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The Never Ending List of Toon's AT's and Tricks / The Data Dump / Song of Brainstorms

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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It doesn't matter which smash they charge, the effect will be the same, and that is, that the knockback of our moves will be increased. This does not affect DI or what direction they go in. If they face right and charge a F-smash, they won't go any further right then if they had of charged a D-smash. That is where DI comes in. If they charge the smash while still holding the direction they are charging in, this will greatly affect the direction they get hit in. This is why I specifically tested charged smashes without DI (I put the joystick back to neutral as soon as it started charging).
This has been known for a while by a few people, so it's not new.
So to sum it up. The D-smash in the vid, the strange DI was because the MK was still holding Down for the charged D-smash when he got hit. The only thing that the charging affected is how far the MK got flung, not the direction.
So in your proposed situation where a Falco is charging a F-smash and we hit them with D-smash, depending on the percent, if the Falco didn't hold Forwards, the D-smash would work normally only the Falco would get hit further (and possibly die earlier, percent depending) and if he did hold forwards, well I don't think that the second hit would miss, it might, but if the second hit connected the Falco would get hit further towards the direction he was holding and if the second hit missed then the same thing would happen as in the vid.

I hope you understand now.
 

MasterDaveNo1

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I learned some cool bomb stuff I didnt know. Some not very useful, but there was 1 useful one in the bunch that I didnt know already, so Id rate this a 10/10 AT's list.
 

TLMSheikant

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^ LOL @ dtl. I just hope it wasnt known. Its just basically JC bomb throwing at the edge of the stage. U jump, throw the bomb in any direction and still have your second jump. Its just basically an aerial JC throw :/. Nothing good really.

Btw- if u do it wrong, u wont have ur second jump.
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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I don't get it. Do you mean you JC Throw the Bomb near the edge then slide off the edge and are able to Double Jump? Surely not. Do you mean you miss time the JC Throw so you just Jump and throw the Bomb then still have your second jump. I hope not.
Aerial JC Throw? I'm gonna try one more time, but I might need you to explain again more clearly.
Oh I think I get it. So it's the same timing and controls as the JC throw only you use it right on the edge and it doesn't cancel the jump and then you can double jump. If used too early you will do a normal JC Throw and if used too late you will do a Double jump bomb throw. Is that right?
I gotta go now so let me know if I got it and I'll consider adding it (But you gotta talk it up XD).
 

TLMSheikant

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Its not that hard...Yes its the same as a normal JC throw. It requires a little bit of timing. Toon Link jumps at the edge (with a little bit of momentum from the jc), throws the bomb and still has his second jump. If it happened like that, u got it. I can do it consistently already and have been using it to aid my platform camping in smashville. Maybe I need to save a replay of it since I told twink and he hasnt been able to pull it off either :/.
 

Masterchef1123

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I ain't tellin' u
I have a chain grab combo with toon link
Grab your opponent throw them downwards.
Turn around and grab them just before they land.
Can use to up to 50%
so kinda useful
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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@Sheikant: Yeah that's what I thought it was. I was able to do it quite easily, it's just like doing a JC Throw only you do it when running off the edge. I'm not sure however why it's so special. I mean, you get pretty much the same effect by miss timing a JC Throw and not cancelling the jump, and that can be done anywhere, not just the edge. It's interesting and all, so I spose I'm just saying are there any cool properties or anything that I'm not aware of that make it special or different from a miss timed JC Throw? If you know of anything then please tell me and if it sounds good enough, then I'll add it to the list. Also, how do you use it on Smashville? Like I'm sure I could think of a few ways, but I'm just trying to help you talk it up and convince me that it's legit.
 

TLMSheikant

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While doing the edge JC throw you travel further, with more momentum and faster than doing an onstage mistimed JC throw. It works for edgeguarding and on smashville it makes for a good way to get to the moving platform while being safer by throwing the bomb. I, at least love that platform as TL :p.
 

Sosuke

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Weirdest thing happened yesterday.

I did a Dair, but the animation stopped before the actual hit came out and I was like "o_O".
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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@Sheikant: Yeah that's good enough for me. I'll do some more testing and stuff to be sure that you get extra momentum and distance and then I'll add it. What did you want to call it?

@Sasuke: The Dair Cancel strikes again? So I'm presuming you were in mid air, you Daired, and without anything else touching you, it simply stopped Dairing before the hitbox came out. (Momentum?) So I'm also going to presume that you were close enough to someone to have expected them to be spiked and then they weren't. Which makes me think that them being so close gives them a good chance of interfering. More information plox.
 

Sosuke

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It was near the ground after I did a B-reversal arrow.
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Hmm.... (Jeez I hate the Dair XD. It's so glitchy, I don't know what they were thinking when they designed it.) Ok so.... you were by yourself, you did a B-reversal and then Instantly Daired near the ground? So were was the opponent? Why did you Dair so close to the ground, was the opponent under you? But the B-reversal doesn't effect Dair in the slightest, so.....
You know what, I have absolutely no idea. Did you get a vid? Any more information like when was the last time you were hit, the position of your opponent, who was the opponent, what stage. Yeah I dunno. That's weird.
 

Sosuke

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I was trying to do Bair, but messed up. It was against a player with no one playing, I was just practicing.
Yes, I messed up a Bair. ._.


No video, it was an hour or so into practicing and I didn't really want to save it. >_>
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Ok this makes a bit more sense. (And don't worry about the Bair, that's why you were in training XD) So what level? FD?
So if no one was playing, we can rule out momentum as a cause even though you used a B-reversal, which reverses momentum, it's still your own momentum and that doesn't affect Dair.
So possibly the level. Which level and where abouts were you on it when you Daired. (If you say BF and you were on the edge of one of the platforms XD)
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Smashville. So there's the balloon but that wouldn't have affected it because you were close to the ground. There's the moving platform, possible, it does weird things. Where was the platform when you Daired? Did you even use the moving platform within like 2-3 seconds of this happening. (Possibly moving platform + B-reversal could result in strange momentum. I got nothing else.)
Edit: Quickly checks...... Nah, just as I thought. There's no way that the Dair could do the U-air thing because Toon always bobs up first then goes down.
 

Sosuke

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The platform wasn't on screen, iirc.


Sheikant, can you imagine? xD
That would be awesome.
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Gah. No platform. I'm out of ideas then. I'll let you know if I ever find anything though. (And so the Dair Cancel eludes me once again XD)
Also Sheikant, is it even possible, with the whole JC Throw thing off the edge, is it possible to do a Short hopped version? I haven't fully checked it out, but from what I've seen so far, I don't think it is possible. Which is quite strange.
 

Hyro

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@Sheikant: Yeah that's good enough for me. I'll do some more testing and stuff to be sure that you get extra momentum and distance and then I'll add it. What did you want to call it?

@Sasuke: The Dair Cancel strikes again? So I'm presuming you were in mid air, you Daired, and without anything else touching you, it simply stopped Dairing before the hitbox came out. (Momentum?) So I'm also going to presume that you were close enough to someone to have expected them to be spiked and then they weren't. Which makes me think that them being so close gives them a good chance of interfering. More information plox.
Hmm.... (Jeez I hate the Dair XD. It's so glitchy, I don't know what they were thinking when they designed it.) Ok so.... you were by yourself, you did a B-reversal and then Instantly Daired near the ground? So were was the opponent? Why did you Dair so close to the ground, was the opponent under you? But the B-reversal doesn't effect Dair in the slightest, so.....
You know what, I have absolutely no idea. Did you get a vid? Any more information like when was the last time you were hit, the position of your opponent, who was the opponent, what stage. Yeah I dunno. That's weird.
Ok this makes a bit more sense. (And don't worry about the Bair, that's why you were in training XD) So what level? FD?
So if no one was playing, we can rule out momentum as a cause even though you used a B-reversal, which reverses momentum, it's still your own momentum and that doesn't affect Dair.
So possibly the level. Which level and where abouts were you on it when you Daired. (If you say BF and you were on the edge of one of the platforms XD)
Smashville. So there's the balloon but that wouldn't have affected it because you were close to the ground. There's the moving platform, possible, it does weird things. Where was the platform when you Daired? Did you even use the moving platform within like 2-3 seconds of this happening. (Possibly moving platform + B-reversal could result in strange momentum. I got nothing else.)
Edit: Quickly checks...... Nah, just as I thought. There's no way that the Dair could do the U-air thing because Toon always bobs up first then goes down.
...you are hereby known as- Fox Is Openly Detective.

Anyways, yeah, upair actually autocancels...but only if you land with it before the hitbox comes out. Useless...maybe a mindgame. I just don't see how that'd be possible with dair since you could never be low enough, it's a stall and fall.
 

Sosuke

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I should buy Fox premium.

Anyway, I agree wit you Hyro. I was thinking the same thing.
I like that you can make that flash of light with a canceled Uair though. :3
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Lol Hyro, that's so awesome. I don't know how you do it. (Sigged!!!)
Truely inspired man.

(Sasuke, can't you just use your Mod powers to get it for free XD?)

And I've been trying to find ways to implement the auto canceled U-air for a while now. So far, it picks up items laglessly and it's flashy (because it flashes, duh).
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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(Prepare yourselves for a long post XD)

Unfortunately DTL, it won't happen because the part that would be able to cancel is the part where Toon actually bobs up. But, you did give me an idea. And it worked.

I actually got the Dair to cancel. Many times. So I have proven that it is theoretically possible to cancel the Dair. But how did I do it? Well as I just said to DTL, the Dair can't be cancelled normally because Toon bobs up at the start, so I simply made him not bob up by using momentum. When Toon Dairs while he has momentum, he won't bob up, he'll simply slowly fall.
So to re-create this yourselves, go to training, pick any character, make the cpu Toon, (grab two controllers), Go to Battlefield, using P1 put the cpu on control with the percent at 154% and make the speed 1/4 so you can see the cancel clearer and so the whole thing is easier. Now taking P2, make Toon stand under one of the bottom platforms, pull out a Bomb, hold down, throw the Bomb at your feet (still holding down) and then start spamming A (resulting in a Dair as soon as possible) (If your going to spam A really fast, then you might want the percent at 153%).
What will happen is, you'll blow yourself up, Toon will Dair for a split second and it will auto cancel on the platform without the shockwave like affect. (Holding down simply makes things easier, it does not affect the auto cancel.)

But wait there's more. You know how I said that if you're going to spam A really fast then you might want the percent on 153%? Well, I had the percent on 154%, I spammed really fast, and normaly this will result in the shockwave like affect and it won't auto cancel. But something else happend to me twice, where I was on 154%, I spammed, and the Dair landed right on the edge of the platform. Toon landed on the edge of the platform for a split second resulting in the shockwave like affect, and then I slid off the platform and it Auto cancelled into another Dair. So this means that I have solved the case of Copacetic's Dair that cancelled on the edge of the platform. I can finally say that this is confirmed. It is possible. What's more I can tell you how it happened, more or less. It was as I thought, the momentum of the MK's neutral B made you slowly fall a Dair right near the edge of the platform, it didn't auto cancel the normal way otherwise you wouldn't have seen it, rather it auto cancelled a second way, so you were a little bit higher up then the first way and the Dair landed on the edge of the platform (so you had actually landed at this point but you still had a bit of momentum) then the momentum and the fact that you were right on the edge, slid you off. At this point you had auto cancelled the Dair, the second way, and were able to Bair before you touched the ground.

So there are two types of auto canceled Dair (so far).
The first way, monentum stops the Dair from bobbing up and you Dair right when you are level with the platform. There is no hitbox. The Dair animation is only out for a split second.
The second way, momentum stops the Dair from bobbing up and you Dair right on the edge of the platform. You actually land on the edge of the platform for a split second, so I'm guessing that there is a wind box and the strange hitbox of the Dair Shockwave. Then the momentum plus the fact that you're right on the edge, pushes you off the platform resulting in an auto cancel.

Unfortunatelly, I still don't know how Sasuke's one works.


Now I know that this is extremely situational and because of that, it's not very useful, I'm not trying to make it out to be useful. All I'm saying is that for the first time ever, it has been proven that the Dair can in fact cancel, in two known ways. It is possible. Now we've just gotta find a way to make it more useful and less situational.

Fox Is Openly Detective, has solved the case XD.

Edit: So I found a really easy way to re-create the second version of the auto cancelled Dair. Same thing as before, cpu Toon, control, you can do it easilly in normal speed so don't bother putting it on 1/4, put the cpu's percent to exactly 82%. Right, get Toon to stand on top of the right platform, pull out a bomb, walk over to the right side of the right platform until he does that thing where he waves his arms about (the very edge), Hit and hold down to make Toon fall through the platform, (still holding down) spam A. What will happen is Toon will fall through the platform, throw a Bomb down and be hit by the explosion, slowly fall a Dair and will always land on the very edge of the left side of the right platform (Unless the Bomb blows you the wrong way, in which case your throwing the bomb down too early, I think). You will see the shockwave, then the Dair will always cancel and you will be able to Instantly use any aerial (Including Bair. Copacetic's thing.). This is fun stuff.
Also, because I found a way to use the second version consistently, I was able to do a few tests. For that split second, the Dair that is cancelled has a wind hitbox (so you can push stuff laglessly XD) and the spike hitbox of the Dair. So if someone interupts the Dair before you reach the platform, they will be hit with the spike hitbox (Possibly a way to safe spike laglessly? I'll keep checking stuff out.) Get this though, it doesn't have the Dair shockwave hitbox because it cancels too early and the Dair shockwave hitbox comes out slightly later. Oh well.
 

copacetic

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Wow. You are absolutely ridiculous, this is awesome. Now we just need to find some way of implementing it. The trick will be finding out how to do it from the ground and not just a platform, and maybe a damage range it will work at for how stale the bombs are. I noticed that I couldn't always do it right, so I ended up DIing the explosion a little bit to aim for the edge, which at least means there's probably a small range for it. And at higher percentages with staler bombs the range will be larger. Hopefully.

Still, I'm glad you were able to recreate it, I was starting to think it didn't actually happen as I saw it.



EDIT: So as not to double post I'll write this here.
I was playing around with the boomerang on BF and found out a pretty neat trick. In the past people have throw the rang against the stage and had it come up a couple body lengths away from the edge of the stage, but, for this stage at least, I found a way you can get it to come up 1.5-2 roll lengths away from the stage. It can return anywhere from the middle of the first platform to between the middle and outer platform on battlefield. Which is perfect against people that can guard the edge of the stage from a distance (like a marth or olimar). And the boomerang stalls under the stage for a long time, so you have enough time to get back to the ledge and try whatever tactic you planned on doing. I had enough time to pull out a bomb, then ledge hop a rang return->bomb->fair. And it seems a perfectly safe strategy to use.

So while you're on the ledge, just softly drop straight down and throw a boomerang up. It should bounce off the lip right before the cage holding the crystal thing. I think. That should be where it hits I kinda forget now.

Either way it's not terribly useful but it's a safe way of covering our ***** while we get onstage, and extends the usefulness of something I think sasuke (pretty sure he was the one) looked at a year ago
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Wow. You are absolutely ridiculous, this is awesome. Now we just need to find some way of implementing it. The trick will be finding out how to do it from the ground and not just a platform, and maybe a damage range it will work at for how stale the bombs are. I noticed that I couldn't always do it right, so I ended up DIing the explosion a little bit to aim for the edge, which at least means there's probably a small range for it. And at higher percentages with staler bombs the range will be larger. Hopefully.

Still, I'm glad you were able to recreate it, I was starting to think it didn't actually happen as I saw it.
Thanks man. What can I say, this is what I do XD. But yeah, as for ever making it something realistic, well that's another matter altogether. I've tried many times to use it without platforms (on the edge) but it seems I can never DI the blast of the Bomb horizontal enough. It's quite iritating cause I was so incredibly close to getting it. I mean, doing it without platforms is totally plausible, it's using our own bombs to make it work that might be impossible. As for getting the percent perfect in a real match, well so far, good luck. The percents are very, very specific. If you used Dair asap every time, the difference between the first and second way to Dair cancel would be something like 1%. However, the range of percents that it is possible is about 15%.
For example, supposing you were to blow yourself up in the exact same way/spot every time, with the second one, getting it to work all relies on Toon still having momentum sideways when he slowly Dair's right on the edge. So it can be done inbetween a range of around 10-15% (This means more like 80% - 95%. Just an example.). Same example, the first way only relies on using a slowly falling Dair right when your about to land on a platform, so the range would be a bit bigger. But still, I think until a more plausible way is found, this will simply be a trick and nothing more.
Oh and by the way, I laglessly pushed a Bomb off the platform, it was sick XD. Just stand underneath the platform on 82%, Pull out a Bomb, Full hop through the platform and C4 the Bomb in the middle of the platform on the way up, Instantly Pull out a Bomb, land, walk to the right edge of the platform, Fall through, hold down and spam A. Twas fun.

EDIT: So as not to double post I'll write this here.
I was playing around with the boomerang on BF and found out a pretty neat trick. In the past people have throw the rang against the stage and had it come up a couple body lengths away from the edge of the stage, but, for this stage at least, I found a way you can get it to come up 1.5-2 roll lengths away from the stage. It can return anywhere from the middle of the first platform to between the middle and outer platform on battlefield. Which is perfect against people that can guard the edge of the stage from a distance (like a marth or olimar). And the boomerang stalls under the stage for a long time, so you have enough time to get back to the ledge and try whatever tactic you planned on doing. I had enough time to pull out a bomb, then ledge hop a rang return->bomb->fair. And it seems a perfectly safe strategy to use.

So while you're on the ledge, just softly drop straight down and throw a boomerang up. It should bounce off the lip right before the cage holding the crystal thing. I think. That should be where it hits I kinda forget now.

Either way it's not terribly useful but it's a safe way of covering our ***** while we get onstage, and extends the usefulness of something I think sasuke (pretty sure he was the one) looked at a year ago
I checked that out, there are some really great spots to throw it in the spot you mentioned. The effect of the returning rang all depends on how quickly you throw it after slowly let go of the ledge. I might play around with that in a few matches and see if it helps. Cheers.
 

TLMSheikant

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They are incorrect. Brawl doesnt have good universal techs. But there are a lot of char specific stuffs...we should know, we're Toon Links.
 
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