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The Most Controversial Thread on the Site! (Originally the Anti-Lucario/Pro Squirtle)

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Shuma

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Also, Dark Samus is NOT Samus, how the hell can he(yes HE) be a clone of Samus?
 

_the_sandman_

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Well Ness and Paual can be very different despite the fact they are both psychic.

Ness
B - PK Flash
>B - PK Rockin
VB - PK Paralysis
^B - PK Teleport

Paula
B - PK Ice
>B - PK Fire
VB - PSI Magnet
^B - PK Thunder

B moves alone they are different. Plus Ness uses a baseball bat, and Paula uses a frying pan.
--------------------------------------------------------------

We need personality, and Black Knight seems too souless for me still. No expression on the guy. We have enough characters that have no or little expression, why add another in? But like I said if he has a good moveset then I'm fine with him.

And I guess over time I'm seeing other's view for Diddy. I just wish there was something else that could be added for him to make him stand out. I guess we could have, yet another, speedy athletic character....


Also what is up with all of the demands for villains? Bad Guys are great and all, but if you're adding them in just because a hero is around, then that doesn't really mean you want them. You just want the idea that a bad guy should be in the game because the hero is there. Starfox, Fire Emblem, F-Zero, DK, and Earthbound could all survive if their villains weren't playable. I'm just saying this because the idea of more villains is just king of redundant at this point.

Kirby could have two villains from his game, but people overlook that idea. People (including myself) say Ike should have a villain, even though he is brand new. Wolf is a rival, which is different than a villain. And what about Wario? Wasn't he a villain at some point? Actually, wasn't DK a villain at some point? How did everyone forget about Bowser, Mewtwo, and Ganondorf? Seriously, we have enough villain-like characters (Including the possible Wolf).

Quit asking for villains.... we have enough, or will be getting enough in no time.
 

Jordo

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I agree with you to an extent on the Black Knight. Simply put the Black Knight is a poorer choice for FE than others. He looks more like a chaser from the Kingdom Hearts 3 video than anything else. So he has a large sword and extreme beef with Ike because he killed his Daddy? So what? I imagine him being Ike in slow mo. Too similar, so you control him in FE10, which hasn't even hit states yet, even then barely. His projected moveset can't even excite me. Give me Siguard or Marth before the Black Knight.
 

Bassoonist

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So are you saying that King Dedede shouldn't be in the game? That Metaknight should be Kirby's villain?

I haven't played a lot of the recent Kirby games, or even watched the anime, however it's always seemed to me that Metaknight was more a rival, and that King Dedede has always been a true villain, or at least more so then Metaknight.

(If you aren't saying that then you don't have to respond.)
 

Shuma

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...


You do know Sakurai whant's to add more villains? Besides The Black Knight, Dedede, Ridley and WOlf would make PERFECT additions to the Brawl roster.

Or am i Wrong? you might whant something diferent, but if you haven't noticed all Fighthing Games follow a formula, Smash Bros is already diferent with Pokemon Trainer, Ice Climbers, etc.

Besides, If Sakurai is going to add villains for Star Fox and FE who else could it be? Andross? King Ashnard is a no-no, The Black Knight would be way easyer to do, and he's clearly more popular than the King.
 

Bassoonist

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Question... what does Luigi bring to Smash bros, that noone else does?
What does he need to bring? He's the second most important Mario character! He has to be in, he's Mario's brother.

So much could be done to differentiate him in Brawl.
 

Stryks

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Ok 1st u say smash has only characters with expressions, and then I say: what about samus??

u ignore that and then u say smash has TOO MANY characters without expressions... and thus why add one more?

ok:
1) make up your mind will ya?
and
2) we only have samus, GAW, who dont show expressions, how is that too many??

I'll just see how all of this continues by 2morrow to answer, can't right now since im on my wii...
 

_the_sandman_

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I agree with you to an extent on the Black Knight. Simply put the Black Knight is a poorer choice for FE than others. He looks more like a chaser from the Kingdom Hearts 3 video than anything else. So he has a large sword and extreme beef with Ike because he killed his Daddy? So what? I imagine him being Ike in slow mo. Too similar, so you control him in FE10, which hasn't even hit states yet, even then barely. His projected moveset can't even excite me. Give me Siguard or Marth before the Black Knight.
Well I read your essay. And I agree with you when you say Diddy deserves to be in Brawl. Diddy has appeared in enough of his own games to get a spot in Brawl.

After reading your essay, I think I'm going to edit my Diddy part of the thread. People are getting the wrong message when I say Diddy might not be in Brawl. I WANT Diddy to be in Brawl, but I also want him to have a good unique moveset.

There is a audition line forming for the Brawl listings. Diddy really has to do something to stand out from the rest. So maybe him being quick and nimble would be useful? Maybe peanut popguns, a jetpack, and guitar would be new weapons. But after reading your essay, as well as everyone's posts. I've come to a conclusion that will make everyone happy.

Personality!

If Diddy can give us 100% personality, then he will have a much greater chance in Brawl. If every attack has an over-the-top attitude then he WILL be a GREAT character! Many attacks are souless, a standard punch, a standard kick, no emotion. But if Diddy is overdramatic with all of his attacks, cartwheels, jetback, guitars, etc. Then he WILL stand out from the rest!

That is what Smash desperately needs... personality! And if Diddy can give us 100% then and only then will he stand out from the rest.

Good work everyone (and Jordo with the essay) all of you have given me enough facts to not doubt Diddy anymore. I now don't feel as indifferent about him, I now actually WANT to see him in Brawl. I'm going to go change my first page about him now!
 

Stryks

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ZOMG SANDMAN BUT ADDING DIDDY TO YOUR OK 4 BRAWL LIST WILL SHATTER UR THEORY, CAUSE HE DIDN'T APPEARED IN JUNGLE BEATS111!!1

that means EVERYTHING u said about WW Link not getting in cause of only TP Rep is getting in brawl fails!

u FAIL
 

Kunitsuna

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the_sandman_ said:
Ness
B - PK Flash
>B - PK Rockin
VB - PK Paralysis
^B - PK Teleport

Paula
B - PK Ice
>B - PK Fire
VB - PSI Magnet
^B - PK Thunder

B moves alone they are different. Plus Ness uses a baseball bat, and Paula uses a frying pan.
PSI Rockin´ would definitely be a Final Smash due to its power. PK Paralysis and Teleport would respectively end up being very similar to Mewtwo´s Disable and Teleport.

And Paula is Ness with an extra move added. Peach tends to use Frying Pans too.

The point here is that Earthbound isn´t fair representation of the MOTHER franchise in its entirety. You´re missing out on the many colorful characters that MOTHER3 has to offer.

We need personality, and Black Knight seems too souless for me still. No expression on the guy. We have enough characters that have no or little expression, why add another in? But like I said if he has a good moveset then I'm fine with him.
Because he´s important, popular, requested in polls...you and me don´t decide who gets worldwide support and who doesn´t, the world does.

But if emotion is that much of an issue to you,
they could have the Black Knight appear without his heavy armor, showing his face, as he appears in Goddess of Dawn (known as Zelgius).

And I guess over time I'm seeing other's view for Diddy. I just wish there was something else that could be added for him to make him stand out. I guess we could have, yet another, speedy athletic character....
Because he´s important, popular, requested in polls...you and me don´t decide who gets worldwide support and who doesn´t, the world does.

Honestly, it´s exactly the same case. I´m sorry if you don´t see SSBB´s roster of probables to be different enough for your tastes. If it were up to me, I would make a lot of changes as well. But unfortunately it isn´t, and thus we´re forced to face what is most certain to happen. Diddy Kong deserves to be in Brawl, and he probably will be in it. Just like the Black Knight, although he´s not as safe a bet in my opinion.

Also what is up with all of the demands for villains? Bad Guys are great and all, but if you're adding them in just because a hero is around, then that doesn't really mean you want them. You just want the idea that a bad guy should be in the game because the hero is there. Starfox, Fire Emblem, F-Zero, DK, and Earthbound could all survive if their villains weren't playable. I'm just saying this because the idea of more villains is just king of redundant at this point.
Villains are in vogue because of the Subspace Emissary. It´s clear that if the heroes of franchises are going to experience their personal histories and face their burdens they will most likely encounter their foes as well, which ups the chances of many villains in villain-lacking franchises.

It´s not a redundant idea, however, when you consider that there are more heroes than villains confirmed for SSBB at this point. If anything it brings balance of some form.

Kirby could have two villains from his game, but people overlook that idea. People (including myself) say Ike should have a villain, even though he is brand new. Wolf is a rival, which is different than a villain. And what about Wario? Wasn't he a villain at some point? Actually, wasn't DK a villain at some point? How did everyone forget about Bowser, Mewtwo, and Ganondorf? Seriously, we have enough villain-like characters (Including the possible Wolf).
What? Wait, no. Aside from the fact that you just said Fire Emblem will survive if a villain isn´t playable, then turn around and scream ASHNARD, let´s look at the as-of-now confirmed characters for Super Smash Bros. Brawl.

- Mario
- Peach
- Bowser
- Link
- Zelda
- Pikachu
- Pokémon Trainer
- Kirby
- Meta Knight
- Samus
- Zero-Suit Samus
- Pit
- Wario
- Snake
- Donkey Kong
- Yoshi
- Fox

Mario and Peach are good guys, no discussion there. Just like how Bowser is certainly bad. Link and Zelda, good guys. Pikachu, if you wanna get really technical, isn´t good or bad because it´s just a wild species of Pokémon, but is generally recognized to accompain the hero of the story (the Pokémon Trainer) in his/her adventures, which is also the case in the anime, and thus goes to the hero side. Kirby´s a hero and Meta Knight is neutral, as he has both helped and hindered Kirby throughout his adventures. Both versions of Samus are good, so is Pit. Wario used to be a villain, but in his current games he fights his own enemies and turns out to be the hero of the story, although because of his values one could consider him an anti-hero at best. Snake is definitely a hero, and while Donkey Kong used to be evil the last time that happened was so long ago it´s stupid to not recognize him for the hero he is today. Yoshi has always assisted Mario, and Fox is the hero of his story.

So this is how it breaks down.

HEROES:
- Mario
- Peach
- Link
- Zelda
- Pikachu
- Pokémon Trainer
- Kirby
- Samus
- Zero-Suit Samus
- Pit
- Snake
- Donkey Kong
- Yoshi
- Fox

VILLAINS:
- Bowser

NEITHER:
- Meta Knight (vigilante)
- Wario (anti-hero)

EVEN IF we throw in the almost-guaranteed returning veterans from SSBM, we get this.

HEROES:
- Mario
- Luigi
- Peach
- Link
- Zelda
- Pikachu
- Pokémon Trainer
- Kirby
- Samus
- Zero-Suit Samus
- Pit
- Snake
- Donkey Kong
- Yoshi
- Fox
- Captain Falcon
- Ness or Lucas

VILLAINS:
- Bowser
- Ganondorf

NEITHER:
- Meta Knight (vigilante)
- Wario (anti-hero)
- Jigglypuff (doesn´t really care)

Do you still think we couldn´t use some more villains?

Quit asking for villains.... we have enough, or will be getting enough in no time.
Lulz. The only guaranteed villain I can think of is King Dedede, and even if we throw a returning Mewtwo in there the good guys still dwarf the bad.
 

Jordo

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Stryks chill out man, Wind Waker Link still has an uphill battle. Refer back to my wind waker link post on the previous page 80.

Glad to see you understand Sandman. I hope Diddy makes it in Brawl too. The only three characters I really wanted added to the roster were metaknight, pokemon trainer, and diddy. Two have made it thus far, I'm hoping for a hat trick.
 

IllidR

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ZOMG SANDMAN BUT ADDING DIDDY TO YOUR OK 4 BRAWL LIST WILL SHATTER UR THEORY, CAUSE HE DIDN'T APPEARED IN JUNGLE BEATS111!!1

that means EVERYTHING u said about WW Link not getting in cause of only TP Rep is getting in brawl fails!

u FAIL
Stryker all you've been doing is bashing Sandman, that's why he's ignoring you.. so chill. Plus Windwaker Link I don't think either would be a good addition or has great chances of getting in. He would be very similar to twilight princess link with, what i thought, was the worst look they've given link.

And as for the black knight argument, i'd rather see him in his full suit of armor. Just because he doesn't display personality doesn't mean he can't be in.
 

IllidR

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Black Knight blows, his projected moveset blows, it's like ganondorf with a 10 inch ****.
Projected movesets mean nothing, no one in their right minds projected Pokemon trainers moveset did they. And Black Knight is waaay cooler than Ganondorf, he wasn't even good enough to get his own moveset!:laugh:
 

Croco

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Well what are we going to do until then? Debate!
How about writing up a list of your hopefuls or ideas.. Then over time we can cross out or check off stuff that is officially announced.

What is the point of debating over a character when we have absolutely no contact with Sakurai or even any word of who gets in the game?

Debating over character would be like debating over what a painter is going to paint next.. :urg:
You just don't know how it will come out because you don't have the ****ing brush in your hand.


I've already written up my own list of items, stages, music, and characters I would love to see in Brawl. They don't HAVE to be in Brawl.. I just hope they are.

So every time another thing on my list of stuff I want is confirmed.. I check it off and smile.
 

Jordo

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Alright, then Black Night looks like Ganondorf, who sucked, with an 8 foot extra reach, which sucks. He also strikes an amazing resemblance to a character from the Soul Calibur series by the name of Nightmare. Nightmare sucked because of his broken reach and strength. If Black Night became the Nightmare of Brawl, Sakurai would have to contact Namco to barrow Killik because he's the only guy in the gaming world who can get close to Nightmare or any Nightmare wannabe.
 

_the_sandman_

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Kunitsuna...

I think more villains being added is a good thing. But it shouldn't be the only reason why they should be added. I guess my bad explaination is what caused the confusion. Also I consider Metaknight to be more of a villain because he attempted to take over Dream Land in Kirby Super Star. Also he never gets along with Kirby, those two are always fighting each other. Be he has been shown to be actually good, Squeak Squad for example he attempted to protect the case with Dark Matter so Kirby wouldn't open it.

As for Ness and Paula, two Earthbound characters are enough to represent the franchise. If the series is unpopular as everyone says it is, then having two characters from the most known Mother game shouldn't be a problem. Heck, we can even still just have Ness to represent the Mother franchise. Ness deserves to stay, not Lucas replacing him. Those two are too similar to stand side by side in my opinion. Just like Marth and Ike.

As for Black Knight, they should make his "alternative" character playable. Its too big of a shock in my opinion. It would be weird to have a secret ruined like that as a playable character. Hmm... but who should the other FE character be? So many choices...

Though you're right about Subspace Emissary. If more characters are going to see their foes that means we WOULD be seeing more villains. So that actually improves Wolf's chance for being in Brawl. That's a very good point you have there. I'll think about how that would effect other characters for the time being....

----------------------

Stryks....

I'm allowed to be proven wrong. And I'm allowed to change my opinion about a character. I still stand by my theory, because its been accurate so far. Until its proven wrong I'm still going to keep some faith in it.

Also you need to calm down. This is just a forum site.

----------------------------------------

Conker 1....


I love the Lucario picture! If you ever remake it, say his hair looks like a bad wig! Hahaha!
 

IllidR

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How about writing up a list of your hopefuls or ideas.. Then over time we can cross out or check off stuff that is officially announced.

What is the point of debating over a character when we have absolutely no contact with Sakurai or even any word of who gets in the game?

Debating over character would be like debating over what a painter is going to paint next.. :urg:
You just don't know how it will come out because you don't have the ****ing brush in your hand.


I've already written up my own list of items, stages, music, and characters I would love to see in Brawl. They don't HAVE to be in Brawl.. I just hope they are.

So every time another thing on my list of stuff I want is confirmed.. I check it off and smile.
It's whole fun of the forum, of course it has no outcome on what is going to happen.. but some just like to get their opinions across and debate others who differ. There are MANY MANY spots on the forum where there are lists and predictions, so you can go check out those, but even those have their opinions on why they think so-and-so will be a character. And others respond with their own ideas. I'm debating you right now on debating.. it's all a part of forum life.
 

kaid

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There is a audition line forming for the Brawl listings. Diddy really has to do something to stand out from the rest. So maybe him being quick and nimble would be useful? Maybe peanut popguns, a jetpack, and guitar would be new weapons. But after reading your essay, as well as everyone's posts. I've come to a conclusion that will make everyone happy.

Personality!

If Diddy can give us 100% personality, then he will have a much greater chance in Brawl. If every attack has an over-the-top attitude then he WILL be a GREAT character! Many attacks are souless, a standard punch, a standard kick, no emotion. But if Diddy is overdramatic with all of his attacks, cartwheels, jetback, guitars, etc. Then he WILL stand out from the rest!

That is what Smash desperately needs... personality! And if Diddy can give us 100% then and only then will he stand out from the rest.
So if personality is what is impartant for characters, I point to the 8th pokemon movie once again. Lucario's personality expresses significantly more depth than any other pokemon, not in the least because he has understandable motovations, a tragic history, and force of will.
 

_the_sandman_

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So if personality is what is impartant for characters, I point to the 8th pokemon movie once again. Lucario's personality expresses significantly more depth than any other pokemon, not in the least because he has understandable motovations, a tragic history, and force of will.
But we already have that with Mewtwo.... except Mewtwo is better since he wants to destroy the world for what the humans have done to Pokemon, as well as what they have done to him.
 

RDK

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You do know Sakurai whant's to add more villains? Besides The Black Knight, Dedede, Ridley and WOlf would make PERFECT additions to the Brawl roster.

Or am i Wrong? you might whant something diferent, but if you haven't noticed all Fighthing Games follow a formula, Smash Bros is already diferent with Pokemon Trainer, Ice Climbers, etc.

Besides, If Sakurai is going to add villains for Star Fox and FE who else could it be? Andross? King Ashnard is a no-no, The Black Knight would be way easyer to do, and he's clearly more popular than the King.
Dedede, Ridley, and Wolf I'm fine with. But the Black Knight just doesn't do it for me. Bring back Marth or someone else from FE. Or maybe not even someone else from FE--I'd like to see Isaac or Felix from GS than the Black Night. Cloud Strife would be going a little too far, but a guy can dream.

And who ever said he was going to add a villian for FE? Nobody.
 

IllidR

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But we already have that with Mewtwo.... except Mewtwo is better since he wants to destroy the world for what the humans have done to Pokemon, as well as what they have done to him.
And everyone can agree that Mewtwo was a much more "epic" pokemon so to say. First introduced as this mysterious pokemon bound in armor with the ability to blow your mind. Later they find out about his escape from Giovanni's clutches and uncover a plot to destroy the world. It was AWESOME. Lucario was good but couldn't recreate the feel Mewtwo gave.

Dedede, Ridley, and Wolf I'm fine with. But the Black Knight just doesn't do it for me. Bring back Marth or someone else from FE. Or maybe not even someone else from FE--I'd like to see Isaac or Felix from GS than the Black Night. Cloud Strife would be going a little too far, but a guy can dream.

And who ever said he was going to add a villian for FE? Nobody.
We said he SHOULD add a villain from Fire Emblem. With the new adventure mode, each character is taken further into their background and most likely will have to deal with an inner-problem or perhaps a villain? So why not, he is a perfect edition, being an enemy of Ike.
 

_the_sandman_

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If there are 3 Fire Emblem character and one was a villain would be fine. But if there are two then there shouldn't be a villain. Two or three to represent Fire Emblem is enough. Any more wouldn't make sense.

The hero amount shouldn't be equal to the villain amount, but thats just me. The only character that can break this rule is Kirby since he apparently has a hard time making any worthwhile friends. Actually his foes in certain games are his allies....
 

Jordo

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K Rool would be an abomination to the Brawl Roster. It's Like Bowser and throwing his crown would be like Link's boomerang. That's about it.
 

Kabyk-Greenmyst

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I'm not even going to try with the WW Link argument anymore, I'm done, it's been done to death and no one is budging from their side of the debate. (WW Link doesn't equal TP Link)

I STILL don't understand how any of you can follow the idea that the characters in the Fire Emblem section of the roster are ALL from FE9 and FE10. The Castle Siege stage ***** THAT IDEA IN THE ***. If they were all going to be in Ike's world, Tellius and such, the FE stage would've been from Ike's game, but it's not, it's generic, and represents the Fire Emblem series as a whole.

Whether you like it or not, the next FE character is NOT from Ike's world. Get used to it.
 

_the_sandman_

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I didn't even know there were K. Roll supporters.... ah good times...

As for the FE castle level. In my opinion its generic because you see so many castles throughout the game. Sakurai said it wasn't from a particular game because if he said it was Ashnard's castle then everyone would be saying "OMG ASHNARD FOR BRAWL" even though it wasn't announced he was in. If he was in though, revealing the castle name would ruin the surprise. I mean Sakurai has so many secrets with that level that he didn't even reveal the bottom part of it.


If anyone is going to verse Mewtwo its going to be Trainer or Pikachu. Mewtwo doesn't even know who Lucario is. It would be very awkward if they met.

Mewtwo: I will destroy the world!
Lucario: I will stop you!
Mewtwo: Who are you supposed to be?
Lucario: I don't even know anymore....
 

RDK

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i'm guessing most of this lucario hate is comin from ppl gettin pissed over the fact that he got popular over one movie, no?
I'm really against Lucario getting in. I mean seriously. Diamond / Pearl just came out. He's in one movie, and already people are like "ZOMG LUCARIO FOR BRAWL!!!"

He's not even an appealing Pokemon in the least. He doesn't even look cool. At least M2 has a "cool" factor about him, despite the fact that he's low-tier.

I guess I'm just not going to be happy if they stick in another Pokemon character. They already have Pikachu and the suck-*** Pokemon Trainer. All they need to do now is bring back a de-nerfed M2 and Jiggs, and all will be well with the world.
 

Kirby knight

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I'm really against Lucario getting in. I mean seriously. Diamond / Pearl just came out. He's in one movie, and already people are like "ZOMG LUCARIO FOR BRAWL!!!"

Is it wrong to be popular? The reason why Lucario is getting so much attention is because of his movie. If the movie was awful in its portraying of Lucario perhaps he wouldn't have such a rabid fanbase.

He's not even an appealing Pokemon in the least. He doesn't even look cool. At least M2 has a "cool" factor about him, despite the fact that he's low-tier.

Your opinion; although it is somewhat worded that it could seem it could be fact. It's not.

I guess I'm just not going to be happy if they stick in another Pokemon character. They already have Pikachu and the suck-*** Pokemon Trainer. All they need to do now is bring back a de-nerfed M2 and Jiggs, and all will be well with the world.
Honestly it seems as if Lucario has the same factors for being in brawl as Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff was put into SSB because she was popular in Japan at that time. At this time in the D/P gen Lucario is one of the most popular pokemon right now; Munchlax follows up second because he hasn't been as hyped up as Lucario.
 

kaid

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I didn't even know there were K. Roll supporters.... ah good times...

As for the FE castle level. In my opinion its generic because you see so many castles throughout the game. Sakurai said it wasn't from a particular game because if he said it was Ashnard's castle then everyone would be saying "OMG ASHNARD FOR BRAWL" even though it wasn't announced he was in. If he was in though, revealing the castle name would ruin the surprise. I mean Sakurai has so many secrets with that level that he didn't even reveal the bottom part of it.


If anyone is going to verse Mewtwo its going to be Trainer or Pikachu. Mewtwo doesn't even know who Lucario is. It would be very awkward if they met.

Mewtwo: I will destroy the world!
Lucario: I will stop you!
Mewtwo: Who are you supposed to be?
Lucario: I don't even know anymore....
You are forgetting that they have a friend in common.

Mewtwo: I will destroy the world, because humans were mean to me!
Lucario: I will stop you, because even though humans were mean to me too, I have a responcibility to protect life!
Mew: MEW!

*begin Mewtwo vs Lucario battle with all pokeballs having Mew*
 

Kirby knight

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 10, 2006
Messages
1,479
Location
Pennsylvania
A Lucario vs Mewtwo battle would be awesome. however I also want to get into the matter of the Black Knight being considered for inclusion for brawl.

One of my reason that I doubt the Black Knight will be in is that FE9 is already getting rep'd by Ike. Seeing two characters from the same game doesn't seem fair too the other games in the Fire Emblem series. I'd much rather see Hector or Lyndis; Sigurd and Marth than the Black Knight.

I mean alot of the opinions that I've seen only want the Black Knight in for a Ike vs Black Knight showdown.
 

RDK

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
6,390
@Kirby Knight

Wow. You edited my post in red? WTF?


Think much?

@Kaid

LOL, I like your battle description. And I don't see why K. Rool is hated so fervently. He'd be a better addition than Pokemon Trainer or Lucario, IMO.

As long as this thread is talking about multiple characters for Brawl, you should all take a sec and go over to the Bomberman thread and take a look at my sprite moveset. I worked hard on it. ;)
 
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