The Need for a backroom + other stuff

[Deleted member]

With the release of VC, 64 is now more popular than ever with VC tournaments starting to bring up in many places.

But the current ruleset sucks really bad in my opinion and should be altered, something a backroom with deep knowledge of the game should do. Because tournament play for 64 is slowly rising, I think a major revision should take place so that the rules are fairer.

1.
The stages:

-a neutral can be picked in the beginning of the set, a counterpick is chosen when u lose

Hyrule, due to its good size and walls that let everyone combo, is rightfully a neutral.

Dreamland is horrendously unfair in favor of a couple TOP TIER characters and to me should be only a counterpick. Pika can literally gimp a chunk of the cast by f-throw and run off n-air. Falcons can 0 to death extremely easily due to the platforms granting free additional up-airs (to up-b or down-air). The fact that people can pick this stage off the bat is dum.



Kongo Jungle seems to be a decently fair stage and this is what I think people should debate over whether it should be neutral or counterpick. I am 99% sure it is more fair than Dreamland

Saffron City- Currently a counterpick, but seems to have potential to be a neutral. Ness whiners might disagree though.

Peaches Castle- counterpick, nothing much to say

Brinstar- I think it's good for counterpick, some people may not think it should be played at all in tourney though

Sector Z/ Yoshi's Island/ Mushroom Kingdom- banned

The first stage:

Should be RPS (rock paper scissor'ed for) unless both players agree. I think the only neutrals should be Hyrule, Kongo, (maybe Saffron).

The counterpick:

I'm not sure if stage bans (the winner of round 1 bans a stage that the lose then cannot pick) should come into play considering there are not a lot of stages to pick from. Good point to debate.


2. A need for a timer for camping homos that make this game boring sometimes

-Some people camp their ***** off whether they are winning or losing. Due to a lack of an in game timer, there is no penalty for doing such a thing.

I personally think there should be like an 8-10 minute timer gauged in real life but i'm not sure how to best make this system fair/ work well. This topic I think should be debated. Some people think its fine to camp for hours regardless of them winning or losing and there really isn't a punishment except for being known as a camping homo

It's not as important as the stage debate


----

64 also needs a good mod

throughout the years 64 had the worst and/or most inactive mods in the world (meowkitty, surri)

currently mic_128 is lurking around but hes ehh and kills good topics for the wrong reasons

I think someone like Blue Yoshi or Tigerbombz should become the next 64 mod

 

[SSBPete]

people with good ledge di get a disadvantage at kongo. saffron is fun and fair (cept ness' could ask for a map change).
otherwise i think the rest is a good idea

 

[Sensei]

Anything that is random should be banned, thus peaches castle is the only stage viable. JK.

I'll post a real thought once i get some sleep.

 

[rpotts]

I think someone like Blue Yoshi or Tigerbombz should become the next 64 mod

Looks at quote...looks at signature...wat

But seriously, dreamland has a huge advantage over kongo for being neutral simply because you can't ledge DI on kongo, making edgeguarding easier. I know DL is brutal on low tierers but there aren't enough solid maps to throw something as good as dreamland out.

If Dreamland isn't neutral i can't see why saffron would be, with the random pokemon and brutally easy edgeguards between buildings, not to mention the hell we would get from the few ness mains there are. Dreamland is flat, has platforms and has almost no stage interference (wind can be a ***** sometimes though) it has to be neutral, imo

I don't like this whole movement towards VC64 because you can't use n64 controllers (unless you have an adapter and can somehow get used to the messed up controls)

Playing it on gc controller is nice for movement but brutal for L-canceling because R/L aren't analog and you have to press them all the way down, unlike melee. Also, I think the 64 button layout is preferable because of how close the c's are to A/B. Not to turn this into a gc/64 troller debate, it just seemed applicable.

 

[Lovage]

i can't believe no one ever made a ruleset thread for this game

considering most tournaments just use the ruleset from melee and apply it to this game which makes no sense at all (using DSR and advanced slobs for a game with like 4 stages)

doesn't really matter much tho because this is mostly a PC game except for the tournies in SF

 

[NixxxoN]

Someone to make FD playable with normal edges... =S

 

[Thino]

if we really look through things , we should be keft with only one neutral stage , that is Hyrule

 

[srbsburrito]

doesn't really matter much tho because this is mostly a PC game except for the tournies in SF

well we should change that. Their is a good amount of competitive players in california. Players that are reaching/at lvls once unheard of. We need more tournaments/gatherings for 64console. Maybe main as a melee thing.Im willing to contribute for such a thing....and im sure others are too.

 

[ballin4life]

1) Tigerbombz would deliver some stfuppercuts on all the bad threads

2) I feel like the far right platform in saffron can be camped pretty effectively but I don't really know.

3) Could someone explain more why Dreamland is so unfair? Is it that it's small so you can gimp easily?

4) I don't think ledge DI is that big of a deal. Most of the time you will die anyway even if you ledge DI since you are stuck in the same situation and you'll be edgeguarded again (unless you get that crazy reverse ledge DI that sends you back onto the stage ... I don't know how to do that though).

 

[ciaza]

While kongo doesn't have ledge Di, you can recover from anywhere underneath the stage, as well as the barrell. While it doesn't completely make up for the no-di, it does shove it more neutral. I think saffron should stay CP mainly for ness. Otherwise it looks good.

 

[asianaussie]

Hey guys he was joking when he said tigerbombz should be admin tsk tsk internet isn't serious you know.

Blue Yoshi for admin :D

On a more serious note, Kongo is a great neutral, better than Dreamland imho. Certain characters have huge disadvantages on Dreamland while some have huge advantages on it.

VC 64 doesn't have any glaring changes that alter gameplay (in a negative way) from the N64 version, does it?

 

[DaisyBoo92]

tigerbombz would make the best mod on swf

 

[Lovage]

well we should change that. Their is a good amount of competitive players in california. Players that are reaching/at lvls once unheard of. We need more tournaments/gatherings for 64console. Maybe main as a melee thing.Im willing to contribute for such a thing....and im sure others are too.

the only way n64 smash will get more popular is on the backs of melee/brawl

 

[Lawrencelot]

Hyrule sucks, it's only good for teams because then camping is harder and other stages are too small for teams. In hyrule, the wall indeed makes it possible for everyone to combo, which is not a good thing, because it promotes camping ("I'm not going in that tent you know" "Well I have high percent I ain't going out of here"). Though Dreamland makes it easy to gimp, the open space is just large enough to have a normal fight (barely though), and the characters that have a disadvantage also have other advantages there (Fox can abuse shinespikes more, Link makes it hard for his opponent to move around since they can't really run away from his ranged attacks, Ness has a good spike, etc). I like Kongo Jungle as well, I don't really see the downsides of that stage, as someone said ledge di doesn't mean that much except when playing against people who can't edgeguard. Saffron has sortof the same issues as Hyrule, Brinstar I don't know I just don't like it much.

Pika and Falcon are better on Dreamland yes. It makes the characters a bit more unbalanced yes. That doesn't mean it's better than a huge stage where every character has the choice to either get into minute-lasting combos, or keep running away from their opponent. Also, edgeguarding is actually easier in Hyrule in some occasions (on the right side), since you can even hit your opponent towards the stage and he'll bounce back on the tower to get edgeguarded again.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

I would say maybe have Hyrule, Dreamland, and Kongo Jungle as neutral. Hyrule, I think almost everyone agrees with. Dreamland, sure it does favour some characters, but that can be fixed (see below). Kongo Jungle seems to be another fairly neutral stage. As for Saffron, I think it should remain counterpick, since Ness sucks on it, and the pokemon that come out can vastly change the match (getting hit by razor leaf or something leads to getting combo'd to death in some cases).

Well... my point is lets have three neutral stages (Hyrule, Dreamland, 3rd stage... probably Kongo Jungle). The players can do stage striking to determine which one they want. This way, people who do not like the tent camping can remove Hyrule, people who find Dreamland unfair can remove Dreamland, while people who hate the barrel or go-through-stage effect can remove Kongo Jungle. The players can do "Rock Paper Scisors" to determine who picks first (loser picks first), thus resulting in a neutral stage that both would agree to.

Also, you forgot Craiiig (forget his spelling) was also a mod at one point

 

[WOTG]

Don't like campers? Don't enter tournies, don't play campers.

 

[Deleted member]

Don't like campers? Don't enter tournies, don't play campers.

is there a way to ban ******* from my thread?

 

[Nintendude]

I'm not convinced that Dreamland isn't neutral. Sure, it makes characters like Pika, Kirby, and Falcon better, but having more neutrals in SSBM make Marth, Falco, and ICs better. I know it's not quite the same, especially cause SSBM has more neutrals and stage striking, but it is a similar case. I personally think the best way to handle SSB64 neutrals is to have Dreamland, Congo Jungle, and Hyrule as neutral and have each player strike 1 stage. Playing against Pika? Strike Dreamland. Playing against Fox? Strike Hyrule. Stage striking is a good way to handle the fact that SSB64 lacks a good neutral stage.

Zebes should definitely be a counterpick and I'm leaning towards Saffron being cp because getting blown up by an electrode shouldn't happen on a neutral stage.

 

[SheerMadness]

I think Yoshi is the best character on dreamland. I counterpick every character there.

 

[WOTG]

I think Hyrule is the only neutral stage. I enjoy Dreamland mostly in dittos.

is there a way to ban ******* from my thread?

Impossible with that attitude.

 

[M3tr01D]

I like nintendude's idea.


However, I've never really understood saffron as a legal stage. The pokemon are completely random. Stage is almost as long as hyrule so plenty of camping CAN be done, though perhaps not as bad as the hyrule **** tent.

And, it basically destroys ness. Yeah ness might not have the best recovery, but the holes in the wall basically remove his UB from the game. On other levels ness can sweet spot the edge, try to go over the top, ram the opponent, hit the bottom of the wall and bounce up to the ledge, etc. Here he just falls down the hole and dies, guaranteed. On Melee, stages with walls were banned, because other characters (mainly not fox) would be destroyed by the walls. Get to close to the wall? well say goodbye to that stock. Same in brawl, when it was discovered the D3 could chain grab certain characters, stages with walls and flat lands that extended off the edge were banned. Why? Because certain characters could be killed by the stage just as bad as Ness is on saffron.

I don't mind this stage for fun play and stuff, but for a tourney or MM.. seriously? Only reason imo it's still considered is because hardly anyone plays Ness. Saffron should be banned outright.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

someone sits on h pad, good luck hitting them or not getting destroyed by them(kirby, pika mostly)

 

[Deleted member]

There's some good discussion in this thread, very relevant (not WOTG). With a backroom, we can have a nice discussion without people butting in with their stupidity (WOTG)

I don't agree with banning Saffron just because of Ness. If you are good enough you can avoid situations where you might go into the hole. I'll also argue that Ness can 0 to death simply here due to the many vertical pits. I think though it should remain as a counterpick. The pokemon don't really screw people over ENOUGH that much in my opinion either. Counterpicks are meant to disadvantage certain characters or introduce some dum element

The three way stage strike sounds good

 

[M3tr01D]

Counter picks are ment to disadvantage, not destroy.

Like falcon would pick dreamland. Yes falcon can do a lot of good combos here, no one can argue that. Other characters though can knock him off the stage, and with falcons poor recovery can get an easy kill since so much of the stage is off the sides. Or someone picking peaches castle against DK so he has no ledges to use, especially for UB edge guarding. Yeah this limits DK, but it also hurts the opponent because they are also unable to sweetspot an edge, making them easier to edge guard. Ness really gains nothing. Yeah he can tilt --> spike in the pits, but almost anyone can do that in any level anyway on the ledges. And the spiked opponent if not at high percents can recover, do to having an up b.

I challenge you that if you really think saffron is fair, try playing matches there without using your main characters Up B. Cause, by just picking a stage, the other player has gained that advantage against Ness. Unless there was a very large gap in skill, any Ness main would have to move to a secondary character. It's not a counterpick that you can simply "play through."

To me, it's the same thing as maining D3 and being allowed to pick that lame *** twilight princess flat level that you can CG people off the stage on. Yes you can just "not get grabbed" just like ness can avoid the pits, but seriously? If you main a character that can be chain grabbed you're going to have to switch, unless you have a large difference in skill.

 

[DMoogle]

The vast majority of the time I get owned in a pit as Ness, it's my own stupid doing, not someone else's gimping skills. It really is easy to avoid the pits, IMO.

 

[Deleted member]

You can either whine about the "unfairness" of the stage or heavily camp with Nesses up-tilt on the helipad or hang around the left-middle area where getting gimped is harder

If some dude is forced to use his up-b and is in a Saffron pit, all it takes is a Ness to down-air, with some exceptions

Anyways, banning a stage just because one character gets owned (and he doesn't) by it is unheard of in any game

 

[ballin4life]

There's some good discussion in this thread, very relevant (not WOTG). With a backroom, we can have a nice discussion without people butting in with their stupidity (WOTG)

Just ignore the stupid posts, it's not that hard.

 

[Battlecow]

MATTS! for mod. I think DL should keep its neutral status, for reasons explained admirably well by my precursors on this thread. Kongo Jungle is not gonna cut it, though. If we're going to allow LoD's, why not just bring out FD, Battlefield, and Metal Mario as neutrals? it ain't that hard to hook them up, and I don't see any reason not to use them, and although obviously situations would arise in which they were unavailable, that shouldn't stop us from using them whenever they are (often, with the possible exception of FD for reasons I'm not going to go into). Oh yeah, and I was joking about matts. I meant Novakane.

 

[M3tr01D]

So I either change characters (aka whine) or refuse to fight anywhere but the helipad. Good stage imo.

 

[Gammelnorsk]

best mod right here ur lookin at him

 

[rpotts]

I don't like this whole striking neutral stages. If i'm following the consensus, there are three neutrals (Hyrule, DL, Kongo) and each player gets to strike one, leaving one neutral, and two to three counterpicks (Peaches, Saffron, and maybe Zebes) so with DSR wouldn't you sometimes run out of stages?? or is DSR not in effect? either way you would make 5 or 7 game sets brutal with only one neutral stage per set. Am i missing something?

 

[M3tr01D]

Hmm, I'll give the simple rule of what I understand, dunno if this is what nintendude intended or not.

DSR is not in effect

When you strike a stage, it gets added to the counterpick list. Striking the stages, I believe, is just to pick a neutral stage to start on. I assume this would be done after picking characters, but either before or after I think works fine.



Back to the convo with s2j, if you say ness doesn't get owned on saffron , and that everyone (almost) dies to the pits, then what is the advantage of picking saffron. I've never heard it picked for anything but gimping ness. Do people actually like saffron??

 

[DMoogle]

Saffron City is fun as hell.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Not to steal the spotlight from Nintendude, but I was the first to suggest the stage striking idea (post # 15 on the first page). But essentially, we both had the same idea.

The first stage would be a stage strike between three neutral stages (Dreamland, Hyrule, and a third stage most likely Kongo Jungle). Stage striking picks the first stage to be used. For counterpicks, all neutrals and all counterpicks are available to be used. DSR (aka Dave's Stupid Rule, for those that didn't know, where you cannot choose a stage you last won on) is not in effect, meaning if Player 1 won on dreamland, he can pick dreamland again as his counterpick. All non-banned stages are counterpickable, including striked stages. There is no banning stages due to the lack of stages (other than the already banned MK, YS, SZ).

That is the basic idea both me and Nintendude suggested.

 

[sMoke4jointz]

its CONGO jungle u n00bs

 

[ballin4life]

I don't like how the black captian falcon blends in with the background of congo jungle

 

[t3h Icy]

its CONGO jungle u n00bs

It's also "It's" and "you".

 

[DMoogle]

It's also "It's" and "you".

And periods go inside the quotation marks (which I think is really illogical and dumb, but that's how it is).

I don't like how the black captian falcon blends in with the background of congo jungle

Yeah, I would like Congo Jungle a lot more if it wasn't so **** dark. That's the reason I rarely ever choose it.

 

[sMoke4jointz]

It's also "It's" and "you".

yeah ur funny considering i've seen u use "your" in the wrong place ALL THE TIME.

 

[smakis]

I don't like how the black captian falcon blends in with the background of congo jungle

this, if congo jungle is going to be used samus and captain falcons black costumes should be banned from being used on that particular stage. not that huge but can still throw you off ;<.

i love saffron city, its unfair for ness players but they would have to get good at avoiding the pits (not saying that is easy.)

also whats the button layout when you use an adapter to play with the n 64 pad on the wii? jc shines are really easy with a gc controller but the time it takes to press the shoulder buttons down for z canceling is really annoying (and who was the idiot who put grab on r and taunt on z?)