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The lack of l canceling is not a bad thing.

SeyeFeye

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
1
Taking from a player's perspetive who has some tourney experience with no outstanding wins, I can affirm that l-cancelling had at least one benefit for even those who didn't use it in competitive play, which is adding to the overall finger speed/reaction time needed for any fighting game, just how wavedashing, dash-dancing, etc. have added to the game (paraphrasing from somewhere on smashboards and own experience). Who hasn't seen one video where even the most slow-paced mindgamey, less technically focused player "showing his moves" after knocking out his opponent. And this argument has nothing to do with the competitiveness of the game, unless you count faking out your opponent with "mindgames."

Wanted not my "mindgames" to post end in because debate not I wanted about it to. ;)
 

NOT Sliq

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Messages
71
So... you're telling me the first two years (rough estimation) of Melee without ATs was unfun and not competitive even though we had tournaments anyway? :dizzy:
Your argument is flawed, because we know ALL about those things NOW. If we had NEVER discovered them, then yes, Brawl would be amazing. However, we did discover them, and they did add depth to the game, depth that Brawl has removed and seemingly replaced with NOTHING.

It is like if you were sent back in time to say the 1700's. Sure, you could survive, but I'm sure you would miss all the advancements done by humans in that time span.

However, if you lived in 1750 and was sent back to 1700, you wouldn't be missing all the advancements because you were UNAWARE OF THEM.
 

TheMagicalKuja

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 25, 2001
Messages
2,079
Location
I'm not telling you psychos
3DS FC
2020-0988-7919
So wait, is this a bad thing or a good thing?

Sometimes people in here can sound so critical that you can never tell when they're being positive or negative.
Good thing. I'm really not buying "BUT BUT MARTH IS BROKEN" stuff and I'm also not buying the fact that Brawl is not competitive. Even though I've seen firsthand how less technical the game is, the lack of this technicality doesn't kill the idea of competitiveness. If someone good at the game still consistently wins, then there's still competition. All that matters.
 

Nuvia

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
504
This has been said over and over and all it is is people BAWWWING over the loss of their advanced techs and/or "depth." Plus we don't even have Brawl in the US yet and people are already declaring it this and that. That my friends, is what is called jumping the gun.
 

NOT Sliq

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Messages
71
Good thing. I'm really not buying "BUT BUT MARTH IS BROKEN" stuff and I'm also not buying the fact that Brawl is not competitive. Even though I've seen firsthand how less technical the game is, the lack of this technicality doesn't kill the idea of competitiveness. If someone good at the game still consistently wins, then there's still competition. All that matters.
Yeah, but if it is BORING or UNFUN then whats the point? If all it is is basically Jigglypuff dittos, spacing until you land a hit, then occasionally doind 2 hit combos, then it is going to be boring and stupid.

Also, what is the point of downgrading to a more shallow game from what that totally kicks ****ing ass?
 

ToyzSoldier

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 24, 2006
Messages
175
Location
Toms River, NJ
Read my whole post, both you and Sheermadness. I specifically said why this isn't the case. L-canceling was great in melee, but all the devs had to do for the switch to Brawl was decrease everyone's landing lag and we'd have essentially the same results.

EDIT: Thanks for all the replies, and cookies, though!
Um, snake's bair has horrible lag. Not even Link's l-canceled dair is that slow.
 

SothE700k

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
1,550
Location
Aurora, Illinois
The thing is you talk about Tournament Level Melee like you know what you are talking about, when you ****ing don't. From a noob standpoint Brawl is going to be infinitely better than Melee. BUT FROM A TOURNAMENT STANDPOINT IT APPEARS TO BE INFERIOR.

Brawl does suck compared to Melee from A TOURNAMENT STANDPOINT. THEREFORE IF YOU ARE NOT PART OF THE TOURNAMENT PLAYERS THEN YOUR OPINION IS NOT VALID BECAUSE YOU LACK THE KNOWLEDGE NECESSARY TO MAKE A CORRELATION BETWEEN THE 2.

Brawl will be an AMAZING party game. But it appears it will not be as deep as Melee in TERMS OF TOURNAMENT PLAY.

You can't possibly argue that it will because you know absolutely nothing about Tournament Melee. How could you possibly compare Tournament Melee to Tournament Brawl when you don't know anything about either of them? I at least know about 1 of them.

inb4brawlisanewgame, as if all of a sudden Smash went from a fighter to a cooking game. THE CORE MECHANICS ARE STILL THERE *******S.

The game may seem deeper for noobs because they never used the AT's to actually realize how versatile they were, so therefore NOTHING HAS BEEN REMOVED FROM THE GAME FROM THEIR STANDPOINT, SINCE THEY NEVER USED THEM ANYWAYS.
 

WastingPenguins

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 29, 2006
Messages
827
Location
Ohio
Yuna, as much as I agree with most of the things you're saying, I think at times you are being excessively and even inaccurately negative. As an example I will point to the discussion about using rolling in Brawl, in which you stated many times how punishable that maneuver is. The thing is-- it ISN'T as punishable anymore. The lack of superior movement techniques that enabled you to punish rolling so easily before(i.e. wavedashing, dd) makes rolling a more viable tactic. Even simply the slower, floatier, laggier pace of the game means rolling is a better option than before. You're definitely going to be rolling around in Brawl at times.

Granted, rolling is still pretty limited and inherently less "tactical" than the movement options we used to have, but it's pretty obvious to me that it's less punishable and generally more viable.
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
Administrator
BRoomer
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Messages
22,906
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NNID
SSBM_PLAYER
You didn't need dashdance or wavedash to punish rolling. You just had to walk menacingly in the opponent's direction, wait for him to roll behind you, and fsmash him during the lag after the roll.
 

NOT Sliq

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Messages
71
CAPSLOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL.

Yeah, the IMPORTANT points that I didn't want people to miss are huge, so instead of serving me some fresh copypasta from their last post they'll read it, and then promptly STFU.

Opinion Alert.
No, it is a hypothetical scenario you dumb bastard.

Hence the big fat "IF" at the beginning of the sentence. Kill yourself. IF the game isn't fun, then no one is going to play it. If it is LESS FUN than Melee, then it is pretty stupid to switch over because Brawl is newer.
 

Blinky

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
245
Location
UK
Debating about whether the advanced techs would add depth to Brawl is futile, the game is made, and l-cancelling is out. Whether it’s a good thing or bad thing is irrelevant. Brawl will have a competative scene, but whether it's better or worse is subjective. If you enjoy the game then play it and enjoy it, if you don’t, play melee or another game. If a game could please everyone, then it would be the perfect game which is impossible to achieve.
 

verditude

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
346
Your argument is flawed, because we know ALL about those things NOW. If we had NEVER discovered them, then yes, Brawl would be amazing. However, we did discover them, and they did add depth to the game, depth that Brawl has removed and seemingly replaced with NOTHING.

It is like if you were sent back in time to say the 1700's. Sure, you could survive, but I'm sure you would miss all the advancements done by humans in that time span.

However, if you lived in 1750 and was sent back to 1700, you wouldn't be missing all the advancements because you were UNAWARE OF THEM.
I think the transition from Smash 64 to Melee is a fair parallel to the transition from Melee to Brawl. After Melee was released, I personally thought,
"Z-Cancelling is not as good, I can't use my shield-pressure to shield grab combos anymore!"
"Throws aren't killing moves anymore, I can't finish combos with them!"
Et cetera. I felt VERY limited having to deal with any lag after doing an aerial at first, and was wondering why they didn't allow me to cancel all of it, for example.

Also, I don't think we should give up on Brawl just yet. The best way to find the limits of a game is tournament testing. By sticking with Melee, we potentially lose a chance to play a great fighter at a high level. Now, I'm not saying Brawl will definitely be as good of a fighter as Melee. It might be worse for numerous reasons, many specified in this topic, but there's no reason not to try it because of a few days of play in which nothing of extreme value* has been discovered.

If some characters don't have ways to approach in the air due to a lack of L-cancel/getting shield grabbed (although most do, like Bowser/Ganon with their air grabs, Dedede with projectiles) the tier list will reflect this development. It will become similar to Melee, where half the cast is generally considered unplayable in tourneys. Some characters still have low-lag airs, similar to an L-cancelled air in Melee. The fact that we have more unique characters that can approach aerially in a competent way should be a reason for not rejecting Brawl for its crappy aerial game and going back, as it increases character diversity and the necessity for varying strategy.

I'm sort of pissed about everyone saying this too: EDGEGUARDING IS NOT IMPOSSIBLE. You just can't do it from the ledge, you have to keep your opponent more than a character length away from the ledge (otherwise they can sweetspot) by jumping out. This is a balancing factor, characters like Pit, Kirby, Meta, Jiggs, even Lucario and ROB can edgeguard more easily (partially because they can stay out longer, they can foil multiple airdodges with multiple attacks) than characters like Ike who can kill at below 100% and thus has less need for edgeguarding.

Meteors/spikes are all apparently more powerful, but harder to time and use effectively, or have big drawbacks if you miss. This is good. Lag after airdodging also serves to balance the new system. This system seems to favor the recovering player because everyone's trying to edgeguard like they did in Melee.
Overall edgeguarding depth vs. recovering depth is not reduced either. Any Melee strat that we lost is made up for by the new possibilities of off-stage edgeguarding, which Melee's falling speeds greatly limited. You can now drillshine opponents while over the edge, for instance, since the shinespike is nerfed.

*We have, in fact, found a few mechanics which allow the game to be very deep, such as the use of stale moves to increase combo potential.
 

Endless Nightmares

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 23, 2006
Messages
4,090
Location
MN
It's funny how people keep coming up with johns about how brawl will somehow be more competitive than melee, or competitive at all.

No Johns.
 

flyinfilipino

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 11, 2007
Messages
4,319
Location
North Carolina
It's funny how people keep coming up with johns about how brawl will somehow be more competitive than melee, or competitive at all.

No Johns.
I personally find it funny that competitive Smash players who have already condemned the game are still hanging around the Brawl boards just to tell everyone. That's just me though, and feel free to extract any opinions you feel I might have from that statement.
 

Nuvia

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
504
No, it is a hypothetical scenario you dumb bastard.

Hence the big fat "IF" at the beginning of the sentence. Kill yourself. IF the game isn't fun, then no one is going to play it. If it is LESS FUN than Melee, then it is pretty stupid to switch over because Brawl is newer.
Well, that's not very polite.
 

Rash

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 20, 2006
Messages
974
Location
Massachusetts
You know how message boards have limitations for new members? That is, as a new member you might need to hit a certain post limit before making threads and whatnot?

Apply the same thing to the Brawl forums, except put the negative-nancy competitive players in place of "new members." Keep them all out of the Brawl forums until they've all actually had enough time to play the game and pass thorough judgement. That way we could avoid crappy threads about the loss of Smash's competitiveness.

Of course, such a thing is impossible. But, it'd be pretty darn nice. If new members have to be silenced, then why shouldn't whiners as well? No Melee-player is elite at Brawl yet, so they're authority over others on SmashBoards should only be limited to, well, the Melee forums. Thus, they're pretty much just like new members of a message board, and should be silenced. As you can probably tell, there's not productivity in nearly spamming up the boards with threads complaining about competitive losses, maybe even less so than, say, if a board newbie posted a thread asking a dumb question which they could've just searched for in the first place.
 

ShortAssassin

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 15, 2006
Messages
332
There is still spacing and mindgames for competitive play, it just won't be as technical.
The argument people are trying make is that without dash dancing, wavedashing, and l-canceling, there are fewer ways to use mindgames because the movement and approach abilities of the characters have been limited.
 

WastingPenguins

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 29, 2006
Messages
827
Location
Ohio
If someone good at the game still consistently wins, then there's still competition. All that matters.
Statements like this make me think of the card game popular in the middle west United States, Euchre. Here is a game that seems very complicated when you first start playing it. Then you play it for a few months and realize it isn't, at all. It's a very shallow game. My friends and I played it constantly in high school, and after so long you can go on literal auto pilot. I can get a Euchre hand and lay the cards down in the exact order that I will play them. The ultimate skill ceiling for the game is very low, so when we would sit down to play it was not really competitive. When it is that easy to play "perfectly" then how can it be?

The same holds true for a video game. If the "peak" of Brawl performance were too easy to achieve, there would be plenty of people out there who will reach it or come close. Tournament results would be all over the place, and that's the mark of a random game, not a competitive game. You're definitely right in one respect-- the true test of Brawl's competitiveness will be whether or not a group of players emerges as the best of the best.
 

COMMOFDOOM

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 16, 2006
Messages
152
Before I get to the main part of the post, I want to say two things.
1)Read my whole post before replying or flaming, and especially read more than my title.
2)I know the initial negativity has died down somewhat, but I still think this needs to be said.


The first thing I should do is describe what I consider l-canceling. L-canceling (fully known as lag canceling) is a (mainly non-obvious) technique is the Super Smash Brothers games that reduces the landing lag of a player’s aerials.

Since Brawl has come out, I’ve seen many posts where people have said that they were disappointed by the apparent removal of l-canceling from the game, especially since it was there in E-for-All. Some common complaints were that l-canceling allowed for combos and safety that otherwise wasn’t there. People also said that it added depth to the game. The point of this post is to prove these, and hopefully any other, complaints flawed.

First, l-canceling has no strategic depth whatsoever. The reason for this is that, once learned, there is simply no reason to not do it. It’s like, in melee as Marth facing Sheik, purposefully doing an fsmash right out range of a fully mobile Sheik. You can shout, “MINDGAMES!” all you want, but regardless, you’re just opening yourself up for punishment. When there’s no thought downside to doing something, no reason to take another path, there’s obviously no strategy involved. This is in contrast to wavedashing, where you may want to jump or dash to move instead.

All the general depth that l-canceling provides in Brawl is pointless and unnecessary. I’d say it’s safe to say that anything that gives you more options or ways to move/attack/block/grab (especially when not obvious) is depth. Although very minor, being able to walk, run, or jump would be depth. Being able to light-shield is depth. When you l-cancel, it’s also technically depth, but it’s only useful having it in Melee. In that game, l-canceling allowed us to do combos or follow-ups otherwise impossible, and have greater safety when approaching with an aerial. Brawl is a fresh new game, however, and the devs had no reason to keep it in. The reason for this is that l-canceling just reduces lag. All they had to do was lower aerial lag in general. If they had kept melee’s l-cancel, and doubled Brawl’s average aerial lag (which they very well could’ve done) then the only difference would be that we have to press an extra button to get to where we are now. (It seems that we do have more average landing lag in Brawl then in Melee, but that’s not because of l-canceling’s exclusion.) There’s really no reason for them to have us press that extra button, except for one thing, and that is to keep a bigger gap between casuals/scrubs and pros/competitive players.

That has also been a complaint of some people, I believe. That too is flawed thinking, though. First off, I’m not going to show why it’s bad to want a gap, or just more depth in general. That’s not the problems. There are two main problems for wanting l-canceling just for the above described skill gap. One, advanced techs are not as much a factor as mindgames and smart thinking/strategy. That’s why Ken or Chu or whoever could probably 4-stock me in melee, because I use Melee’s advanced techs. There’s no way the developers can take that away. In fact, it seems like they’re putting a tiny bit more stress on such things in this game then in Melee (but that’s for a different post.) The other reason that wanting l-canceling for that reason is flawed is because Brawl, as already stated, is a whole new game. There are many possible new techniques that have yet to be discovered. I myself would be very surprised if we didn’t find a single new technique that overshadows what l-canceling did for Melee.

I hope that I’ve showed all of you why taking out l-canceling is not a bad thing for Brawl. Although it did good things for Melee, this is a new game, and it is no longer needed.

If our purpose is to make the game easy to play then why not just set our controllers to computer and watch it play?
 

NOT Sliq

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Messages
71
You know how message boards have limitations for new members? That is, as a new member you might need to hit a certain post limit before making threads and whatnot?

Apply the same thing to the Brawl forums, except put the negative-nancy competitive players in place of "new members." Keep them all out of the Brawl forums until they've all actually had enough time to play the game and pass thorough judgement. That way we could avoid crappy threads about the loss of Smash's competitiveness.

Of course, such a thing is impossible. But, it'd be pretty darn nice. If new members have to be silenced, then why shouldn't whiners as well? No Melee-player is elite at Brawl yet, so they're authority over others on SmashBoards should only be limited to, well, the Melee forums. Thus, they're pretty much just like new members of a message board, and should be silenced. As you can probably tell, there's not productivity in nearly spamming up the boards with threads complaining about competitive losses, maybe even less so than, say, if a board newbie posted a thread asking a dumb question which they could've just searched for in the first place.
You see, we want people to PROVE US WRONG. We come here, point out all the facts that backed by experience, hoping someone will PROVE US WRONG by demonstrating Brawl's depth, or perhaps by finding some new technique. But currently, we get, "lol brawl is a new gaem lol."

Yes, Brawl is new, but it still based off of the core mechanic behind ALL SMASH BROS. GAMES. It isn't a racing game now, or turn based. The core elements ARE STILL THERE. It is ludicrous to think that you can take experiences from its predecessor and extrapolate it through Brawl and not find ANY COMMON CONNECTIONS.

But seriously, prove us wrong. The only way we win this argument is if we are wrong. If we are right, Brawl fails, and we are left with a non-competitive game.
 

COMMOFDOOM

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 16, 2006
Messages
152
You see, we want people to PROVE US WRONG. We come here, point out all the facts that backed by experience, hoping someone will PROVE US WRONG by demonstrating Brawl's depth, or perhaps by finding some new technique. But currently, we get, "lol brawl is a new gaem lol."

Yes, Brawl is new, but it still based off of the core mechanic behind ALL SMASH BROS. GAMES. It isn't a racing game now, or turn based. The core elements ARE STILL THERE. It is ludicrous to think that you can take experiences from its predecessor and extrapolate it through Brawl and not find ANY COMMON CONNECTIONS.

But seriously, prove us wrong. The only way we win this argument is if we are wrong. If we are right, Brawl fails, and we are left with a non-competitive game.
LULZ WTF PWNED by a new member. Sliq FTW.
 

Jackal478

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
784
Location
Mechanicsville, VA
The game has been out for a few weeks, and you guys are freaking out over your precious Adv. Techs getting cut?

I mean, I WD, I Dashance, etc., and ALL OF YOU and I should get over the fact that they were excluded this time around.

But they made the game for everyone. Not for the competitive scene...

Plus, there is a major thing most are missing, guess how many years melee has had time to build up one of the greatest metagames.

SIX YEARS.

OVER 2,000 DAYS.

DO THE MATH, You guys should take the game for what it is, or NOT AT ALL.

Stop whining over a game that hasnt even been out for a month.
 

COMMOFDOOM

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 16, 2006
Messages
152
The game has been out for a few weeks, and you guys are freaking out over your precious Adv. Techs getting cut?

I mean, I WD, I Dashance, etc., and ALL OF YOU and I should get over the fact that they were excluded this time around.

But they made the game for everyone. Not for the competitive scene...

Plus, there is a major thing most are missing, guess how many years melee has had time to build up one of the greatest metagames.

SIX YEARS.

OVER 2,000 DAYS.

DO THE MATH, You guys should take the game for what it is, or NOT AT ALL.

Stop whining over a game that hasnt even been out for a month.
Our point is the lack of advanced techs means the game won't have competitive play and will die in 3 months.

Our other point is that brawl doesn't add depth like melee did, brawl subtracts it. The brawl metagame is a subset of the melee metagame. Pretty much everything that can be done in brawl can be done in melee.

Now there's obviously goodies like coop singleplayer but that doesn't make a good game.


The inescapable fact is that games with shallow depth fade away and are never seen again.
 

Jackal478

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
784
Location
Mechanicsville, VA
Our point is the lack of advanced techs means the game won't have competitive play and will die in 3 months.

Our other point is that brawl doesn't add depth like melee did, brawl subtracts it. The brawl metagame is a subset of the melee metagame. Pretty much everything that can be done in brawl can be done in melee.

Now there's obviously goodies like coop singleplayer but that doesn't make a good game.


The inescapable fact is that games with shallow depth fade away and are never seen again.
Have you played the game?
 

Rash

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 20, 2006
Messages
974
Location
Massachusetts
Prove you wrong? How about prove us wrong.

Oh yeah, that's right. You can't. But I can't prove you wrong either. You know why?

1) I'm not even a competitive player on the same level as you. Therefore Brawl will remain awesome for years.

2) Even if I was, I haven't played the game. If I had, I doubt it would've been long enough to anyway.

It'd be nice to see this put to rest when the game's been out for a good several months.
 

OddCrow

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 20, 2007
Messages
628
3DS FC
1676-3709-1310
never got the hang of L-canceling in the first place... I'm glad it's gone : )
/flameshield
...lol
 
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