Guide The Mario Match-Up Discussion Thread

[Lordydennek]

ok man. I made tons of points I guess you just cant read. Do what you want with Mario.

 

[condemned_soul]

i will do what i want with mario and atleast i play foxes that shine more then 10 a match. the spacies that I play would just sandbag you because half of the stuff you say is 50/50 because you make a point and the next post your arguing a point that is comepletely wrong. i will do i what i want with mario and do it way better then you.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

okay so on falco
as said in another thread, the cape can be used to get around lasers, but is also very punishable.
so in this aspect use the cape only when they're far away OR if you have godly timing you can cape the laser and the falco's approach from that laser (laser -> nair for example, then the laser might go under the falco cuz of the SH and then he's backwards from your cape, or the caped laser hits him, which is probably worse for mario because of the lag time on cape)
utilt is going to be your friend in this matchup because whether they approach with nair or bair, the utilt is gonna beat em out. I'm not sure what to throw out if they approach with dair (calling j3ly pls pick up)
fireball pressure may or may not work depending on the falco. if he's throwing lasers around ACCURATELY
then don't play with fire
if he's only doing a few lasers, or he's just straight up bad with them, try the fireballs
I usualy do fh fire ball cuz most falco's start with sh lasers
take him to a big stage like dreamland where his recovery won't help him
(personal choice is rainbow cruise)

 

[condemned_soul]

if falco approaches with dair, use a quick OoS move like OoS Nair. you still have to be careful because if you shield his Dair, he most likely going to pressure your shield until you make a move.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

if falco approaches with dair, use a quick OoS move like OoS Nair. you still have to be careful because if you shield his Dair, he most likely going to pressure your shield until you make a move.

I originally wrote "just shield it" but then I said "lol it's falco" so I deleted it
wd back oos fsmash?

 

[Lordydennek]

i will do what i want with mario and atleast i play foxes that shine more then 10 a match. the spacies that I play would just sandbag you because half of the stuff you say is 50/50 because you make a point and the next post your arguing a point that is comepletely wrong. i will do i what i want with mario and do it way better then you.

lol wow. kk bud. remember this is melee not brawl.

and ya not much you can do against the dair. best to get out of its way. I like the wd back to fsmash or ftilt. the nair seems a bit risky to me. then again I havent tried it really. if the falco is getting shines it too scary to jump oos...*shivers*

 

[M@1funk$hun]

Risky mario must be risky
falco wanna shine you?
**** falco
he ain't got no shine blind
he's so scared of you he's gotta use a gun
jump over that shine
dair his ***
and get into bed with his mother
got it?

 

[Bamesy]

Powershield...?

No really though, STAY ON HIM is my general thought process when playing spacies/falcon etc.

Either you're trading they're counter options with your CHOICE of approach, or you're trading THEIR CHOICE of approach with YOUR counter options.

They have more to use, YOU make the CHOICE feels better. That's for me anyway lol

 

[Lordydennek]

Risky mario must be risky
falco wanna shine you?
**** falco
he ain't got no shine blind
he's so scared of you he's gotta use a gun
jump over that shine
dair his ***
and get into bed with his mother
got it?

Not that simple tho i wish it was.
basically what bamsey said. stay on his ***
when you get in saty in until he dies. if let him break free you lose.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Vs Falco is basically a guessing game after he Shines and hoping it somehow leads to him getting grabbed or gimped. And sneaking in whatever hits you can when he makes a spacing mistake as opposed to firing more lasers. Powershielding lasers helps you not get ***** in this matchup. Caping lasers is the somewhat less effective but easier solution to bypassing lasers if you're like me and terrible at powershielding consistently.

He dies if he screws up badly enough, but a Falco that never feels pressured to make any baitable approaches and spaces his tilts and B-air carefully after protecting his approach with lasers is imo Mario's worst matchup in his ability to outmaneuver, outcamp, and outspace Mario. I would see this matchup as 7/3 Falco.

idk I just really really hate this matchup since I just never know what I'm supposed to do. Against Marth I know that I have options outside his range and up close. Against Falco...I just don't know.

 

[condemned_soul]

vs falco Fd is my favorite board to play him on. if he gets campy, cape the first few lasers which is his way of approaching and shoot a couple of fire balls. if you see he is not letting go of camping try to get semi close to him (enough room for him to atleast try to attack you.). if they attack, OoS options are very good options( i would try nairing). grabbing falco at low percentages should equal a up throw>jab>grab (you can also Dthrow, jab, grab depending on if you opponent knows the mario match up) til 30% where you can upsmash> grab>upthrow>utilt>Nair/fsmash.

If you going to Fair, try to space it with shffl which gives you the option to retreat if your dont want to take any chances or you could attack him. I usually shffl Fair>jab 2x>dair>up B since after the dair falco WILL try to attack or grab. ( This is what I do if falco block my spaced fair)

tech chasing is a little more important in this match up seeing that every hit counts. good arial moves to tech chase with are fair/nair (you can bair if you want but i dont since there are very few options afterwards).

Fair:
Low damage lead to a grab/Dsmash
Medium damage can lead to a Usmash/Utilt/use your imagination.
high damage (not super high) can lead to Bair or a Nair (a fair at 125% can lead to a Usmash/nair that could kill).

Nair:
Low damage can lead to a grab/Dsmash (at 30% if you nair and they miss the tech when they hit the ground, you can jab reset them)
Medium damage will knock them back ( at 60% if you hit them with the last part of the nair aka sex kick, you can jab reset them if they dont tech the ground)
High damage will only knock far from you.

you can tech chase with Dsmash and Fsmash on the ground (you can Usmash and utilt if you want but i suggest to do that at juggling percentages). there are no options after Dsmash or Fsmash so just keep on tech chasing if you can.

 

[Lordydennek]

you like fighting falco on fd????? that is crazy sounding to me. but if you like it go ahead.
the platforms are a necessary in this fight. I usually go dreamland. but i agree with everything else you said. again the full hop nair is really really good here. dont be afraid to btrhow him off the edge and wait for the cape. but he's pretty easy to combo so after you get past the lasers and get a hit youre ok. i really hate to say this...but this is one mu that Doc fairs a lot better than we do. hes got that gimp power at looow percents and falco is super vulnerable to it.

i rate the mu at 65 35.

Csoul-what do you rate it?

 

[condemned_soul]

65-35 because as long as we have the grab, we are good its just getting there is the problem

i used to take them to battle field until i got triple daired by shaedens falco. I cant look at that board without thinking about it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I actually prefer fighting all space animals on FD since I like chaingrabbing. It's not like platforms are actually bad for Falco either. He has some NASTY tricks with platforms.

Caping and powershielding are much more important than platforms for getting around Falco's lasers.

DL 64 is a good Falco CP since it promotes your survival I guess.

If you're next to the edge when you grab him, throwing him offstage is probably more worthwhile than chaingrabbing him. Money shotting him can be very profitable.

 

[MarioMariox2]

Y'know what's bad? DL64 is everyone's counterpick. Against each other no less.

 

[Bamesy]

DL ew
That's what I pick AGAINST Doc AS Falcon.
You can't outsurvive something you can't catch, you can't get something offstage if you can catch it...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Really? I definitely can think of a few matchups where DL64 obviously favors someone.

Ganon/Falcon vs Peach is more skewed towards Peach on DL64
Falco as mentioned doesn't benefit that much from it. Similarly Roy gets very little out of DL64.

 

[j3ly]

the new falco is nasty on DL64
NEVER TAKE GANON HERE

the reason i say this is because everybody is either in the process of, or has completed copying the top falco - and the top falco all utilt -> shine waveland -> continue / dash attack -> waveland -> continue / shine -> waveland -> continue.

on a stage like DL, we can be utilted and they can jump up and shine waveland us at high %'s. DL is an amazing stage for falco to combo everybody on cos of jump shine waveland

battlefield is good cos they cant slide up the wall in their upB. but, final D is imo by far the best counterpick against falco. we have chaingrab, which is guaranteed death from 0% if you're good enough. grabs are really hard to land, but we have guaranteed setups for grabs so its not all that bad.

fair -> charged fsmash is fairly reliable killer from 100% to 150%
uthrow -> fsmash works well here, as does dthrow -> fsmash

WD back fsmash/dsmash is essential vs falco. punish every single hasty approach with flaming fire in his face :D

 

[Lordydennek]

wd back fsmash is so leet. maybe its just me but i hate falco on fd. poke isnt bad.

btw what was our official rating on fox.
i have to say 60 40 at worst.
at best 55 45

 

[condemned_soul]

60/40 gets my vote

 

[Lordydennek]

anyone else have a say on final numbers for fox and falco?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'll say 60/40 Fox's favor. Falco wins 70/30 overall.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

I alrdy put in 60/40 so suck it =P
but 70/30 for falco because of what J3ly said

 

[-PM-]

Falco I find easier then fox just because there isn't that nasty shine. Remember that falco isn't so manly if you can power shield lazers. Surprisingly most people don't expect a mario to power shield a lazer > grab > then 0 death him. Yes falco is still extremely manly but everyone knows that lazers destroys mario pretty badly.

 

[MarioMariox2]

Falco's stopping power makes all the difference in the Fox/Mario vs Falco/Mario matchups.

 

[condemned_soul]

lasers do the most work because falco can combo after it but i do give falco to be our worst match up. im think im going to practice powershielding.

 

[-PM-]

If you power shield a lazer 9 out of 10 times he'll get hit by it and be stunned that it even happened.

 

[j3ly]

or he can fake a lazer, jump into ur shield and punish you horribly. im onto this and i dont main falco, so it must be pretty standard.

same with the cape - if falco can predict the cape, empty hop -> charged fsmash or watever.

the best option against a lazer has, and always will be approach/zone with a full hop aerial. in this case, run to a platform or FH dair.

i disagree with the majority of things said on this thread so far,

fox - mario (70-30)
falco - mario (50-50)

thats imo the matchups against spacies. with practise mario can turn falcos utilt and lazer camping into a liability for falco. a smart falco has the tools to turn it around, and combo well off the hits, but thats adapting and were not really discussing mindgames

This matchup is far more about not letting ur opponent kill you, as opposed to trying to kill your opponent. we can get alot more off our hits on falco than he can get off us, and unlike fox - its very unlikely he will return to the stage after being launched and smashed. CG is a nice trick but its hard to grab a falco.

the second that falco decides to turn around and utilt, he is potentially dead. FH dair AC is too fast, and we have so many combo options off it. if you can avoid being spiked, then we have an easier time killing him (on favourable stages) cause with good DI bair doesn't really do squat. unfortunatly, the likelihood of not being spiked is slim, because dair -> dair works soooo good on mario. but lets say u keep centre stage 80% of the game, that falco is going to have serious trouble killing you.

we have reflector, faster ground speed, 0-deaths, chaingrab, CAPE, WD off stage bair, and a dair that outprioratizes his ground attacks And has no lag if timed correctly, which sets up for 0-deaths. utilt is not as useful here as against falcon as a combo starter, but dair is much more useful than in other matchups - and leads into utilt, which is our primary means of comboing falco. read what i said, utilt doesnt start combos so well in this matchup but it always continues them.

fox on the other hand can run away and shoot lazers, has one of his best combo games on mario ( ) and reliably kills us at 80% on every stage. qtf, 70/30y

ps -PM- falcons do NOT want to space behind marios shield. we can nair oos extreamly quickly or uair pretty fast and combo off it. his best option would be to space an attack and either run away after and space another, or late aerial -> jab, seeing as not enough players have down cancel -> grab down oos. watch how everybody learns to crouch oos and get a grab off late aerial -> jab in a few months time.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The best strategy against Falco is basically the WD bait, except it loses baaaaadly to lasers.

And Falco walls the hell out of Mario with his superior B-air, lasers, and U-tilt if it's used specifically to anti-air your jumps.

Yeah he doesn't kill you quite as consistently as Fox, but actually approaching or baiting him pretty much only happens if he screws up.

 

[Lordydennek]

lol wow. well the average of the final umbers is basically 60 40 on both spacie matches...which is what it was before. lol.

So vote on this and i will post the final values in teh icys thread if you guys want me to.

just give a yes or no on 60 40 for both spacies

 

[A2ZOMG]

I dunno, I can agree to that against Fox. But I think Falco is CLEARLY worse for Mario. Fox can be baited into making critical errors since his offensive maneuvers will always be direct (and he doesn't have as much range as Falco), but part of the reason Fox kinda wins is just because Mario doesn't kill or gimp him as easily as the other way around (keeping up in damage is fairly easy). In order for Falco to make a critical error...well yeah sure he gets ****ed up badly when he makes a critical error (big reason why I like FD against Falco: chaingrabs). However that error is pretty much a question of how consistent his tech skill is. A CONSISTENT Falco who deliberately pulls off his safe maneuvers without technical error I believe is Mario's worst matchup, always able to outspace Mario and maintain a far superior neutral stance. It doesn't matter if he's playing the matchup offensively or defensively. He just has to do it consistently.

Fox does better when it comes to kills, but Falco does kill Mario pretty easily too between Jab cancel -> Fsmash/Dsmash and B-air (especially for edgeguards). CC D-tilt from Falco is also really annoying.

 

[j3ly]

In order for Falco to make a critical error...well yeah sure he gets hurt when he makes a critical error (big reason why I like FD against Falco: chaingrabs). However that error is pretty much a question of how consistent his tech skill is.

A CONSISTENT Falco who deliberately pulls off his safe maneuvers without technical error I believe is Mario's worst matchup, always able to outspace Mario and maintain a far superior neutral stance. It doesn't matter if he's playing the matchup offensively or defensively. He just has to do it consistently.

This is a description of falco momentum. You are explaining what tools falco has to win games in general, that doesn't qualify as an argument. Mario can space against falco too, when he gets momentum. Then he can 0-cape him.

The best strategy against Falco is basically the WD bait.

Incorrect. Thats such a general comment, the best strategy is going to change all the time.

technically.. 1 hit = combo off stage. falco off stage = cape or bair guaranteed death

im not saying im that good im just sayin. mario can assassinate. 50/50.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

so J3ly what you're saying is the falco/mario matchup is momentum based?
I think Falco is much better at holding momentum than Mario is, so I'm gonna say 65/35 based on that
and usually, even if you're bad at them, mindgames can work well against common falcos because they get very techy/ do mindless pillaring

keep it 60/40 for fox. you have a lot of ways to get in on him. the only strategy he can succesfully do to us is laser camp, and even then I don't think it's full proof. Mario is pretty rushdown so he's good at getting in their face if they wanna camp

 

[j3ly]

i think getting momentum comes down to tricks and knowledge of situations. nearly 100% player not character.

i am saying that all matches are momentum based lol. But a description of that doesn't qualify as a reason falco beasts mario in the matchup

 

[M@1funk$hun]

i think getting momentum comes down to tricks and knowledge of situations. nearly 100% player not character.

true true. as I posted above, most falco's don't have mindgames except for the high level ones, so if you can out think em, you can probably get past their walls

i am saying that all matches are momentum based lol. But a description of that doesn't qualify as a reason falco beasts mario in the matchup

I figured haha
after reading your post I did that confused head tilt thing dogs do, basically thinking what you posted above

 

[Lordydennek]

ok fox is finalized at 60 40

now on falco we have a
50/50
60/40
65/35
vote

 

[M@1funk$hun]

I vote 65/35

 

[KirbyKaze]

Falco Mario is dead even

 

[M@1funk$hun]

I just played some matches with my friend's falco
kirbykaze, you're completely right
I feel dumb for saying 65/35 before
because once you get past those lasers, it's just a fun match in general
veeeerrry fun matchup

 

[condemned_soul]

Im starting to agree because when i played dope, It got easier when he let go of the lasers. I played him in friendlies a while back and he won the first match and I won the second match because he fell victim to a charged Fsmash.

I think we should get some falco here so we can debate/discuss this