The Lucas General Discussion

[Noraa]

lol i shoulda picked ness instead of lucas.
i use mostly gw now though =/

 

[cloudenvy112]

lol i shoulda picked ness instead of lucas.
i use mostly gw now though =/

Both are good. I just think Lucas's options are more available and he can punish easier than Ness.

 

[prOAPC]

lucas doesn't suck, you just have to know how to use him

 

[rPSIvysaur]

MK isn't god, you just have to know how to suck with him

 

[cloudenvy112]

lucas doesn't suck, you just have to know how to use him

Thank you.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Why does Lucas suck though? I've seen plenty of good players that use him well. Give me some good reasons; i don't want to hear bad DI, bad recovery, or anything that any lightweight potentially has problems dealing with.

*sighh*

quick breakdown of general problems he has.

- lack of range: He has limited range. this lead to the majority of his approaches losing to a pivot grab.

- Good OoS options, bad traction + bad range: Yes he has uair/nair/dair OoS, and jab/ftilt, but... dude has no range. If he gets hit by a marth fair, then it's completely safe. He can even get hit by a sheik nair or Failco Dair. They're all safe. The only solution is to powersheild everything

- Grab: His grab sucks. Mad slow. Makes even more moves safe against him.

- Grab release: Free Damage/Kills

- Bad projectiles: PK fire < Powershield. PKT = no. PK Freeze is decent with Mindgames, but that's about it. Camping kinda fails with him.
Combine those five, and you get a bad char.

lucas doesn't suck, you just have to know how to use him

Ganon doesn't suck; you just have to know how to use him.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

MK isn't god, you just have to know how to suck with him

Ganon doesn't suck; you just have to know how to use him.

Dang, I think Pink Fresh just out grammared us

 

[cloudenvy112]

*sighh*

quick breakdown of general problems he has.

- lack of range: He has limited range. this lead to the majority of his approaches losing to a pivot grab.

- Good OoS options, bad traction + bad range: Yes he has uair/nair/dair OoS, and jab/ftilt, but... dude has no range. If he gets hit by a marth fair, then it's completely safe. He can even get hit by a sheik nair or Failco Dair. They're all safe. The only solution is to powersheild everything

- Grab: His grab sucks. Mad slow. Makes even more moves safe against him.

- Grab release: Free Damage/Kills

- Bad projectiles: PK fire < Powershield. PKT = no. PK Freeze is decent with Mindgames, but that's about it. Camping kinda fails with him.
Combine those five, and you get a bad char.


Ganon doesn't suck; you just have to know how to use him.

So then, who do you use since your so good? It depends on the player after all.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Dang, I think Pink Fresh just out grammared us

=P

I sowwie? ahaha

So then, who do you use since your so good? It depends on the player after all.

Lucas.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Yeah, we all use Lucas, but to be good with Lucas, you have to admit he sucks. Otherwise, you're going to fail when you don't realize his flaws.

Anyway, after seeing the d-tilt range on the hitbox pictures thread, who thinks they are going to incorporate it into their game more?

 

[Galeon]

Technically u shouldn't.

Dtilt's a weird move. Yea, the range is impressive and if it had the properties of most other moves, it'd be great. But the problem with it is that until about 100%+ at least, all of the hitboxes of the move are worthless except the super tip. As far as I know, only the super tip causes trips and it's at a 50% rate (tip being past the foot, meaning if you're hitting with the actual foot, it'll never trip). The problem is that if u hit with any other part of the move, u'll notice how bad the hitstun is. It's a move with really low knockback and possibly the worst growth out of any move in the game.

To put it into perspective, if you dtilt Snake at 0%, on hit, you're at -5 frames. I'm pretty sure I've brought this up before but just clarifying for people who don't know. That means if you actually hit Snake with dtilt and it doesn't trip, he gets a free ftilt on you. If the guy ur dtilting is spamming attack while you're hitting him (the type of people who jab back when you try to do jab mixups), you take it. I've dtilted a Snake and got up tilted in my lag. Doesn't have to be Snake though, everybody can hit Lucas back. If you can space it for that super tip though, it STILL comes down to luck. I dont understand why that move would have to be perfectly spaced to have a CHANCE not to suck. Doesn't Ness's natural combo and have a 50% chance to trip on all of the hitboxes? But we have the better ground game >_>.

At around 100%, i think, dtilt is still negative on hit but not enough that we take it to the face every time, uncontested. At around 200%, i think, our dtilt begins to combo into itself. Thats when it'll wall infinite.

To tell you the truth, I've been trying to use dtilt more at the right spacing and I've gotten a lot of trips with it, starting to have a feel for the range. I think its a useable move and under the right circumstances is actually pretty good. Landing a kill move can be tough sometimes, and dtilt trip does true combo to fsmash. The only bad thing is that you cant hit confirm the trip if you want to go for the fsmash (I know I've discussed this before) so you have to space it, believe that it tripped and swing.

Another cool thing is that since the ending lag is so short, if people do block it instead of just taking the hit, you can keep up the offense because your followups could stuff their oos options, so its an alternative to jab cancelling on block. Overall, I'd say its a move that has its places but shouldn't really be forced because of how it works. Adding it onto normal spacing can make it pretty nasty though.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Yeah, we all use Lucas, but to be good with Lucas, you have to admit he sucks. Otherwise, you're going to fail when you don't realize his flaws.

Anyway, after seeing the d-tilt range on the hitbox pictures thread, who thinks they are going to incorporate it into their game more?

This. Also, I've been using dtilt forever =/

Technically u shouldn't.

Dtilt's a weird move. Yea, the range is impressive and if it had the properties of most other moves, it'd be great. But the problem with it is that until about 100%+ at least, all of the hitboxes of the move are worthless except the super tip. As far as I know, only the super tip causes trips and it's at a 50% rate (tip being past the foot, meaning if you're hitting with the actual foot, it'll never trip). The problem is that if u hit with any other part of the move, u'll notice how bad the hitstun is. It's a move with really low knockback and possibly the worst growth out of any move in the game.

To put it into perspective, if you dtilt Snake at 0%, on hit, you're at -5 frames. I'm pretty sure I've brought this up before but just clarifying for people who don't know. That means if you actually hit Snake with dtilt and it doesn't trip, he gets a free ftilt on you. If the guy ur dtilting is spamming attack while you're hitting him (the type of people who jab back when you try to do jab mixups), you take it. I've dtilted a Snake and got up tilted in my lag. Doesn't have to be Snake though, everybody can hit Lucas back. If you can space it for that super tip though, it STILL comes down to luck. I dont understand why that move would have to be perfectly spaced to have a CHANCE not to suck. Doesn't Ness's natural combo and have a 50% chance to trip on all of the hitboxes? But we have the better ground game >_>.

At around 100%, i think, dtilt is still negative on hit but not enough that we take it to the face every time, uncontested. At around 200%, i think, our dtilt begins to combo into itself. Thats when it'll wall infinite.

To tell you the truth, I've been trying to use dtilt more at the right spacing and I've gotten a lot of trips with it, starting to have a feel for the range. I think its a useable move and under the right circumstances is actually pretty good. Landing a kill move can be tough sometimes, and dtilt trip does true combo to fsmash. The only bad thing is that you cant hit confirm the trip if you want to go for the fsmash (I know I've discussed this before) so you have to space it, believe that it tripped and swing.

Another cool thing is that since the ending lag is so short, if people do block it instead of just taking the hit, you can keep up the offense because your followups could stuff their oos options, so its an alternative to jab cancelling on block. Overall, I'd say its a move that has its places but shouldn't really be forced because of how it works. Adding it onto normal spacing can make it pretty nasty though.

Once you get a feel for the spacing, then you'll start comboing into trips into more ****.

It's also extremely safe on shield.

REALLY bad otherwise

 

[Chuee]

Dtilt has about as much stun as Samus' jab. It's a good shield pressure move though.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Well, at least we know exactly where tipper range is though XD...

Anyway, it's still a decent shield poke.

 

[cloudenvy112]

Well, at least we know exactly where tipper range is though XD...

Anyway, it's still a decent shield poke.

I found myself thinking about your hitbox pictures as we brawled saying, "Ok, I have this much room to make this move." Thanks for the pictures. I have to think about spacing now.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

lol, spacing on wi-fi barely exists

 

[prOAPC]

This. Also, I've been using dtilt forever =/

Once you get a feel for the spacing, then you'll start comboing into trips into more ****.

It's also extremely safe on shield.

REALLY bad otherwise

everything he said

 

[~Nasty~]

So i tried setting Z to special... It works exactly like B-sticking. I would run forward, SH with X, hit Z while almost at the same time as hitting back on the Cstick and continue holding the joy stick forward. Lucas will move backwards while shooting PKF. It also works the same for wavezapping. However, the timing seems a little different.. or maybe i'm just not used to it.

Lastly, having Z set to special will take some time getting used to. I would try to tether recover to the ledge and accidentally do PK freeze. lol. I would also mess up my jab cancel combos (specifically jab-jab-grab). SO remember to hit your ACTUAL grab button when using tether recovery or mixing up jab combos. (in my case it's Y).

Is this all worth it? What do u guys think?

/rant

 

[rPSIvysaur]

What happens when you set it to L/R?

I'm just too used to B-sticking to get used to that.

 

[Galeon]

My Z was already set to jump for zap jumping so it wasnt a big change for me. But when u said wavezap, were you talking about the wavebounce zap jump? Cause I definitely can't do that as is. Cant even imagine being able to cover those buttons without clawing the controller awkwardly. X to jump, Z and C-stick for wavebounce effect all back to back doesnt seem too possible.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Galeon just made my mind explode with Wavezapping craziness...

 

[Galeon]

Just had it click. Setting L to jump would let my right hand be able to use Z and the c-stick while jumping with my left hand. Now I just gotta learn the timing

edit: omg it works. we can wavebounce zap jump with the c-stick. i FINALLY get my c-stick back.

 

[Chuee]

edit: omg it works. we can wavebounce zap jump with the c-stick. i FINALLY get my c-stick back.

"Welcome back Galeon!"
-Cstick

 

[~Nasty~]

@ Galeon, yeah i meant Wavebounce zap jump. lol, sry about that. XD

Yeah using L to jump sets up your right hand to be able to press Z and C-stick a little easier. It's just the timing is a little awkward at first. I'm kinda liking this control scheme

 

[prOAPC]

wavezap = wavebounce zap jump

i'm too lazy to learn the timing again for Lucas ATs, and i don't even have the time or the Wii to practice it, but those retreating fairs and the air control is priceless, so i'll give it a try
can you still use full hop magnet pull?

 

[prOAPC]

double post!
so i tried that new way to wavebounce, and it worked I'm not sure yet how's the timing, but it is like you have to press the button and c-stick at the same time, but with just a few hours of training i can master it. The problem would be getting used to it, like using c-stick for both specials and attacks, it's a little confusing.

the times i messed up, it wasn't that bad, sometimes i did a sh bair moving foward (which worked because Lucas moves pretty far, almost unpunishable) , some other times it was a normal sh pk fire

now i have to learn AGAIN other Lucas ATs, like wavezap and fh magnet pull, both of them need 4 control inputs, jump+special+foward+c-stick backwards, my head is going to explode

thank you Nasty, finally i can do those retreating fairs that i love so much and have better SDI

*looks for a wii to practice alone*

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Hmm... maybe I should take the time to learn this... It certainly will take alot of time to get used to though, what do you guys think?

 

[prOAPC]

Hmm... maybe I should take the time to learn this... It certainly will take alot of time to get used to though, what do you guys think?

i'd say it takes some time, but it's something you can practice in training mode, so it shouldn't be that hard

Lastly, having Z set to special will take some time getting used to. I would try to tether recover to the ledge and accidentally do PK freeze. lol. I would also mess up my jab cancel combos (specifically jab-jab-grab). SO remember to hit your ACTUAL grab button when using tether recovery or mixing up jab combos. (in my case it's Y).

Is this all worth it? What do u guys think?

/rant

use a classic control, it has 4 trigger buttons :D

 

[rPSIvysaur]

That Dustersliding looks very useful... it looks like while your tethering to the ledge, you land on the ground and since your z-airing you don't really have landing lag so you can buffer in moves. Or at least that's what it looks like.

 

[~Nasty~]

the times i messed up, it wasn't that bad, sometimes i did a sh bair moving foward (which worked because Lucas moves pretty far, almost unpunishable) , some other times it was a normal sh pk fire

now i have to learn AGAIN other Lucas ATs, like wavezap and fh magnet pull, both of them need 4 control inputs, jump+special+foward+c-stick backwards, my head is going to explode

thank you Nasty, finally i can do those retreating fairs that i love so much and have better SDI

lol, you're welcome APC... however, i can not take all the credit. Thank Galeon for bringing up the b button + c-stick. All i did was apply it to my control scheme and tell u guys the best possible way to be able to perform these AT's with this new set-up and do a few tests with it.

and yeah some of the time when i messed up i did the same things you did. Can u explain exactly what Wavezap is (i feel like i'm confused on it now. lol) and also what FH magnet pull is used for (and how it's performed). I wanna know if what i do is what you're talking about and i just never really knew the correct names for it.

use a classic control, it has 4 trigger buttons :D

lol, i thought about it.. but i'll just stick to what i know and continue to use the GC controller.


Lastly, guys, what should we call this control set-up? i feel like it needs it's own special name bc it's not b-sticking and it's kinda like c-sticking but with better b-sticking qualities. hmmm.. /puts on thinking cap.. any ideas?

 

[prOAPC]

CB-Sticking! XD like ComboBreak-Sticking!
or, A-stick!
don't know, i'm bad with names

wavezap = wavebounced zap jump

full hop magnet pull = pk fire+psi magnet in only one jump. Press jump and b-stick at the same time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HJ0fRq3G_o

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Z-Sticking...

 

[HailCrest]

Personally I use the classic controller and I've always set L to shield, ZL to jump, ZR to Grab and R to special. The reason R is special is because before I bought the classic controller I used the Wiichuk configuration. I'm already pretty used to using R for PK thunder and zap jumping, and personally I NEVER use ZR. The new controls that allow "wavesmashing" (for lack of a better word) for Lucas, well as Galeon said they're kind of hit and miss. I bair (from flicking the c-stick too fast), and use standard non-wavebounced PKF (flick the right stick too slow) way too much. Also, because of the awkward position of the right stick relative to the hand, doing WBPKF to the right is more difficult when shooting WBPKFs to the left because when you're shooting to the right, the c-stick goes left and that feels kind of awkward. Try it out on a GC, I think you'd get the same feeling.

But because I've never played Melee, the idea of using c-stick for aerial attacks is completely alien to me. I use direction + A for everything, including DI. But this new configuration allows prospects such as convenient jab-cancelled smashes, glide tossing (my friend's a Diddy player), and most importantly SDI with the c-stick which are too lucrative to just forgo, so I'm going to try my best to learn it even though it feels way, way more instinctive to stick with B-sticking.

Edit: As for names, I dunno. Wavesmashing? Smashbouncing? Galeonsticking? Don't call it CB-sticking, CB is kind of a vulgarity LOL

 

[~Nasty~]

CB-Sticking! XD like ComboBreak-Sticking!
or, A-stick!
don't know, i'm bad with names

wavezap = wavebounced zap jump

full hop magnet pull = pk fire+psi magnet in only one jump. Press jump and b-stick at the same time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HJ0fRq3G_o

Thanks APC! I was actually able to do those things with C-sticking. It's just really complicated to do.. and even more complicated to try and explain how to do it. lol.

Z-Sticking...

What's funny is that i was just describing this whole new technique to my friend like 10 mins ago and out of nowhere i was like "Z-sticking!" Haha, not very original on our part rPSI but i like it nonetheless.

 

[lil cj]

That Dustersliding looks very useful... it looks like while your tethering to the ledge, you land on the ground and since your z-airing you don't really have landing lag so you can buffer in moves. Or at least that's what it looks like.

I figured what Dustersliding is:
Ok pretty much you hang on the ledge and you drop, then you do a zair along the side of the stage really fast and land in front of the lip of the stage so you wont tether the stage, if you do it right that when you zair onto the stage you'll land on the stage without lag which enables you to input a buffered tilt or mindgame a smash attack....this is very useful and could possibly help out Lucas' game, well his ledge that is lol.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

What's funny is that i was just describing this whole new technique to my friend like 10 mins ago and out of nowhere i was like "Z-sticking!" Haha, not very original on our part rPSI but i like it nonetheless.

Since when has the Lucas boards been original?

Item Zapjump
Wavezap
SHWBPKF
Full Hop Wavebounce
Magnetdashing

@Lil CJ

Have you been able to replicate it?

If so what's the button input / timing / difficulty?

 

[Galeon]

Z-Sticking...

What's funny is that i was just describing this whole new technique to my friend like 10 mins ago and out of nowhere i was like "Z-sticking!" Haha, not very original on our part rPSI but i like it nonetheless.

Well there's 2 problems. It's a c-stick and the name z-sticking is already taken. The DDD's found out a long while ago that if you set your c-stick to grab that you can do the infinite chaingrabs unbelieeeevably easy.

I think the name (if it needs a name) should infer that your Z is being used for Specials so its easily identifiable.

And for all those that still dont understand how dustersliding works, it's pretty simple and lil cj gave a pretty decent explanation. Grab the ledge, drop down, double jump, tether. When its done perfectly, you'll slide onto the stage, hence the name. I've tried it with a bunch of different button configs and in the end, it just comes down to what you're comfortable doing. The timing isnt something easily described, you're just tethering as you're about to go over the stage.

As for the difficulty, about as hard as doing a zap jump since im pretty sure it's also a 1-frame room of error. If you tether too late, you'll either do a high rope snake ledge grab or overshoot the ledge doing a double jump zair. If your jump didnt register, you'll fall doing a zair, which depending on how bad you messed up, could put you in a terrible situation. Practice makes perfect, go nuts.

 

[lil cj]

Since when has the Lucas boards been original?

Item Zapjump
Wavezap
SHWBPKF
Full Hop Wavebounce
Magnetdashing

@Lil CJ

Have you been able to replicate it?

If so what's the button input / timing / difficulty?

Ive done it about 3 times...but it still wasnt as fast as the one is the video for some reason

Well there's 2 problems. It's a c-stick and the name z-sticking is already taken. The DDD's found out a long while ago that if you set your c-stick to grab that you can do the infinite chaingrabs unbelieeeevably easy.

I think the name (if it needs a name) should infer that your Z is being used for Specials so its easily identifiable.

And for all those that still dont understand how dustersliding works, it's pretty simple and lil cj gave a pretty decent explanation. Grab the ledge, drop down, double jump, tether. When its done perfectly, you'll slide onto the stage, hence the name. I've tried it with a bunch of different button configs and in the end, it just comes down to what you're comfortable doing. The timing isnt something easily described, you're just tethering as you're about to go over the stage.

As for the difficulty, about as hard as doing a zap jump since im pretty sure it's also a 1-frame room of error. If you tether too late, you'll either do a high rope snake ledge grab or overshoot the ledge doing a double jump zair. If your jump didnt register, you'll fall doing a zair, which depending on how bad you messed up, could put you in a terrible situation. Practice makes perfect, go nuts.

Thanks for the explanation for this epic AT Galeon!
You said it better than me lol

 

[prOAPC]

what about Zpecials!

 

[rPSIvysaur]

How do you say that? I think maybe Z-bouncing?

Anyway, so today I went to my school's little scrub thing and we ended up doing FFA's (I won all of them) and so I ended up on Picto and D-tilt locked one of them across the entire stage... I lol'd