The Lab - Mewtwo's Birthplace (Mechanics Thread)

[Kneato]

A little execution heavy, but I like it. It might be better than L cancelling maybe

It is. If my memory serves me right, hover cancelling leaves you with ~4 frames of landing lag. You also save time off of the rise and fall of a short hop.

 

[Jade_Rock55]

What are you inputing exactly to make that happen?Are you short hopping fair then hovering?

 

[StriderAaron360]

What are you inputing exactly to make that happen?Are you short hopping fair then hovering?

To me, it looks like short hop, hover, fair. I was able to do it by the hover cancel can be tricky, but I can do it semi consistently now by short hopping, pressing Y+ down, and immediately letting the stick return to neutral.

 

[Adeveis]

There is a lot of posts here so idk if anyone mentioned this but, I've been using mewtwo's teleport for tech chases and it is soooo cool. Not only do I feel like a total boss for guessing correctly, but at higher percents you can knock them clear off the stage. Sadley mewtwo can't do jack if he teleports to the ground, so instead i do a quick short hop to teleport into nair. nair's knockback is weird to me. sometimes it sends them behind mewtwo, other times they stay infront. Hopefully someone can explain that to me.

 

[ss118]

I press X to jump, and hold down during those jump frames. Move to forward on the control stick, press A, then rotate down and forward to do quick float cancelled fairs. Honestly if I want quick fairs for comboing I just do DJC ones(melee johns), but if I'm pressuring a shield I'll do the float cancelled ones and then dash around behind for a grab or something.

Edit:

There is a lot of posts here so idk if anyone mentioned this but, I've been using mewtwo's teleport for tech chases and it is soooo cool. Not only do I feel like a total boss for guessing correctly, but at higher percents you can knock them clear off the stage. Sadley mewtwo can't do jack if he teleports to the ground, so instead i do a quick short hop to teleport into nair. nair's knockback is weird to me. sometimes it sends them behind mewtwo, other times they stay infront. Hopefully someone can explain that to me.

It just depends on how you move around with the nair and how they DI inside of it. Whatever side of you they are on when the last hit goes off is where you will send them. The easiest way to manipulate this is to send them left hold right during the nair and vice versa.

 

[StriderAaron360]

nair's knockback is weird to me. sometimes it sends them behind mewtwo, other times they stay infront. Hopefully someone can explain that to me.

The "weird knockback" is someone doing smash di to get out of nair, which is mashing the c stick in a direction while being hit.

 

[GeZ]

Can someone explain how to do hover cancelling? I was doing Jump, Hover, Fair which looked like what was happening in the vid, but I just want to be sure I was performing it correctly. Also what utility does this provide besides shield pressure?

 

[StriderAaron360]

Can someone explain how to do hover cancelling? I was doing Jump, Hover, Fair which looked like what was happening in the vid, but I just want to be sure I was performing it correctly. Also what utility does this provide besides shield pressure?

What you're doing sounds about right. It could be used for shield pressure as well as a quick OOS attack. I like this method better than OOS short hop fair to l cancel because "HaCking" is faster.

 

[Shell]

I usually claw while I hover to give me full control over both movement and attack directions.

1) Press & hold jump with right pointer finger
2) Press down on the joystick with your left thumb (let go if you want to continue hovering, hold down if you want to hover cancel an aerial - you can also do down-forward or down-back)
3) Input aerial attack with your right thumb on c-stick
4) If you've held down from #2, you'll land during the aerial with very low lag

If you did a rising FH aerial then you input the aerial attack before pressing down. Make sure you're inputting in the right order and play with the timing until you're getting the fastest possible hover cancel.

Shield pressure is the most common use, but it's also good for edgeguarding with Bair and sometimes Dair / Uair. Short hop teleport hover aerial attack can also be a flashy situational approach tool.

 

[GeZ]

I usually claw while I hover to give me full control over both movement and attack directions.

1) Press & hold jump with right pointer finger
2) Press down on the joystick with your left thumb (let go if you want to continue hovering, hold down if you want to hover cancel an aerial - you can also do down-forward or down-back)
3) Input aerial attack with your right thumb on c-stick
4) If you've held down from #2, you'll land during the aerial with very low lag

If you did a rising FH aerial then you input the aerial attack before pressing down. Make sure you're inputting in the right order and play with the timing until you're getting the fastest possible hover cancel.

Shield pressure is the most common use, but it's also good for edgeguarding with Bair and sometimes Dair / Uair. Short hop teleport hover aerial attack can also be a flashy situational approach tool.

So what stops it from being grabable? Is it faster than grab? Or just fast in general? I've always had one of the triggers set to jump so all of the hover shenanigans are really easy.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Naming Hover canceled aerials "HaCking"?
that's pretty dumb considering that stuff's been around since like... probably 2002 or 2003 or whenever melee peach mains started using it, and it's only ever been called float canceling, or FC'd aerials, etc.

 

[StriderAaron360]

Eh, let it be a personal term for us Mewtwo users lol

 

[Shell]

You prevent the opponent from grabbing you because most of his aerial attacks are between -2 frame disadvantage to +1 frame advantage (Dair, tied for best frame advantage in the game iirc) against a shield when hover canceled.

Most grabs take 7+ frames to come out, which means you're ready to act 5 frames sooner, possibly before they even start the grab. Combine this with the fact that you can do a retreating hover cancel'd aerial attack as mentioned earlier, and you're out of grab range ready to perform another action before their grab can connect.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Eh, let it be a personal term for us Mewtwo users lol

but that's inventing a term just to invent a term, almost as if only to say that you invented a term. It's pointless and redundant.

You prevent the opponent from grabbing you because most of his aerial attacks are between -2 frame disadvantage to +1 frame advantage (Dair, tied for best frame advantage in the game iirc) against a shield when hover canceled.

Most grabs take 7+ frames to come out, which means you're ready to act 5 frames sooner, possibly before they even start the grab. Combine this with the fact that you can do a retreating hover cancel'd aerial attack as mentioned earlier, and you're out of grab range ready to perform another action before their grab can connect.

dair is tied for best frame advantage? +4 on shield, like peach's fair? Or is there something that's +5 that dair is tied with?

 

[Shell]

Yes, +4 tied with FC Peach Fair.

 

[DrinkingFood]

daaaammn I was hoping he's have something neat like that
thanks dood

 

[Shell]

To avoid leading anyone astray I checked these again and they were slightly better than I had recalled.

Full list of disadvantages (-) or advantages (+) vs shield for Hover Canceled Aerial Attacks...

Nair -2
Fair +4
Bair +3 inside, +2 outside
Uair +2 inside, +4 outside
Dair +2 inside, +5 outside

Overall they're pretty comparable to Peach's but sweetspot Dair is the best in the game at +5.

----

EDIT: for comparison, here are Peach's values

Nair +4
Fair +4
Bair +4
Uair +4 to +2
Dair -1

 

[DrinkingFood]

To avoid leading anyone astray I checked these again and they were slightly better than I had recalled.

Full list of disadvantages (-) or advantages (+) vs shield for Hover Canceled Aerial Attacks...

Nair -2
Fair +4
Bair +3 inside, +2 outside
Uair +2 inside, +4 outside
Dair +2 inside, +5 outside

Overall they're pretty comparable to Peach's but sweetspot Dair is the best in the game at +5.

----

EDIT: for comparison, here are Peach's values

Nair +4
Fair +4
Bair +4
Uair +4 to +2
Dair -1

Thanks for the detailed info
When you say inside/outside though
I know, in melee, M2's tail attacks had three hitboxes: tip, middle, base
and the sweetspot, highest knockback, damage and often different angle was either the middle or the base hitbox
is this still the case in P:M, and are the sweetspots placed the same if so?

 

[GeZ]

I always forget that this games grabs come out relatively slow compared to street fighter where grabs are ****ing instant. HCing moves seems more useful since he can essentially but some characters under a rapid spree of aerials and normals trapping them and making them have to guess right to escape. I don't know why but HaCking is kind of growing on me. Wasn't their someone earlier who insisted that Mewtwo's hover should be called hover and not float like Peach's? I guess they're different things in that case, but I think diversifying the name works in this instance because as I said earlier, the tech being used is different than Peach's. The result may be the same, but it's still kinda fair. I like it anyway.

/2cents

 

[xXSciophobiaXx]

to hover cancel an aerial, you must move mewtwo towards the ground while doing a fair (or any aerial) yes?

Also some things I've notice that are probibally worth mentioning:

1.Im pretty sure, and Im like, pretty sure, that you can extend mewtwo's hover by performing an aerial at the very end of his hover. Down air works best because its so lengthy. Just use it right before mewtwo's eyes stop glowing (wear the armoured mewtwo set, makes eyes easier) and continue hover input on control stick. This is kinda like using a aerial on mewtwo's double jump and getting extra height.

2. In terms of grab kill percentages, I essentially believe that whatever kill barrier is closer is the direction that the throw should be done in( for kills alone, not considering followups). Except for FFallers who will be killed by side throws at percents before up throw will.

3. The most effective edge guarding I do is by running off the ledge and hovering below my opponents and rising up doing a u-air.

4. Similarly, by hovering, using an aerial, and carrying your momentum into the very edge of a platform or the stage, you may perform edge-cancels much easier and reliably than with normal momentum manipulating shenanigans.

5. Downthrow near the edge on a character (ffallers) that can't escape into the air can be regrabbed repeatedly (essentially), until they elect to techroll away towards the edge of the stage or land on the ground. If you read correctly, a disable can be implemented to let you quarter charge a downsmash which is lethal on most characters at the edge of stage.

6. if you only use hover for a very short time, you do not use your double jump. This is pretty nice if mewtwo is hit into the air and is falling while the opponent is looking to juggle. Tap hover right above their highest point they can reach with a jump-uair, and if they do bite, you stay above them and you can fastball an aerial and connect with them. If they don't bite, you only have momentarily slowed your descent, and you've maintained your double jump. also seems pretty useful.

 

[teluoborg]

A little fun thing I found out : you can empty HC (hold down + jump and release as soon as the hover starts) then DJC an aerial, allowing you to extend your range or change your direction.


Also people trying to use hacking remind me of 2008 when everyone was screwing around with Brawl and trying to find the coolest name for every """AT""" they found. It was awful so let's not do that again please.

 

[Vale]

Yeah, I vote for HC if people really care about it not being called float cancelling.

 

[didds]

I'm also wondering what people are getting off of confusion. I have a lot of trouble comboing off of it, and use it more often as a mix up tool to snag my opponents sloppy approach and make them afraid to DI towards me off of it on account of Utilt. But in regards to follow ups I don't see what it grants you on most of the cast minus the space animals.


I like confusion> sh or fh(depending on percent, weight) >csb. But i play with scrubs who get caught by anything, so I have no idea how reliable it really may be

This is in reply to GeZ, I clearly don't know what I'm doing

 

[MVP]

sorry, i know this is a dumb question for all who know....

But could someone explain "float Cancel" for me? FC vs SHFLing? Etc. I have a vague idea of what it is and i've read the posts above, but i need someone to explain it to me like i'm 5

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

sorry, i know this is a dumb question for all who know....

But could someone explain "float Cancel" for me? FC vs SHFLing? Etc. I have a vague idea of what it is and i've read the posts above, but i need someone to explain it to me like i'm 5

Float/Hover canceling is done by starting the initial hover animation and quickly canceling it with an aerial. You don't have input any DI, just Hover > Aerial and it will cancel itself. Hover canceling is faster than SHFFL'ing overall. Your hover cancelled aerials also have less ending lag than a SHFFL'd aerial (If you read above you'll see Shell listing the frame advantages for HC'd aerials on shields). Allowing you to apply greater shield pressure and maintain offensive momentum. I find the easiest way to perform HC'd aerials is with 'L' set to jump while using 'A' or 'C-stick' to input your aerial. Need me to add more?...

 

[GeZ]

To add on to what CHILLED said, it's actually pretty easy to do and grants you attacks with high advantage. So for instance if you Hover Cancel Fair, then do jab on the ground, you'll be at enough advantage that jab will beat throw attempts along with a lot of other options.

 

[Jade_Rock55]

You don't have input any DI

That's what I was doing wrong,thanks

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

That's what I was doing wrong,thanks

No problem.

 

[DrinkingFood]

You don't have input any DI

That's what I was doing wrong,thanks

DI only occurs when you get hit, what the **** are you guys even talking about lol

 

[GeZ]

DI only occurs when you get hit, what the **** are you guys even talking about lol

Yeah I was wondering that too. I was hoping it would be explained through the exchange but.... Well, here we are.

 

[MetaKnight0]

i di my l cancel and then afterwards i hover shield into air grab option select into teleport trip guard downtilt

 

[GeZ]

But where's the Focus Attack Dash Cancel into Dash Attack Cancel Up Smash?

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

DI only occurs when you get hit, what the **** are you guys even talking about lol

I know what I'm talking about. Even if you aren't in hitsun technically DI or directional influence or even more simple than that MOVING YOUR CHARACTER. Is all the same ****. -__- Chill DI isn't just a tech guy.

 

[DrinkingFood]

No, that is drifting, not DI. Drifting is moving your character horizontally in the air. DI is influencing what trajectory is applied to your character the frame after hitlag (or during hitlag for SDI). They aren't the same thing.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

No, that is drifting, not DI. Drifting is moving your character horizontally in the air. DI is influencing what trajectory is applied to your character the frame after hitlag (or during hitlag for SDI). They aren't the same thing.

Yes. I know the only time you hear DI is when you hear about *hitstun (not hitlag if you wanna act like this -__-) its the name of the AT.
However I'm not talking about the AT. What I posted states 'DI' as what it literally means, influencing what direction your character travels in or moves in or drifts in or slides in or ice skates in. I honestly don't care.....The guy said it helped him and that's all it was meant for, stop trying to make something out of nothing please. It's annoying. Thanks.

 

[GeZ]

Yes. I know the only time you hear DI is when you hear about *hitstun (not hitlag if you wanna act like this -__-) its the name of the AT.
However I'm not talking about the AT. What I posted states 'DI' as what it literally means, influencing what direction your character travels in or moves in or drifts in or slides in or ice skates in. I honestly don't care.....The guy said it helped him and that's all it was meant for, stop trying to make something out of nothing please. It's annoying. Thanks.

He's just trying to establish a better understanding of what you're trying to get across, and in this instance, change how you phrased it because it was confusing for all involved minus one. I understand that the phrase DI does function for what you're trying to relay in a literal sense, but it's a term that means one specific thing in the smash community, and to use it to relay something other than that one thing muddles the whole process. I think it'd be more convenient to use a different term from now on, just for safety and understanding's sake. Not trying to stir up **** or take sides, just throwing in my two cents.

 

[xXSciophobiaXx]

how high must you be to hover cancel? any height? I still don't get it. I'll head to the lab tomorrow. From what I gather, no specific mention to having to start from the ground. Can you just input control stick down, tap jump… and immediately input an aerial? how would this be any faster? did PMBR code anything to just allow the aerial to finish faster? Maybe Im too tired. need sleep. Goodnight.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

He's just trying to establish a better understanding of what you're trying to get across, and in this instance, change how you phrased it because it was confusing for all involved minus one. I understand that the phrase DI does function for what you're trying to relay in a literal sense, but it's a term that means one specific thing in the smash community, and to use it to relay something other than that one thing muddles the whole process. I think it'd be more convenient to use a different term from now on, just for safety and understanding's sake. Not trying to stir up **** or take sides, just throwing in my two cents.

No. If he was trying to establish a better understanding of what I was trying to get across he wouldn't have said "What the **** are you guys talking about? lol" The only thing he did there was make a little provocative smart *** comment. And if the phrase DI does function for what I'm trying to say in a literal sense or better yet the sense I meant it in, then why are we having this conversation? Maybe I should have just wrote out directional influence....whatever. I do understand what I said could cause some confusion. But when the post wasn't directed toward you in anyway, took care of the question at hand and was over with. You just come and say some **** like that rather than ask a simple question. It was out of place that's all I'm saying. If you're going to speak to me that way. I'm not going to sit content with that.

 

[DrinkingFood]

DI, directional influence, is only ever used in smash to refer to the action immediately after/during hitlag. No, it's not during hitstun. Hitstun is when you can't move while flying/being knocked back. DI has always occurred by then to establish which direction you get knocked back/sent flying. Yes, the words directional and influence put together would technically make sense any time you are influence your direction. But in reference to smash, it is only ever properly used to refer to influencing what happens when you get hit. I'm sorry you are not willing to admit your mistake, but you are using the phrase incorrectly here. Using it that way only serves to cause confusion in the long run for people who want to learn what actual DI is and when it is applicable. I would say I'm sorry you got offended so terribly over my remark pointing out your error in the most joking manner I could stomach, but I'm not, because I am not responsible for your oversensitivity. If my blunt statement of such offends you further, it also proves my point.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

Ok. Not sure what you wrote because I didn't read it but cool story. End of convo. I don't really care anymore...never cared to begin with actually.