The MK Legal Ruleset Discussion

[Ussi]

Or you could remove MK's specials which pretty much takes out MK's ability to stall since he won't have tornado, SL, and cape to play keep away so well.

He can still camp with dairs, but his bad aerial mobility will hinder him not letting him get away from punishment.

 

[Sorto]

Or you could remove MK's specials which pretty much takes out MK's ability to stall since he won't have tornado, SL, and cape to play keep away so well.

He can still camp with dairs, but his bad aerial mobility will hinder him not letting him get away from punishment.

I don't think ending you air stall with a tornado is a great plan due to its ending lag? Tho I am not sure.

By removing b moves you remove fair options.
By limiting ledgegrabs I only really remove planking (assuming the number is high enough to account for recovering)

Removing his b moves also removes his fair options.

Mk planking is deemed relatively unfair.

But mks b moves are deemed good, but not unfair. Sure they may add to his air camp game, but they alone dont create his air camp game.

Ledge grab accounts only for planking and recovering. The number is still high enough to cover legitimately recovering and even allows for a tad of planking at 25.

 

[Ussi]

tornado will AC at a certain height, I was watching some m2k vids and was watching m2k platform camp on frigate.

SV is also a big platform camping stage.

What i'm noticing is stages with a platform above the ledge (not even permanent) proves powerful for MK.\

You might want to consider banning frigate and moving SV to CP or outright banning it too.


MK is considered too good that he got banned by URC. URC EVEN HAS A LGL ALEADY at 35 which moving it down to 25 isn't probably going anywhere since timeouts don't happen that often as it is.


Actually i need to ask this before I continue even debating my points. What is the goal of this ruleset? Is it just for the small 25% of the community to play or are you trying to bring everyone to you? Cause if its just for the small 25% I'll just back out since i'm part of the big 75%

 

[WindMajor]

The LGL is good because it can disqualify people for grabbing the ledge a lot (something nobody likes to see), but it's bad because there doesn't exist a single number that we can use to disqualify people fairly with. That's one of the reasons an MK ban was desireable to some, because limiting can't fairly be done.

If you want MK back, it's only fair to bring him back unrestricted, w/o an LGL attached.

www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13376599#post13376599 Clarified.

 

[Sorto]

The LGL is good because it can disqualify people for grabbing the ledge a lot (something nobody likes to see), but it's bad because there doesn't exist a single number that we can use to disqualify people fairly with. That's one of the reasons an MK ban was desireable to some, because limiting can't fairly be done.

If you want MK back, it's only fair to bring him back unrestricted, w/o an LGL attached.

www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13376599#post13376599 Clarified.

Planking is used mainly to stall. Should jigglys be allowed to rising puff in melee? Its unrestricted jiggs.

 

[Ussi]

Ok if I read the OP right, here are the changes I'd make for an MK legal ruleset. My reasoning is to basically nerf stall in general.


Starter stages: YI, BF, SV

CP: FD, lylat

debatable to be banned due to stalling: PS1, PS2, CS (phase 2 is stally), halberd (sharking stall),

banned: brinstar, RC, delfino, frigate

While SV is stallish, its only stallish with MK so you should strike/ban this stage vs MK :\

LOL i just realized i just did a japan ruleset

 

[Mithost]

OR.... We can render planking useless by making running the clock a bad thing (such as picking a winner with most damage dealt or least air time, or least time on the ledge). Then all planking will do is make you stretch out a loss.

 

[Sorto]

tornado will AC at a certain height, I was watching some m2k vids and was watching m2k platform camp on frigate.

SV is also a big platform camping stage.

What i'm noticing is stages with a platform above the ledge (not even permanent) proves powerful for MK.\

You might want to consider banning frigate and moving SV to CP or outright banning it too.


MK is considered too good that he got banned by URC. URC EVEN HAS A LGL ALEADY at 35 which moving it down to 25 isn't probably going anywhere since timeouts don't happen that often as it is.


Actually i need to ask this before I continue even debating my points. What is the goal of this ruleset? Is it just for the small 25% of the community to play or are you trying to bring everyone to you? Cause if its just for the small 25% I'll just back out since i'm part of the big 75%

The URC made a rule set. There committee is just a made up of a bunch of tos. They are not the be all and end all of smash. Also, there reasons for banning metaknight are not over poweredness but over centralization. They have a ruleset and enough people deem it to be unreasonable. Here is the beginnings of another ruleset. One that aims to be truly fair and consider top player notions over to notions. This ruleset aims to ban overpowered characters not overcentralized ones. This ruleset stems from a different believe and a different idea of fair. Subscribe to which ever one you wish.

 

[WindMajor]

Planking is used mainly to stall. Should jigglys be allowed to rising puff in melee? Its unrestricted jiggs.

We're talking about Brawl here, I know nothing of Melee.

 

[Ussi]

The URC made a rule set. There committee is just a made up of a bunch of tos. They are not the be all and end all of smash. Also, there reasons for banning metaknight are not over poweredness but over centralization. They have a ruleset and enough people deem it to be unreasonable. Here is the beginnings of another ruleset. One that aims to be truly fair and consider top player notions over to notions. This ruleset aims to ban overpowered characters not overcentralized ones. This ruleset stems from a different believe and a different idea of fair. Subscribe to which ever one you wish.

I made a new suggestion completely ignoring nerfing MK directly. I just nerfed stalling

 

[Sorto]

We're talking about Brawl here, I know nothing of Melee.

Point is... I agree to leaving characters unrestricted as long as it doesn't conflict with the base rules of what players consider fair. Stalling is often banned. Stalling is banned in all smashes in all rulesets I believe. So tactics that permit stalling or sudo stalling should aslo be banned, because they conflict with that rule. Planking is mainly used to stall. People will arguing it is not stalling, but it is not used for any other means then to run the clock.

 

[Sorto]

I made a new suggestion completely ignoring nerfing MK directly. I just nerfed stalling

I read it. And it doesn't sound bad. It will be noted along with the others. Thank you for your time and reply. Also would you play an mk legal brawl if the rules you said were in place? And if not then why wouldn't you play? That is the intial idea behind this thread. Describe a ruleset you would create that you believe is fair and you would be willing to have mk be legal in it.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

tornado will AC at a certain height, I was watching some m2k vids and was watching m2k platform camp on frigate.

SV is also a big platform camping stage.

No offense, but that's incredibly stupid. You're just wrong.

You might want to consider banning frigate and moving SV to CP or outright banning it too.

This is too.

MK is considered too good that he got banned by URC. URC EVEN HAS A LGL ALEADY at 35 which moving it down to 25 isn't probably going anywhere since timeouts don't happen that often as it is.

This is also quite dumb. It was banned by the URC based on a public opinion poll, which itself had more to do with overcentralization than the character actually being broken (again, metaknight is not even remotely broken with an LGL; he's simply the best in the game and has the most top players playing him, although this only applies in the USA).

 

[Ussi]

I read it. And it doesn't sound bad. It will be noted along with the others. Thank you for your time and reply. Also would you play an mk legal brawl if the rules you said were in place? And if not then why wouldn't you play? That is the intial idea behind this thread. Describe a ruleset you would create that you believe is fair and you would be willing to have mk be legal in it.

I would try essentially the japan ruleset i just happened to mimicked just because the thought of less stall sounds fun.

 

[Sorto]

@BPC First off I completely agree with you. Thank you for getting the point across. Secondly did you post a ruleset idea? I wish to hear your opinions.

 

[Sorto]

I would try essentially the japan ruleset i just happened to mimicked just because the thought of less stall sounds fun.

It is a fighting game. Not a stalling game. All smashes aim to ban stalling. Stalling is harder to ban in brawl, but perhaps it can be limited. I hope when this ruleset gets completed that perhaps you will try it before you instantly subscribe to an mk banned ruleset.

 

[Ussi]

stalling will always exist in a fighting game, how much stall you keep depends on the ruleset. I basically suggested removing any stage that had stalling features in it. (Like choosing to wait out a transformation for 30 seconds)

Even if MK remains in this kind of ruleset, without stallish stages it should be fun to watch/play.

 

[Wave-Guiding Hero]

BPC, simply saying "you are wrong and stupid" doesn't automatically win you the argument. You have to actually give reasons for your points. :/

In regards to the rule set, I personally think removing RC, Brinstar, and the B button ate the best possible modifications, or at least worth a shot.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

@BPC First off I completely agree with you. Thank you for getting the point across. Secondly did you post a ruleset idea? I wish to hear your opinions.

First page, like 4th post. German ruleset, plus 1-2 minutes on the timer.

BPC, simply saying "you are wrong and stupid" doesn't automatically win you the argument. You have to actually give reasons for your points. :/

I did: he's factually wrong.

 

[Ussi]

M2K uses tornado to cover himself while he air camps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2zn8vA8zxw#t=12m20s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2zn8vA8zxw#t=13m

 

[link2702]

MK legal ruleset;

Ban every character but:

MK
Diddy kong
Snake
Falco


keep people from wasting time and effort picking other characters

 

[Ussi]

MK legal ruleset;

Ban every character but:

MK
Diddy kong
Snake
Falco


keep people from wasting time and effort picking other characters

:\ be serious, at least when i suggest banning a lot of stages for stalling there is some merit to that kind of thinking.

 

[Wave-Guiding Hero]

MK legal ruleset;

Ban every character but:

MK
Diddy kong
Snake
Falco

keep people from wasting time and effort picking other characters

Obvious troll is obvious.

While we're at it, why not ban every character and stage except MK and FD? That's how the REAL pros play Smash. </sarcasm>

 

[Sorto]

Please, only constructive rule set ideas, not arguments. Please and thank you.

 

[link2702]

i am serious.

a ruleset witht he bat legal will pretty much resort to what we saw before.

 

[Sorto]

i am serious.

a ruleset witht he bat legal will pretty much resort to what we saw before.

Ban mk to make low tiers viable? Low tiers are low tiers, the banning of a character should not be used to help a low tiered character unless said character is completely making the rest of the cast unviable. Melee mainly resorts to the use of 4 characters. So does marvel vs capcom 2. It is the evolution of fighting games due to issues with balance. Name the lower tiered characters that don't have a -2 matchup outside of mk? You can check a chart for that and come back to me with a list of at most one or two characters.

**but again this is not about arguing. It is about constructive ruleset ideas. If you wish to continue this argument send me a private message.

 

[link2702]

I'm talking about banning everyone below those high tiers.

mid tiers and all

because with meta legal he pretty much took a dump on everyone, not just the low tiers, (everyone knows the low tiers have more problems then just metaknight), mid mid-high, everyone, except like 4-5 characters.

so why keep anyone else legal when its pointless to play as em? just keep those ones i suggested, since thats all you'll see any how.


EDIT:

the banning of a character should not be used to help a low tiered character unless said character is completely making the rest of the cast unviable.

what did you thnk metaknight did?

 

[Sorto]

I'm talking about banning everyone below those high tiers.

mid tiers and all

because with meta legal he pretty much took a dump on everyone, not just the low tiers, (everyone knows the low tiers have more problems then just metaknight), mid mid-high, everyone, except like 4-5 characters.

so why keep anyone else legal when its pointless to play as em? just keep those ones i suggested, since thats all you'll see any how.

I sent you a message about what I meant. I wish to keep arguing out of this thread and only discuss ruleset ideas to get a general idea of public demand outside of an mk ban and to see what top players think is fair. Read your message and send me a message if you need further detail or arguing.

 

[Wave-Guiding Hero]

I'm talking about banning everyone below those high tiers.

mid tiers and all

because with meta legal he pretty much took a dump on everyone, not just the low tiers, (everyone knows the low tiers have more problems then just metaknight), mid mid-high, everyone, except like 4-5 characters.

so why keep anyone else legal when its pointless to play as em? just keep those ones i suggested, since thats all you'll see any how.

Because maybe there are people who are anti-ban but DON'T play Meta Knight? Maybe they enjoy playing a low tier character against MK? Maybe because they are really good at the matchup with a character? Maybe because it would be pointless for them to play one of those four characters because they are bad at them?

I'm trying to understand the logic of banning 34 characters in response to a thread that was made because 1 character was.

While I understand that this is your opinion, I would like to know how it makes any sense otherwise.

 

[Sorto]

Arguing should be done outside of this thread please.



And thank you.

 

[link2702]

I sent you a message about what I meant. I wish to keep arguing out of this thread and only discuss ruleset ideas to get a general idea of public demand outside of an mk ban and to see what top players think is fair. Read your message and send me a message if you need further detail or arguing.

you know most everyone all agrees that MK players have seriously underrated a lot of matchups right? That most of matchups against him are 3 or worse for the opponent, not 2. MK players have always underrated em to not make him seem as oped as he is.

@wave, it makes just as much sense as keeping a broken character like MK legal in the first place.

 

[Sorto]

Please note. Mk is being banned based on a vote and on possible overcentralization. No real argument for him being overpowered under a legitimate ruleset exists. The main issue is overcentralization. The only generally agreed upon and arguably overpowered thing about mk is his planking and stalling capabilities. This is not me speaking, but a general top player consensus. Not to say I am a top player, but I have followed the arguments fairly closely. This goes to all readers. Please do not turn this into an mk ban discussion. Read the intial post and follow those rules. Please and thank you.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

MK legal ruleset;

Ban every character but:

MK
Diddy kong
Snake
Falco


keep people from wasting time and effort picking other characters

You're also factually wrong. Marth, Fox, Wolf, Olimar, ZSS, and various others do just fine with MK legal. Seriously, dude, I hate to break it to you, but if you look outside the US, then you're dead wrong. If you look outside NY/NJ, you're also dead wrong. Look at the results for SiiS6, a really big tournament, which had... one MK. In the top 3, there was more peach than MK. The idea that Metaknight limits the metagame to these top 4 characters is... I'm sorry, it's stupid and you're wrong.

 

[Sorto]

I know it is hard not to argue when you hear clearly incorrect statements. But I wish to maintain the original integrity of the thread if at all possible. For future reference, please post rulesets you believe to be fair for all characters. The entire cast. These ruleset should not contain any banned characters.

 

[Tesh]

lol BPC, the only good MK at that tournament was the Falco that got 1st. Using example you KNOW are bad makes you no better than pro bans citing VC9.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

lol BPC, the only good MK at that tournament was the Falco that got 1st.

And that alone should damn well say something, shouldn't it?

 

[WindMajor]

What does it matter? We're supposed to be discussing rules, not character legality. If it was to discuss a certain character's legality, then it wouldn't be open for long, if you know what I mean.

Again, my opinion is that the LGL shouldn't exist because the rule disqualifies people unfairly. If any universal change should be made to balance out the free-reigning MK, it should be adding stages, that act as good counterpicks for other characters, as well as MK.

MK is good on almost every stage, removing Brinstar/RC, or any other stage won't really nerf him. What it will do though is limit the rest of the cast's options. Adding mores stages gives the rest of the cast would give more characters more options to fight MK, as well as other characters among the cast.

Time/stocks don't HAVE to be changed, but if we want we could change them anyways.

 

[Ussi]

I don't think the ruleset with MK legal is trying to nerf MK in the first place Twinkie, you're looking at this all wrong.

 

[JTsm]

Here's an idea, for the LGL, every time you recover on stage, you are limited to 5 Ledge grabs. There won't be a ledge grab limit, but there will be every time you recover, after the 5th ledge grab you, have to get back on stage.

Just an idea worth mentioning.

 

[Kaffei]

Again, my opinion is that the LGL shouldn't exist because the rule disqualifies people unfairly. If any universal change should be made to balance out the free-reigning MK, it should be adding stages, that act as good counterpicks for other characters, as well as MK.

No LGL means anyone else who is good on the ledge could time you out. I don't want that X_X
(Unless there's something I'm missing if u can point that out I'd appreciate it)

MK is good on almost every stage, removing Brinstar/RC, or any other stage won't really nerf him. What it will do though is limit the rest of the cast's options. Adding mores stages gives the rest of the cast would give more characters more options to fight MK, as well as other characters among the cast.

Time/stocks don't HAVE to be changed, but if we want we could change them anyways.

Removing those two stages won't exactly nerf him but other characters would have a better chance, don't u think? There are several characters who can compete with MK on stages like SV/BF/FD/PS1/Lylat etc, but Brinstar & RC make it soooo hard..