The Most Controversial Thread on the Site! (Originally the Anti-Lucario/Pro Squirtle)

[ClarkJables]

i see what yer saying sandman, and poishrom pichu was 2nd gen

 

[the grim lizard]

That's true sandman, but you forget that Blastoise/Venusaur/Charizard/Goldeen returned in Melee, and already Chikorita and Goldeen are returning in Brawl...

 

[poishrom]

then they should at least have 4 pokemon in it like ,pika, jigg,m2 and some one better than pichu.

 

[Anders Kaiser]

First of all, there's no law stating that each game can only focus on one generation. Personally I think that pokeball-wise they should include reps from all four generations, that would be the most balanced. As for including someone from Lucario over a 2nd or 3rd gen, Lucario is a very notable and popular non-starter and non-legendary. My memory's fuzzy on this, but were there any pokes from those generations that compare to Lucario and Mewtwo's unique position? And to say that Sakurai should focus entirely on the Ruby/Saph generation and ignore D/P doesn't make much sense. You're penalizing the game because it's the most recent? By the time another Smash Bros comes around, we'll be ahead another console cycle and likely have another one or two pokemon generations to look over. Your suggestion would create an eternal backlog, with Smash including pokemon that are years old. That's not very helpful for Smash Marketing.

Most of your list can be countered or explained fairly easily.

- He comes from a game with many elemental skills. Since he is a fighting type, this choice would be disappointing since Sakurai can pick a water, fire, or grass character.

I still say this is kind of of a pointless point, but I suppose I'll concede it. If it really makes you that much happier to add a pokemon that has moves that do the same thing but look a little different, be my guest. None of us can really argue this until we see what the team does with any new pokemon fighters.

- Sakurai needs to represent the 3rd gen Pokemon before jumping into the 4th. The 3rd gen needs to be rightfully shown in Brawl.

There's no reason why it can't show up in pokeballs, stages, trophies, etc. Like I mentioned before, though, I can't think of a non-legendary that shares Lucario's unique situation. If there is one, let me know.

- Looks aren't everything, but Lucario looks like a mess. His head looks like he has a fake wig on it, and he has a goofy spike on his chest. Not to mention the color and pattern scheme.

Personally, I like his color scheme and the whole Egyptian dog style. This is all just arguing personal preference, though, not something that would affect his chances of making it into the game. Besides, plenty of Nintendo's characters would look just as out of whack to all of us if they didn't have the history behind them.

- The game has only been out for months. It doesn't have the seniority like the other Pokemon games have.

It may not have seniority, but it does have 10 million units and a lot of current-day mindshare.

- If Sakurai had to pick one character out of every Pokemon, he would probably go for the one with the most personality. The style Brawl is in is meant to be more fun than Melee. That's why Wario is so wacky, that's why Fox's head got much more awkward, that's why Donkey Kong plays the drums for his final. If you want a serious character, look into Metal Gear or Metroid, Pokemon was meant to have silly characters.

Get Mewtwo out of the game, then. And everyone from Metroid and Twilight Princess. And replace the evil-looking Bowser with his Paper Mario counterpart. It's the atmosphere of Smash Bros that makes it silly, not necessarily the characters themselves.

- Everyone can recognize the 1st gen pokemon, so why not have a memorable character appear in Brawl?

Because chances are we already have three first-generation pokemon in Brawl. Adding another first-gen isn't being fair to the rest of the series.

 

[poishrom]

i forgot about pichu "dang".

 

[_the_sandman_]

That's true sandman, but you forget that Blastoise/Venusaur/Charizard/Goldeen returned in Melee, and already Chikorita and Goldeen are returning in Brawl...

That may be true, but Totodile wasn't a pokeball item. So he might have a shot. Also we have the second and third gen lineup as well.

He can always remove a pokeball pokemon and make their lower forms a playable character too. He pretty much can do anything at this point.

 

[ClarkJables]

actually we only have 1 confirmed first gen pokemon so far, not 3. never assume anything with smash, because we don't know what sakurai will do yet. and as far a spokemon go i think we should only add pokemon that are signifigant to the series. lucario is signifigant to the series atm so i think he has a shot.

 

[Circus]

I don't want to clutter up thread space by quoting you, Anders Kaiser, but I'd like to say that you are glorious. I've agreed with pretty much everything you've said so far.

Expanding slightly on the point of Lucario's "look", I'd just like to say that I think he looks a helluva lot better than Blaziken and (especially) Deoxys. I only mention them because they seem to be the other front-runners based on the people on this board. I see the point about the spike in Lucario's chest and all that, and that's your prerogative, sandman. But he's perfectly tolerable to me. Much more so than Deoxys. I really think he's hideous.

 

[ClarkJables]

well deoxys is at'd and blaziken has extremely low chances in brawl. so lucario has the best chances out of the board so far. he might throw us a curve ball though, we don't know

 

[the grim lizard]

I find it funny how people exaggerate. Sakurai's never done anything that surprising in Smash. The only reason it surprises people is because they don't know everything. People were surprised with Falcon and Ness who'd never played F-Zero or EB. But, those who knew who they weren't taken aback.

Marth took US players by surprise because we didn't know who he was, but the Japanese basically expected him. ICs maybe were a surprise because we didn't know he'd go retro, and same with G&W...we just all forgot (or didn't know) about that character. But it's not like he did anything really surprising like put in Goku or anything before. In fact, the most shocking thing I've ever seen is that Snake would be in. Short of that, nothing else was really that big.

In short, I feel pretty confident in saying that I think Jiggs and M2 will return.

I think the main reason we're surprised so much is that we simply don't pay attention...

 

[poishrom]

That may be true, but Totodile wasn't a pokeball item. So he might have a shot. Also we have the second and third gen lineup as well.

He can always remove a pokeball pokemon and make their lower forms a playable character too. He pretty much can do anything at this point.

yeah but that would be dumb, oh lets say if he took out venasour and made him his first form bulbasour then that would make the other two still in poke balls. all im trying to say is that that would make brawl seem weird because all three of them wont be togeather like they were in the other ssb games, i dont think he will do that.

 

[_the_sandman_]

First of all, there's no law stating that each game can only focus on one generation. Personally I think that pokeball-wise they should include reps from all four generations, that would be the most balanced. As for including someone from Lucario over a 2nd or 3rd gen, Lucario is a very notable and popular non-starter and non-legendary. My memory's fuzzy on this, but were there any pokes from those generations that compare to Lucario and Mewtwo's unique position? And to say that Sakurai should focus entirely on the Ruby/Saph generation and ignore D/P doesn't make much sense. You're penalizing the game because it's the most recent? By the time another Smash Bros comes around, we'll be ahead another console cycle and likely have another one or two pokemon generations to look over. Your suggestion would create an eternal backlog, with Smash including pokemon that are years old. That's not very helpful for Smash Marketing.

So you're saying if a 4th gen pokemon didn't show up in the game that would hurt the Smash market? I hardly think so since everyone wants to buy this game. Pros, casual players, even new players, and even people who don't play smash want to get this game. Everyone wants to get this game, believe it or not.

I mean, its possible that a 4th gen could appear in a pokeball, but isn't that a stretch? The last time we had a "recent" character come to Smash was Roy!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_(Fire_Emblem)

I hate to bash Roy fans, but this is just disgraceful. Roy wasn't even in a game when Smash came out. He didn't deserve to be in Melee. Lucario is quite recent, and I'm sure the game was being made long before Pokemon P+D came out. Sure they could just jam him into the game now, but I'm pretty cetain all of the characters have been picked for a long time now.

Mario, Ice Climbers, Wario, Donkey Kong, Captain Falcon, Fox, Kirby, etc. have all appeared in several games before Smash was out. And they have appeared in more games before Brawl was announced. This game combinds all of the classic characters into one spot.

You could say we should have more recent characters, but the last time that happened we got another clone character who is basically completely ignored at this point.

 

[the grim lizard]

I kind of agree on the next gen. of pokemon being repped in Smash thing. I thought about this once myself. P&D is still too new IMO to be repped in Smash. They seem to lineup, and it wouldn't be fair to skim over the 3rd gen. just because Nintendo was anxious to get out another gen. of Pokemon...But who knows if he will or not. Personally, I think he will stick with 3rd gen. Pokeballs.

On another note...

Who's that guy on the bottom right side? The yellow Pokemon by the game title?...
Yeah, first gen isn't more important than the others...

 

[_the_sandman_]

I kind of agree on the next gen. of pokemon being repped in Smash thing. I thought about this once myself. P&D is still too new IMO to be repped in Smash. They seem to lineup, and it wouldn't be fair to skim over the 3rd gen. just because Nintendo was anxious to get out another gen. of Pokemon...But who knows if he will or not. Personally, I think he will stick with 3rd gen. Pokeballs.

On another note...

Who's that guy on the bottom right side? The yellow Pokemon by the game title?...
Yeah, first gen isn't more important than the others...

Usually when I get a starter Pokemon from any other game I compare them to the Blue/Red starters.

I don't know about you, but I do that for every Pokemon game. So far the original three are the best.

This cover is just more proof that the first gen is the most memorable!

 

[ClarkJables]

well most of first gen has died except for pikachu, meowth, and jigglypuff, which is a shame because it was the best of all of them. second gen wasn't that bad though. 3rd and 4th gen are rubbish though

 

[_the_sandman_]

well most of first gen has died except for pikachu, meowth, and jigglypuff, which is a shame because it was the best of all of them. second gen wasn't that bad though. 3rd and 4th gen are rubbish though

Well we still have poliwhirl, scyther, geodude, alakazam, muk, tentacool, zubat, oddish, blah blah blah the list goes on.

I agree though, the first was the best!

 

[Circus]

I kind of agree on the next gen. of pokemon being repped in Smash thing. I thought about this once myself. P&D is still too new IMO to be repped in Smash. They seem to lineup, and it wouldn't be fair to skim over the 3rd gen. just because Nintendo was anxious to get out another gen. of Pokemon...But who knows if he will or not. Personally, I think he will stick with 3rd gen. Pokeballs.

On another note...

Who's that guy on the bottom right side? The yellow Pokemon by the game title?...
Yeah, first gen isn't more important than the others...

I wouldn't say that the first gen is more important than the others, but Pikachu is. It's not like you see Caterpie on that box or anything.

Still, I do love the nostalgia of the first gen, when I was REALLY into pokemon.

 

[Anders Kaiser]

So you're saying if a 4th gen pokemon didn't show up in the game that would hurt the Smash market? I hardly think so since everyone wants to buy this game. Pros, casual players, even new players, and even people who don't play smash want to get this game. Everyone wants to get this game, believe it or not..

Lemme clarify. By "Smash Marketing" I was mostly referring to the effect opposite what you described. Think about what the appearances of Marth, Ness, Falcon, Pit, etc. did for people's knowledge of them. Lucario is already well-known and popular among Pokemon fan circles, but putting Lucario into brawl would rekindle interest in the 4th gen. games for those that haven't fully paid attention. If Lucario made an impressive showing, it could give a little sales boost to a game that's already a juggernaut. And as others have said already, Lucario was shown before the game came out. There's been plenty of time to work him into the game.

Roy, on the other hand, was a clone character, one whose game hadn't even been released before Melee came out. Fire Emblem fans weren't crazy about Roy's game, and the worlds shown in most FE games change over pretty quickly, so it's not surprising that Roy didn't last. Comparing him to a very popular pokemon from a game that's been out for months isn't really a valid comparison, especially now that Lucario will probably be playable in any new Pokemon installments.

And Grim Lizard, I'd say that even people that played Ice Climber back in the day were surprised when the ICs showed up. I expect a few surprises from this game, but it probably won't be overloaded with them. .

 

[Spartan_187]

Yes. the first Gen. Pokemon did go away. I still think Sakurai is focusing on mainly the third Gen. now. But that still does not mean that important Pokemon in the 4th Gen. will not be focused on as well. Oh, and everyone basically says that the first Gen. Pokemon are better because they grew up with them. Sorry I haven't been back in awhile.

 

[_the_sandman_]

Lemme clarify. By "Smash Marketing" I was mostly referring to the effect opposite what you described. Think about what the appearances of Marth, Ness, Falcon, Pit, etc. did for people's knowledge of them. Lucario is already well-known and popular among Pokemon fan circles, but putting Lucario into brawl would rekindle interest in the 4th gen. games for those that haven't fully paid attention. If Lucario made an impressive showing, it could give a little sales boost to a game that's already a juggernaut. And as others have said already, Lucario was shown before the game came out. There's been plenty of time to work him into the game.

Roy, on the other hand, was a clone character, one whose game hadn't even been released before Melee came out. Fire Emblem fans weren't crazy about Roy's game, and the worlds shown in most FE games change over pretty quickly, so it's not surprising that Roy didn't last. Comparing him to a very popular pokemon from a game that's been out for months isn't really a valid comparison, especially now that Lucario will probably be playable in any new Pokemon installments.

And Grim Lizard, I'd say that even people that played Ice Climber back in the day were surprised when the ICs showed up. I expect a few surprises from this game, but it probably won't be overloaded with them. .

I did buy Roy's game, but I returned it cause it was pretty awful in my opinion. Actually I wasn't that excited about the Fire Emblem series because for the most part it was targeted towards Japan since its Japan only.

Besides, the new Pokemon game came out in America in like, April. You don't think people are still going out and buying it? You think they'll notice it just because Brawl had Lucario? Lucario isn't going to bring that much money in like the Iceclimbers can.

If they want to make money for the market they'll announce old characters for the next Smash game like Balloon Fighter, that way when his game appears on Virtual Console everyone will want to try it out. Look at what Pit has done so far, once he was announced for Brawl his game appeared on the Virtual Console. That's their best bet if they want to make money, bring back the classics!


And people like you are such killjoys when you say, "I expect a few surprises from this game". Every update is a surprise to me! Knuckle Joe, Samus's Final, Bridge of Eldin, and the Footstool Stomp all come as a surprise to me! How can this game lack any surprise to you? Just because Lucario hasn't been announced doesn't mean the game is boring! We've been waiting six years for this game, and I've been enjoying every update Sakurai has presented to us.

The fact Brawl will be in my hands this December, is in fact the biggest surprise of all!

 

[Spartan_187]

I did buy Roy's game, but I returned it cause it was pretty awful in my opinion. Actually I wasn't that excited about the Fire Emblem series because for the most part it was targeted towards Japan since its Japan only.

Besides, the new Pokemon game came out in America in like, April. You don't think people are still going out and buying it? You think they'll notice it just because Brawl had Lucario? Lucario isn't going to bring that much money in like the Iceclimbers can.

If they want to make money for the market they'll announce old characters for the next Smash game like Balloon Fighter, that way when his game appears on Virtual Console everyone will want to try it out. Look at what Pit has done so far, once he was announced for Brawl his game appeared on the Virtual Console. That's their best bet if they want to make money, bring back the classics!


And people like you are such killjoys when you say, "I expect a few surprises from this game". Every update is a surprise to me! Knuckle Joe, Samus's Final, Bridge of Eldin, and the Footstool Stomp all come as a surprise to me! How can this game lack any surprise to you? Just because Lucario hasn't been announced doesn't mean the game is boring! We've been waiting six years for this game, and I've been enjoying every update Sakurai has presented to us.

The fact Brawl will be in my hands this December, is in fact the biggest surprise of all!

Oh, unfortunately the Ice Climbers didn't bring much money into the SSBM game because no one knew they were actually in it untill they bought it.. Lucario can bring more money because people actualy expect him to be in it.

 

[Anders Kaiser]

I don't know how you could've bought Roy's game unless you imported it....FE6 only came out in Japan. You're probably thinking of FE7, which featured Roy's father Eliwood as the main character. I know it's probably splitting hairs, but I'm a stickler for details like that. :D

......I didn't mean to say that I haven't been surprised by updates yet. That was mostly meant in reference to playable characters that I wasn't expecting and didn't seem likely. I know very well that the game isn't boring, and have been pleasantly surprised by what they've shown so far. I think you're overreacting to my comment a little bit.

...I will admit, though, that I wasn't surprised by the release date announcement. I predicted December 3rd like a year ago to some friends of mine. Just sayin'.

 

[the grim lizard]

I don't disagree that every update is a surprise and enjoyable, but my point is that people act like Sakurai is going to go completely off the wall and put something completely random in. I mean, we still kind of know some things. He either tells us or he hints at things or whatever...

Edit: You know Dec. 3rd is when Melee came out, right?

 

[ClarkJables]

Oh, unfortunately the Ice Climbers didn't bring much money into the SSBM game because no one knew they were actually in it untill they bought it.. Lucario can bring more money because people actualy expect him to be in it.

people on this board expect him to get in, and i think the game will be an ultra mega seller whether lucario is in it or not

 

[Spartan_187]

people on this board expect him to get in, and i think the game will be an ultra mega seller whether lucario is in it or not

Yeah, I guess your correct about that. Good thought, ClarkJables. Because there will be at LEAST one character every induvidual person wants that will be in it.

 

[_the_sandman_]

I don't know how you could've bought Roy's game unless you imported it....FE6 only came out in Japan. You're probably thinking of FE7, which featured Roy's father Eliwood as the main character. I know it's probably splitting hairs, but I'm a stickler for details like that. :D

......I didn't mean to say that I haven't been surprised by updates yet. That was mostly meant in reference to playable characters that I wasn't expecting and didn't seem likely. I know very well that the game isn't boring, and have been pleasantly surprised by what they've shown so far. I think you're overreacting to my comment a little bit.

...I will admit, though, that I wasn't surprised by the release date announcement. I predicted December 3rd like a year ago to some friends of mine. Just sayin'.

Ah, you're probably right about playing as Roy's father.

Sorry about the explosion to the surprise comment. Its just I have delt with so many people before that thought Brawl was going a terrible game. I feared that you might have been one of them.

Well... I did predict a Zelda/Shiek transformation, Bowser, and Ganondorf. As well as an Adventure Mode. And my friend predicted a Final Smash loooooong ago. When it comes to predictions we usually are close. We have been in the past.

 

[Spartan_187]

What predictions does anyone know that has a high chance to be in brawl besides characters? Mine's the HRC coming back. Sandbag and all.

 

[ClarkJables]

well im glad the bumper came back, so i am hoping to see a graphically updated version of the original mario level from ssb64

 

[_the_sandman_]

The Bumper was a plesant surprise, and I would really like to see the Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon levels from 64 return. Kongo Jungle and Yoshi Story were good picks, but Kirby's level seemed repetative.

But back to the thread. I'm going to bring back my list of "should be" pokemon for Brawl. As well as a link to a very old thread I did.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=71710

Yes, that is a Ditto for Brawl thread. Ditto would be an amazing character since he would be random character per every stock. Kind of like Charade from Soul Calibur 2. Only the best players in the world could use such a character seriously.

Here's a list update, do any of these older gens seem worthy for Brawl? I'll star the ones I prefer the most.

*Squirtle
Charmander
Meowth
*Poliwhirl
Totodile
Marill
*Treecko
Torchic
Sceptile
Blaziken

For the most part, the more humanoid the character is would mean they would actually have a decent moveset.

I remember seeing lots of comments about a Pulse/Minun combo like Iceclimbers. I personally am not a fan of this for two reasons. 1.) Pichu was a disgrace to the Pokemon team 2.) Ice Climbers are unique because there are two of them, don't take away their glory!

Poliwhirl WOULD be cool though, and believe it or not he was extremely popular back in the day. Water, Fighting, and Psychic moves all rolled into one character! What could go wrong? Water gun, Bubble, Hydro Pump, Body Slam, Hypnosis, Psychic, Double Slap, Submission, and Mega Punch can all be given to this character's moveset!

 

[ClarkJables]

polywhirl would be mega pwnage, but i think he's complete randomness as far as pokemon selection goes would lower his chances drastically

 

[bored]

As far as Lucario goes I have no idea who would fill mewtwos position... other than deoxys but he is an AT -_-

 

[_the_sandman_]

I think Mewtwo deserves another chance, its not his fault the game was rushed into the making and they didn't test him out enough to realize he was terrible. Just beef up his defense and Mewtwo can become a lot better for Brawl.

There will be changes!

 

[bored]

The only character I thought was rushed was Pichu...

 

[skullkidd]

i can't believe some of you people think that the fourth generation will just be skipped over because this isn't the forth smash game yet, and that it will only go up to the third generation because 'they haven't had a turn yet.'

i can pretty much guarantee that the fourth generation will be in brawl.

when brawl comes out, diamond and pearl will have been released for a year.

SSB is about representing nintendo.
both recently and old school.

all four generations of pokemon will definitely be in pokeballs, simple as that.

as for playable characters, we will just have to see who comes along.

 

[ClarkJables]

i agree with skullkid on this one

 

[kaid]

I expect 100+ pokeball pokemon, plus an equal number of ATs.

That's more than enough to include all 12 starters, the 4 legendary trios, The Event Legendarys (Mew, Celebii, Jiraichi, Deoxys, Manphy and it's baby, Darkrai, Aruzeus and a few others) and all the other legendaries from the 2nd, 3rd and 4th gen, AND include reps from all 4 generations of normal pokemon.

 

[ClarkJables]

i could see that, except for the fact that now that we have AT's the number of pokeball could be cut down drastically from 100+ to maybe 60+

 

[skullkidd]

I expect 100+ pokeball pokemon, plus an equal number of ATs.

That's more than enough to include all 12 starters, the 4 legendary trios, The Event Legendarys (Mew, Celebii, Jiraichi, Deoxys, Manphy and it's baby, Darkrai, Aruzeus and a few others) and all the other legendaries from the 2nd, 3rd and 4th gen, AND include reps from all 4 generations of normal pokemon.

I'm thinking your right, in the 90s for pokeballs would be great...
and probobly even more that that for ATs

 

[PrinnyFlute]

This just in: This thread is ridiculous! 14 pages of debunking broken arguments and still nobody changes their tune. Now I know how the folks in the Waluigi thread must feel.

Recap:

Lucario and 4th gen are 'popular' judging by numbers: game sales and merchandising opportunities.

Sakurai nor Nintendo cares about 'representing generations.' NOWHERE in any Nintendo literature, press, anything, do they make a big to-do about each lump of pokemon being highly different and deserving of seperate consideration. The ONLY time a generation gets big rep is when it's new. Not because they're 'fairly treating each one,' but because it's just NEW.

Rerecap: NOBODY CARES ABOUT GENERATION NUMBERS. Once a new wave comes out, they are NOT categorically seperated and filtered for proper consideration, they are thrown in the big EFFING pot with the OTHER 9,000,000 POKEMON.

AAAAAGAIN: Pikachu, Mewtwo, and Jigglypuff are not 'first gen rep.' They're just big icons from pokemon's heyday. Pichu is not 'second gen rep,' it's just Pikachu...but CUTER! Lucario isn't SO GREAT THAT HE OVERCOMES GENERATIONAL BARRIERS OMG. He's just what most people think is the most likely choice for Brawl out of all 500 whatever.

Worse case scenario: Lucario is a Luigi'd Fox. OH GOD NO. Cry me a freaking river. He WOULDN'T end up that way ANYWAY, but come ON. It is NOT that horrible of a possibility.

And last of all. It's nice that you don't like how Lucario looks. It's nice that someone who's posted is an art student who doesn't like how Lucario looks. Guess what: I'm an art student, and I do like how he looks. Many people buying movies and plushies do like how he looks.

It's great that we all have our opinions, but please. Don't come up with a bunch of nonsensical junk just because you don't like him.

End of post prediction:

Five pages later and everyone's still arguing about generational representation and how ugly they think Lucario is.

Let's see if THAT one comes true, huh?

 

[poishrom]

wow, i hope your right.