The Melee Matchup Chart for Mid Level Play

[MooseEatsBear]

See, this is where I'm confused. What would I be rated as?

 

[FoxLisk]

dont listen to dark hart. he's either a troll or just dumb.

the problem with defining mid level play the way you guys seem to be (where the limiting factor is not spacing properly/relying on tech skill when inappropriate/things like that, but your command of your character is solid) is that then you have a huge number of "high level players" instead of a huge number of mid level players. Like, I think I'm definitely better than that, but I'm not exactly placing at big tourneys. i lose because i trip up under pressure, and i have a bunch of bad habits like spot dodging in the same situations like a moron or forgetting to overshoot aerials when i want the kill badly and stuff lik that.

And until this therad, I would have considered myself on the higher end of mid level play. now you've put me in the group of high level players, and i think that's silly. i feel like im a plateau below high level players (like silent wolf, darc, lucien -- the people battling it uot for spots in the bracket at nationals), and they're another plateau below the top level players - the ones battling it uot for top 8. so the way you have it, you have too many high level players or too many top level players. i think you need to raise the bar for midlevel play and then perhaps discuss low level play if that's what you're interested in.

and of course we can ignore casual play, since thsoe players don't care anway.

 

[Kira-]

Well. The best characters will change at every level of play. So we would need like 8 different tier lists.

 

[Dark Hart]

god smashboards is such a joke

mid level play is a term to make non high/top level players feel better about themselves for not being at that level

while things such as education can be put into different categories ie high school, bachelors, PHD; video games can't: you're either a higher level player or a not.

 

[Rubyiris]

so you're saying you're going to win the amatuer bracket at pound 5 then?

I'm not going to pound 5.

 

[Rubyiris]

I would beat reneblade (<3), and Idea would beat Ruby.

/discussion

I would beat jpobs, reneblade, and I have the capability of beating idea, but I think it would be close on either side.

 

[JPOBS]

dont listen to dark hart. he's either a troll or just dumb.

the problem with defining mid level play the way you guys seem to be (where the limiting factor is not spacing properly/relying on tech skill when inappropriate/things like that, but your command of your character is solid) is that then you have a huge number of "high level players" instead of a huge number of mid level players. Like, I think I'm definitely better than that, but I'm not exactly placing at big tourneys. i lose because i trip up under pressure, and i have a bunch of bad habits like spot dodging in the same situations like a moron or forgetting to overshoot aerials when i want the kill badly and stuff lik that.

And until this therad, I would have considered myself on the higher end of mid level play. now you've put me in the group of high level players, and i think that's silly. i feel like im a plateau below high level players (like silent wolf, darc, lucien -- the people battling it uot for spots in the bracket at nationals), and they're another plateau below the top level players - the ones battling it uot for top 8. so the way you have it, you have too many high level players or too many top level players. i think you need to raise the bar for midlevel play and then perhaps discuss low level play if that's what you're interested in.

and of course we can ignore casual play, since thsoe players don't care anway.

Can't we just define it as people who make bracket at tournaments with multiple rounds of pool (apex, rom 3, pound) as "high level" and people that make it to later rounds of pools but get eliminated as "mid level" and leave it as that?

god smashboards is such a joke

mid level play is a term to make non high/top level players feel better about themselves for not being at that level

while things such as education can be put into different categories ie high school, bachelors, PHD; video games can't: you're either a higher level player or a not.

no you're dumb.

and the statement "you're either a high level player or you're not" does not justify the statement "mid level play doesnt exist"

The existance of one superior quality does not invalidate the existence of another, inferior quality. All you've said with the first statement is that its impossible to be two things at once (duh). However, that impossibility does not rule out the possiblity of simply being another thing all together.

are you seriously that daft?

Further more, I could argue that mid level players are simply on their way to high level play, (hence the analogy to undergrad education) and just havent attained it yet. I thought you'dput 2+2 together but i guess not.

 

[Kira-]

Man melee is all tech skill brawl is the real game it has more mindgames

 

[Dark Hart]

alright

whatever

you guys can live in you fantasy world where we can justify Marth > Fox because most players can't lcancel on shield correctly and therefore get grabbed more than they should

have fun with that guys

 

[FoxLisk]

Can't we just define it as people who make bracket at tournaments with multiple rounds of pool (apex, rom 3, pound) as "high level" and people that make it to later rounds of pools but get eliminated as "mid level" and leave it as that?

yes. but that's not how KK has been defining it. the kind of play that he's been describing as mid-level would only make it out of first round pools if they got a very easy pool.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If you want to change the definition then go for it.

 

[Roneblaster]

I think you guys are underestimating just how bad i play when it counts.

 

[Hydro_Smasher]

Falcon.

I mean, come on. he's the Ryu of Smash. A big giant guy who runs around punching and kicking. who is a race car driver, Gymnist, bounty hunter, and super model.

 

[Cyrain]

LuigiLover62 is mid level play

Oh man I laughed at this for like 2 minutes.

 

[Divinokage]

Ganon doesn't change from high level to mid.. he still would get 17th no matter the tournament lol.

 

[Bamesy]

lol that's kind of almost actually 100% accurate
What about low play?
still 17th? Or too beast for low level at all

 

[Divinokage]

lol that's kind of almost actually 100% accurate
What about low play?
still 17th? Or too beast for low level at all

Like Worldwide tournament = Ganon 13-17th
Regionals = Ganon 17th (That is assuming no high level Ganons are there)
Low level.. well.. umm.. They don't get out of pools?

 

[Bamesy]

But other low levels run into Ganon stuff...
So low level tourney would mean Ganon wins...or am I totally off lol

Low level is like DownB and Fair spam only lol

 

[Stratford]

This thread is reminding us just how bad we are. So cruel

 

[Tairseth]

While this thread is interesting to me, it seems that no one has made any progress in defining anything. I have stable tech skill but lack MU experience due to where I live and I might consider myself mid level.

So my question is...
Does your level of (theorized) play depend on your tournament ranking or something else?

 

[Blarg I'm Dead]

IMO

low-level - has a solid idea of how to play, but strategies are limited. Tech skill/spacing sucks, etc. [Fox that only kills with usmash/uair, shiek that spams fair] Generally doesn't get far in tourneys but on the right track.

mid level- tech skill/spacing is better but not perfect, better at playing their character [Falco that knows combos besides pillaring and does things besides spam lasers, Marth is faster due to l-cancels, can pull off the occasional ken combo] never wins tourneys, but actually wins a few matches, progressively getting better.

high/top level- self explanatory.

My examples probably suck, but I think you get the point.

 

[ChivalRuse]

marth for number 1. at low lvl play the simplicity of marth makes him really easy to use.

I see your Marth and raise you Peach.

i call marth and peach and go all in with sheik.

I just saw this. You guys are funny.

 

[❀W.E.M.P.❀]

I think mid-level play should be a little more exclusive ( of course it includes me lolrofllolherpshirp ), say the people who we don't think have a 'realistic' chance at winning big tournaments, but people who get between 10-33 pretty consistently.

But really.... now that I think about it, why have a different match up chart at that point..? I would backspace/delete this whole post, but I still think that is a better term for a 'mid-level' player ), the rest of us are just wild cards, waiting to explode on the scene ( and on my face ).

Jesus christ I love melee.

 

[tarheeljks]

I think mid-level play should be a little more exclusive ( of course it includes me lolrofllolherpshirp ), say the people who we don't think have a 'realistic' chance at winning big tournaments, but people who get between 10-33 pretty consistently.

But really.... now that I think about it, why have a different match up chart at that point..? I would backspace/delete this whole post, but I still think that is a better term for a 'mid-level' player ), the rest of us are just wild cards, waiting to explode on the scene ( and on my face ).

Jesus christ I love melee.

would be a bad way to define "the middle" imo. if you are the 30th best player at a national (or big tourney w/depth) you are elite relative to the average tournament player

 

[Divinokage]

Even top 50 players in the world are pretty damn good in general.

 

[KirbyKaze]

yeah mid level is more like

the people that don't get out of pools

and even then some of them don't count 'cuz of death pools and whatever

 

[Lovage]

i think luigis pretty **** at mid level haha

then his potential drastically goes down the better ppl get

 

[Divinokage]

i think luigis pretty **** at mid level haha

then his potential drastically goes down the better ppl get

Idk man Ka-master was ****ing good.. lol.

 

[Roneblaster]

Sheik and marth are the best 2 chars at low levels, maybe mid level depending on ur definition.

 

[Rubyiris]

cool I'm apparently better than mid-level in both of the definitions provided. =D

I'm moving up in the world! =D

 

[❀W.E.M.P.❀]

That's fair enough, I am fine being wrong, I just wanted a better idea of what mid-level was, thanks for the explanations <333


I guess I am mid-level... who do I have the most trouble against...... sheiks and floaties I guess. I somehow do better against higher leveled sheiks ( not top lol ) than lower level sheiks.


I agree with lovage, decent/good/(high)mid-level luigis piss me the **** off.

 

[xbombr]

Samus is a good mid-level character. You don't have to be too technical to be good with her unless you're playing against top-level players.

Also she has a way out of mildly sloppy shield pressure and a decent projectile game.

It's also a lot easier to recover against a mid-level player with Samus than it is a high level player since it's less about the speed of your recovery than it is the length and versatility (which Samus has although her recovery speed is low).

She definitely does better against spacies that don't play flawlessly even when she's played slightly flawed than she does when both players play flawlessly. If that makes any sense. She also does alright against a few of her tougher counters (Like Ganon and Marth) if they don't have top-level spacing.

 

[choknater]

haha yea luigi is about slowing down the pace of the game and winning encounters.

 

[0Room]

I like this definition.

I feel like people are going to underestimate mid-level. Even low-level isn't terrible, assuming we're strictly speaking in terms of tournament level players. A mid-level tournament player should have his technical skill down, and is really only being held back by the inability to make more sophisticated decisions and reactions.

Even a low-level player should slaughter casual players.

Yeah without a defined mid level play this is kinda useless
Our speculations are flying from beginner [missing L cancels] to near high level.

I agree with Melomaniacal, I think that a mid level player needs to be defined as someone who has a decent amount of tech skill [not necessarily a ridiculous amount but can have it] but struggles with MUs due to [mostly] inexperience, symptoms being, but not limited to, poor decision making/reactions.


That being said, easy to play characters are definitely up there
Personally I see these things as I'm helping ASU develop it's smash scene.
I myself wouldn't make over a Midlevel player using my own definition, and so you can take my input as you will. But this is what I'm noticing.

~#1 Sheik~
Shiek is easiest to pick up and **** people with. My falcon match up vs Sheik has been in some serious redesign after someone started really using ftils much more, and so we have two to three people who just have gravitated to this character because of how easy she is.

~#2 Marth~
Marth is very close behind with his ridiculous Fsmash and useful grabs. We have two people who are using Marth pretty easily at this point, and he's still pretty useful even without wavedashing, which they're working on. With WDing they'll definitely be much more lethal, but they still have issues vs Sheik mostly.

~#3 Puff~
Not as much in singles, from what I've seen, because as a better player than the people I'm teaching I definitely control the match a lot more. However, in teams, or FFAs, Jiggs absolutely relishes in the chaos of what's going on. Unfortunately the jiggs player really isn't interested in getting better tournament wise.

~#4 Falcon~
He's pretty easy to get and start using, even without L canceling. I've been working with the players on SHFFLing, DD, and WD, but they still have a bit to go. However, I've been stressing the needs for grabs in this game in general, not only for Falcon, and they've picked that up pretty well and really started showing signs that Falcon's a pretty easy character to pick up and play.

~#5 Peach~
I really don't think Peach is that easy to play initially, she feels rather weak and hard to kill with. We do have one Peach player here at ASU and he does pretty well, but he's having trouble really advancing his gameplay. I don't really know how to help him besides basics and things that I've seen peaches do, and so if someone could point me in the direction of someone who could that'd be great.


I would say that's the top 5 midlevel characters.
MUs would be [within these 5]

~Sheik Matchups~
Sheik vs Falcon 100000000000000000000/0. For the skill gap between players, 50/50

Sheik vs Marth 40/60. Marth usually has more of an advantage at first, until sheik players really become natural with their character. After that it switches to 60/40

Sheik vs Peach this is a strange one. I'd say anywhere from 70/30 to 50/50 depending on skill between the two

Sheik vs Puff 50/50 This one really sucks for new players who aren't really sure what to do. After they learn to be patient and punish everything puff does, I'd say it's more around 60/40.
~Marth Matchups~
Marth vs Falcon 70/30 Until Falcon really starts to learn how to combo Marth, marth ***** this match up.

Marth vs Peach 60/40 This is another strange one and can go either way, but Marth kinda has an advantage in this match up at this level imo

Marth vs Puff 50/50 This is hard for those who don't know spacing and how to use it. It can go either way imo

~Falcon MUs~
vs Puff 40/60, 60/40 if they can dthrow knee consistently. Puff just ***** them on recovery, and rest speaks for itself.

vs Peach 50/50 Depends on how much Peach controls space around Falcon.

~Peach~
vs Puff 50/50 Boringggggggggggggg and hard for both players since no one dies.

I think that's everyone. Let me know if you need clarification/continuation

 

[Kyu Puff]

ICE CLIMBERS ARE BOTTOM TIER @ mid level LOL

i didn't read this thread but

wat

ics are like top tier at mid level; nobody knows how to play against them

 

[Brookman]

I can't agree with that since it's based on people's lack of knowledge vs. a character.

Might as well put yoshi up on top with em, if that's all that is required to be top tier @ mid-level.

 

[Kyu Puff]

yoshi is an easy match-up, ics is a difficult one

if you're assuming they know the match-up perfectly it's no longer mid-level...

 

[Brookman]

yoshi is an easy match up?? at mid level?? It seems you're giving 'mid-level' IC players more credit than 'mid-level' yoshi players.

 

[Signia]

I thought this thread was about matchups, not characters

There are already 1000 threads about which character is easiest to play, we should just talk about matchups that are different in high level play and how they change as they get better, it'd be far more interesting.

That said, the matchups I believe are different in high level play than mid level play are Marth vs. Sheik, Falcon vs. everyone, and Top tiers vs. low tiers.

At low-mid level, Marth vs. Sheik is 30:70, and it gradually improves till high level where it's almost even (like 45:55). If the Marth player does not know how to play safe, he will get *****. Sheik will shield grab Marth all day, and without good DI, he will take so much damage from each grab with braindead easy combos that mid level Sheik can perform. This is assuming mid-level Marth won't jump out of the chaingrab, wont SDI the ftilts, and wont know when to interrupt with a fair. Both will be clueless as to how to edgeguard with cancels each other out. But once Marth plays a little safer, he gets grabbed less and when he does get grabbed, he doesn't take very much damage. Marth's uthrow seems more dangerous than Sheik's dthrow at low percentages, and he can play a spacing/DD game that he can win as long he doesn't make a mistake. Both edgeguards get crazy strong. As a mid level Marth player this is my favorite matchup and it's the only one I feel I've completely figured out... but damn did it feel like a steep uphill battle at first.

Falcon's matchups really seem to change at higher level. The main reason is the Falcon's ability to combo, and the ability to DI out of death combos where his death combos are very difficult to escape. Before the Falcon gets good though, he fights an uphill battle against everyone, even low tiers. Every mid level player can edgeguard and combo a Falcon. It's too easy. Falcon will not be able to do either until later, at least not without killing himself.

Low tiers seem to do just fine against mid level players, but the matchups get worse and worse as players get better. In a tournament, low tier players usually have the advantage against mid level players because they will almost certainly not know the matchup, but later on they will find out exactly why their character is low tier.

 

[Geist]

ICs could potentially be pretty high on this imo
Anyone here ever win a match by wobbling alone?