idea how i feel about it, tbh...feels like a -1.5 or something :/

 

[Laem]

Fairly sure MK is tougher than ICs
until ppl start usin cg usmash i'd say luc is +1
WHY IS FALCON HARDER THAN ROB LOOOOOOOOOOOOL

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Things I disagree with about this list:

- I feel like ICs are -2
- Maybe I'm like the only DDD that feels this way but I feel like this shouls only be a -1.
- Should be a -1
- I feel like its a 0
I've played bad Wario, average Warios, and Blue Rogue and Krystedez. I feel like this one should be a +2. But I can see it being only being a +1.
Why do we lose to him lol. I'd say its a 0.
Without Small Step or Infinite it should be +2.


More later. Just wanted to cover the ones that really caught my attention.

 

[7Claus]

In my opinion it should be like this: (the number in ()'s is how much I've changed from the BBR list)


-3: (-1)
-2: (+1)
-1: (+1) (+1)
0: (+1) (+1)
+1: (+1)
+2: (+1) (-1) (-1) (-2)
+3: (-1)
+4:


Perhaps i'm just exaggerating MK, but going by the definitions I don't think it's just a medium disavantadge.
I also don't know why the BBR list considers infinites when they are banned almost everywhere.

 

[Coney]

claus, please remember that we didn't make separate matchups for with or without infinites--they're assumed to be in. this is why those three characters (bowser/luigi/dk) seem like such a bad MU.

otherwise, i actually agree with most of your points!

except one big one. sonic. i can see why you'd think that, but...just thinking about the timeout potential makes me sweat. we're so slow, both on the ground and in the air...yuck.

 

[7Claus]

Why didn't you guys assumed the infinites to be out instead? It's easier to assume that with infinites on the MU is +4

And I'm not sure about Sonic, I've only played him a few times and there's not many videos of good Dededes against good Sonics so I might be wrong, but (theorycraft time) I think that if Dedede also plays gay and aiming the timeout the MU becomes way easier. Dedede CG + UpSmash that does a lot of damage and if he plays ultra defensive Sonic has to rely on grabs, but for every grab he misses it's a CG.

 

[Coney]

to be honest, i DO think both mario and luigi have a snowball's chance if the infinite is off. i hesitate to call it UNWINNABLE, simply because the infinite doesn't even work on them (iirc) until, like, at least 110% anyway? bowser and DK have absolutely no chance, neither does samus imo but several samuses and one ddd actually said samus was only +1 for us (!!!)

i laughed a little

anyway sonic i'm not really sure about but i'm almost certain it's only +1. i've played speed a bunch, but he's very narrow-minded in terms of his matchups and they were only friendlies, and even if they weren't he's in my crew and a big softie so i doubt he'd go the whole shabang and try to time me out anyway

i'll get a chance to play espy @ whobo3, i hope. will report back then.

 

[Flayl]

Well, what klaw hopping Bowsers have you played? I think it's a little off to say Mario and luigi have a chance while Bowser doesn't.

 

[Coney]

i played kingkong at apex in pools

i just don't think bowser's mobile enough, but then again i've only played one ever

 

[Steam]

I honestly feel D3 is a -3 now that d3 can kill early....

Lucario really has nothing going for him once D3 is past like 60...

D3 can just keep it simple and shut lucario down :/

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

You still have a spammable projectile and much faster moves with transcendent priority. I can totally see why you'd say that but Lucario can wreck us when he is inside our range and he has the tools to keep us out of his range.Its just a giant spacing fight but Lucario has much more to lose in the exchange. But Lucario wins the close up fight and AS helps to an extent. I think +3 is a bit exaggerated. +2 is more accurate.

 

[7Claus]

What TC said. Plus, Upsmash doesn't kill until 120~130% and Lucario is not THAT easy to grab...

 

[Coney]

lucario can combo ddd from 0-70, every time

that's

a big deal

 

[Flayl]

i played kingkong at apex in pools

i just don't think bowser's mobile enough, but then again i've only played one ever

That's enough Bowser for a lifetime Do you remember how one-sided it was?

 

[Coney]

pretty one-sided...he beat me a game though on brinstar, i had a pretty big lead and he bowsercided me

the main thing is, getting grabs wasn't at all difficult. this isn't anything against kingkong, it's just the character. from what i remember, i thought of it a lot like the DK matchup, except at least DK has the range and the mixups to get away from grabs (mixing up landing with sideb or bair or just upb'ing away), while bowser seems less able. dk can downb, ftilt, dtilt, all have pretty good range--bowser's dtilt is extremely laggy and punishable, his ftilt isn't long enough, and from what i hear, his one and only trick in the matchup is being able to reach with fsmash if ddd ftilts incorrectly. i dunno, it just feels awful. he has upb oos which is good, and it might be the best way to not get grabbed, but...i just don't see it.

i didn't infinite (i don't even think it was legal but even if not, i wouldn't have done it, it's stupid)

kingkong's a great player obviously, and maybe it's partly because, to my knowledge, there are few ddds (if any) in canada, so maybe he's just inexperienced. but that matchup just seems literally unwinnable with the infinite/smallstep, and just barely possible without.

 

[Flayl]

Yeah Bowser shouldn't be tilting against Dedede except on his landing. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

 

[Steam]

neither luc or D3 can really camp each other... whoever's losing has to approach really...

and D3 outspaces luc in the air and on the ground... Luc has to get in and hope he doesn't get grabbed. The only spacing he can really do is juuuuuust outside of D3's grab range, but all he really has from there is Ftilt...

and luc can juggle D3 til 70 yeah... and then gets walled out. and if lucario makes a single mistake he takes 30-40% and gets put offstage where bair ***** him...

All lucario really had going for him was D3's lack of killpower but with the Dthrow>Upsmash in play it's pretty much a lolmatchup :/

 

[Coney]

i've thought the matchup was only +1 for us for a while, and recent results have only proven it. every ddd has lost to a lucario at this point except myself, that's all the evidence i need to see that it isn't a terrible matchup.

 

[Steam]

i've thought the matchup was only +1 for us for a while, and recent results have only proven it. every ddd has lost to a lucario at this point except myself, that's all the evidence i need to see that it isn't a terrible matchup.

have you been using Dthrow>Upsmash? I heard D3s weren't...

all I remember about top D3s losing to Lucarios was Co18 losing to both Zucco and Junebug. But either June went MK or Zucco went falco, I don't remember which one didn't use luc.

and I know Atomsk beat Trela at pound....

edit: and Trela beat vex... though I don't know if vex's D3 is any good. lol my sig

 

[Coney]

atomsk and co18 have both lost to junebug

vex has lost to trela

atomsk beat trela in a close set

i just barely beat junebug in our set

it's definitely not a +3, is the main point. there is absolutely no way ddd is a hard counter for lucario.

Yeah Bowser shouldn't be tilting against Dedede except on his landing. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

lol forgot to address this

no problem! i'm certainly willing to bend on my idea of the MU if i ever find a really talented bowser, but he's so difficult to play i don't see that happening. remember, my perception might be tinted by playing the best mario/luigi in the nation on a regular basis as well...

 

[Steam]

have you guys been using the Dthrow>upsmash though? It really is a matchup breaking thing because it basically makes it snake that can afford to jump, less stage control, and a chain grab on us.

 

[Coney]

oh, sorry, forgot to put on that point

no, we haven't...i agree that it would definitely make killing luc easier, as that's one of our hardest issues in the matchup, but it still only feels like a +2 to me with the new find. without it, i think it's only +1. neither results nor my own experience give me any reason to think it's any worse than +2

 

[Steam]

I think it takes it from like a 1.5 to 3ish... If lucario dies first (which can happen very easily now) he basically loses. before he just had avoid jumping over D3 at kill%... now if he's anywhere near D3 he's at risk... and he can't even shield and be safe from it...

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I do agree that very few D3s are using Up Smash out of Down Throw. I'm one of the few that actually uses it but there are no Sonics here...only one Lucario that stopped going offline...no other D3s. I feel like I got gyped lol.

We have so many gay tools that we just don't abuse...this needs to change. I still think that even with that little gimmick it turns D3 vs Lucario into 2.5 at the worst and even that's debatable.

 

[Lovecraft]

I think it's a solid 2 because of the survivability d3 has compared to luc, yes luc has nice combos he can get off and d3 can chain grab. But d3 has just as good killing power with more survivability and a better recovery. Then again, I've never faced a decent luc, I've only watched a few d3s v luc.

 

[Steam]

the recoveries are about the same in this matchup...

and D3 kills much better now.

 

[Lovecraft]

But lucario's recovery is easy to break compared to d3s that has super armor for the beginning of it. Plus luc's has a good amount of startup lag that d3 can punish with a nice bair. And, from what I've seen luc and dedede seem to be able to Ko each other fairly easily, then again I've never seen another dedede do d-throw to up smash which does make it significantly easier.

 

[Steam]

If you're just talking about upBs D3s is better... but his landing with it is still punishable and the move itself is somewhat limited.

but in the air D3 is just kinda a duck and is very vulnerable to pressure from lucario.

 

[Zwarm]

I do agree that very few D3s are using Up Smash out of Down Throw. I'm one of the few that actually uses it but there are no Sonics here...only one Lucario that stopped going offline...no other D3s. I feel like I got gyped lol.

We have so many gay tools that we just don't abuse...this needs to change. I still think that even with that little gimmick it turns D3 vs Lucario into 2.5 at the worst and even that's debatable.

Don't worry, there are plenty of Lucarios in IL now, and I'm pretty sure all of them are coming to GSS. You're gonna be up smash happy.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I do agree that very few D3s are using Up Smash out of Down Throw. I'm one of the few that actually uses it but there are no Sonics here...only one Lucario that stopped going offline...no other D3s. I feel like I got gyped lol.

We have so many gay tools that we just don't abuse...this needs to change. I still think that even with that little gimmick it turns D3 vs Lucario into 2.5 at the worst and even that's debatable.

Myth?

+3 for DDD after playing it myself is...too harsh, it's a bad MU but not that bad.

@Coney: 0-70 isn't always gonna happen, although Lucario's should try to follow up really well at low %, especially in this MU. They just can't get greedy.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Don't worry, there are plenty of Lucarios in IL now, and I'm pretty sure all of them are coming to GSS. You're gonna be up smash happy.

Watch me NOT play any of them LOL

Myth?

Yeah he lives like 10 minutes from me lol. We would train at my place from time to time.

 

[Pandu!]

Why aren't d3's using dthrow to usmash again?
I used it in a couple friendlies against a lucario or two at pound; our grab game becomes a whole lot more threatening and while it was only friendlies, I think it made the matchup easier to win.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Because there are few DDDs and fewer people dedicated enough to learn the harder technical aspects of our character even though this isnt that hard to do..

 

[Zwarm]

Watch me NOT play any of them LOL

Not gonna lie, that would be hilarious.

 

[Tmacc]

These are the MUs I'm confused on:

-3, while is -2? I think they should both be -2. Coney, you said the reason was "if the ICs never drops the grab, it's minus three." If that's the case, shouldn't alll IC MU ratios with characters like Link, Mario, PT also be -3? I feel as though we do MUCH better than many characters in this situation, because we can gimp them, and quickly take a stock with one separation. The worst part IMO isnt the grabs, it's that in the air battle, uair racks SO easily, and if they read the airdodge, it can lead INTO a grab. I don't know though, I only live by two really good ICs players in Hylian and Future . But my main point is if ICs are -3, then MK is at least that...if MK is -2, ICs are no worse than -2...my opinion.

-1? How does that calculate. I haven't played any good Pits, but I don't see how we could, in theory, lose this. Has anyone played a good Pit and can clarify?

-1? I will never agree with this, even though you've already explained the reasons behind it.

+3? Really? I think ROB is +1 at most. I've always felt that matchup was way over exaggerated...

+1?? How in the world is this MU not even. He can camp us, kill us, rack up damage quickly...if the MU is even, Snake should definitely be.

same reasoning as the above argument...if peach is even, Marth should be, too. He has amazing tools to zone us, and a good Marth shouldn't get grabbed very often. He's hard to gimp, quick, punishes SO well, and has amazing ground and air games. Can someone explain this to me??

Even with the upsmash on , I will still always feel this MU is even. He has no problem killing us, comboing us, and zoning us. He has tons of good tool, an amazing roll, and even out camps us. Seriously, is at +1 while Lucario is +2?? I just don't see it...he has all of her tools, and many many more. Not to mention that top Lucarios beat top all the time. Therefore, that ratio just seems off to me.

 

[Fuujin]

Yeah someone care to explain why people think Zelda does good against Dedede?

 

[Coney]

hi todd!

lemme go over each of these individually...i think you'll find a pattern in my answers. on the whole though, i agree with a lot of what you take issue with, but i'm sure you already knew that. i'm not happy with the way ddd turned out, but being someone that absolutely HATES theorycraft, i rarely argued against people. i don't have the patience or ability to have a lengthy discourse with someone about how ROB gets destroyed or ABSOLUTELY destroyed by ddd, it doesn't matter anyway. people have their own conceptions of matchups and everyone's going to find fault one way or another.

btw in the ICs matchup i don't think the problem are grabs OR uair; it's a well-managed desync'd blizzard wall

-3, while is -2? I think they should both be -2. Coney, you said the reason was "if the ICs never drops the grab, it's minus three." If that's the case, shouldn't alll IC MU ratios with characters like Link, Mario, PT also be -3? I feel as though we do MUCH better than many characters in this situation, because we can gimp them, and quickly take a stock with one separation. The worst part IMO isnt the grabs, it's that in the air battle, uair racks SO easily, and if they read the airdodge, it can lead INTO a grab. I don't know though, I only live by two really good ICs players in Hylian and Future . But my main point is if ICs are -3, then MK is at least that...if MK is -2, ICs are no worse than -2...my opinion.

i completely agree. it was back room politics that did this. most ICs said it was -3 and i was outnumbered in thinking it was just -2. meanwhile, the MKs wouldn't bend to -3 for us for some reason, they said "it's not that bad." morons.

-1? How does that calculate. I haven't played any good Pits, but I don't see how we could, in theory, lose this. Has anyone played a good Pit and can clarify?

nobody's ever played one, lmfao

the reason we can lose, in theory, is his safeness, ease of hitting the bair (our slow aerial movement), he has a CG, and without an LGL (assumed for the ratios) he can just plank all day. talk to krystedez, he lead the pit panel. i just conceded on this one too.

-1? I will never agree with this, even though you've already explained the reasons behind it.

conceded to judo.

+3? Really? I think ROB is +1 at most. I've always felt that matchup was way over exaggerated...

ROB was a compromise, because the stupid ROBs said it was -4 for them, unwinnable. i said it was +2 for us, which i still think it is. it's definitely a counter, better than +1 for us, but it's not +3 OR +4.

for ness, it was after some pretty lengthy consideration. even so, i think it's only a +2.

+1?? How in the world is this MU not even. He can camp us, kill us, rack up damage quickly...if the MU is even, Snake should definitely be.

I KNOW, RIGHT? razer gave it a -3 when he first posted ratios. despite the fact that now three top ddds have lost to three top snakes (atomsk lost to razer, co lost to fatal, i lost to mvd), people STILL have this notion that ddd beats snake. again, idiots.

same reasoning as the above argument...if peach is even, Marth should be, too. He has amazing tools to zone us, and a good Marth shouldn't get grabbed very often. He's hard to gimp, quick, punishes SO well, and has amazing ground and air games. Can someone explain this to me??

i actually stand by the +1 here. one mistake leads to a grab leads to a big chunk of his stock, or even his entire stock with the edgeguard opportunity. absolutely think this one is in our advantage, if only slightly.

Even with the upsmash on , I will still always feel this MU is even. He has no problem killing us, comboing us, and zoning us. He has tons of good tool, an amazing roll, and even out camps us. Seriously, is at +1 while Lucario is +2?? I just don't see it...he has all of her tools, and many many more. Not to mention that top Lucarios beat top all the time. Therefore, that ratio just seems off to me.

i definitely don't think luc/ddd is EVEN...i think it's in our advantage only slightly without the usmash chain, and we function as a counter with it. against lucario one of the hardest things to do is actually kill him--killing him at 130% is HUGE, especially from a grab, as it inhibits him from ever entering his SUPER DUPER SUPER SAIYAN MODE. standing by +2...it's just that most ddds are only playing the matchup at +1, myself included.

Yeah someone care to explain why people think Zelda does good against Dedede?

nope!

(outdated matchup knowledge, and i'm in no position to question it. i hate theorycraft)

 

[Omni]

i completely agree. it was back room politics that did this. most ICs said it was -3 and i was outnumbered in thinking it was just -2. meanwhile, the MKs wouldn't bend to -3 for us for some reason, they said "it's not that bad." morons.

leaking?

insulting?