The Meteors Approach: What 1.06 Could Mean for Yoshi

[Sinister Slush]

Well thing is for Japan we actually have sources and places to look at both videos and rankings.
There's an online ranking for Japan where Yoshidora is actually above the likes of rain, though online is skewed in a sense it can be cause Yoshi is really good on wifi and yoshidora is almost exclusively wifi so he farms more points.

Then offline Aiba is like in the top 15
Judging from both live matches and online, Yoshi players tend to short hop airdodge into nair which works 8 out of 10 times. Dunno why, but it just does. Old excuse was wifi with yoshidora and all, but it appears aiba and other random offline japanese Yoshi's doing the same thing and it works. Either the japanese players can't adapt to it very well or it's actually a good option.

As much as we (NA EU etc. Yoshi's) complain about people falling for the short hop egg toss gimmick, the japanese prolly complain about SHAD into nair just as much possibly. They're both silly gimmicks that're working more than they should.
Also the japanese play on 3 stages, BF FD and Smashville. Prolly why some characters, especially Yoshi, are ranked so high.

 

[Talazala]

I don't play play much yoshi in Smash4, but I do fear for him in the upcoming patch. Best of luck friends. Maybe other top tiers will get it harder than Yoshi, and he'll actually be the same relative to the whole roster.

 

[Saturnity]

There's an online ranking for Japan where Yoshidora is actually above the likes of rain, though online is skewed in a sense it can be cause Yoshi is really good on wifi and yoshidora is almost exclusively wifi so he farms more points.

At least they're so close together I can't imagine any Japanese matches going over 50 ping.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

I think Yoshi is solidly top 5, but far from OP. He's a generally versatile and effective character, but his roll and grab games are not so great. He has clear weaknesses, unlike Diddy Kong.

So I sort of group him with Sheik and Rosalina in in that respect. He's a top character, but he has clear and exploitable weaknesses. (Although I guess Sheik's weaknesses are more with offensive execution than exploitable defensive flaws.) That makes him balanced and no nerfs are necessary. I'll be very disappointed if he is nerfed.

 

[Genma316]

I believe if anything Yoshi needs a buff, but if they gave Little Mac of all characters a nerf just because he was overrated then Yoshi is definitely going to get one as well. Our only hope is to make Yoshi's For Glory win ratio lower by the time the patch comes out.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I think Yoshi is solidly top 5, but far from OP. He's a generally versatile and effective character, but his roll and grab games are not so great. He has clear weaknesses, unlike Diddy Kong.

So I sort of group him with Sheik and Rosalina in in that respect. He's a top character, but he has clear and exploitable weaknesses. (Although I guess Sheik's weaknesses are more with offensive execution than exploitable defensive flaws.) That makes him balanced and no nerfs are necessary. I'll be very disappointed if he is nerfed.

Yoshi most likely is not top 5, and Sheik definitely does not have offensive execution weaknesses. She just doesn't have broken kill confirmation off of down-throw like Diddy, Luigi and Mii Brawler. That's hardly a weakness. I hope you are disappointed, because she absolutely needs adjustments.

 

[Delta-cod]

I think he meant he'd be disappointed if Yoshi was nerfed.

 

[1hipG33K]

I think the dino's egg roll gets downplayed too much. The shield grab-ability sucks, but it is a quick dodge, and can follow up with another hit, even in tournament play. But that was all a tangent.

Nerf's I could see: D-air damage (even though I know it should stay the same), lag added or knockback nerfed to his nair (as much as I don't want it, the combo breaker apsect gets ******* about a lot)
Buff's I'd love: Either more or less knockback on throws (more means they can kill, less means more combos), and lag times on his various grabs fixed.

I honestly think a buff to yoshi's grab game in general is what he obviously needs, but other than that, he is one of the most well rounded in terms of balance in the game. Aside from grabs, his weaknesses and strengths are very even.

 

[Skitrel]

we also get NOTHING out of our grabs.

Wait, what? That's not true.

Instead of throwing, pummel repeatedly until they mash out. Mash out during pummel animation causes a guaranteed grounded release. Against every character that doesn't have a 2 frame or 1 frame jab this true combos into Yoshi's jab, which then true combos into dash, or against some characters acts as a direct setup for crouch cancelled jab infinites.

I've mentioned this setup around these parts before and I am honestly quite surprised to see it not getting used more frequently. Against most of the cast pummel spam into jab is Yoshi's best option with a successful grab.

Grab>Pummel>jabjab>Dashattack

For a kill from grab do:

Grab>Pummel>singlejab>downB

Try it. My experience is a grounded release 90% of the time when spamming pummel.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

I don't run into many Yoshis on FG. Little Mac was overused more than overrated, and that's why he got nerfed. I

Yoshi most likely is not top 5, and Sheik definitely does not have offensive execution weaknesses. She just doesn't have broken kill confirmation off of down-throw like Diddy, Luigi and Mii Brawler. That's hardly a weakness. I hope you are disappointed, because she absolutely needs adjustments.

I won't necessarily be disappointed if Sheik is nerfed, I just don't think she needs it. She has to work really hard to get the KO already. I hope any adjustments are done in moderation.

I was referring to Yoshi with that last comment. Perhaps I was unclear on that point. I apologize.

 

[1hipG33K]

Wait, what? That's not true.

Instead of throwing, pummel repeatedly until they mash out. Mash out during pummel animation causes a guaranteed grounded release. Against every character that doesn't have a 2 frame or 1 frame jab this true combos into Yoshi's jab, which then true combos into dash, or against some characters acts as a direct setup for crouch cancelled jab infinites.

I've mentioned this setup around these parts before and I am honestly quite surprised to see it not getting used more frequently. Against most of the cast pummel spam into jab is Yoshi's best option with a successful grab.

Grab>Pummel>jabjab>Dashattack

For a kill from grab do:

Grab>Pummel>singlejab>downB

Try it. My experience is a grounded release 90% of the time when spamming pummel.

But they can jump out of the grab release, ending that combo. It also doesn't work at higher percents. The jab>d special isn't guaranteed either.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Wait, what? That's not true.

It's true

Against every character that doesn't have a 2 frame or 1 frame jab this true combos into Yoshi's jab, which then true combos into dash, or against some characters acts as a direct setup for crouch cancelled jab infinites.

So all the good characters then he can't do this against lol
Might I remind that Jab isn't the only thing, Mario's Dtilt isn't even frame 3 but he can still use the move before jab happens. I've tried this many times against my local mario mains and they know but at the same time forget about that option.

Nothing true combos into his DA is they tech. It'll miss when or if they do. Jab infinite thing is true, but hard to set up simply cause you have to guess when they'll come out and be ready to hold down to use Cstick to Jab (if you have cstick set to attack)

I've mentioned this setup around these parts before and I am honestly quite surprised to see it not getting used more frequently. Against most of the cast pummel spam into jab is Yoshi's best option with a successful grab.

Previously, characters that aren't good. Anyone in top 10 can retaliate.

Grab>Pummel>jabjab>Dashattack

For a kill from grab do:

Grab>Pummel>singlejab>downB

Try it. My experience is a grounded release 90% of the time when spamming pummel.

Tech

Jab DownB about as unreliable as Jab Usmash

Jabs is fine and all after pummel, but FG? Have the need to ask.

 

[Skitrel]

It's true


So all the good characters then he can't do this against lol
Might I remind that Jab isn't the only thing, Mario's Dtilt isn't even frame 3 but he can still use the move before jab happens. I've tried this many times against my local mario mains and they know but at the same time forget about that option.

After pummel? My experience has been that characters with any move equal to 3 frames get beaten by Yoshi's jab which comes out in 3 frames. My explanation for this is that Yoshi gets to act earlier than the other person. Yoshi's jab clanks with Falcon's which is 2 frames after the pummel release, which would make sense as Yoshi getting 1 frame sooner to act. So it's safe on chars with a 2 frame jab, but doesn't follow up because of the clank, while any 3 frame or longer move Yoshi beats with his 3 frame jab.

Nothing true combos into his DA is they tech. It'll miss when or if they do. Jab infinite thing is true, but hard to set up simply cause you have to guess when they'll come out and be ready to hold down to use Cstick to Jab (if you have cstick set to attack)


Previously, characters that aren't good. Anyone in top 10 can retaliate.

Jab DownB about as unreliable as Jab Usmash

Jabs is fine and all after pummel, but FG? Have the need to ask.

I play anthers and a few locals, UK based unfortunately. Scene here is considerably stifled compared to elsewheres.

I'll have to test the jump out of pummel release as a defence to it, if that's the case then I've simply been very lucky with opponents not doing it. I'll be upset if that's true , I'll need to get muscle memory for other things before people get used to me doing it and work it out.

 

[AcePikachu]

To be honest, I am worried about Yoshi's future.

He's the most overrated character in the game, and with japan thinking he's the 3rd best character in the game, I fear he may be nerfed, which would make him even less viable than he already is.

Less viable than he is? He's very viable! Though i see your main point.

 

[AcePikachu]

I think Yoshi is gonna be left alone this time. I think instead other characters that haven't had the greatest results (such as ) are going to be focused on especially since Sakurai apparently doesn't like to nerf what's good about a character. (Don't quote me on that)

 

[Lukingordex]

Less viable than he is? He's very viable! Though i see your main point.

Well it's kinda frustrating to main a "viable" character that is not good against most of the top tier characters which are the most used ones.

 

[Skitrel]

I'll have to test the jump out of pummel release as a defence to it, if that's the case then I've simply been very lucky with opponents not doing it. I'll be upset if that's true , I'll need to get muscle memory for other things before people get used to me doing it and work it out.

Went and tested. Can't find any way to jump out of it with anyone. It's guaranteed against anyone it can beat jab against, provided the release is grounded of course, that's the only wildcard.

Clanks with Diddy sadly.

 

[AirJordans]

Less viable than he is? He's very viable! Though i see your main point.

Just compared to his close company on the tier list. He has an almost complete toolkit so it would be a shame to get bumped further away.

 

[AcePikachu]

Well it's kinda frustrating to main a "viable" character that is not good against most of the top tier characters which are the most used ones.

Besides I don't struggle against most top tiers as Yoshi. Considering Yoshi is Top 3 in Japan i'd imagine he isn't struggling all that much.

 

[AirJordans]

Besides I don't struggle against most top tiers as Yoshi. Considering Yoshi is Top 3 in Japan i'd imagine he isn't struggling all that much.

Regardless of your imagination, he is struggling. Bring us videos of Yoshi's winning competitively as much as the other top characters offline and we'll change our tune. This is something the Yoshi's are constantly talking about. The struggle is real, dog.

 

[AcePikachu]

Regardless of your imagination, he is struggling. Bring us videos of Yoshi's winning competitively as much as the other top characters offline and we'll change our tune. This is something the Yoshi's are constantly talking about. The struggle is real, dog.

Is it? Huh, i actually never knew. I'm actually new here. (Despite my account being 3 years old, never done anything until now.) I thought Yoshi was doing just fine, especially considering where he is on the tier list. I know people that say Yoshi is OP even.

 

[AirJordans]

Is it? Huh, i actually never knew. I'm actually new here. (Despite my account being 3 years old, never done anything until now.) I thought Yoshi was doing just fine, especially considering where he is on the tier list. I know people that say Yoshi is OP even.

No problem, dude. Yeah some of his moves have some outrageous properties that could probably be shaved a little to make them less powerful but he lacks the appropriate tools to kill unless someone is at a really high percentage. This game already ends up being defensive for everyone and this counts double for Yoshi for whatever reason. Our Nair is amazing but it won't get us kills or wins for that matter.

 

[AcePikachu]

No problem, dude. Yeah some of his moves have some outrageous properties that could probably be shaved a little to make them less powerful but he lacks the appropriate tools to kill unless someone is at a really high percentage. This game already ends up being defensive for everyone and this counts double for Yoshi for whatever reason. Our Nair is amazing but it won't get us kills or wins for that matter.

Nair offstage can be very good, especially if you bait the airdodge. Most people expect the Fair, so 9/10 this works. (At least for me). Up Smash kills very early from my experience as well. If you grab them then down throw them. Simply wait for the immediate attack or airdodge and Up Smash accordingly. Jab to Up Smash should work too.

 

[AirJordans]

Nair offstage can be very good, especially if you bait the airdodge. Most people expect the Fair, so 9/10 this works. (At least for me). Up Smash kills very early from my experience as well. If you grab them then down throw them. Simply wait for the immediate attack or airdodge and Up Smash accordingly. Jab to Up Smash should work too.

These work, but the issue is that we rely on reads to get the kills. Dthrow=>Usmash isn't really a reliable set up, at least in my experience. Not only that but our grabs last for 2 years so it's a high risk opening. Jab might be better but I'm not sure I consider our Jab the sole setup that keeps us afloat in the A tier.

 

[AcePikachu]

These work, but the issue is that we rely on reads to get the kills. Dthrow=>Usmash isn't really a reliable set up, at least in my experience. Not only that but our grabs last for 2 years so it's a high risk opening. Jab might be better but I'm not sure I consider our Jab the sole setup that keeps us afloat in the A tier.

Well, for Dthrow>UpSmash throughout the match i like to condition my opponent to immediately airdodge after the throw by going for a attack as soon as possible. After doing this 4-5 times they should always go for a defensive option. Then you change it up by charging an up smash instead at kill percents.

Our grab might take forever but considering what we can get out of them i feel it's a risk reward situation. Jab, Combo-breaking Nair, Eggs and Fair are what I feel keeps Yoshi up in the ranks.

 

[Delta-cod]

Yoshi is certainly up there in the ranks, but nowhere near top tier. I believe his tier list placement is currently a result of early inflation due to people thinking he was amazing at first glance (which he was). As the meta progressed, people (at least most relevant players in USA) have not really considered Yoshi at all. He barely has a presence in tournaments. He truly does struggle with the two most prominent characters (Diddy and Sheik). He is missing some key elements that a top character must have in this game as it currently is (easy guaranteed throw follow ups and a strong option neutral game).

 

[Sinister Slush]

I honestly think Yoshi can get away with no top tier neutral game, he honestly just needs post nerf neutral b again and maybe even buff it.
Just grab follow ups or kill setups plz

 

[Lukingordex]

Yoshi needs his Brawl Pivot Grab and grab follow ups, that would be enough.

 

[ReturningFall]

Even if they go nowhere, fox and mario still can get something out of a grab simply cause you're high into the air now. Fox can start aerial combos or kill with Uair since his throws actually send you somewhere compared to Yoshi's. While Mario at least puts you in a position where you can be combo food for his Utilt or aerials/FLUDD.

I, atleast, have trouble punishing fox's upair out of a throw. He falls so fast it's almost like a free shot and he's back on stage.

If someone knows how to get him for it, let me know. but Fox up throw -> upair is definitely a thing, as is down throw -> fair againsts heavies. And whereas we can get punished via fast fall airdodge, fox seems much less susceptible to getting punished for it.

Something interesting: all of the top tiers have good grab games. ALL OF THEM. Look at the list of Diddy, Sheik, Rosaluma, ZSS, Sonic, Pikachu, Luigi, Mario, Ness, Falcon, Fox, just to name a few.

• Every single one has guaranteed followups, at least at low percentages.
• Many have really good combos and strings out of a throw (Sheik, ZSS, Ness, Diddy, Falcon, Mario, Luigi, etc.)
  
• Some of them have throw-to-move kills (Diddy, Pika, Luigi, etc.)
• Some have throws that kill easily (Sonic, Ness)
• And some can throw, react to the opponent, and then punish hard (ZSS, Falcon, Rosaluma)

I mean, of this list, Fox is the only one whom I don't think massively benefits from throws. A good grab game is so important––look at Diddy and Sheik. All these top-tiers instantly are put in a favorable position because of a grab. The only slow-grabber, ZSS, has the paralyzer to help. I think that (maybe) Yoshi could maintain his perceived top tier position if he got a significant boost to his grab game as a whole.
I would love any of the following:
1. Standing grab be just a bit faster, making shield-grabbing more viable.
2. No unreasonable ending lag on pivot grab.
3. b-throw kills earlier, even if only at 140%
4. d-throw sets up for guaranteed aerials at early percents
5. Our command grab faster again. Whyyyyy did they nerf this from Brawl.
Unrelated to grab game:
1. Less landing lag (autocancel?) on bair
2. Kill confirms off of Jab 1
3. Usable Roll pls? (Just cause... it would be nice.)
Realistically, I feel like nothing will really change about Yoshi with this patch. But goodness, I would be so happy if he would get ANY buffs.
tl;dr Sakurai, please let Yoshi make use of his tongue. We have to work harder to get a grab, so could we please be rewarded for that? :3

I was wondering when someone would notice this. It's almost like the grab game is the metagame right now. I'm slightly hoping grabs get nerfed in general so it move more to attack-on-attack than shield-attack-grab.

Well thing is for Japan we actually have sources and places to look at both videos and rankings.
There's an online ranking for Japan where Yoshidora is actually above the likes of rain, though online is skewed in a sense it can be cause Yoshi is really good on wifi and yoshidora is almost exclusively wifi so he farms more points.
Then offline Aiba is like in the top 15
Judging from both live matches and online, Yoshi players tend to short hop airdodge into nair which works 8 out of 10 times. Dunno why, but it just does. Old excuse was wifi with yoshidora and all, but it appears aiba and other random offline japanese Yoshi's doing the same thing and it works. Either the japanese players can't adapt to it very well or it's actually a good option.
As much as we (NA EU etc. Yoshi's) complain about people falling for the short hop egg toss gimmick, the japanese prolly complain about SHAD into nair just as much possibly. They're both silly gimmicks that're working more than they should.
Also the japanese play on 3 stages, BF FD and Smashville. Prolly why some characters, especially Yoshi, are ranked so high.

Slightly curious, how much more is 3Ds emphasized there than over here? I'm aware WiiU is everything stateside, but I'm told Japan casual and semi-competive at least tend to swing to 3DS, where punishing is harder and you can have odd lag from local wifi.

I also think Japan tends to be more projectile and defense heavy than we are, which probably feeds more into Yoshi's playstyle as we have kill smashes at high percents and our projectiles and air speed let us move around while firing. I think, the best players are more aggressive and prefer to pressure rather than wait out an opponent, which is where we fall apart due to weak approach options and really short range pokes. This is true in all metagames--but the top 1% isn't the ones making community tier lists. That said, I don't watch that many competitive matches, and even fewer from Japan, so I might be wrong.

I'll have to test the jump out of pummel release as a defence to it, if that's the case then I've simply been very lucky with opponents not doing it. I'll be upset if that's true , I'll need to get muscle memory for other things before people get used to me doing it and work it out.

It's worse than that even. I know a guy who believes in this setup religiously. I literally just do nothing, eat the extra 4% or whatever he gets from the pummel. Don't DI at all and punish the all-too-predictable-jabs with fsmash. It might work on other, heavier characters, but it's definitely not guaranteed.

 

[Delta-cod]

I honestly think Yoshi can get away with no top tier neutral game, he honestly just needs post nerf neutral b again and maybe even buff it.
Just grab follow ups or kill setups plz

He can't have no neutral game AND no kill setups though. As it stands, we struggle in neutral against top tiers and don't really reap amazing rewards for finally getting to advantage, which is awful.

 

[Sinister Slush]

But
that's why we get a better neutral B and grab game to get kill setups lol

Did you not read the post despite quoting the entire thing?

 

[Delta-cod]

I did, and it's interesting that you say he doesn't need both a neutral game and kill setups, but then say he should get a better neutral B (a better neutral game) and grabs that give kill setups.

 

[AirJordans]

Just grab follow ups or kill setups plz

This is him saying we need kill setups as their own thing in addition to grab follow ups. Sorry Delta but I think you're missing this part, no disrespect brother

 

[Delta-cod]

Y'know, reading it now after your post, I see what you're both saying now.

My b.

 

[AirJordans]

Y'know, reading it now after your post, I see what you're both saying now.

My b.

No worries, man.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I can't read my b and not just chuckle.
Goddammit chillin

 

[Zajice]

If I was in charge of the Yush Buffs.

- 1.0 neutral-b.
- At least some stun when breaking out of neutral-b. Not a lot, just enough to actually have SOME follow-up if you time it well. Less time actually in the egg as a balance, so you can't rack up a bunch of damage beforehand unless they don't wiggle out.
- Brawl pivot grab. (But keep squishy face when it whiffs. That's a buff.)
- At least an iota of priority on down-b. Should have similar strengths and weaknesses as Kirby's, essentially. Aerial down-b is pretty much a death sentence anywhere but the ledge right now. It'd be a much needed anti-juggle option, but could be easily punished if read.
- F-tilt faster so it has some use over d-tilt. Less range shouldn't be slower.
- At least one more aerial bounce to up-b.
- Fix the stupid 1% egg thing.
- Less throw knockback for some combos like everybody else. I would make d-throw low%, f and b for mid%, up for high% to juggle, and kill if they've lived absurdly long (200ish%).
- Actions can be done out of egg roll without breaking out. Customs included. Light egg roll would be fuuuuun. This would add so much to Yoshi's neutral game too, and make the move not pointless.
- A decent aerial egg roll hitbox. This could help cover his slow as **** descent when getting juggled, since it's such a pain to land. I already fall on people with egg roll sometimes cause nobody expects it, but it'd be nice if it was actually a somewhat safe option and not a gimmick. Mix up with down-b and whatnot. It'd make heavy egg roll scary.

Maybe it's a little too much, but it would make a lot of what I consider useless, gimmicky, or horribly risky to where I'm hesitant to even bother, actually have a point.

 

[Yikarur]

we play a strong character with an absurd hit/reward. Please stop crying about Yoshi. We will not receive any buffs (I still hope for short hop AC bair..) and we will probably receive a damage nerf. I hope they just leave Yoshis frame data alone..

Yoshi does not ouright beat (most) characters. He beats players. Thats important to understand before you can make a progress.
After this assumption you should get the following idea: I have to be better than my opponent.
The Yoshi Basic Skill Cap is rather low. You can 3-stock any bad player easily. It's more depending on the opponent, than your actual skill.
if you realize your opponent is at a level where bread and butter Yoshi Gimmicks don't work anymore you have to get yourself to a new level.
You have to play arround your opponent a lot, you have to force mistakes, you don't engage your opponent directly in a battle. If they do a mistake we have a hit/reward of up to 60% (and possibly more). You just have to play arround your opponent until that mistake happens.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5sEnpDeY2c
if you look at Aibas playing style in this video you will realize the exact behaviour I just described. You don't face the opponent directly, because our neutral sucks. You use our mobility, our eggs and our jab to find an opening.
At high level play you need patience. I know a lot of you lack that, but you should stop complaining about Yoshis flaws. He is a really solid character. But probably not the way you're playing him against top tier MUs.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Please stop crying about Yoshi.

This is kinda ironic cause you were one of the first people in the skype group complaining about Yoshi being bad on 3DS. I couldn't say much at the time cause I waited for superior Wii U version and played Hyrule warriors to practice smash 4.

Yoshi does not ouright beat (most) characters. He beats players. Thats important to understand before you can make a progress.

That's the story of Yoshi in all games.

You have to play arround your opponent a lot, you have to force mistakes, you don't engage your opponent directly in a battle. If they do a mistake we have a hit/reward of up to 60% (and possibly more). You just have to play arround your opponent until that mistake happens.

Same as above still outside 60% cause DI in other games.
Look snuggles, all the damage in the world and we can't land our killing blows.

I'm not really disagreeing with you. Just if all Yoshi has to do to win is hope your opponent loses their patience and starts making silly mistakes, it's still a big problem by the time you're already 100+ and you finally get that 40+% you been waiting for all game.
Thx for the rage Yoshi, I needed to kill you earlier!


It won't work against every top player if they actually never make mistakes (Zero n@iro d@buz etc.) and the fact their characters hitboxes, frame data etc. still determines the MU.
Aiba, while playing that smidgen more patient then a couple other Yoshi's. He still basically has glaring flaws any other person who's playing Yoshi right now has.

SH ET to nair on a shield, using neutral b so much they get punished, just the usual problems with Yoshi like fair never hitting cause even with his head reared back we're still getting hit by moves that shouldn't hit, Fair that should hit but never does

(honestly surprised that hit neither of them)
or Uair never landing on people cause they're smashing their airdodge button.

Only difference with this video is that it's January and the japanese didn't try the SHAD nair gimmick until just a few weeks ago.

Nothing says a win during the match then having to lose your first stock landing only egg lay and tosses before finally taking off their first stock.

 

[Zajice]

Yoshi does not ouright beat (most) characters. He beats players.

Your whole post boils down to this, which doesn't really mean anything. No duh he beats players. All characters beat players. A pro Ganon can beat a scrub Diddy. How good a character is is defined by their ability to beat players of the same skill using a different character. How good a character is defines how large that gap can be before the amateurs start beating the experienced based on character alone. If a character outright loses to most characters, they're not a good character.

I'm not saying Yoshi is terrible, since I think he's pretty a'ight. This reasoning just doesn't make any sense.