The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (USE SPOILER TAGS)

[Zink]

Daruna is doubtful, as he was from Oot and old then. Although, he is a sage, and all, so maybe he can come back? Anyway, why would Link fight Daruna? Maybe there are different factions of Gorons?
Gorons have lived in different places each game. Oot: Death Mountain. MM: Snowhead. Are they that variable? Maybe their living area determines their personality. Snowhead was cold and DM was hot. Is this significant?

 

[Mic_128]

Snowhead was cold and DM was hot. Is this significant?

Nope. Snowhead was cold because it was a prolonged winter caused by Majoras Mask. After you beat the masked guardian, Snowhead was a nice warm, sunny place.

 

[Deo_Smash]

I know it's doubtful but I did read somewhere that the horse is Epona. So there is a chance that goron could've been Daruna. The main thing I can remember is that it had a mane like Darunas. If I could find a picture to compare the two I would if I could but I can't so I won't.

 

[xianfeng]

well i am pretty sure that if i don't get to play this game soon i will kill myself because i can't stand waiting much longer.

is that a promise or a threat j/k




anyway I think he has to fight the goron because of one of these reasons

a) the goron is possesed
b) the goron is evil
c) to prove he is link
d) to gain respect from the goron village

and about him being Darunia because he is the fire sage I think that is very likely and about him being his son that is also likely because his son was introduced in OoT

 

[Deo_Smash]

Zoras will most like be in this too won't they? I was qiute surprised when I played Ocarina of Time to find them to be GOOD guys. They've always were bad in the earlier zelda games. could this be a turning point for them or maybe theres two races of Zoras, one with the Hyrule order and on against. Who knows? Oh wait...Nintendo does. Dammit!

 

[Destiny Smasher]

To an earlier comment: how could Four Swords be cel-shaded when it was 2D using sprites?

Anyway, someone also mentioned how WW had more character than an Zelda before it. Amen to that, brother. That's precisely what drew me in, and it's one of the main factors that has me excited about this one, because not only does this one seem to have better animation, better details, and MORE character, it's also in a style that just gels perfectly with Zelda.

And yea, Kingdom Hearts 2 is gonna rule., Every little bit I see of that game gets me all the more excited. One thing I love is how it must be for the Japanese--all of these weird, foreign characters, and all.
But it's great to see that the Disney characters are still faithful to themselves in the Japanese version, too.
I need to play through Chain of Memories again before I get that game...

And I was planning on playing through OoT before TP comes out, but ya know, I think I may just not bother. Here's hoping TP comes out in April/May.

 

[The rAt]

You know,
I always feel a bit off, being one of the few people here who despised Wind Waker by comparison to other Zelda games. I mean, you are right that Link's face had quite a bit more character, but I always hated his expressions. They were so goofy looking. I mean, Link has always been a character I've taken very seriously, and I just couldn't take Wind Waker Link serious, especially when he is flying through the air freaking out because his butt is on fire. I mean, the plain fact of the matter is that in Wind Waker, Link is just some little kid playing hero. Sure he grows up, he gets the triforce of courage, he fights Ganon, but in the end, he's still a little kid playing hero, and in my oppinion the look of him made it hard to take seriously any change in the character. All of this to say one thing: I agree that Link's facial expressions should be variable like they were in Wind Waker, and I will enjoy them all the more because they will not be on the front of a big giant marshmallow head.

Someone commented earlier that the horse is Epona. Yes it is Epona, in the same way the guy in green is Link. That is, I find it highly unlikely that this Epona is OoT Epona in the same way I find it unlikely that this Link is OoT Link. Link is the LoZ name for a hero character. Epona is the LoZ name for a horse character. I think trying to make a connection between the two horses is reading into it a bit much.

On the subject of the Zoras, I thought I remembered hearing something awhile back about the Zoras becoming very reclusive after a certain point, and attacking anyone who bothered them. Hence in chronologically later games such as LoZ, perhaps the Zoras are a separate faction from those loyal to Ganon, and are simply attacking anything that gets too close? Who knows, but I believe the King Zora or whatever his name was that you encounter in LttP should factor into this debate...

B-da-b-da-b-dat's all folks!

Andy

 

[Zink]

In Link's Awakening, you could find a Zora who did not attack you, and who just wanted to be left alone. And I think he gives you some item, it's been a while since I played LA.

 

[blaksheap82]

I didn't remember any Zoras attacking me, but I havent' played most of the old school Zelda games. I know they were fairly friendly in Oracle of Time/Seasons. Actually I thought I heard something about the Zoras not being in TP, but I'll have to dig that up to verify that. Also, something about the boxing match with the Goron gave me the impression that it wasn't a very grave part of the game, but maybe just something like gaining passage, easily related to gaining their respect.

Destiny Smasher, I wasn't aware cel-shading was used only on 3-D animation. FS just had very similar animation to WW, some of it practically identical, so I guess I just assumed it was cel-shaded.

 

[Bedi Vegeta]

Destiny Smasher, I wasn't aware cel-shading was used only on 3-D animation. FS just had very similar animation to WW, some of it practically identical, so I guess I just assumed it was cel-shaded.

Cel-shading is actually originally just the term used for a type of colouring/shading for 2d drawings and stuff. It is basically where solid colours are used to depict shading. It is almost always used in 2d animated cartoons and stuff, simply because it is much easier to animate than a painted look. In more recent times, the 3D world found a way to emulate this style, such as in WW, and it seemed to be such an unusual thing that most people today only think it applies to 3D.

Geez louise, I'm just full of useless information lately...

 

[Destiny Smasher]

Um...FS couldn't have had similar animation, realy, because one was 3D, and one was 2D. But yes, it was the same style, and DID use some cel-shaded effects, now that I think about it. The smoke and fire, etc., was from Wind Waker.

My bad on confusing cel-shaded with only 3D. The style COULD be the same...
But I still don't think the sprites in FS were cel-shaded, because they were a combo of Minish Cap and Link to the Past, which weren't cel-shaded, I don't think.

I didn't like Wind Waker because I thought it's visual style was cool. I liked Wind Waker because a.) I spent more time playing it than Ocarine of Time because it was still good Zelda-ness, and b.) it was the Zelda game that really defined what Link was all about to me: courage.

I'm sorry, but the Link in Wind Waker simply portrayed courage better than Ocarina of Time's Link. OoT was all, "strong-silent-type" and big, and buff, and all that.

WW Link was small, puny, and scared. That's what courage is all about--you're afraid, but you do still act despite that fear. Link was afraid and knew how insignificant he was, but he cared about his sister so much that he still braved all of the dangers to save her. That's courage.

Being told, "You must save the world," and just going off to do it without so much as a whimper doesn't quite qualify. Though I'm sure the tale could be better told with the technology we have, but I never really thought of Link as truly courageous until Wind Waker came about. I certainly hope thyat Twilight Princess, with its darker mood, will still show us a reluctant, axious Link afraid of the dangers ahead of him, but still willing to fight against them. That's courage.

 

[Zink]

I think Oot Link was like that mostly because they didn't have the technology for more emotions. I mean, you can easily tell what WW Link is thinking, but Oot Link had about 3 expressions... and a pointy nose. He seemed kind of incidental to me.

 

[smilingmadman]

The rAt, You're just like my long-lost clone same-person-as-me.

You know, I always feel a bit off, being one of the few people here who despised Wind Waker by comparison to other Zelda games. I mean, you are right that Link's face had quite a bit more character, but I always hated his expressions. They were so goofy looking. I mean, Link has always been a character I've taken very seriously, and I just couldn't take Wind Waker Link serious, especially when he is flying through the air freaking out because his butt is on fire.

You had me at "Hello." I had mixed emotions about WW's cartoonish look, but from the get-go I was excited to play this new Zelda with the crazy-cool visual style. But when the little jack@$$ flies around with a flaming toosh and yells "ah-tah-tah" slipping and falling on his face on ice, I can't help but be completely turned off.

I mean, the plain fact of the matter is that in Wind Waker, Link is just some little kid playing hero. Sure he grows up, he gets the triforce of courage, he fights Ganon, but in the end, he's still a little kid playing hero, and in my oppinion the look of him made it hard to take seriously any change in the character. All of this to say one thing: I agree that Link's facial expressions should be variable like they were in Wind Waker, and I will enjoy them all the more because they will not be on the front of a big giant marshmallow head.

I don't think there's much to comment on here. The rAt takes a situation, finds a problem, and explains in perfect terms his opinion on the matter. There's no reason to question The rAt, because he is capable of infallible declaration of opinion. With surgeon-like precision. Like Chuck Norris delivering a bone-shattering roundhouse kick to evil's groin, The rAt cannot and WILL not be bested.

Someone commented earlier that the horse is Epona. Yes it is Epona, in the same way the guy in green is Link. That is, I find it highly unlikely that this Epona is OoT Epona in the same way I find it unlikely that this Link is OoT Link. Link is the LoZ name for a hero character. Epona is the LoZ name for a horse character. I think trying to make a connection between the two horses is reading into it a bit much.

YES! I also find this sort of thing incredibly immature. We've seen from the start of the Zelda series that names are recycled. I dare say that the only name that is recycled but isn't used on different, seperate characters is Ganon/Ganondorf.

On the subject of the Zoras, I thought I remembered hearing something awhile back about the Zoras becoming very reclusive after a certain point, and attacking anyone who bothered them. Hence in chronologically later games such as LoZ, perhaps the Zoras are a separate faction from those loyal to Ganon, and are simply attacking anything that gets too close? Who knows, but I believe the King Zora or whatever his name was that you encounter in LttP should factor into this debate...

Valid point, valid point. This is the only acceptable explanation. Anyone that says that Zolas are different from Zoras obviously is blind to the fact that the letter L doesn't exist in the Japanese language, while in Japanese, the letter R is pronounced with the L sound. It was obviously a mistake in translation.

That's enough. Back to business, folks. Nothing to see here.

 

[Bedi Vegeta]

I think Oot Link was like that mostly because they didn't have the technology for more emotions. I mean, you can easily tell what WW Link is thinking, but Oot Link had about 3 expressions... and a pointy nose. He seemed kind of incidental to me.

Yeah, it is pretty pointless to compare the two; OoT was one of the first 3D games of its kind out there, and Nintendo did pretty well even to put in the amount of emotion that was in it.

Also, I remember in a video (that Destiny Smasher linked to recently) that it was mentioned that TP is actually set between OoT and MM...I don't know if this is credible information, I believe the guy who said it was a Nintendo rep, but that's something else to speculate about...actually, now that I think about it, he may have said WW, not MM...now I'm confused...

So far this game is looking pretty cool, the character animation and mouth movement during dialogue is awesome, and it adds so much more character to the game. The actual setting of the game seems to have a slightly different feeling to it (Link's village looks a bit more eastern to me)...which is good and bad, but I would have been perfectly happy with an OoT carbon copy, so that's just me not liking change...

 

[blaksheap82]

All of this to say one thing: I agree that Link's facial expressions should be variable like they were in Wind Waker, and I will enjoy them all the more because they will not be on the front of a big giant marshmallow head.

I thought it was more pumpkin-shaped than marshmallow, but that's just me.

But seriously, I think that even aside from the cartoonish elements, I agree with Zink and Destiny Smasher on that. I can appreciate different art styles and techniques just from shows on Cartoon Network, and I've said in the New Console Debates thread (repeatedly, I think) that graphics are an art form. I wish more companies would go out on a limb with their games' graphics like Nin did with WW, or like Viewtiful Joe or Utltimate Spider-Man. We see graphics getting more realistic in more games all the time, and I'm starting to get a little tired of it, except for TP, because we haven't had a realistic Zelda like this yet.

Also on the subject of playing hero, if a kid today did anything even remotely comparable to that in real life, even something as quick as saving his kid sister from a burning house, he'd be called a hero, no one would say he's playing hero, because he really would be a hero. Vegeta and Zink were right about comparing the OoT and WW, though, the technology makes such a gap. Link in SSB looks like crap, and he's really not that much different from OoT Link. Incidentally, which came out first?

BTW, when I was thinking of cel-shading in FS, I was mostly thinking of the smoke when a defeated enemy dissapears, or the fire, like you mentioned Destiny.

 

[Zink]

I think WW Link's "lava bounce" fits into his character. He's a little kid: you can't expect him not to react after burning his butt on lava. He seems kind of immature because he IS immature.
Also, blaksheap, it is certainly possible for PARTS of a game to be cel-shaded. It doesn't all have to be the same art style. Parts of TP are cel-shaded, like the tatoos on those black enemies that fall from the sky.

 

[iAmMarth]

I heard that they might be making a Revolution version too. I was hoping they would.

 

[Deo_Smash]

In WW, I've must of spent an hour watching Link falling on his face. I can't help but laugh just thinking about it! I'd even try and get differnt camera angles so I could see his face as he fell.
I don't see what so horribly wrong with little things like Link falling on his face on ice. He's a kid and these immature atics are what kids do. Have you ever watched a little kid try to run on ice? Theres a good chance he'll fall flat on his face, get back up only to find himself,once again, face first in the -32 degrees of H2O. Now the lava since I've havn't seen in real life but I'm sure at some point I'll see some little kid with his pants on fire at some point and his face will most likly resemble that of Links in Wind Waker.

The only charecter that didn't appear appealing to me was Zelda when I first saw her. My first impression just made me think of a wh or e -wannabe. But after the mind shock, and on top of Ganons Tower, I felt I was fighting along side of Zelda.

 

[Zink]

I don't know why there is a big push away from "kiddy" games anyway... look at how good the game is, ignore the art style if you don't like it. Remember the first Pokemon games? They were looked down on because they were kiddy games, but some could see past that and liked it because it was a good turn-based RPG, monster collecting regardless.

 

[Deo_Smash]

Indeed, but the monster should be regarded. Each monster you catch was individual. And you can accostum your party to your liking, but you had to treat each monster individualy. You couldn't just go from fight to fight with one and everyone get exp and raises a level. You had work with each of them in you party. If you just had one good one, what would you do if he failed? You'd get screwed thats what.

 

[Chill]

FDV, that info about it taking place between OoT and MM is false. The producer of the game already said it takes place between OoT and WW.

Spoiler

The magazine interviewed Nintendo's own Yoshiyuki Oyama, currently working on the new Zelda title, about the project, and while he was overall mum on specifics, he did confirm that long-time nemesis Ganon would be back in full force. More intriguing still, though, was the promise he made about the character.

"No discussion of Twilight Princess' enemies can end without mentioning Ganon," Yoshiyuki said. "I know that everyone's wondering what's going on with Link's old nemesis. All I can say now is, we're preparing more than you could possibly ever, ever, expect."

On a related subject, Yoshiyuki told the publication that he feels previous Zelda outings served up a cast of enemies that were too easily defeated. In contrast, he said that the enemies and bosses in Twilight Princess will be much more challenging, which should be music to the ears of some seasoned gamers.

This game pretty much HAS to end with the flooding of Hyrule.

 

[Zink]

That would be an odd ending for a Zelda game... and is anyone else wondering about the relationship between Ganon's forces (moblins etc) and those dark creatures that fall from the sky?

 

[Marcel]

Ya ending in a flood would be pretty cool, or at least i think so.
And harder bosses/enemies would make me a happy man..

 

[blaksheap82]

Also, blaksheap, it is certainly possible for PARTS of a game to be cel-shaded. It doesn't all have to be the same art style. Parts of TP are cel-shaded, like the tatoos on those black enemies that fall from the sky.

Yeah, I know, that's why I said that about the fire and smoke, and I noticed the cel-shading in the TP trailers.

This game pretty much HAS to end with the flooding of Hyrule.

I don't know why, but for some reason that would be an awesome ending. I actually got a vague idea for a fic depicting The King of Red Lions and the sages planning and interacting in Hyrule under the sea, either before or after WW, like I said it was vague, so maybe this will give me a better idea on how to do that. More challenging bosses and enemies will definitely be a plus. They really seem to be taking this more mature theme and extrapolating it into every facet of the game.

 

[Zink]

I predict more of a prophecy of future calamity. The flood seems to be more of a gradual event than an apocalyptic Flood. So maybe at the end they will discuss some unknown future protection from Ganon. Althogh it would be cool to see a scene where Hyrule floods. Maybe the whole twlight realm is nothing to do with Ganon and he actually opposes it (because he wants to rule Hyrule? because it threatens him?) , with Link caught in the middle?

 

[Bahful]

Well, a flood would sure make for one heck of an epic ending. But at the beginning of WW didn't they say the gods chose to flood Hyrule because a hero DIDN'T appear when Ganon returned?

U-unless, Link was TRYING to appear, but got sidetracked in the twilight world with some other impending force of evil breathing down his neck.
Even though Ganon will play a role in this game, there's a chance he won't be the final boss or even the main adversary this time around.

 

[Deo_Smash]

Oy, I read Ganon is going to make an huge impact in this game or something to that effect, according to the latest issue of Nintendo Power. GAAH!!! I WANT TP NOW!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Chill]

Is this information regarded as a spoiler? I thought it was but I could be wrong.

 

[Zink]

First, I think encountering spoilers is a given in this topic.
Second, yes bahful, the hero didn't appear so Hyrule was flooded. But I think Link will clean out the twilight realm, as there is no mention of it in "future" games.
Third, Ganon and the twilight realm guys seem to be separate. We saw the big Moblin army, and also the twilight castle with the dark enemies. I am guessing this game may take place during and after the flood, which is slower than we think, and this is where Ganon is sealed away until WW.

 

[Mic_128]

That "Twilight" castle is Hyrule. It's become purpetually twilight in Hyrule, and anything that goes in there transforms. It's not a new place or anything.

 

[Chill]

First, I think encountering spoilers is a given in this topic.

Not if it can be helped. That's why we have these handy

Spoiler

spoiler tags.

 

[blaksheap82]

Yes, please, I'm in the US but I still beg for people to have the courtesy to use spoiler tags for people who don't have as much time to finish the game right away.

Also, I think someone else instigating the Twilight havoc would be a welcome change of pace, because all the Zelda games so far have only had one main villian, and it would be cool to see someone else causing Ganondorf grief, like uncontrollably changing into Pig-Ganon.

 

[Zink]

Spoiler

like this?

I didn't know how to do that.
Twilight might be a punishment from the gods that Link has to surpass, earning the gods' respect so they will flood Hyrule.

 

[The rAt]

Well, I have been unable to access a computer for quite some time, and it appears there has been no shortage of things to say in my absence, so I'd best get started.

First of all, smilingmadman, be careful; I'm the evil clone...

Secondly, just to respond to reactions on what I have said about Wind Waker, agree that graphics are arguably an art form. However, there is such a thing as good art, and poor art. I would classify Wind Waker graphics under the latter. I understand that most people here would disagree with me. Good for you. Let's throw an 'I disagree with The rAt' party and celebrate. My issues aren't just with the graphics, though, more so with the overall tone of the game. Link has been pre-established to have a certain, epic tone. The dangers are real, the problems are serious, and the world is in danger. Link falling on his face or flying in the air clutching his burning posterior at what would otherwise be very serious points in the game completely offset this. Of course I'm all for the occasional comic relief, but it has to be well placed. Its very distracting from the awe of a giant flaming millipede when I accidentally step in the lava and Link does his little but bouncing dance. This sort of thing turns Zelda into a Saturday morning cartoon, and while I have no problem with Saturday morning cartoons (actually, I grew up on them), they are not what Zelda has been about. I guess what I am saying is that I have no problem with cartoony, goofy games. That's why I play Mario. That's NOT why I play Zelda. If you disagree with me, good for you. But my oppinion on the topic isn't going to change, and yours probably won't either, so lest we digress into the 'Why Wind Waker is the best' or 'Why Wind Waker isn't the best' topic, lets just agree to disagree, eh?

Thirdly, on more recent discusions, it has been said that this game takes place between OoT and WW. I see a problem with this. Why don't we hear about him in WW? I mean, it was directly stated in the intro that when Ganon showed up, Link didn't. I would think that even if Link failed, they'd still notice him running around TRYING to stop Ganon. And beyond that, why would they hear about OoT Link, which comes before this Link, and seems to have less connection to the Hyrule of WW than TP Link, but not the more relevant of the two? Now, this got me thinking, is it possible that WW was actually refering to TP Link? Let's look at the references; statue of adult Link holding master sword and hylian shield, drawing in intro of Link riding epona, connection to the Triforce, mention of time-travel. Aside from the time-travel thing, we could make the connection to TP Link (assuming he uses the Master Sword at some point, as he already uses the Hylian shield {which btw is different from the Hero's shield, and hasn't been seen since OoT}). It would be possible for a single time traveling incident to take place during the plot, possibly something minor, in which case Wind Waker could refer to TP Link. Now, of course to expect this would be to severely overestimate Nintendo. I just brought it up to see what is thought of the idea.

No, the true solution is this... OoT Link, or The Hero of Time, is obviously associated with Ganon. You can see that in the way the intro to WW is handled. People are plagued by Ganon, they expect OoT Link to show up and save them. It makes no sense why they would forget about another, more recent TP Link who has saved them from Ganon and expect the old OoT Link to show up instead. One would think he would at least merit a mention, right? Well, not if TP Link didn't fight Ganon. I mean, think about it, in their eyes Ganon is this all-powerful super-being, and they would need someone of equal status to destroy him, someone who has already fought him. Of course they wouldn't look to for someone who has no association with his name, because he hasn't fought Ganon. Sure he may have taken out whatever big scary villan he fought, but not Ganon, but that's not Ganon.

Okay, that was very fragmented, so let me summarize it. For the timeline to make sense, it is arguably necessary that TP Link does NOT fight Ganon.

I had more to say, but my little bro has a basketball game, so maybe later. Take it easy all.

Andy

 

[Zink]

You make some good story points, but in the most recent NP an enemy designer says Ganon will have a bigger effect than can be imagined, or something to that effect. I can argue WW art, but maybe that should be a separate topic.
Anyway, if you saw my last post, you know my views on Twilight. I think Ganon might be part of a three-way war: the Twilight forces, Link, and Ganon's armies.
Did anyone else notice the siliarities between the twilight zone and frozen Hyrule from WW?
I think the Master Sword will be important in this game. People have said that Link is not using the Master Sword in the screenshots, but he often weilds different swords, and has he ever started out with the M Sword? In MM he has the Hero's Sword or something like that, I believe... seeing as he left the Msword in Hyrule, sealing the Temple of Time.

 

[Chill]

That would make sense the Rat, the only problem is that it has already been said that Ganon would be in the game and have a large impact on it. Although they could very well be referencing to what occurs before the WW. But the hero that saved them was called the Hero of Time. Unless TP Link also ends up being called the Hero of Time the hero spoken of in the WW is not TP Link.

 

[Zink]

Isn't Oot Link refered to as the Hero of Time in the game itself somewhere? I think I remember this... maybe the Sages?
Hey rat, my name is Andy too.

 

[Deo_Smash]

Good Zelda games can come without Ganon or Ganondorf, heck even games without Zelda! But TP is going to have our favriot trio hope, valor, and destruction. As awsoume as Link looks life like, Ganondorf is an even more amazing spectation than any evil doer I have ever seen and I can't wait to get a good look into the King of Evil himself.

 

[Cronos_Rainbow]

Is it just me or do you guys expect Nintendo to have already planned the story of the next Zelda games as they make the currently worked on title. I mean TP Link isn't mentioned in WW because it wasn't even theorised yet. Regardless of the time line, though it seems to me TP comes later than WW, it doesn't matter. It does however seem in WW that the Master Sword hasn't been used (since the hero of time). Obviously BigG only falls to that weapon and nothing else so you can pretty much rest assured it'll be in TP.

 

[Chill]

I don't expect them to plan them out ahead of time but I do expect it to make sense. If they can't find a way to make TP Link fit in between OoT and the WW then they shouldn't do it. Make it before OoT or after the WW. I think after the WW would have been a better descison in the first place. Pulling that sword out of ganondorfs head would have been cool.