The Kirby Matchup Thread

[FreeGamer]

How about Lucas or Marth?

 

[Phan7om]

Idk about Lucas but Marth is definitely just as hard.

 

[Random23]

Marth got more difficult this patch I think. Already a tough matchup, something I have to adapt to and get better at. Any general tips for the MU though from people in terms of approaching?

 

[SazoonTheBoon]

Marth got more difficult this patch I think. Already a tough matchup, something I have to adapt to and get better at. Any general tips for the MU though from people in terms of approaching?

Honestly approaching with crouch works fairly well because kirby can duck underneath the grab and punish it with a pivot uptilt or a grab. Also aside from tipper downair, marth's aerial game is useless. He's basically forced to use dtilt, ftilt, fsmash, jab, downsmash, neutral b, or dancing blade. Once you get going, he's just combo food. He's also got a fairly linear recovery, so he's easier to edge guard than say roy.

tl;dr your duck beats marth and don't give him any room to breath

 

[Random23]

Thanks for the advice, when recovering is it best to always go as high as possible? I'm finding that going low just gets me fsmashed or daired

 

[SazoonTheBoon]

Yeah recovering is hard to do against fire emblem characters cause they can just wait until you commit to an option and swat you away. Though yeah going high is good, but other than that and sweet spotting ledge it's pretty hard to get back. However, if the Marth isn't experienced with the Kirby MU, you could try wasting all your jumps (if you get hit out of cutter you'll lose all of them anyways) to try to bait something out from them then go from there.

 

[FreeGamer]

If you're coming from up high enough, you can Cutter Dash and then use/cancel Stone to get your airdodge back. It's gimmicky, but it can work.

 

[metaXzero]

Okay. So with 3.5, the Link and Marth match-ups are virtually unchanged right? Meaning they remain terrible with your options being duck alot? Dang. I almost wonder if I should just counter-pick these match-ups. Especially now that Kirby's offense got nerfed a bit.

I do like stone letting me KO though.

 

[Random23]

I feel like both matchups are still going to be pretty similar. In those matchups most of the options that were nerfed are options that were pretty bad anyway. Vs both of those characters I try to play extremely aggressive, to deny them their zoning options.

 

[SazoonTheBoon]

Well boomerang is clankable now so that's a plus. Also uptilt at mid percents near the ledge now help more with edgeuarding against marth

 

[metaXzero]

Wasn't it always clankable? I know it beats dash attack now though.

 

[Scaremonger]

Kirby vs Marth is a near even matchup in Melee. I would be surprised if this matchup wasn't in Kirby's favor in PM since Kirby is no longer a ****ty character.

Crouching pretty much wins neutral since the only thing Marth can safely do while you're crouching is downtilt. Higher airspeed is so good for this matchup, since it makes your punishes better, which was the biggest problem in this matchup.

A lot of people don't seem to understand how to deal with disjoints, so Marth can seem like a bad matchup for any character.

Look at the Marth-Puff matchup in Melee. Puff has to stay pretty grounded in this matchup, because Marth is the only character that she cannot directly contest in the air. Kirby is basically the same as Puff, minus rest, except he has a faster running speed, a better wavedash, and a much better dashdance. All of this is really, really key in the marth matchup, because staying grounded and whiff punishing him requires good ground movement. Most people in 2014 consider the marth-puff matchup even in Melee, and you have better ground movement than she does.

You just have to play really patiently, force a mistake out of him, and punish. Yeah, Marth can wall you out, and that sucks, but you have to consider how much endlag all of his moves have. Almost no character can truly directly beat Marth's disjoints, you need to play smarter against him.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Most people in 2014 consider the marth-puff matchup even in Melee

Uh, this is almost entirely due to Rest, and the threat thereof.

Kirby vs Marth is a near even matchup in Melee

I won't call you a liar, but I would love a source for this claim.

 

[Phan7om]

Yeah, Puff Marth is even mainly due to rest, but people need to stop comparing Kirby to Puff like they're the same character. They are similar, I'll give you that, but only really in terms of floaty pink puffballs with 5 jumps. In the Marth matchup's case, Kirby's closer to Peach w/o turnips and dsmash and lighter. Idk what Peach players think about the matchup but I'd say they think its pretty bad for Peach. Yeah we can duck... like... his grab, and thats it.

And in Brawl, I know its a totally different game, Marth was still one of his worst matchups. So saying Marth was only bad for Kirby because he was trash in Melee is kinda irrelevant if it was still bad when Kirby was better.

Im not saying the Matchup is un-winnable or anything, characters like Link, Roy, and MK are worse imo. Learning how to deal with disjoints is the proper way to play the matchup, doesnt make the matchup any easier. Rolling, surprisingly, Ive heard can mess Marth up if you use them in a smart non-predictable way.

So idk, just my 2 cents lol.

 

[SazoonTheBoon]

I heard somewhere it was 60-40 for marth in melee not that I can cite my source at all. I also heard kirby's roll is really good in the marth matchup too

 

[Scaremonger]

I won't call you a liar, but I would love a source for this claim.

And in Brawl, I know its a totally different game, Marth was still one of his worst matchups. So saying Marth was only bad for Kirby because he was trash in Melee is kinda irrelevant if it was still bad when Kirby was better.

In Brawl, there is no ground movement at all, rofl. There's absolutely no way you can make that comparison. In Brawl, there is no dashdancing or wavedashing. Dashing is such a big commitment that walking is the primary method of ground movement in the game. This takes Kirby's biggest strength in the matchup away.

My source for this, where I first heard about it, is from Chu Dat whose Kirby would probably annihilate all of us. Bluezaft, a Texas Marth main, has played with Krazy Kirby Kid (and Triple R) for years and says the matchup is 55:45 in Marth's favor in Melee. There's a reason that everytime you see Kirby win, it's against Marth. Blur vs Mooninite, Ice vs Hack, and now Bluezaft vs Krazy Kirby Kid.

Your uptilt is frame 4 and it's gigantic. Rest is big in the Marth matchup, but you can still kill Marth off of one hit, especially now that you actually have air speed. If Marth gets uptilted at anything other than very low percent, your punishes on him are free. You can just carry him offstage and edgeguard him (dropzone invincible bair is so good vs Marth, and he can't survive it if it hits one time.)

Rest makes Puff hard for Marth, but Puff is also far worse than Kirby on the ground, which is where you need to be vs Marth. Her uptilt and bair are also more than twice as slow.

The reason I compare Puff to Kirby is not because they're pink, lol. It's because the way they punish marth is pretty similar, with uptilt and bair being the main tools of the matchup. Rest is a really harsh punish, but Kirby's bair punishes are probably just as harsh, if not more harsh, than Puff's bairs, now that Kirby actually has airspeed. Without Rest, Kirby's punish game is probably worse, though marginally so since a good marth will be smart enough to not get rested too many times, but he's so much better in neutral since his ground movement and normals are so much better and faster.

 

[Phan7om]

I feel like Marth's lose the Kirby in Melee cuz they dont know it. If a Marth knew the Kirby matchup its freaking brutal. I see your point tho, we have some tools against him that other floaties dont which curves it in our favor.

 

[Scaremonger]

I feel like Marth's lose the Kirby in Melee cuz they dont know it. If a Marth knew the Kirby matchup its freaking brutal. I see your point tho, we have some tools against him that other floaties dont which curves it in our favor.

...Did you not read what I said about Bluezaft? He's been playing Kirbykid for like 12 years, dude. Since 2002. According to him, the matchup is 55:45, and I think it'd be very strange if he "didn't know the matchup" after over a decade.

The idea that [bottom tier character] automatically loses to [top tier character] just because they're bottom tier is a very narrow way of looking at this game. Kirby's moveset happens to work fine against Marth (along with Falcon).

 

[Jinjo64]

That Krazy Kirby Kid match was a friendly....so if a kirby wins a recorded friendly in over 10 years. I don't even. The fact that those matches are famous means something. That every time a kirby in melee gets close or wins. Its famous.

 

[Scaremonger]

That Krazy Kirby Kid match was a friendly....so if a kirby wins a recorded friendly in over 10 years. I don't even. The fact that those matches are famous means something. That every time a kirby in melee gets close or wins. Its famous.

It's not a famous match, rofl. It's a match between 2 people who I know in real life. That's the significance. I was posting video footage of the 2 people in the example I gave. I didn't go look for some random kirby-marth match, I specifically looked to see if Bluezaft and Kirbykid had any recorded footage on youtube so I could link it here.

 

[Phan7om]

Sigh... okay bro, from what I'm reading because Kirby is a lot better in PM the Kirby Marth matchup in PM is possibly in Kirby's favor since it was almost even in Melee to a guy whos played the matchup for years?

And in terms of marths not knowing the matchup, I wasn't talking about your friend I was talking about Ice and Blur.

Im just trying to figure out something, not trying to sound mad or passive aggressive or anything. Just making sure you're not like one of those guys that said Pika Fox is even or in Pikas favor cuz Axe vs SW at Evo.

If Marth isn't that bad of a matchup that's a good thing, one less bad matchup for us.

 

[Frost | Odds]

[Kirby vs Marth stuff]

I'm still highly skeptical, because this would almost certainly mean that Kirby wins the MU in PM; but that's interesting.

It's not generous of me, but I'm also disinclined to trust Marth mains about MUs, heh. Most of the ones I've known (or seen on these boards) have been extremely unrealistic in their assessments of his matchups - one local marth player famously insisted for months that the vs. Sheik MU (in Melee) was unwinnable.

This is probably a result of how difficult and matchup-specific his combo and spacing game is, rather than some kind of statistically freakish moral failing on the part of players who happen to pick that character, but eh

 

[Scaremonger]

...

It's not like I blame you for being skeptical, because it's definitely strange that it ended up that way. I do still believe, though, that it's a very winnable matchup for Kirby and only a slight advantage for Marth. I don't claim to know precisely how the matchup works out in the transition from PM to Melee, but I highly doubt it isn't favorable for Kirby. Marth really didn't change at all, whereas Kirby got many changes that I think are highly relevant to the matchup, such as air speed being buffed, better disjoints, an amazing dash attack, etc.

This is probably a result of how difficult and matchup-specific his combo and spacing game is, rather than some kind of statistically freakish moral failing on the part of players who happen to pick that character, but eh

This is probably a result of how difficult and matchup-specific his combo and spacing game is, rather than some kind of statistically freakish moral failing on the part of players who happen to pick that character, but eh

This is also reasonable. I have, however, heard several Kirby mains explain why they think the matchup isn't so bad, and I think it makes sense.

 

[Frost | Odds]

It's also possible that the Kirby mains aren't accurately reporting the matchup. When I was a melee Bowser main, I considered the MU maybe 60:40 in Marth's favor. I was wildly incorrect, but because I was used to playing much tougher matchups (Falco, Peach, Sheik), the Marth MU really just didn't seem that bad by comparison.

Equally possible is that I'm just wrong and we all suck against Marth, lmao

Either way, I'll definitely make a point of watching some RRR vs marth games and seeing what can be learned.

 

[FreeGamer]

I'd put it somewhere in Martha's favor. Maaaaybe even. If you say Kirby wins, you are simply lying to yourself.

 

[SazoonTheBoon]

I'd put it somewhere in Martha's favor. Maaaaybe even. If you say Kirby wins, you are simply lying to yourself.

Marth's who rely on grab will have a really hard time doing if you just spam duck

 

[SprayTanner]

So what's the deal with the Bowser match up? I cant decide if you should be taking the matchup slowly or just going in hard and comboing it out. His armor keeps getting in the way whenever I try to string something together.

 

[Random23]

Bowser's the only character I play secondaries against, hate playing against that armour, not killing him til high % and dying at 50%

 

[Jinjo64]

Bowser is definitely a hard match up. Try spacing hammer well and when he recovers try up b spiking him from the ledge. As a sheik secondary, I know that Sheik destroyed bowser due to grabs, so a well placed throw can leads to a good combo or edge guard. Also the staple combo against heavies at low percent works too. utilt utilt up smash and then uairs. Don't chase if he can attack before you reach him. Also you can shield his oos option then attack.

MOST OF ALL. On any heavy, don't be heavy on approaching all the time. Heavies have wicked punishes.

 

[FreeGamer]

As someone who uses both characters, I'd say Kirby has to be way more careful than Bowser. Hammer and B-Air are your best friends in that MU, and Inhale can still be helpful despite its nerfs.

 

[Jethroo]

Bowser is one of those matches were you think everything is going just fine and then all of a sudden you are down because you just got killed at Iow %. Inhale gimps are strong in this match though because bowser doesn't have much vertical recover. Another thing is when bowser is on the ledge or going to be on the ledge check his %. If he is below 100% and sees you close enough to edge he will have a hard time resisting using his ledge attack which can be easily shielded and punished take advantage of this.

Also, i haven't had to much trouble with martha's i have played. Bait out martha's attacks with DD and stay crouched. Problem with comboing Martha is his long lasting counters will end those, but if you notice him countering you can easily stop bait one out with a feint and punish.

 

[SprayTanner]

I might actually just go with a secondary for the bowser match, it sounds like too much work to get a decent punishment as kirby.

And with marth usually I just look for a way to bait out one of his moves with end lag and punish when he's recovering. Sometimes it's spacing out kirby's dash/forward cutter so the marth tries to go with a forward smash, dash back, punish, sometimes it's going for an overhead forward cutter that's just above any of his sword arcs into a bair if you end up behind him or dair if you're overhead. All about the mind games. It's definitely a fun match to play with, but it's crappy when kirby messes anything up because one tipper at a moderate percentage and you'll get jacked up pretty bad.

 

[metaXzero]

I feel stupid right now. What exactly do you do to stop Ness from recovering or at least keep a consistent edgeguard? Went to my final weekly for the rest of the year and got manhandled by a Game and Watch and Ness (Ness mainly because he punishes so hard and I don't get how to edgeguard him). Thought I knew the match-ups.

I'm assuming with G&W, I want the bacon right?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Just askin, but name few characters he does great against and some he doesn't. I'm still soul searching for a new character to main along side my mk.

 

[FreeGamer]

Actually, you don't want G&W. He can use your bacon to fill his bucket and give you a nice insta-kill when you're at 30. As for Ness, have you tried hitting his PKT2 with Stone?

 

[metaXzero]

Actually, you don't want G&W. He can use your bacon to fill his bucket and give you a nice insta-kill when you're at 30. As for Ness, have you tried hitting his PKT2 with Stone?

If you are doing SH bacon, I feel like you should be able to punish the bucket and discourage G&W from certain distances. And ultimately, you have nothing to fear as long as you don't give him 3. At worse, you give him 2 and discard the ability till you take a stock. I didn't really get to play with Bacon though because I struggled to just inhale G&W.

Why Stone against Ness? If it doesn't kill, Ness is in a better position to return to the stage. And I get the feeling PKT2 might beat out Stone anyway and kill me.

 

[FreeGamer]

PKT2 is invincible for the beginning of its path, but I would assume you could Inhale him out of the later parts of it.

 

[SazoonTheBoon]

g&w seems like a hard matchup with his large disjoints and projectiles. Also did they increase his tech speed or just his roll speed? If it's just roll you can still probably tech chase him really hard. Also upsmash kills so early it's stupid

 

[Phan7om]

Actually, you don't want G&W. He can use your bacon to fill his bucket and give you a nice insta-kill when you're at 30. As for Ness, have you tried hitting his PKT2 with Stone?

Thats strictly a Melee/Brawl/Smash 4 thing I believe.

@ metaXzero That alone makes bacon a lot better, but it depends on your playstyle if you want it. Kirbyciding is not gonna work (tbh it doesnt work with a lot of characters now), so if you cant mindgame him with inhale on shields, or mixups or anything its useless so bacon would help you out a lot. Kirby can actually Short Hop Triple Bacon. GnW mains told me to use it after Gnw escapes a combo to make it hard for him to get in on you. Also at high %s it makes it a bit easier to land kill moves on him. Just allow the bacon to control space making it easier for you go get in.

As for PKT2, it loses to Dair except for the beginning. If they meteor cancel it with another just follow up with something before he can hit himself with it again. PK Flash tho! A Ness recovering high is a lot tricker to edgeguard, you just gotta punish the landing if they hit the stage, if they sweetspot you just gotta punish the get back onstage attempt. Just look at where the bolt is going to hit him and go to that area.

 

[FreeGamer]

lol so much disrespect if you land PK Flash in that matchup

I can't think of any other situation where you would want that move.