The MK Legal Ruleset Discussion

[Tesh]

bbrawl had a hack for that, but u need a way to enforce it without a ref or hacks.

 

[JTsm]

The players themselves can judge whether or not his opponent went over the limit. Plus, you can go back to the replays and see. Obviously you'll need hacks if the game went over the 3 minute limit... Oh wells just something I was thinking about.

 

[Kaffei]

The players themselves can judge whether or not his opponent went over the limit. Plus, you can go back to the replays and see. Obviously you'll need hacks if the game went over the 3 minute limit... Oh wells just something I was thinking about.

You don't even need to count or look at the replays.
At the end of every match, it shows a list of things and one of them says how many times you grabbed the ledge.

 

[JTsm]

Does it show how many time you grabbed the ledge each time you recovered, or does it just show how many times you grabbed the ledge overall? I'm not concerned with overall how many times, I'm concerned with how many times you grab the ledge per recovery.

 

[Mew2King]

This is also quite dumb. It was banned by the URC based on a public opinion poll, which itself had more to do with overcentralization than the character actually being broken (again, metaknight is not even remotely broken with an LGL; he's simply the best in the game and has the most top players playing him, although this only applies in the USA).

that

the old ruleset we've been using PAST TWO YEARS with LGL is FINE. I would actually go as far as to say that Melee might be better off with a LGL too because of Jigglypuff and possibly sheik. Hax's falcon and jman's fox's are both better than my jigglypuff is, yet i was able to 4 stock both of them with jigglypuff by getting the lead vs them and planking them. There is no LGL in that game, but I think there should be. Brawl there definitely should be, because of several characters and the fact that the game is already fine with it. Saying things like it can't be fairly implimented is dumb since the people that are saying this are mostly just saying this so they have an excuse to get rid of MK instead (more favorable to them; more favorable to most people, but not fair to do). It's been the standard for years now and we've been fine.

Public poll and a terrible democracy is why URC stuff and MK issue is brought up again. Quite frankly almost anything else is just an excuse to distract from the REAL reasons, or to add some bull **** that almost nobody really cares about to make their argument appear stronger.

 

[WindMajor]

I don't think the ruleset with MK legal is trying to nerf MK in the first place Twinkie, you're looking at this all wrong.

I don't know if I'm following what you're saying. I do feel like everything we do about the ruleset has MK in mind. Even though we didn't ban RC/Brinstar, the discussion is brought up because of him (proof would be later on in this post in my response to Kaffei). We have a faulty rule, the LGL, set up mostly because of MK (no other character requires an LGL, even though the old Unity ruleset speaks otherwise). On top of that, we're constantly trying to figure out ways to nerf timing out as a whole by reducing timers, stocks, win conditions, etc. Again, all with MK in mind.

No LGL means anyone else who is good on the ledge could time you out. I don't want that X_X
(Unless there's something I'm missing if u can point that out I'd appreciate it)

The point is that even if you "don't want" people camping on the ledge, the LGL cannot be used as a tool to alleviate that, because it's faulty. The rule is unfair, it doesn't work, and it will never work properly. People just like it because it has the power to disqualify players, which is satisfying to everyone else because they get the feeling that justice was served (which couldn't be farther from the truth).

Removing those two stages won't exactly nerf him but other characters would have a better chance, don't u think? There are several characters who can compete with MK on stages like SV/BF/FD/PS1/Lylat etc, but Brinstar & RC make it soooo hard..

I think other characters would have a better chance if there were more stages to choose from. I think TL has a better chance beating MK with stages like Norfair legal, than with RC/Brinstar illegal.

You can get a hint of where I'm getting at if you observe what happened at MLG. MLG had a very liberal stage list (GG, Norfair, PS2, Picto) and as a result, we had a surprisingly varied Top 16 in terms of character selection.

 

[Johnknight1]

What about the idea of banning Meta Knight from counter-picking certain stages=??? (like Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise) I always thought this would be an interesting idea.

Problem with the Brawl BRoom is that the it has awful democracy (where anyone can vote, including those who don't attend tournaments), and awful republic representation (where we don't choose our representatives). The BBRoom is more of a oligarchy (a government ruled by a few leaders who make all the decisions) backed by popular support, with much of that support coming from people who don't attend tournaments (and obviously some people who want Meta Knight banned, or want to see a Meta Knight-free tournament scene experiment).

If you ask me, it should be more republican-based (the government, not the party) where selected representatives by those who actually play the game choose much of the people who is in charge of the rule set. Have representatives from each character board who is amongst the best at a particular character, have some extra players who have had an impact on smash, have some of the best TOs from each region/state represent their region/area. However, the system should probably give SoCal their own reps, but combine less active states like Wyoming with other states in terms of representation).

That or run the BBR as effectively as the MBR seems to run...

 

[Ripple]

my name is M2K and I'm angry because now I have to complete school and find a real job.

cry more

 

[Sorto]

that

the old ruleset we've been using PAST TWO YEARS with LGL is FINE. I would actually go as far as to say that Melee might be better off with a LGL too because of Jigglypuff and possibly sheik. Hax's falcon and jman's fox's are both better than my jigglypuff is, yet i was able to 4 stock both of them with jigglypuff by getting the lead vs them and planking them. There is no LGL in that game, but I think there should be. Brawl there definitely should be, because of several characters and the fact that the game is already fine with it. Saying things like it can't be fairly implimented is dumb since the people that are saying this are mostly just saying this so they have an excuse to get rid of MK instead (more favorable to them; more favorable to most people, but not fair to do). It's been the standard for years now and we've been fine.

Public poll and a terrible democracy is why URC stuff and MK issue is brought up again. Quite frankly almost anything else is just an excuse to distract from the REAL reasons, or to add some bull **** that almost nobody really cares about to make their argument appear stronger.

I understand that the changes described would make an ok ruleset. But if we are going to create a diverging ruleset, then perhaps we can try to improve upon other issues existing in the current one. The meta knight ban is unfair, but it is not the only issue existing in the current urc ruleset. I created this thread to bring to light all issues with the current ruleset and to discuss popular ideas that would aim to fix these problems, make the game better and of courses FAIRER, within reason.

 

[KingClubber]

Being completely Serious:

Planking only works with stages with ledges right? If you ban all stages that have ledges, and only use stages that don't have ledges or only has them for an preset amount of time that removes a good 80% of of the usage of planking.

Stage list with timed, or no ledges.

Mushroomy Kingdom
Mario Circuit
Rumble Falls
The Bridge of Eldin
Port Town Aero Dive
Flat Zone 2
Shadow Moses Island
Green Hill Zone
Rainbow Cruise

A total of 9 stages which is the same total that "Melee" use for it's tournaments, Metaknight is always going to be Metaknight no matter what, and the stages might seem unfair to many, but at least it would give them a fighting chance, and seeing how two of the stages on the BBR Ruleset has two stages with hazards they shouldn't complain much.

This would actively remove the Ledge Limit as well, but i would suggest lowering the time limit to 5 minutes, brawl is awfully slow when it wants to be, and watching two metaknight's trying so hard not to get hit can be such a yawn fest.

Chances is i'm not going to be visting this thread again, but it'd give you something to think about. or not.

 

[Cassio]

I don't know if I'm following what you're saying. I do feel like everything we do about the ruleset has MK in mind. Even though we didn't ban RC/Brinstar, the discussion is brought up because of him (proof would be later on in this post in my response to Kaffei). We have a faulty rule, the LGL, set up mostly because of MK (no other character requires an LGL, even though the old Unity ruleset speaks otherwise). On top of that, we're constantly trying to figure out ways to nerf timing out as a whole by reducing timers, stocks, win conditions, etc. Again, all with MK in mind.

Most likely youre being paranoid and bias in favor of your ruleset. How could anyone prefer the make a game less random and more entertaining through banning odd stages and implementing an lgl unless MK was involved? Its almost like this hasnt happened in melee and 64 .

If you hate banning things and game limitations then youre in the wrong community.

I do agree that adding more stages would harm MK as would removing some. The current stage list seems to be perfectly created to make MK dominant, stages others would do well against him on were removed while keeping all the ones he dominates on.

 

[Mono.]

Mushroomy Kingdom
Mario Circuit
Rumble Falls
The Bridge of Eldin
Port Town Aero Dive
Flat Zone 2
Shadow Moses Island
Green Hill Zone
Rainbow Cruise

Weren't a good deal of these stages banned because of something characters aside Meta Knight can do? Like D3 can infinite with ease on Shadow Moses.

Also, you guys don't think it's a bit silly that we have to come up with a ruleset that is based upon the presence of 1 single character out of the 30+ that's in the game?

 

[KingClubber]

Would you rather that some odd infinite combo that an character can do or Metanight's planking?

DDD is going to have to kill you at 300% no matter what, so you get the chance of trying not to get grabbed again. It's either remove the ledges as best as possible, or ban metaknight.

 

[Mono.]

Would I like poison or poison?

Either way, there's way more reasons behind the banning of that stage aside what I mentioned but I'm not getting into that. I'm pretty sure we're not just gonna get rid of stages that have ledges as that's limiting way more than just getting rid of a stupidly broken character.

 

[KingClubber]

So you plan to continue to fighting planking, with an Ledge Limit Count, which will not get metaknight unbanned.

And the more rules you try to add to fix metaknight from being banned will only effect characters that aren't banned.

You can have quick unforgiving matches, or you can wait til the timer runs out and lose by default.

So it's as you say Poison or Prison, but you can still fight poisoned.

 

[Ripple]

I'm confused. Are you legitimately suggesting playing on only those stages?

 

[KingClubber]

Being completely Serious:

Yes, i discussed with a friend and I know the chance of anyone agreeing with it is so undeniable low, but he said that I should post the idea anyway, and only argue if no one can prove it wouldn't work.

 

[Ripple]

Mushroomy Kingdom
Mario Circuit
Rumble Falls
The Bridge of Eldin
Port Town Aero Dive
Flat Zone 2
Shadow Moses Island
Green Hill Zone
Rainbow Cruise

Shroomy could be legal, idk. Check out the stage discussion for that.
Circuit- permanent walk offs. Banned
Rumble- if it weren't for the close space it would be fine
Bridge- permanent walkoffs. Banned
PTAD- fine stage
Flatzone- permanent walk offs. Banned
Shadow moses-Either wall or walkoff. Either way. Banned
Green hill- perma walk off. Banned
RC- MK auto wins

A total of 3 playable (iffy) stages. 1 of which MK wins

 

[KingClubber]

Remove the bans on those stages then, the thing about those bans is that either make a particular character better or give them some type of advantage. It's no difference when it comes to playing other smash games, stages with platform gives marth nearly an auto tipper, final destination give characters like fox an advantage because there no where to hide.

You might as well ban Ice Climbers from Chain grabbing then because there's little difference and the result of "Permanent Walk Offs" if they chain grab you to 200+ then finish you with and up-smash. Your just going to have to do the same, "Not Get Grabbed"

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Pretty sure their cg is harder than most wall infinites.

 

[KingClubber]

Oh, it is. But the results, and goal are the same either way: Easy Kill.

 

[Ripple]

Remove the bans on those stages then, the thing about those bans is that either make a particular character better or give them some type of advantage. It's no difference when it comes to playing other smash games, stages with platform gives marth nearly an auto tipper, final destination give characters like fox an advantage because there no where to hide.

You might as well ban Ice Climbers from Chain grabbing then because there's little difference and the result of "Permanent Walk Offs" if they chain grab you to 200+ then finish you with and up-smash. Your just going to have to do the same, "Not Get Grabbed"

we banned the stages because walk off camping is centralizing, not because it gives 1-2 characters an advantage.

and there is a huge difference between ICS CGing you and a wall infinite

 

[KingClubber]

we banned the stages because walk off camping is centralizing, not because it gives 1-2 characters an advantage.

Which will mean nothing compared to Planking, it still gives the chance that the other player might get the kill instead of the one starting the walk off camping.

and there is a huge difference between ICS CGing you and a wall infinite

How? Because one take time to learn, and the other doesn't. It's still the same results, and the same goal.

 

[B0NK]

^^^ IC's need to have Nana right next to Popo to CG... aka you can remove IC's tool to infinite, you can't remove the wall.

I really don't need to say this, simply put IC's infinites =\= standing infinites and wall infinites >.>

 

[Ripple]

Which will mean nothing compared to Planking, it still gives the chance that the other player might get the kill instead of the one starting the walk off camping.

I don't think you realize how damaging walk off camping/ permanent walk offs are to this game.

How? Because one take time to learn, and the other doesn't. It's still the same results, and the same goal.

exactly.

if something takes absolutely no skill, it has a chance to become over centralizing. if something actually takes time and effort and requires a pre requisite (nana). then it most likely wont centralize.

we play this game to see who is better overall at this game, not to see who can land the first grab

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

many of those stages have walkoff's. King D3/Falco say hello. Same applies to walled stages but for a different reason (I.E. infinites)

Rainbow Cruise is already a great MK stage, M2K does time people out there as MK's aerial movement is just way too good.

My solution, similar to others.
35 ledge grabs
RC/Brinstar banned. I personally wouldn't mind MK nearly as much if these stages were banned
10 minute timer

 

[KingClubber]

^^^ IC's need to have Nana right next to Popo to CG... aka you can remove IC's tool to infinite, you can't remove the wall.

I really don't need to say this, simply put IC's infinites =\= standing infinites and wall infinites >.>

The only suggested stage with a wall is an breakable wall

I don't think you realize how damaging walk off camping/ permanent walk offs are to this game.

I think walk off camping/permanent walk offs is the leaser evil when compared to planking.

exactly.

if something takes absolutely no skill, it has a chance to become over centralizing. if something actually takes time and effort and requires a pre requisite (nana). then it most likely wont centralize.

we play this game to see who is better overall at this game, not to see who can land the first grab

So compare Wall chain grabs to planking, planking doesn't take skill to do but it's allowed because the rules allow it to work. Wall Chain grabbing doesn't take skill, but is removed by enforcing that the stage can't be chosen either way it's the leaser of the two evil's once you reach 300% they must kill you so you will get out of the wall chain grab one they kill you.

 

[B0NK]

You can't remove walk-offs either, but you will always be able to gimp Nana's lvl 3 cpu AI >.>

There is a significant difference between IC's CGs and other infinites.

 

[KingClubber]

You can't remove walk-offs either, but you will always be able to gimp Nana's lvl 3 cpu AI >.>

There is a significant difference between IC's CGs and other infinites.

Same results, same goal.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Change the rule to "3 minutes for each stock" instead of "3 minutes + 8 stocks". There is no "correct" amount of stocks to play this game with. 1 stock @3 minutes, 2 stocks @6 minutes and 3 stocks @9 minutes all make perfect sense and allow the TO to choose how he wants the game to be played [in accordance with the attendants ofc] without breaking a rule.

Change the counterpicking rule: after the winner chooses his character the loser has to decide whether he wants to CP characters or stage. Counterpicking is overemphasized in america and overrated in general - being allowed to counterpick stage and character breaks the "counter-pick system" a lot more than any individual character does. The current rule used is pretty anti-competitive.

 

[B0NK]

Same results, same goal.

One is more situational then the other. IC's are so situational it will never overcentralize.

"same result" you speak of is not possible when Nana is killed. Regardless of stage.

With your stagelist, even SoPo can walk-off CG, and now IC's situational infinite is no longer situational since you don't need Nana to infinite anymore.

Nana being able to be kill is that significant, tell me how I will kill the walk-offs?

Sure I can't kill the ledges either, but I think there should be a LGL anyways.

 

[KingClubber]

Nana being able to be kill is that significant, tell me how I will kill the walk-offs?

The Walk-offs leave themselves the chance a being killed as well when being near the death boarder. If you can get the hit/grab in first, or can avoid the they're hit/grab it give you have the advantage now.

 

[B0NK]

^^^ I don't care how it'd be theoretically played out.

Just don't say IC's chaingrabs are the same as such overcentralizing tactics such as walk-off CGs >.>

Argue with others about how amazing walk-offs make the game.

 

[KingClubber]

Just don't say IC's chaingrabs are the same as such overcentralizing tactics such as walk-off CGs >.>

There's no difference, why do you think wobbling is banned in melee in most tournaments.

 

[B0NK]

^^^Because it's just as easy as walk-off CGs, wall infinites, and standing infinites in Brawl to execute.

IC's can still CG infinite in melee without wobbling.

And that's assuming I support wobbling being banned in the first place, I don't.

EDIT: Also those are two different games, and essentially communities that have no link to how they decide what is banned or not.

Why do you think every legal stage in Melee is just a variation of battlefield and fd? Because it isn't brawl or the brawl community and simply shouldn't be compared as a basis or example for an argument about brawl.

 

[KingClubber]

Like i said, it's the only way i could see Metaknight being unbanned without making Metaknight completely unplayable because you can't ban planking, and Ledge Limit counts aren't going to solve anything. Chances is as long a Metaknight isn't going to be unbanned, the Ledge Limit Count will be remove soon after.

 

[Ripple]

The official LGL wasn't even put in place because of MK

it was because of broken kong

I see you delux

 

[KingClubber]

Wow, really I always thought it was because of MK, lol.

 

[Ussi]

Its because some DK main decided to plank the ledge in a tourney and got 5th place cause of it. 185 ledge grabs happened in one match.

 

[KingClubber]

5th? Krazy, anyway i'm done here. I knew from the beginning that it was a losing battle seeing how it would completely change the way brawl is played, but i don't see what else can be done. But you might really want to consider lowering the time limit to 5 minutes, 8 to 10mins of planking is a little much.