Rubberbandman
Smash Champion
Im going to say it once more here Lux.
Put.out.a.video.
Put.out.a.video.
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The NEW and IMPROVED chaingrab guide for the 2011 IC Main that doesn't like tripping
- Thread starter DeLux
- Start date
kackamee
Smash Master
Is it true that Snake and ROB can DI out of a hobble? (DI so they don't get hit by the Ice block?)
Deathfox30
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2010
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- 483
I'm pretty sure you can't DI a footstool. They could probably DI the ice block enough that we couldn't possibly regrab them, but having that many SDI inputs in such a short window isn't humanly possible.
Rubberbandman
Smash Champion
Its happened to me once before vs Snake. But only once.
kackamee
Smash Master
Same here, but I just convinced myself that I messed up.
But it came up in a conversation and I was pretty sure that they couldn't but idk.
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
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I'm not going to test that hobble stuff since I've pretty much rules out myself from using hobbling except as a back up plan
However, fun fact: the nbthrow spacing is much looser than I thought as well as the window for regrab. In fact, it's so lax that I'm able to manipulate the regrab to force an incidental nana grab (similar to when you don't shield buffer during a pbthrow > ndthrow.
By Lax, I'm talking 5-6 frame window. Which is about as easy as (1-2 frames less than) hobbling :D
However, fun fact: the nbthrow spacing is much looser than I thought as well as the window for regrab. In fact, it's so lax that I'm able to manipulate the regrab to force an incidental nana grab (similar to when you don't shield buffer during a pbthrow > ndthrow.
By Lax, I'm talking 5-6 frame window. Which is about as easy as (1-2 frames less than) hobbling :D
Kaptain
Smash Ace
I found the best way to practice this throw is on a bowser to get your movement right and get your pivoting practice. From there start dropping in character size.
Mr. game and watch
Smash Master
Has anyone gotten very consistent with this yet, and/or used it in tourney?
Deathfox30
Smash Journeyman
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- 483
I can do this consistently against everyone except Lucas. It's easier than B throw > D throw IMO, you just need to practice.Has anyone gotten very consistent with this yet, and/or used it in tourney?
I've tested this today.
I only tried it a few times on Marth but it wasn't too hard.
However, I'm not that fond of the fthrow from Popo to Nana. So I thought about it and came to following conclusion:
The thing is, there's no point in learning this CG if you're not able to keep the amount of failure below the average tripping rate.
Now the chance of tripping from a dash is 1/100. You need about 11 bthrows (normal bthrow - dthrow - cg) from zero to death. Now that doesn't mean that there's a 10% chance of tripping but it does mean that there is eleven times a 1/100 chance of tripping.
Tl:dr: If you're not able to do this CG with a successrate between 95 and 100 percent, there is no point in doing it, since the amount of mess-ups is greater than the amount of tripping fails. (assuming you can do the bthrow - dthrow 100% without tripping)
I'm sure that on some characters this is the better choice since its not more difficult than bthrow - dthrow or bthrow - fthrow. But on some characters where the fthrow from popo to nana is tough, it's better you stick with whatever's working for you.
I only tried it a few times on Marth but it wasn't too hard.
However, I'm not that fond of the fthrow from Popo to Nana. So I thought about it and came to following conclusion:
The thing is, there's no point in learning this CG if you're not able to keep the amount of failure below the average tripping rate.
Now the chance of tripping from a dash is 1/100. You need about 11 bthrows (normal bthrow - dthrow - cg) from zero to death. Now that doesn't mean that there's a 10% chance of tripping but it does mean that there is eleven times a 1/100 chance of tripping.
Tl:dr: If you're not able to do this CG with a successrate between 95 and 100 percent, there is no point in doing it, since the amount of mess-ups is greater than the amount of tripping fails. (assuming you can do the bthrow - dthrow 100% without tripping)
I'm sure that on some characters this is the better choice since its not more difficult than bthrow - dthrow or bthrow - fthrow. But on some characters where the fthrow from popo to nana is tough, it's better you stick with whatever's working for you.
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
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Actually, the chances of tripping would be twice as high. You have to factor in both the Nana Dash AND the Nana pivot grab. So the probability you would trip every throw would be closer to 1/50 or 60 instead of 1/100 to 120.
I'm bad at probability. And I haven't been able to confirm that actually the trip rate because remember reading ICs trip rate is higher everywhere but on ice. But so much of what I've read to start my career from "reputable sources" (ie not EA), has been so wrong it's been appalling so I don't know for sure.
But I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers came back that 1/6th of the time you could expect to trip :\
Which is once per set. Which could be the difference between winning and losing if you only need six grabs ideally
Assuming it's 1/50 per chance of tripping. Every 10 throws you have approx 81.8% chance of not tripping if I do my math right lol
So if you can accurately CG higher than that rate of 4/5 converted with the new CG, learn the CG.
TLDR - if you like finishing your CGs, learn the new one imo
I'm bad at probability. And I haven't been able to confirm that actually the trip rate because remember reading ICs trip rate is higher everywhere but on ice. But so much of what I've read to start my career from "reputable sources" (ie not EA), has been so wrong it's been appalling so I don't know for sure.
But I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers came back that 1/6th of the time you could expect to trip :\
Which is once per set. Which could be the difference between winning and losing if you only need six grabs ideally
Assuming it's 1/50 per chance of tripping. Every 10 throws you have approx 81.8% chance of not tripping if I do my math right lol
So if you can accurately CG higher than that rate of 4/5 converted with the new CG, learn the CG.
TLDR - if you like finishing your CGs, learn the new one imo
you have to mind one thing though
1/100 chance twice doesnt equal 2/100. Why not? I'll explain.
Imagine an opaque box with 100 balls, 99 of them being white and one red in it. Now every try you stick your hand in it, grab one ball and see what color it is and then you don't take the ball out but put it back in, mix the balls and grab another one. Check again if you got the red one and repeat.
That means that you could get the red one on the first try, but it doesn't mean that you get the red one at the 100th time for sure, not even on the 10.000th time. Since you're always drawing from the full 100 with the same chance over and over.
Thats why you can't say 1/100 tripping chance -> 10 dashs = 10/100 (or 10%) tripping chance. That's simply not true. And thats why those percents you're presenting here are off
If you're lucky you could bthrow-dthrow-cg through a whole tourney without tripping.
However, removing all the lucky factors in your grabgame is basically the best thing you can do. But my point still stands. If you mess up more than you trip, it's not worth it. And in my opinion those characters that are a pain to fthrow are definitely not worth it.
1/100 chance twice doesnt equal 2/100. Why not? I'll explain.
Imagine an opaque box with 100 balls, 99 of them being white and one red in it. Now every try you stick your hand in it, grab one ball and see what color it is and then you don't take the ball out but put it back in, mix the balls and grab another one. Check again if you got the red one and repeat.
That means that you could get the red one on the first try, but it doesn't mean that you get the red one at the 100th time for sure, not even on the 10.000th time. Since you're always drawing from the full 100 with the same chance over and over.
Thats why you can't say 1/100 tripping chance -> 10 dashs = 10/100 (or 10%) tripping chance. That's simply not true. And thats why those percents you're presenting here are off
If you're lucky you could bthrow-dthrow-cg through a whole tourney without tripping.
However, removing all the lucky factors in your grabgame is basically the best thing you can do. But my point still stands. If you mess up more than you trip, it's not worth it. And in my opinion those characters that are a pain to fthrow are definitely not worth it.
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
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Yeah, I accounted for that Link when I did the math. If you can CG 0-Death better than a rate of 4/5, you should do the new CG.
That's how bad tripping is. Reasonable expectation would be for every 5 stocks attempted, you would likely trip out of at least one.
I'm just quantifying the numbers for you. And the numbers demonstrate the tripping is really bad
That's how bad tripping is. Reasonable expectation would be for every 5 stocks attempted, you would likely trip out of at least one.
I'm just quantifying the numbers for you. And the numbers demonstrate the tripping is really bad
Deathfox30
Smash Journeyman
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You probably spent more time trying to figure out the probability of tripping and arguing about whether or not it's actually worth learning than it would've taken you to master this chain grab. It's just an F throw with an easy b throw regrab...
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
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Oh, I don't do it on Lucas.
The alternative is to Dthrow Walk everyone everywhere. Which is also tripless
But my whole thing being, at this point in the metagame, there really isn't a reason to not be doing tripless stuff unless you like playing at a disadvantage
The alternative is to Dthrow Walk everyone everywhere. Which is also tripless
But my whole thing being, at this point in the metagame, there really isn't a reason to not be doing tripless stuff unless you like playing at a disadvantage
Roller
Smash Legend
There are too many negatives in this. I've started the dthrow walking for snake/heavies.
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
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Dthrow is possible, however it does have significant timing issues
Based on frame data, Dthrow has variable timings. Specifically at the crux of the issue is the variable cooldown timing.
Most IASA - Hitbox frames will subtract down to less than 10. This is significant because 10 frames is the buffer window. Fthrow's frame window is 26 frames. This leaves a large 16 frame window in which you can input a Nana Bthrow where the game won't read inputs for Popo. This is significant because if you're already holding the control stick full tilt when entering the buffer window, the game will read a turn around instead of dash, thus why I say buffered turn around.
In terms of dthrow, certain characters you'd have no window of buffer time to work with, so you'd have to manually input a turn around by being gentle with the control stick. Since it's a non buffering situation, for most human level of inputs, this will also induce some walking (one or two steps), which alters spacing. Given the fact that you already have to walk significantly farther forward with Nana in order to correctly space a dthrow, this could lead to some spacing problems on certain characters.
TLDR: Dthrow is possible, but requires levels of tech skill most people don't have to perform
Based on frame data, Dthrow has variable timings. Specifically at the crux of the issue is the variable cooldown timing.
Most IASA - Hitbox frames will subtract down to less than 10. This is significant because 10 frames is the buffer window. Fthrow's frame window is 26 frames. This leaves a large 16 frame window in which you can input a Nana Bthrow where the game won't read inputs for Popo. This is significant because if you're already holding the control stick full tilt when entering the buffer window, the game will read a turn around instead of dash, thus why I say buffered turn around.
In terms of dthrow, certain characters you'd have no window of buffer time to work with, so you'd have to manually input a turn around by being gentle with the control stick. Since it's a non buffering situation, for most human level of inputs, this will also induce some walking (one or two steps), which alters spacing. Given the fact that you already have to walk significantly farther forward with Nana in order to correctly space a dthrow, this could lead to some spacing problems on certain characters.
TLDR: Dthrow is possible, but requires levels of tech skill most people don't have to perform
TimboJimbo
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2010
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- 23
WARNING!!! WARNING!!! NOOB QUESTION APPROACHING!!!!
Hey, can you do this chain grab whilst using wiimote+nunchuk. The normal chaingrab I can almost kindasorta do (works sometimes for 3 or 4 grabs, need a lot more practice) but its really hard with wiimote+nunchuck and wondered if this one was easier?
*Retreats into noob cave and hopes head doesnt get bitten off*
Hey, can you do this chain grab whilst using wiimote+nunchuk. The normal chaingrab I can almost kindasorta do (works sometimes for 3 or 4 grabs, need a lot more practice) but its really hard with wiimote+nunchuck and wondered if this one was easier?
*Retreats into noob cave and hopes head doesnt get bitten off*
What's a normal chaingrab?
Also don't chaingrab if you are not totally familiar with the character. I did this mistake and got owned so bad I quit. I came back obv though.
Buy a GC controller, the wiichuck is annoying to sync into every station and it might cause problems too.
inb4realicplayers
Also don't chaingrab if you are not totally familiar with the character. I did this mistake and got owned so bad I quit. I came back obv though.
Buy a GC controller, the wiichuck is annoying to sync into every station and it might cause problems too.
inb4realicplayers
Roller
Smash Legend
You should be able to do this with any controller. But I highly recommend the GC or if you really want, the Classic controller (pro). The constant precision required for these ATs makes motion controlling a lot tougher imo.
Mr. game and watch
Smash Master
I think GCC is your best option for everything.
It's easier to use.
More comfortable to most people.
And you just plug and play an move on with life.
Makes alot of ATs easier/possible.
And takes a day with CPU fights to get into the habbit of using it.
It's easier to use.
More comfortable to most people.
And you just plug and play an move on with life.
Makes alot of ATs easier/possible.
And takes a day with CPU fights to get into the habbit of using it.
Can you explain to me why this Classic controller "pro" is so much better than the normal version when they just made it black and added some handles. I played normal CC for a year and it was perfectly fine. I could easily switch to GC though because it was annoying to sync everything all the time.
Roller
Smash Legend
I put ( )'s around it to merely show that both the original and the pro were options. Otherwise I would have left the ( )'s out. imo, it looks more comfortable. But I only have an original CC, and that works fine for when I play Monster Hunter. Again though, I recommend the GC controller. A wired connection will always be more reliable, (again, imo).
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
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In theory the Classic Pro is a superior controller than the GCN once because it has more button options.
If it had a better control stick or I had money for wiimote batteries, I'd learn to use it over the GCN just to Cbounce things
If it had a better control stick or I had money for wiimote batteries, I'd learn to use it over the GCN just to Cbounce things
MysteryRevengerson
IT'S A MYSTERY TO ALL
This actually wasn't that hard to learn. I'm working on consistency now, I usually get to 100ish percent
I have a replay now if anyone still would like to see a video because I'm pretty sure I've got the spacing down (most of the time) Nevermind, just watch 9B videos from march :V
Roller
Smash Legend
ayo, link those somewhere.
I have an issue with doing the f-throw after the back-throw.
Sometimes I dash forward 'cuz I press the stick too hard. Sometimes I just walk and Nana doesn't throw because I pressed the stick too gently.
The f-throw part is simply killing me.
Sometimes I dash forward 'cuz I press the stick too hard. Sometimes I just walk and Nana doesn't throw because I pressed the stick too gently.
The f-throw part is simply killing me.
Roller
Smash Legend
You're just hitting the stick too hard. Just do it in the way similar to how you would do a forward tilt/tilt your shield.