Guide The Mario Match-Up Discussion Thread

[Blanky]

I say 60/40 or worse for the YL match-up.
idk about pika. only played one, and he was a peach main.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario definitely has an advantage against Pikachu, but it's not as crazy as 70-30. Lol.

How many Mario users has AXE played? I want to see how he does the matchup.

Seriously, Mario is ridiculously terrible for Pikachu. Your moves are just plain better than his, and you can basically 0-death him from a grab from what I can tell. And he kills Mario...how? Just avoid the tailspike and the Thunderflip. He really can't kill you without those, and they just really shouldn't hit you much if at all if you're willing to be a little gay. His grab is both terrible and non-rewarding too, so shielding just mostly makes him not a threat.

And Mario is mean to YL too. But against Pikachu he's probably like Pikachu's 2nd worst matchup after Sheik lol.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Mario's horizontal priority is sooo much better than Pikachu's (Pikachu has decent vertical priority with uair, but he doesn't have hitboxes below him. Lol), and that's pretty much the only thing that matters in the matchup.

 

[condemned_soul]

anther pikachu in melee is legit played him a couple months ago and I can clearly soo the advantage mario has over pika but you will have some problemsif they are stay quick and can use the uair really well. Id say 60/40 mario or 55/45 Mario

 

[M@1funk$hun]

55/45 Mario I think for pikachu

if he's quick enough, which most pikas should be, then we'll have trouble

but not much if he's predictable

 

[ChivalRuse]

Pikachu's uair beats crouch cancelling, but he has to fall down a bit before he can place his uair that low to the ground, which means an f-smash will connect every time. Pikachu has to resort to tricks like SH wavelanding back in order to have a chance at an approach.

What this boils down to is an annoying time for Pika.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm just saying, Mario is better against Pikachu than he is against YL. And most of us agree that YL is a 60/40 advantage at minimum for Mario. I don't see how 70/30 is unreasonable. I mean really...it is just awful for Pikachu in general. Not Sheik vs Bowser awful, but definitely just something he shouldn't be winning very often.

YL sorta can kill Mario onstage even though he sucks at it. And he has some moves that you don't want to challenge directly, and he does camp better. We just destroy him hard for getting close though.

I mean we also basically destroy Pikachu once we get close, but he doesn't even have moves besides U-air that you have to worry about when you're spacing against him. And how he kills Mario onstage just doesn't register with me.

 

[StealthyGunnar]

dthrow ***** pika. only thing he can do is get some lucky uairs in.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Pikachu has tools against Mario, that's why. He has better footspeed and good ability to fake out Mario. If he can trick Mario into CCing, and uair can lead to good stuff for Pikachu. Also, Pikachu clearly has the advantage in recovery. I think 60-40 is the limit for how well Mario does.

I also think Mario vs YL isn't necessarily 60-40. It might only be 55-45 or something like that, since YL doesn't technically have to approach and has the ability to run away if need be.

@ Cash: Pikachu's u-throw has the potential to air trap Mario decently, and b-throw can lead to gimps reasonably well.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's not like Mario can't do nasty things to Pikachu's recovery either. His recovery is also very susceptible to getting punished if you play a good ledge game. Yes Mario's recovery isn't good and U-airs are pretty nasty to it, but your B-air edgeguarding is also very practical in this matchup. More practical than vs Sheik if you ask me.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I didn't mean to imply that Mario can't do anything to a recovering Pikachu, only that Pikachu has the upper hand in that department.

 

[StealthyGunnar]

ya pikachu ***** mario if it's axe. but who's as good as him?

 

[j3ly]

a2 - take that back, maybe im just a natural but mario still has the best recovery for me aside from jiggs. PAL helps cos i am floatier also

edgauardin pika comes down to a mixture of baiting through repetition, and prediction really - there is always a route she can take that will allow her to recover 100% unphased but she wont take it every time if u play ur cards right

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yo man, I survive forever with every character I play. I'm not complaining, but Mario's recovery isn't good. It's average. Workable if you DI, but it's probably going to get punished if your opponent plays a good ledge game.

Jiggs's recovery is god tier. Good recoveries are those like Fox, Peach, and Sheik's recoveries. Yeah you can punish them on a good read, but they usually have an option that will get them back safely.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

sheik's recovery is good?

when did this happen?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Read carefully:

Good recoveries always have an option to make it back safely, but can be punished on a read.

Sheik's recovery mostly fits that category. It's pretty much a 50/50 between her going for the ledge or landing on stage, and you really can't cover both at once most of the time. She does get punished hard if you guess correctly though. Almost every recovery in the game that doesn't belong to Jiggs is heavily punishable in some way.

You could call Pikachu's recovery good I guess, but it's also far less risky to edgeguard him than it is to edgeguard Sheik given that Sheik is better at gimping. Just grabbing the ledge and throwing out a B-air is good, and usually won't get punished hard if it doesn't work, while it will really mess him up if it actually does hit him.

 

[j3ly]

way to rephrase what i just said in a post 3x as long and apply it generically

mario always has a mixup that will save you.. but you gotta DI the initial hit otherwise ur definatly doomed.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You can USUALLY land on stage with Mario.

If your opponent knows how to edgeguard Mario, you usually can't land on stage completely safely. Unless your opponent isn't in range to chase you down, Mario is pretty much has to be ready to take a hit for recovering.

His recovery is average. Not good.

 

[j3ly]

lol check how generic that is, you can take out 'mario' and replace so, so many chars in that sentence.

The is almost always a route that will make him survive. up to 3 fireballs cape di reverse cape bair double capes down b mixups upB angle, on/offstage/platform mindgame with upB.

what you seem to be missing, is that with great DI you can casually make it back to the stage without using upB. this gives u another layer of midgames ontop of those layers i just mentioned. air dodge too. there is almost always a route, unless you are sent simply out of mario's horizontal recovery range - vertically, he will always always make it back. horizontal is the problem.

therefore, by the exact logic you made a post with like what, 3 posts ago
mario has a good recovery

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sheik, Fox, and Peach actually will get back on stage completely free fairly consistently because they have options to recover that cannot be covered on reaction most of the time. You have to actually predict their recovery to punish it. How badly they get gimped is a different story, but actually punishing them in the first place is difficult.

Mario doesn't have the distance and mixup in his recovery to make the situation 50/50. He's GOING to get hit by someone who knows the matchup. Mario's recovery is NOT good, because you do not have to read it to punish it consistently. Sheik, Fox, and Peach have good recoveries. Jiggs has the one god tier recovery that virtually nobody can do anything about.

There are very few other recoveries that can be called good in that they will get back safely on a read. Pikachu (and Pichu) happens to have a recovery that can make it back safely on a read, though the actual risk for edgeguarding him is mostly pretty low compared to the reward. Link and Samus's recovery are good in most but not all matchups. Outside of that practically every character in the game is going to get hit for recovering as long as you don't mess up proper edgeguard routine. There are far worse recoveries than Mario's, but his recovery is definitely not good. Gimping him may require a read if he DIs well. Simply hitting Mario for recovering however is very easy, and he generally does not get back on stage for free unless his opponent either screws up completely, or just simply isn't in range to chase him down.

 

[StealthyGunnar]

Srry didnt read all of it:

the way i see it, u should mix up ur recovery a lot. it will get predictable fast

 

[A2ZOMG]

Trufax.

Just saying though, I'll do the craziest **** to make my recovery look good even when it isn't. I make a point of not letting my opponent do the same to me.

 

[StealthyGunnar]

Trufax.

Just saying though, I'll do the craziest **** to make my recovery look good even when it isn't. I make a point of not letting my opponent do the same to me.

i play my cousin who mostly mains link. some chars u have to be especially careful for. i know he'll always upB near the edge so i try to sweetspot every time.

again we gotta switch it up. whether it be downB stalling, upBing and landing behind them. w/e u gotta do. id suggest not recovering the same way more than 2x in a row tho. ur opponent will pick up on it

about ur opponent recovering: study the way he/she recovers. try out certain situations. try just standing near the edge and see how they recover. maybe try jumping out and double jumping right back on the stage. try to see if u can figure our how ur opponent will react in certain situations and punish them. i gotta work on this the most.

i often just throw out moves, but i gotta study and analyze more. im sure everybody could do this more too.

 

[AXE 09]

Just throwing in my opinion:

I personally think Pikachu vs Mario is 65:35 Mario.

 

[ChivalRuse]

So you would say it's easier or harder than Doc (or about the same)?

 

[AXE 09]

I think they're about the same. Doc might be slightly harder, but they both beat Pikachu using the same methods. Doc's Fair makes the matchup a bit tougher but imo it's not too different. I would probably put them both at 65:35.

 

[darkgirku]

hmmmmmm maybe I'll learn this matchup next time I go up against you axe lolll

*longs to play melee*

 

[M@1funk$hun]

Hey Axe, what are the things to look out for in this matchup as Mario?

this isn't much of a matchup we have a lot of experience in haha

 

[AXE 09]

All you really have to look out for is fake approaches, because that's really the only way Pikachu can land a hit on Mario lol. Pikachu really can't do anything but constantly bait, and hope Mario falls into them. That, and throw random attacks and hope you don't out prioritize them with your moves haha

 

[j3ly]

id think axe would hit a shiz load of nairs, dtilts, dthrow -> something and then camp for a usmash when we hit like 80% ant be that hard if ur a better player than ur opponent. pike can space our shield easily with late uair -> ftilt and some other stuff too but its harder

edit - lol, look its axe ask him

 

[M@1funk$hun]

Also once we get a hit it's pretty possible to combo pika to death

even with proper DI pika's fun to combo

IMO

 

[AXE 09]

Darn you Mario players lol. <3

 

[M@1funk$hun]

thanks for coming in here axe, and good stuff at P5, you're pika is always fun to watch =)

 

[AXE 09]

Thank you so much man!

Unfortunately no one's performances were rewarded financially though

But it was still worth it I had a ton of fun and I'm so glad people like you enjoy watching me play lol. I've worked really hard to get to a high level.

And to be honest I love Mario =D I actually use him from time to time

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ur Mario is silly AXE.

Thanks for the input!

 

[ChivalRuse]

id think axe would hit a shiz load of nairs, dtilts, dthrow -> something and then camp for a usmash when we hit like 80% ant be that hard if ur a better player than ur opponent. pike can space our shield easily with late uair -> ftilt and some other stuff too but its harder

D-tilt sucks because it can get CC'ed, and that means a grab/d-smash for Mario, neither of which is exciting for Pikachu.

Spacing uairs on Mario's shield is obviously possible. It's easy to space on Mario's shield period, with any character. The problem you run into is that Mario's f-smash will beat late uair everytime. And Mario's f-smash is pretty spammable, meaning you (as Pika) will have a hard time deterring him from throwing them out.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

D-tilt sucks because it can get CC'ed, and that means a grab/d-smash for Mario, neither of which is exciting for Pikachu.

Spacing uairs on Mario's shield is obviously possible. It's easy to space on Mario's shield period, with any character. The problem you run into is that Mario's f-smash will beat late uair everytime. And Mario's f-smash is pretty spammable, meaning you (as Pika) will have a hard time deterring him from throwing them out.

Dtilt can be CC'd, no denying that, but it's still one of pika's better spacing moves (it sucks compared to regular moves, but nonetheless pretty good for pika) so they can't really just throw that out the window. Dsmash is a more reliable option to CC it with because if spaced properly you can't grab it.

and even if you're in your shield, uair oos can be a good option

anyway, I'm doing the matchup guide for pika now, anything I should put in the DON'T section? I seem to be lacking in that area

 

[StealthyGunnar]

as long as u dont get naired we r ok. nair combo to death sucks. lucky we can combo pika to death lol. random uairs suck too. too much gimpage goin on

 

[ChivalRuse]

To beat Pikachu, you just throw priority at him.

And don't fall for his silly baits.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

Check the OP for the matchups I've completed so far

Any and all input is welcome, just don't be a ****

I'll get started on more characters in a few days