The Lab - Mewtwo's Birthplace (Mechanics Thread)

[DrinkingFood]

I'm not going to sit content with that.

never cared to begin with actually.

So anyway, MewTwo has a little weak windbox on side-b just after the grab ends. I'm not exactly sure that it's very useful, but I've had it do lulzy things like throw off an opponent's spacing on an approach while I reflected a fireball, making his (Mario's) nair whiff just in front of me. Thoughts? It's probably only reliable as a swag edgeguard, I think.

 

[GeZ]

Well this got really lame really fast. I expected better 2CHiLLED.

how high must you be to hover cancel? any height? I still don't get it. I'll head to the lab tomorrow. From what I gather, no specific mention to having to start from the ground. Can you just input control stick down, tap jump… and immediately input an aerial? how would this be any faster? did PMBR code anything to just allow the aerial to finish faster? Maybe Im too tired. need sleep. Goodnight.

I'm not very well versed in it but I think how it works is that you input hover from standing, which gives you the initial tiny bit of hover off the ground at the beginning of it, then input an aerial during that tiny float from the start of hover, and touch back down to the ground from your hover as you're doing the aerial. The result is an aerial executed as close to the ground as is possible, with the endlag of hover rather than the endlag of the move, leaving you positive frames varying from 3-5 (a frame being a sixtieth of a second).

The frames are important to note in response to how long it takes your opponents moves to come out. So for instance, you HC a Fair onto your opponents shield. Most characters have grabs that come out in around 7 frames, or 7 sixtieths of a second for those of you listening from home, while performing a Jab with Mewtwo comes out in (I have no idea how many frames but not fast enough to beat out grab). But, with HC Fair, you are able to act about 4 frames before your opponent. This means that your jab is coming out in (whatever it's default frames are) minus the four frames of advantage you have off of the HC'd Fair, meaning that your jab will actually come out faster, and beat, the grab.

In a lot of other fighting games this situation is called a frame trap, as your leaving your opponent enough open time to have a move get out, but not enough time for the move to have a good chance of beating your move out. For Mewtwo specifically, I'd say the HC'd Fair to jab to beat grab is comparable to the frame trap, while the HC'd Fair, to HC'd Fair, etc, is more an analog for a block string.

So anyway, MewTwo has a little weak windbox on side-b just after the grab ends. I'm not exactly sure that it's very useful, but I've had it do lulzy things like throw off an opponent's spacing on an approach while I reflected a fireball, making his (Mario's) nair whiff just in front of me. Thoughts? It's probably only reliable as a swag edgeguard, I think.

I've noticed that too. Love the little *******. I think it may have less direct application, and more just be something Mewtwo players get to enjoy as a bonus to Side B, as I can't really think of any direct application, but I can think of how useful it is as a tacked on effect, and how many times it's pushed opponents just out of reach. I actually use the move more often on my friend who mains Marth because the wind push ruins his tippers, which is wonderful.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

I just don't feel like entertaining people right now. Coming down off a .... and I'm chillin' practicing. I could care less so I'll just let it go.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

And no you don't have to start hover cancels from the ground you can still perform them by hovering just when you reach the usual height for hover cancels and then inputting your aerial.

 

[GeZ]

And no you don't have to start hover cancels from the ground you can still perform them by hovering just when you reach the usual height for hover cancels and then inputting your aerial.

I forgot that he was asking generally, and was describing doing it from the neutral position. My mistake.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

I forgot that he was asking generally, and was describing doing it from the neutral position. My mistake.

It's all good. You gave him alot more of an answer than I did lol.

 

[xXSciophobiaXx]

so if you use a hovered aerial and an aerial, they will be performed for the same frames. If you hover cancel an aerial, it will require less frames. But you must touch the ground to get the hover cancel? You can't be juggling an opponent, chasing them into the sky and hover cancelling aerials as you go? I don't see any practicality unless you are on the ground or near it? Although I suppose you can be falling toward your opponent, throw out a hover just above the ground, use an aerial and cancel it, yes?

Also, i just want to be extra clear, do you have to move mewtwo during the float, after inputting the aerial towards the ground? or is it the cancelling of the float with the aerial that returns mewtwo to the ground? I suppose I can just go TO THE LAB!

EDIT: So Im back from the labs, and Im looking for a little input (pun most definitely intended). When I go to perform hover cancels, I tap jump, then immediately after input down on control stick to initiate hover. When the frames are good, I input F-air (c-stick), and keep holding down until i drift into the stage. Rinse and Repeat. Im semi-effective at it and was wondering how others are doing this with their inputs.

Also, when is this especially applicable? Opponent jumps in, aerial lands on shield, you hover cancel fairs out and counter pressure / combo? Do you want to try to string fairs together or does it make more sense to put out one fair, double jab then dash and immediately JC a grab?

 

[Vale]

I don't see any practicality unless you are on the ground or near it? Although I suppose you can be falling toward your opponent, throw out a hover just above the ground, use an aerial and cancel it, yes?

Also, when is this especially applicable? Opponent jumps in, aerial lands on shield, you hover cancel fairs out and counter pressure / combo? Do you want to try to string fairs together or does it make more sense to put out one fair, double jab then dash and immediately JC a grab?

You are correct in that you must be near the ground for it to be applicable.
The hover cancel is basically a better version of a lag-cancel (l/z-cancel). Basically, replace hover with any time you would be l-cancelling (e.g. SHFFL approaches). You might already know this, but I couldn't tell due to the wording: the landing lag is what gets cancelled, not the hover (you can perform multiple aerials within a single hover if you do not touch the ground).

 

[xXSciophobiaXx]

Due to the fact that its a hover'd landing as opposed to a normal aerial in the air with aerial land lag yes?

 

[Vale]

Correct. The endlag is reduced because you were in a hover state while using the aerial and landing.
Edit to previous post: I guess the hover technically ends ("cancelled") too when you hit the ground, but w/e.

 

[EmuKiller]

So Mewtwo's dash attack causes him to fall off the stage if you input left or right DI when dash attacking the ledge.

So like, the most basic use for this is dash attack the ledge, hold left stick towards the center of the stage, and you fall off and grab the ledge. Slower but easy edge hog.

You can also dash attack the ledge, hold in, hold jump, and you'll instantly be hovering offstage facing the center of the stage able to back-air. I mean, not sure if it's better but it's definitely cute and your opponent won't expect you to be able to back-air.

Bigger use I've found is you can dash attack the ledge, hold in, then fast fall with an aerial. This is pretty awesome for edgeguarding, since if you were to wavedash off and fast fall you'd end up grabbing the ledge (probably?) and this is definitely an easier input in the first place even if you can avoid grabbing the ledge.

 

[Jade_Rock55]

Dash attacking ledges,hovering,hover cancel and a bunch of other M2 techniques will keep me busy this break just trying to learn all this stuff

Sounds like a nice dash attack trick I can try it tomorrow after school.

 

[EmuKiller]

yeah I'm not sure if it's THAT much better than wavedash off -> fast fall so you don't grab the ledge (it works, if you look at my previous post I was unsure), but it's definitely up there on the swag factor and could just be a stylistic thing.

I should say the reason I don't think it's better is because when you wavedash off -> fastfall you have a good amount of momentum so you can hit farther away from the ledge (measuring horizontally). When you do this dash attack trick you start out falling straight down and can't move as far horizontally.

 

[DrinkingFood]

So Mewtwo's dash attack causes him to fall off the stage if you input left or right DI when dash attacking the ledge.

So like, the most basic use for this is dash attack the ledge, hold left stick towards the center of the stage, and you fall off and grab the ledge. Slower but easy edge hog.

You can also dash attack the ledge, hold in, hold jump, and you'll instantly be hovering offstage facing the center of the stage able to back-air. I mean, not sure if it's better but it's definitely cute and your opponent won't expect you to be able to back-air.

Bigger use I've found is you can dash attack the ledge, hold in, then fast fall with an aerial. This is pretty awesome for edgeguarding, since if you were to wavedash off and fast fall you'd end up grabbing the ledge (probably?) and this is definitely an easier input in the first place even if you can avoid grabbing the ledge.

just a clarification
DI is not the right term here, DI is only something you do when you get hit

also if it works like other dash attacks that slide off edges, crouching and shielding should allow you to slide off as well
i think this is just a consequence the move retaining momentum after its IASA frames

 

[drsusredfish]

no one mentioned this so i guess it's not well known (or im just late to finding it). after you teleport you can reverse the direction you are facing as you reappear. just press the opposite direction of your teleportation direction right after his disappearing flash.

 

[GeZ]

Saw some people mentioning this in another thread. I figured it out about a week ago and thinks it's a niche useful technique.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Yeah being able to teleport off the stage into a reverse bair, and then jumping back onto the stage is pretty useful.

 

[Rakaydos]

Something that's more of a fake than a combo- I was expirimenting with something I think is called Moonwalking (dash and half circle back) and timing a dash attack right at the end, so mewtwo surged foreward, slides back, then go foreward again behind a dash hitbox.

Also, just like melee, you can combo the end of a dash attack into Usmash or Uair.

 

[Phan7om]

I KNOW THIS ISNT A TRUE COMBO! but I thought it was cool/funny.
Fthrow > Teleport Up > Shadow Ball... if they DI up.

Either it kills, or it pressures the opponent not to jump
Also I feel that for M2 users, its good to learn to SH Teleport forward back. You can do anything aerial out of it (except airdodge) being a really useful mixup. Ive been using Teleport > Disable and Teleport SB a lot.

 

[GeZ]

I KNOW THIS ISNT A TRUE COMBO! but I thought it was cool/funny.
Fthrow > Teleport Up > Shadow Ball... if they DI up.

Either it kills, or it pressures the opponent not to jump
Also I feel that for M2 users, its good to learn to SH Teleport forward back. You can do anything aerial out of it (except airdodge) being a really useful mixup. Ive been using Teleport > Disable and Teleport SB a lot.

Kinda neat, but I'd rather do more if I get a throw. I actually rarely Fthrow as Dthrow combo's and leads to tech chase better, and Uthrow and Bthrow kill better.

 

[StriderAaron360]

When are the most optimal times to use SH fair?

 

[ss118]

as a quick OOS option that has a decent follow up afterwards. Maybe on shorter characters it will shield poke, so that could be a potential use as well.

 

[StriderAaron360]

What are Mewtwo's best options if the opponent winds up behind him? For me, turning around and grabbing doesn't seem to come out fast enough.

 

[ss118]

Depends on the distance and the opposing character. If Marth gets behind you and he's his fair distance away, I would recommend just rolling away at that point. Same for fox/ falco and they're RIGHT behind you.

I would suggest never being in those positions. I think you're better off with your back facing the opponent because bair is so good at controlling the space behind you, but try to abuse floating more so that you always have the superior positioning in those cases so you don't think "**** I'm ****ed".

Again, worst case scenario mewtwo has a good roll so abuse that if necessary.

 

[Youngster Joey]

so ive been having trouble up smashing oos. im trying to use this to get out of shield pressure along with up b oos. i havent started using these so i cant say if they work for sure but i havent been able to get the u smash out. im currently using the wifi safe set so idk if that changes anything

and for the record i do know how to u smash oos. its not the fact that im forgetting the jump input

 

[EmuKiller]

Something else I found, you can do a very short hover before you do a 2nd jump, cancel that short hover, and still have your 2nd jump any amount of time later. Normally hover takes away your 2nd jump, but doing that mini hover can give you a little bit extra recovery when you need it.

 

[GeZ]

Something else I found, you can do a very short hover before you do a 2nd jump, cancel that short hover, and still have your 2nd jump any amount of time later. Normally hover takes away your 2nd jump, but doing that mini hover can give you a little bit extra recovery when you need it.

That was included so that you don't accidentally hover for a second and lose your second jump, ****ing up your recovery. But honestly Mewtwo doesn't need it, as his recovery is insane already and anything that couldn't be saved by it won't be saved by the extra inch that the tiny hover gives you.

 

[xXSciophobiaXx]

I regulary, and by regularly, I mean always, use tap hover as I descend and use it for not only the extra tidbit of distance, but primarily for the delay you get from falling from a momentary hover. I find it monstrously valuable to change up your recovery to avoid characters who will try to anticipate your recovery and just gimp you. It also gets you out of tumble which can be helpful. if your opponent knocks you up and often looks to follow up with a full hop u-air or some comparable action, tap hover at the absolute height at which they could hit you with that full hop u-air, and often you can bait your opponent into attacking, allowing you to d-air or move sideways and bair/fair/uair such that you can punished missed attempts. Even if the tap-hover juke doesn't work, and your opponent reads correctly and hits you, you don't lose your DJ. You only lose the ability to hover. This is a pretty freakin' good deal for getting out of bad situations.

 

[StriderAaron360]

What do you guys think about OOS up smash? I've been testing it out, and it covers some nice distance. It could be a good answer for someone that likes to get behind your shield alot. If they spot dodge it out of instinct, it will still get them because of the active frames. It's only bad if they shield it or it isn't spaced right.

 

[MetaKnight0]

What do you guys think about OOS up smash? I've been testing it out, and it covers some nice distance. It could be a good answer for someone that likes to get behind your shield alot. If they spot dodge it out of instinct, it will still get them because of the active frames. It's only bad if they shield it or it isn't spaced right.

it works

for behind shield if they're inside the shield you can just grab

shield up smash is better for other reasons

 

[StriderAaron360]

How do you grab airborne objects? Like Peach's turnip

 

[DrinkingFood]

Press Z, catching the item prevents it from doing the aerial
airdodging works too, but if you don't throw it immediately out of the airdodge AGT style, you'll still go into special fall

 

[Kally Wally]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ4v74stLJ8

So, glide tossing is kinda good.

 

[Jade_Rock55]

How do you do that?

 

[Kally Wally]

Roll and throw an item at the same time. Backward roll, in M2's case, gives a much greater glide.

 

[Bonds]

We can tech chase with a teleport hover cancel nair to regrab, just a thought. It seems fairly consistent

 

[ss118]

We can tech chase with a teleport hover cancel nair to regrab, just a thought. It seems fairly consistent

FC nair doesn't properly lead to anything because you don't know if they land in front or behind. Even if you did without the pop that send them away there isn't enough hitstun to stop a roll or stop certain characters from shining you.

 

[Fenrir]

Been working on more ways to incorporate hover into my gameplay, and found that you can hold jump during the teleport animation and you'll be hovering right when the TP is finished (so long as you haven't double-jumped of course). Seems like it can be handy in some situations.
Edit: Though I guess that was already brought up like 3 posts into this thread. lol

 

[The7thProxy]

I usually just do a basic combo when playing friendlies. I up throw, then I use mewtwos tail and do a back air. As the opponent struggles to catch his ground, I teleport to the ground under him and use my up tilt. Its a simple combo really. When I'm in a tournament match though, I don't really use it. Its a great combo for beginners.

 

[DrinkingFood]

that's only going to work on some certain characters, the7thproxy, depending on their falling speed and weight