Guide The Mario Match-Up Discussion Thread

[M@1funk$hun]

I already posted in the dr. pp advice thread

 

[A2ZOMG]

I dunno about calling vs Falco merely momentum related and dependent on players. The truth of the matter is that if you play perfectly and he does too, his options are PLAIN BETTER and make it ridiculously hard for Mario to approach or do much of anything.

He gets you offstage more easily. He walls you MUCH better. He's probably worse at kills since he doesn't have brain dead easy setups besides like Jab cancel Smash (CCing against Falco however is very difficult most of the time) but he still kills you just fine since he gets you offstage easily. You literally can't land most of your moves on him when his stuff is spaced and L-canceled and he eats your small shield frighteningly fast.

That sounds like a 30/70 matchup to me personally. It isn't worse since of course, the whole idea is that he loses if he ****s up.

 

[j3ly]

i think u just have private issues against falco. L2powershield -> fair -> grab -> death, and WD oos. you said WD bait is basically the best thing to do against falco, so u got a long way to go pal. marth is marios worst matchup btw. not even IMO, its just set in stone lool.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Nah I don't actually think Mario Falco is even I just felt like posting that arbitrarily

Falco definitely wins

I dunno by how much but he works less hard to control Mario and the onus is always on Mario to be better or to get through the spam and his combos on Mario are better than Mario's on him (except on like FD basically)

PS isn't a super broken answer because Mario's got no range and his speed is average - it works much better for Marth because when they PS --> move their move is somewhat expected to **** whatever defensive thingy Falco does in the mean time, or at least be safe, and they have huge range and great speed attached

Mario doesn't really have any of that...

Like, seriously, PS lasers do like half damage and they don't stun forever. If they stunned for twice as long as a normal laser then I'd feel differently but they don't.

Smart Falcos don't EVER get hit by PS Knees/Dairs by Falcon, they're not going to get hit by PS Fairs from Mario (which are about the same speed class and they feel SLOWER but that might just be because of range who knows, I'm not going to bother consulting frame data for fawkin Mario LOL) unless they forget they can CC, shield, roll, sidestep, WD, dash away, Shine, etc. before the Fair comes knockin'

 

[j3ly]

nice post. i dont feel like arguing because ive said my piece but there were some good points in there.

regardless i think mario can combo falco much better than falco can combo mario, due to marios floatyness. falco has jump shine tricks for added comboability, but mario can deal in 0-deaths whereas falco is going to seriously struggle with that.

we have a cape goddammit, forget PS for the majority of the time. jump cape -> aerial is good because it kind of counters a fake laser, and u can get uair in afterwards str8 away

cool trick - if falco approaches with a laser close to you, upB. the upB will be canceled by the laser, and falco will be in an amazing spot to combo him
long for spellcheck foac that.

 

[condemned_soul]

ok what does PS stand for?

I feel like the only big advantage falco has is the laser. without them hes just on upwards shining fox.

its between 65/35 and 60/40 and im leaning torwards 60/40.

 

[j3ly]

power shield lol

 

[Lordydennek]

lol 60 40 then? I think its about that too. on fd its 90 10...lol for me. I suck there.
so vote on it
60 40
i say yes

 

[-PM-]

For the people who thing the match balances out on maps with platforms, you arn't playing that many falco's. They'll still whoop you as hard if not harder (depending on their play style) on a map with platforms. I have a friend who plays falco and he actually prefers to take mario to yoshi's just so he can double shine him off the ceiling.

FD I would say the matchup is 40 - 60 just because you can literally chain grab him to death. Don't even get fance just beat his ***. On Platform maps like BattleField or Yoshi's its is around 35 - 75. Simply because when it comes down to it there is more falco can do with platforms then mario can.

 

[condemned_soul]

so what are we rating this match up?

it sounds like its going to be 65/35 falco because most stages have platforms so falco should feel a little safe.

 

[j3ly]

no platforms = good, i think u misunderstood PM. but platforms give us the ability to cape every single laser so long as there is space inbetween mario and falco

 

[condemned_soul]

ok well DJ Nintendo just said the falco MU is even in the other thread. i think im going to debate either even or 55/45.

my vote is even but im not the only voice on the boards. im trying to sum up everyone into a unanimous decision.

 

[KirbyKaze]

nice post. i dont feel like arguing because ive said my piece but there were some good points in there.

regardless i think mario can combo falco much better than falco can combo mario, due to marios floatyness. falco has jump shine tricks for added comboability, but mario can deal in 0-deaths whereas falco is going to seriously struggle with that.

we have a cape goddammit, forget PS for the majority of the time. jump cape -> aerial is good because it kind of counters a fake laser, and u can get uair in afterwards str8 away

cool trick - if falco approaches with a laser close to you, upB. the upB will be canceled by the laser, and falco will be in an amazing spot to combo him
long for spellcheck foac that.

On FD and near the edge Mario deals in 0-deaths. Otherwise, no. When Falco hits a plat vs Mario during a combo it can routinely suck. Why? Because Mario's air launchers suck balls and he doesn't have a knee-like KB aerial to just be like "Yo, you're dead" a la Falcon. Uairs BARELY launch Falco, probably don't even lift him directly off the ground by enough to combo until like monster percents. Fair is slow, waveland follows are also slow.

With a plat, which is where a ton of combo take place since they're on like 4/5 neutrals, Falco's Dair and U-tilt almost guarantee a better combo setup on their own. Shine sucks for big combos on Mario after like 15-25 or w/e, you're supposed to switch to U-tilt and put them on plats for the super easy Dair/U-tilt/tech chases. Trying to do a long Shine combo to Mario with Falco is futile LOL and won't work ever but Dair U-tilt *****.

Cape as ultimate anti-laser only works if you cape the first laser. Otherwise it's too slow. And I'm pretty sure it's too slow to use OOS if they're just laser spamming (not that I think you said that, but seriously when you can't normal block a laser and then do something OOS to counter the next one it's kind of gay).

I'm not going to bother addressing Cape + aerial as approach in too much detail because I don't see anyone use it at high level play (which makes me skeptical of its usefulness) but I'd think Falco could just throw a move at it and then they'd probably get a combo. Mario's moves aren't exactly difficult to beat with Falco's... any manner of Bair, U-tilt, and Nair usually have the advantage against any of Mario's moves but like F-smash and U-tilt.

Up+B OOS is cool.

 

[j3ly]

we've both said our bits its up to the community now.

you neglected to mention marios bair, probably the best way to approach/camp/zone/run away/chase falco. would u mind?

 

[condemned_soul]

On FD and near the edge Mario deals in 0-deaths. Otherwise, no. When Falco hits a plat vs Mario during a combo it can routinely suck. Why? Because Mario's air launchers suck balls and he doesn't have a knee-like KB aerial to just be like "Yo, you're dead" a la Falcon. Uairs BARELY launch Falco, probably don't even lift him directly off the ground by enough to combo until like monster percents. Fair is slow, waveland follows are also slow.

when falco hits the platform, its not that hard to Nair or Bair him off the platform (Tech chase). sometimes when this happen, a simple jab leads to another grab and if you land on another platfrom......as a matter of fact all of the aerials work when falco hits a platform. i do agree that Uair is not the best option but it does come in handy.

With a plat, which is where a ton of combo take place since they're on like 4/5 neutrals, Falco's Dair and U-tilt almost guarantee a better combo setup on their own. Shine sucks for big combos on Mario after like 15-25 or w/e, you're supposed to switch to U-tilt and put them on plats for the super easy Dair/U-tilt/tech chases. Trying to do a long Shine combo to Mario with Falco is futile LOL and won't work ever but Dair U-tilt *****.

sad but true. there are ways to get around it but its way too much compared to what falco has to do.

Cape as ultimate anti-laser only works if you cape the first laser. Otherwise it's too slow. And I'm pretty sure it's too slow to use OOS if they're just laser spamming (not that I think you said that, but seriously when you can't normal block a laser and then do something OOS to counter the next one it's kind of gay).

This is why i am learning to use the shield reflect thingy. If the first one hits you, then you will have a chance to reflect the next one. Even if it doesnt work all the time, its still good to do if the cape isnt putting in the work.

I'm not going to bother addressing Cape + aerial as approach in too much detail because I don't see anyone use it at high level play (which makes me skeptical of its usefulness) but I'd think Falco could just throw a move at it and then they'd probably get a combo. Mario's moves aren't exactly difficult to beat with Falco's... any manner of Bair, U-tilt, and Nair usually have the advantage against any of Mario's moves but like F-smash and U-tilt.

I use Nair as a approach to get falco. If falco shields, up+B comes right after it since falco will most likely either Dair, shine, or grab after it. if the nair lands, ill most likely try a jab>grab. the cape aerial gives us time to get you while you are off the stage. theres nothing like a aerial nair that stops falcos over+B. thats where the falco loses a stock

Up+B OOS is cool.

you should see in done on YI since it can reach the top platforms

im saying this MU is even because mario and falco have just as many options as each other. This match is just who can take advantage of who

 

[KirbyKaze]

@ j3ly

i don't think it's super notable for zoning and whatever since falco's bair beats it, falco's u-tilt beats it, falco's dair coming on top of it beats it, falco's laser turns him around thus negating bair for a lil' while, etc. in order to counter lasers you generally turn around to cape so even some of mario's proactive defenses vs falco prevent him from using his bair, etc.

this is without going into how it's got low range, etc.

fake cc and real cc will both protect falco from being combo'd super heavily by it off a plat.

it's good for edgeguard/gimping. it's good for air combos.

@ condemned soul

meh hitting them off the plat with nair usually means ending the combo imo, mario's stuck with too much lag to really effectively follow and anything involving a jab setup can be escaped pretty easily nowadays unless you do the 3 hit combo and push them away from cc shine range, jabs are getting weaker with more people diing for the reset and generally being more comfortable ccing

nair is alright but again mario isn't a super fast character and it's not exacly hard for falco to cc shine/u-tilt/toss most of his air moveset at it and beat it. shine oos will come out before a nair --> up+b btw, unless you do late nair, which means you'd be sacrificing an active hitbox.

i'm not saying nair won't wokr but like

falco's great on defense loool

and i already went over why jab setups are like balls nowadays vs good people

YS is baller

 

[j3ly]

FH dair beats out all of falcos moves. punishes utilt and bair stings nicely

 

[condemned_soul]

Nair=sex kick so as long as we land the hit and Lcancel, mario should be able to keep the upper hand for the moment.

 

[A2ZOMG]

i think u just have private issues against falco. L2powershield -> fair -> grab -> death, and WD oos. you said WD bait is basically the best thing to do against falco, so u got a long way to go pal. marth is marios worst matchup btw. not even IMO, its just set in stone lool.

Powershielding is fine and dandy but does nothing to stop Falco from poking you to death (and I also believe it's hard to powershield with Mario, since his shield size is small), which he literally can do really easily. I'd say he actually outpokes Mario better than Marth does, since it's much harder to randomly WD in to punish.

And yes WD baiting is the best thing to do against Falco (besides powershielding I guess). And it sucks against him. Most of Mario's options against Falco just suck. Unless Falco just flat out makes a terrible mistake.

Marth is bad for Mario, but 6/4 in Marth's favor. Marth has punishable spacing and gaps between his moves, and crouching forces him to have very precise spacing. He doesn't kill Mario nearly as easily as Fox, Ganon, or Peach are able to. He just has better spacing and decent juggles and edgeguards, but his spacing actually has existent gaps. He's also much easier to edgeguard than all the characters I mentioned in this paragraph.

A well-played Falco on the other hand literally doesn't have any real gaps in his spacing. You just basically hope he misses an L-cancel or over commits to D-airs like a moron without safely backing them up with lasers. He doesn't have to do any of that. His moves which are just as fast as if not faster than Mario's just flat out destroy Mario in neutral position.

Fullhop D-air loses to lasers and Falco's B-air badly. I learned that the hard way.

 

[j3ly]

I dont know what else to say i main falco im done defending this mario character.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Nair=sex kick so as long as we land the hit and Lcancel, mario should be able to keep the upper hand for the moment.

It's not that simple.

But I don't feel like getting into the specifics of why Falco's moves have bigger hitbox bubbles than Mario, the silliness of crouch cancel vs weak moves (and sometimes even strong moves), how the shield and shield stun work in relation to where the move hits the shield, and several other things.

So I'll just be comfortable knowing you're wrong.

 

[n0ne]

yeah. and full hop dair is actually pretty predictable also marios Fall speed is not too good vs falco. And i imagine you are talking about autocanceling it so that means no FF. and falco can just reverse utilt or space then laser and hell combo.

I think the way to play against falco is wavedashing and wavelanding in front and behind and hitting aerials.kind of like i do.,.. watching out for a shieldgrab from him.

Also, remember when to use up tilt. its very good. if u can SMELL it wont be CCed

and 4 aproaches... you can shorthop, reverse cape bair or something else.
Works because cape returns lasers even if turned the other way, and turns you the other way around in the process. allowing for faster bair. watchout if laser wits you AFTER the cape, youll just be turned around again.

 

[j3ly]

lol no its crucial that u auto cancel it and fit in a fast fall.

 

[Blanky]

ehhh i dont like dairs against falcos. good falcos would **** it.

 

[Lordydennek]

I think falco ultimately has way more options...in the end he can out camp us and like kk said if he doesnt mess up he offense we cant do anything. lol i think fox is easier bcuz he has no stun lasers and you can bait him better
i say 60 40. falco

 

[j3ly]

mango begs to differ, whereas he couldent do it with pichu so dont pull 'he is mango' out.

i think the matchup is even, lets get more opinions so we can move onto FALCON!! <3

 

[n0ne]

naaaah, i think its the other way around.
the problem is that falcos pretty much play the same way... THEY ARE ALWAYS AGGRESSIVE.
thats why people choose falco in the 1st place. to control the match.

But with Fox....... People can play aggressively , or campy. Or switch it up or whatever.
And in this matchup Fox has safer moves and has less chance to get punished...

Fox is way harder to fight. IMO. A really good Fox.
In the end, Falco HAS to get close to you to kill you. and you can see it coming.
Fox just....... usmash.. or shine- offstage shine. im sure u didnt see that coming.

 

[j3ly]

fox is much much much much much much much harder to fight than mario. i feel bad for u guys over in the states, getting killed 20% earlier and having more trouble edgeguarding him.

i can edgeguard an average fox no problem, but when its an advanced fox who can DI and knows every option, it becomes harder

 

[Lordydennek]

so are we on falco as 60 40? shall i post that?

 

[n0ne]

yup thats good.
or 55-45
fox is definitly harder
In advanced play, Mario has to outsmart Falco a little with a few mindgames here and there. but once mario starts getting the hits in. alot is in his favour.
Falcos weight just works against himself.

 

[j3ly]

ill change my rating to 45/55 in falcos favour for the sake of agreement.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

what j3ly said, I believe it's even, but 55/45 because I wanna fit in
updated the first post
time to talk about the most interesting man alive
CAPTAIN FALCON

my 2 cents:
okay so personally I like to utilt a lot in this matchup
it does well against his approaches
I've found that if you just get under falcon, he's kinda screwed
OR if he likes to nair, full jump dair to grab. grabs are pretty important here because falcon is big and easy to combo
the main thing I worry about with this strategy is his dair, which can be beaten by
you guessed it
utilt
also be as unpredictable as possible
since falcon is pretty read based, it works out
THE KNEE
it'll beat you. it srsly will. like legit. good falcons aren't going to throw out knees willy nilly too.
they're very accurate with them and don't use it as an approach that much
if you're playing falcon on a stage with platforms, use those plats.
you have a stronger platform game than falcon does
if he starts chasing you around with uairs when you're on the platforms
throw some fireballs to scare him. other wise you're going to become combo food
something that beats you is his ftilt
you don't have many (if any at all) options if he throws that out. try and bait it, which I see a lot of the mario's are good at baiting in general (or your opponents are just dumb lol )
personally I like battle field for falcon because the platforms make edgeguarding him a little easier incase he likes to go high, and it's harder to sweet spot the ledge for him. plus if you di the knee correctly it's a small stage so you can get back easier

 

[condemned_soul]

ill go 55/45 to agree as well

 

[A2ZOMG]

Falcon has better stage options than Mario overall, but besides that, the matchup is pretty close to even imo. So I guess 55/45 Falcon's favor.

Mario combos and edgeguards Falcon reeeeeeeealy reaaaaaaly well and has some good situational answers to all of Falcon's approaches, so yeah. Getting juggled by Falcon sucks though, and you can't shieldgrab Raptor Boost (use Dash Attack or B-air oos if he does Raptor Boost).

 

[condemned_soul]

55/45 Falcon as well. mario doesnt have that many bad matches.....we just need to step our game up and own at tournies and we will make mid tiers in no time

A2ZOMG do you still go to tournies? if you do, do you still main mario and how well do you do.

 

[MarioMariox2]

I remember when Mario was 5th best.

 

[condemned_soul]

i remember when eggz, boss, and green mario used to post here.

 

[A2ZOMG]

55/45 Falcon as well. mario doesnt have that many bad matches.....we just need to step our game up and own at tournies and we will make mid tiers in no time

A2ZOMG do you still go to tournies? if you do, do you still main mario and how well do you do.

I went to two Melee tournaments so far last year (one of which I hosted no less). I sucked back then.

But yeah I main Mario (until I get amazingly good with Sheik...who I still suck with). I probably use Doc against Ganon since Ganon is a stupid matchup for Mario. And I main Ganon in doubles.

 

[condemned_soul]

I remember when Mario was 5th best.

he still is.....we just have to prove it. we are on the right track we just need more time

 

[n0ne]

loool race car driver.... good one

And the matchup is pretty even , Mario has good stuff against R.C.D but what u gotta remember is that in the blink of an eye Falcon can turn the match around.
Hes really dangerous and not to be underestimated also.

High up-b is is a turnoff for Mario, it just makes his life harder.

Off the tip of my mind.