The Louisiana Thread: Flarefox Forever - We are alive.

[Sudai]

Sorry Vaughn, but counter picking does require at least a bit of skill. The fact that you -can't- counterpick MK just reduces the skill level. You tell me what's harder: Being amazing with one character or Being almost as amazing with 4 characters? I'd say being almost amazing with 4 is a -lot- more skillful than being amazing with one.

I'm not here to argue banning MK overall. If anyone misinterpreted my last post, I'm arguing that we shouldn't be banning him at the NOLA monthlies yet because Louisiana has very little clout in the Smash World as it stands.

 

[-Ran]

I'd hate for this thread to be nothing but talk about the Meta Knight ban in the New Orleans tournament. It makes everything kinda boring to see it everywhere. The ban isn't going to change. If the tournament is successful, then great. If not? Then my principles are wrong. I feel, and believe that Meta knight needs to be banned. Due to this, and all the reasons that I have stated in every other post on the subject, I have no choice but to ban him during the tournament that I'm hosting.

It would make every conversation and thought I've made on the subject worthless if I didn't take action when I had the chance. If these actions are wrong, then as a man I will live with the consequences. Let me reiterate, as an individual, I could not stand idle. This had nothing to do with Lee, and everything to do with principle. The tournament could only have ten people, and I'd still do the ban.

To those that feel I'm doing this to shaft Lee: You don't know anything; Lee is like a brother to me.

 

[Mocha19]

Sorry Vaughn, but counter picking does require at least a bit of skill. The fact that you -can't- counterpick MK just reduces the skill level. You tell me what's harder: Being amazing with one character or Being almost as amazing with 4 characters? I'd say being almost amazing with 4 is a -lot- more skillful than being amazing with one.

That could actually be answered either way. What if that one character was your low tier character like that Yoshi player you were talking about. Maybe he'll eventually find ways to beat Metaknight. Skill is not reflected by the number of characters that you may play, but what your mindset is with your character.

And thank you, Gary, but I have already seen it before. I love it, though. =]

 

[jiovanni007]

The following characters are all near perfect in their respective games:

Ken in Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike
Akuma in Street Fighter Alpha 3
Toki in Hokuto no Ken
Old Sagat in Super Street Fighter II Turbo

The argument at hand is banning characters in a game that's only 7 months old. There were bits of info about 3rd Strike that weren't discovered until 2004. They made some characters much more playable.

My question is:

Why do you want to ban a character from such a relatively young game despite the fact that we're still learning about the game?

What are still learning about the game? Enlighten me please for I am clearly ignorant.

See.. You did it again.. As long as this argument comes into play, I will treat it as a john. Just because a counter has not been discovered yet does not make him invincible and it means even less that he should be banned.

And while Metaknight might be making people quit smash, banning him will probably end up doing the same. A lot of people like smash FOR Metaknight. People like me quit because of the community, not particularly Metaknight.

Well, Mew and Mewtwo were banned from standard play in pokemon RBY very quickly. Mewtwo could be countered with a lot of effort, but was still banned nonetheless. Mew had no counters since its movepool was so diverese and was only weak to bug type. Was the Pokemon RBY community johning when they banned Mew and Mewtwo?

 

[Mocha19]

So why do you feel that Metaknight should be banned, Ran?

 

[Mocha19]

Was the Pokemon RBY community johning when they banned Mew and Mewtwo?

Maybe.. I've seen a few tourneys where Mewtwo was allowed with the newer generation.

 

[Sudai]

That could actually be answered either way. What if that one character was your low tier character like that Yoshi player you were talking about. Maybe he'll eventually find ways to beat Metaknight. Skill is not reflected by the number of characters that you may play, but what your mindset is with your character.

I'm talking as a linear rating. Skill 10 of 10 with one, or skill 9 of 10 with 4. I still say 9 of 10 with 4 is a much better option..unless you're playing against MK.

 

[BravoNavo]

What are still learning about the game? Enlighten me please for I am clearly ignorant.

So you're saying there's nothing else to learn about Brawl? It's over and done?

 

[-Ran]

So why do you feel that Metaknight should be banned, Ran?

I'll respond after I'm back from work at 7:30. On my lunch break, and I don't have time to write a post that won't be refuted.

 

[Mocha19]

I'm talking as a linear rating. Skill 10 of 10 with one, or skill 9 of 10 with 4. I still say 9 of 10 with 4 is a much better option..unless you're playing against MK.

You could overachieve that level with one character. You could go up to 12 of 10 if you so pleased. You don't need a multiple amount of characters. Kyle was awesome in Melee tourneys with only Marth.

 

[jiovanni007]

Maybe.. I've seen a few tourneys where Mewtwo was allowed with the newer generation.

those were uber tournaments. The uber tier is a ban tier from the standard tier, but with recent generations, there are actually enough in the uber tier for it to actually have a metagame. This is opposed to RBY where only Mew and Mewtwo were in the uber tier. If it wasn't an uber tournament then it wasn't hosted by someone that is active in the community. Also you've said nothing about my saying that MK has massive tournament results.

 

[vegta12]

I think MK has more ublockables than Eddie does haha

I hate the idea of banning characters though. I say give it more time.

 

[Le_THieN]

The tournament could only have ten people, and I'd still do the ban.

To those that feel I'm doing this to shaft Lee: You don't know anything; Lee is like a brother to me.

I'm well aware that this decision has nothing to do with "punishing" Lee for maining Meta Knight; in fact, there's nothing in the original premise of my argument that remotely approaches this notion. The issue here is that, if my understanding of your state character demographics are correct, Louisiana doesn't seem to even present itself as a mere microcosm of the Brawl scene on a national magnitude (which, in a nutshell, is a scene overrun by all sorts of Meta Knight players). The fact that there's only one true MK main in the entire state of LA period means that it's not even an accurate random sampling of the rest of the country; this fact alone casts a questionable light on whether or not Louisiana is the appropriate stage to conduct such an experimental ban.

And I understand that you may be a man of principle, but a hypothetical 10-handed tournament is quite literally the worst type of scenario to be testing this ban in. The pending results from this kind field would most certainly not tell you much of anything about what needs to be done with Meta Knight as a character (even if there was one MK main or nine MK mains). I value the fact that you're very determined to stand by your decision, but if your intent to ban MK in your upcoming tournament is based solely on personal principle as opposed to fielding the most accurate experimental results possible in order to move the "ban/do not ban MK" discussion forward, then I think it's worth saying that you really need to consider heavily reevaluating your intentions.

 

[Testament27]

im going to say something we can all agree on, something so true it can't possibly be refuted:




SAKURAI is a c-u-n-t muscle.

that is all.

edit: it is true, we (LA) dont really have a reason for banning mk. it would only hurt our best player (LEE). If ran however, wants to make a statement/be the first in the community to do so, i would not dare argue.

 

[jiovanni007]

im going to say something we can all agree on, something so true it can't possibly be refuted:




SAKURAI is a c-u-n-t muscle.

that is all.

edit: it is true, we (LA) dont really have a reason for banning mk. it would only hurt our best player (LEE). If ran however, wants to make a statement/be the first in the community to do so, i would not dare argue.

true, do we have that nihongo midterm today or wednesday?

 

[PK Thunder]

Let's just all use Captain Falcon.

 

[Sudai]

-EET/eric - not sudai:


Yeah it wouldnt matter much to LA, but considering ran just got back from HOBO where 8 of top 12 were mk or something ******** -- you can obviously see why that would be frustrating for other mains. but fortunately, la has a pretty diverse character lineup, so I'm satisfied either way about MK in or not for now...

-eet


and that picture is funny...

 

[Mocha19]

those were uber tournaments. The uber tier is a ban tier from the standard tier, but with recent generations, there are actually enough in the uber tier for it to actually have a metagame. This is opposed to RBY where only Mew and Mewtwo were in the uber tier. If it wasn't an uber tournament then it wasn't hosted by someone that is active in the community. Also you've said nothing about my saying that MK has massive tournament results.

Cuz it doesn't matter. The top 4 in Melee mostly have the top spots. Most likely to Marth if there had to be one due to players like Ken and M2K because Marth is their best characters. If Metaknight is the top, then he's up there because the best players are using him because they are just good.

 

[Mocha19]

And I don't like that comic.. =[

Poor Zelda.. *cries*

 

[BravoNavo]

 

[jiovanni007]

Cuz it doesn't matter. The top 4 in Melee mostly have the top spots. Most likely to Marth if there had to be one due to players like Ken and M2K because Marth is their best characters. If Metaknight is the top, then he's up there because the best players are using him because they are just good.

This isn't a top 4, this is a top 1 that continues to rack up tournament placings at a rate much faster than everyone below him.

 

[Mocha19]

This isn't a top 4, this is a top 1 that continues to rack up tournament placings at a rate much faster than everyone below him.

It still doesn't matter. If we did a ban based off of tournament rankings, then the Top 4 from Melee would've been banned because they soared over the rest of the cast. It should be based more off of the mechanics of the character and the game that should merit a ban.

 

[jiovanni007]

It still doesn't matter. If we did a ban based off of tournament rankings, then the Top 4 from Melee would've been banned because they soared over the rest of the cast. It should be based more off of the mechanics of the character and the game that should merit a ban.

Well then we should no longer be arguing since both of our arguments are based on our own personal opinions.

Also Bomberman blast is on wiiware, get it plz

 

[Sachi]

no offense to pierre, ricky b, or sachi, but without a detailed view of smash, particularly brawl, i dont think their opinion is relevant at all.

-TAYLOR

... You're telling me not to be offended when you call me an idiot? That's what you're saying, essentially.

No, I don't have a lot of experience playing the game, and I haven't devoted my life to Melee before this... that does *not* mean that my opinion should not matter. The only example that I can accurately make ( with my own gaming experiences ) is this : Meta Knight is to Brawl as Assassin Cross is to Ragnarok Online - Assassin Cross is overpowered and you can *not* beat even an okay one in 1 v 1 unless you are godly with your character. Assassin Cross vs Assassin Cross = stalemate, unless one is actually good at their character.

Lee is great at MK, I can see it and so can a lot of other people. He actually has skill in using MK, and that sets him apart from nearly all other MK players in the country. I watched Ran while he randomed/picked MK to do friendly matches with his friends, and even if they play their hardest, its still **** close. He admittedly doesn't know much about MK, which IMO makes MK a cheap win for anyone with an iota of skill in the game in general.

Oh yeah.. And johning.. That's also what this game has evolved into. Sorry I just remembered it.

I think its time you stopped *****ing. You cause more drama than a pregnant teenager on a soap opera.

 

[Mocha19]

Ehh.. I could respond, but I'm tired..

I'll just say that if this indeed carries over, then I'm pretty sure my smash career will indeed come to an end.

 

[Sachi]

Ehh.. I could respond, but I'm tired..

I'll just say that if this indeed carries over, then I'm pretty sure my smash career will indeed come to an end.

Good, I don't want to read any more from you. If you wanna quit, then do it and don't sit here *****ing about the game every ****ing day.

 

[Sudai]

I'll just say that if this indeed carries over, then I'm pretty sure my smash career will indeed come to an end.

Didn't it already? Friendlies don't count as part of a career, imo.

... You're telling me not to be offended when you call me an idiot? That's what you're saying, essentially.

He did not call you an idiot. He said you do not have a deep enough understanding of the game to be able to provide input on the current topic at hand. There's a -huge- difference.


-Sudai

 

[Deleted member]

thank you sudai. that is exactly what i was going to say.
when i met Kyle, you could tell he was incredibly intelligent, but at the begginning of his melee career, would i have valued his opinion on game topics? no.

i would rather not hear any more comparisons to MK and the top 4 characters in melee. it's a completely different scenario. i brought up the fact earlier that if 3 of the 4 didnt exist would the other one be banned and i think that is much more correct, but with a top group like that where they all have equal or slight advantages over one another, there's no reason to compare mk to the banning of any of them. also, it's not only marth that wins tourneys. recently pc's fox is unstoppable where he goes.

sara you're taking this thing way too personally and insulting vaughn because he doesnt agree with you. please chill out.

i dont have anything else to say about mk but i am pretty disturbed by the dictator approach to running this tourney. no vote, not taking most of la's opinions into account and basically just being like
"my tourney, he banned."

i know you have reasons for your decision but all in all, you are making it by yourself.
i stand by my opinion of a vote at signups.

funny thing is if mk does get banned officially i might start playing again because my chances of winning money go skyrocketing. i mean, im still going to lose but mk was the only char i struggled with (aside from a player's own skill)

it's tomorrow and i still dont think he should be banned (yet).

 

[Cyphus]

if anyone doesn't like MK banned they dont have to attend. that goes for anyone stubborn about only playing MK anyway. Lee is still likely to win anyway, and if he doesn't...who cares, his victory is about as robbed as mine is when he uses MK, no offense.

so i say lets enjoy this MK banned tourney, dont like it- dont come. but we'll never know how people will respond until its happened. I respect Ran for having the balls to do it.

 

[Sachi]

if anyone doesn't like MK banned they dont have to attend. that goes for anyone stubborn about only playing MK anyway. Lee is still likely to win anyway, and if he doesn't...who cares, his victory is about as robbed as mine is when he uses MK, no offense.

so i say lets enjoy this MK banned tourney, dont like it- dont come. but we'll never know how people will respond until its happened. I respect Ran for having the balls to do it.

ilu Cyphus <3


Sorry to everyone else. PMS > me

 

[Sudai]

Sorry to everyone else. PMS > me

No johns ~

 

[Sachi]

No johns ~

I'm pretty sure you wanna take that back before I bite.

 

[Cyphus]

LA smash is too good

 

[Smooth Criminal]

>__>

I hope LA doesn't john when they're trounced by a Metaknight in an OoS tourney.

Smooth Criminal

 

[sHy)(gUy]

alright lets say we had a larger number of metaknight players, then u ban him(this would screw over alot of people).... y not ban snake whos the second best character in the game?...uh oh there goes about 5-10 people that play snake in LA...

is metaknight good enough yet to where he cant be beaten? no
If metaknight is banned the same thing could happen to snake becoming too good...then do u ban him?

remember when snake was suppose to be unbeatable and the best character...then the metagame changed and metaknight became the best... whos to say the metagame wont change again?

 

[Sudai]

I'm pretty sure you wanna take that back before I bite.

Hah. You must not know me.

 

[jiovanni007]

alright lets say we had a larger number of metaknight players, then u ban him(this would screw over alot of people).... y not ban snake whos the second best character in the game?...uh oh there goes about 5-10 people that play snake in LA...

is metaknight good enough yet to where he cant be beaten? no
If metaknight is banned the same thing could happen to snake becoming too good...then do u ban him?

remember when snake was suppose to be unbeatable and the best character...then the metagame changed and metaknight became the best... whos to say the metagame wont change again?

you should just read that huge argument that happened for the past 2-3 pages. Also "slippery slope" is an informal fallacy in reference to the possibility of Snake becoming too good.

Also random fact, google "slippery slope fallacy" and what do you get as the number one return?
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html

That domain name looks eerily familiar...

 

[BravoNavo]

you should just read that huge argument that happened for the past 2-3 pages. Also "slippery slope" is an informal fallacy in reference to the possibility of Snake becoming too good.

Also random fact, google "slippery slope fallacy" and what do you get as the number one return?
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html

That domain name looks eerily familiar...

Wow. That domain has the same letters as a member here. Except not in the right order.

Ad Hominem is another fallacy, dude.

You never answered my previous question either.

 

[jiovanni007]

Wow. That domain has the same letters as a member here. Except not in the right order.

Ad Hominem is another fallacy, dude.

You never answered my previous question either.

oh all I say was that random Goldeneye box cover, refresh my memory. Yeah ad hominem is a logical fallacy, but who was making fun of people?

 

[BravoNavo]

oh all I say was that random Goldeneye box cover, refresh my memory. Yeah ad hominem is a logical fallacy, but who was making fun of people?

QUESTION: So you're saying there's nothing else to learn about Brawl? It's over and done?