The King of Klones (the Ganon character design thread)

[MagiusNecros]

This is exactly what I was afraid of when I saw this video. These are incredibly weak arguments, but people accept them as definitive proof that Ganondorf has a good moveset simply because it comes from a good youtuber.

Yeah the video doesn't really make a point. Just leaves you where everyone left off. So it's pointless.

 

[the king of murder]

I dont even know that youtuber. I posted that video because I thought it was funny and relevant, that was all. Also, he made a point about why Ganon should get an original moveset.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I dont even know that youtuber. I posted that video because I thought it was funny and relevant, that was all. Also, he made a point about why Ganon should get an original moveset.

He basically covers both stances on why Ganondorf should and should not get a new moveset. He does not present a concise argument for either side. Just restates arguments people on both sides have already used before.

 

[FriendlySpaceDragon@32]

mhm, I am really doubtful if Sakurai really uses that alienating players is a valid excuse. First of all, Sakurai should now EVERYTHING in the crossover deems to become ridicule as long as the game is not canon (duh! Why I even mention crossover?!). As time progresses, even the most ridiculous or unexpected characters like ROB or Duck Hunt become natural. I really afraid that Sakurai is really finding excuse on either no having time on research or no time on creating move set.

 

[Burruni]

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I adore Falcondorf as the being of pure warlock power that he was meant to be since Ocarina. However, let me explain the "game design" stance for no overhaul..

Ganondorf from Ocarina of Time: Dead Man's Volley, A giant punch on the ground that broke apart the floor (one of the most iconic artworks for the game). A being of godly power who brashly fights to conquer all she wishes. Fit this to a tee and felt friggin' amazing, even as a Falcon Clone. He didn't have Dead Man's Volley, so what? He was a being of pure and utter power.
In WW he became a surprisingly agile twin swordsman, and in TP he basically was a more powerful version of Link's skills with dark power.

NOBODY in Smash history has had their moveset overhauled to the extent that people ask for. gave a new Down B, replaced his D-Air with the Mario Tornado. kicks out his reflector and his blaster is more delayed. isn't just a command grab.is the biggest change, and it still felt very natural to his old self, just more effective. He was still a heavyweight brawler, just one that was more human-like in stance and a few moves than just a beast. Dash Attack, F-Smash, F-tilt, B-Air are the only changes I can think of. Got her Up B, F-Smash, and a few aerials changed.

These are all the "major" changes for Smash characters.

 

[FriendlySpaceDragon@32]

But Ganon does not have major playing mechanic change. Instead, it is more on animation. Hyrule Warrior may be is a different genre of game, but Hyrule Warrior displays Ganon's power/ references in other Zelda games practically. Lastly, in crossover game, not all the movesets are going to be original, but a waste of potential chance is still wasted. Then why on earth Pit has a major change in both gameplay mechanic and animation mechanic? Do not tell me because the recent update thing. If the developing team (Sakurai) can make a dead franchise alive, not to mention Pit's look prior the introduction in ssbb is not even close to the original NES. And do not tell me that Zelda does the same on changing the art style. If a character wants to be accurately known to the public, then the promotion is good. There are few people who really pay attention to clone (Lucas and Wolf ARE NOT clones!), also, Roy was a big exception because the clone character introduce in melee, and rarely any western gamers know fire emblem.

 

[MagiusNecros]

It's been a stalemate where Falcondorf has been a thing for 3 games and until Sakurai retires Ganon in Smash will forever be in Captain Falcon's "black shadow".

 

[Shmeckie]

Y'know, I love me some Falcondorf. I do. Ganondorf is so satisfying to play as, especially in Smash 4, for just that raw, visceral brutality that suits him so well. Let's not forget that Ganon has fought differently in every game he's appeared in. From teleporting wizard to swift swordsman to slower and more deliberate, the only thing consistent in how Ganon fights is that he employs raw power. Not even Dead Man's Volley is consistent (he didn't use it in Wind Waker, and only used it in Twilight Princess while possessing Zelda). Falcon's moveset works for Ganondorf; it's basic, bare-handed fighting enhanced with superpowers. Or in Ganon's case, dark magic. Since he was upgraded to Twilight Princess style he got two moves from the same game; his F-tilt boot and the Flame Choke (from the cutscene where he was first introduced. It was the move he killed the Sage of Water with. Same pose and everything), plus he's got a couple unique moves. Ganon in Smash is all about power. You FEEL which Triforce he got. Just one powerful, deadly, satisfying blow for every strike.

The similarities between them at this point can be attributed to Falcon and Ganon using the same fighting style. But their applications are totally different. They're just two masters of MAN-Fu.

But the best part of Falcondorf is the implication his moveset and animations give. The implication that makes him all the more rewarding and badass; the dude is not even trying. He is actively holding back because that's the only way he can compete and make this a fair fight. Look at his down taunt; he pulls out the sword, and as if to say "I don't even need this" scoffs and dismisses it. His most powerful attack? The Warlock Punch? Charges it in his left hand, releases it in a backhand.

Ganon is right-handed.

Even his greatest display of power he'll give you; one that most people simply cannot survive, is still being restrained. Even the devastating, shield-shattering Volcano Kick is a casual display of power, simply charging a meager amount of his power into one foot and casually slamming it down. Even his Final Smash, a more considerable showing of power, is absolutely devastating, and he's only giving you a taste of what he's capable of, changing into a beast and only charging forward once before reverting back. He gives you a small sampling of what he can do and it stuns, buries, and kills you.

He doesn't NEED his sword; no one could compete with him if he had it. He doesn't NEED to shoot magic, these impudent peons can barely handle his own physical strength. Sometimes he offers a taste, a sampling, a meager fraction of his power and these pitiful creatures can't survive it. With this physical strength, if he added onto it his sword skills and magical abilities, he'd be Nightmare Geese levels of broken, for all you KoF fans out there. Be thankful he chooses to employ a similar fighting style to the only opponent in Smash worth his time and energy. It's the only way these other lesser beings can even compete.

And as for the jokes about how he runs, I'd like to point out the way he runs is the proper way you're supposed to run when wearing a suit of heavy armor like Ganon is. Armor like that doesn't allow for much mobility. And, as we've established, he's going easy on you and not simply teleporting to your face or running you down on a summoned demon horse.

 

[Folt]

But Ganon does not have major playing mechanic change. Instead, it is more on animation. Hyrule Warrior may be is a different genre of game, but Hyrule Warrior displays Ganon's power/ references in other Zelda games practically. Lastly, in crossover game, not all the movesets are going to be original, but a waste of potential chance is still wasted. Then why on earth Pit has a major change in both gameplay mechanic and animation mechanic? Do not tell me because the recent update thing. If the developing team (Sakurai) can make a dead franchise alive, not to mention Pit's look prior the introduction in ssbb is not even close to the original NES. And do not tell me that Zelda does the same on changing the art style. If a character wants to be accurately known to the public, then the promotion is good. There are few people who really pay attention to clone (Lucas and Wolf ARE NOT clones!), also, Roy was a big exception because the clone character introduce in melee, and rarely any western gamers know fire emblem.

Actually, he did have a major play mechanic change: He gained custom specials.

Ganondorf from Hyrule Warriors was made to fit a Dynasty Warriors game in the same way that Ganondorf in Smash was made to fit his moveset from Melee in subsequent Smash games: They looked at what he could do in the main series, took what they needed, made original stuff up where they couldn't fit in something from the original, but made sure that what he could do in the spin-off/crossover wouldn't be too far from his roots and/or would fit the character, and discarded the rest.

As far as Ganondorf's Melee appearance goes, he was included because they needed someone with a build similiar to Captain Falcon (so he could have a clone to increase the roster from 18-19 to 25-26), and Ganondorf happened to meet those requirements (on top of being a far more recognizable character than any other character that could meet them). From Brawl onwards, his moveset was changed to be more like the Ganondorf we know, but he's still punching and kicking (enhancing them with dark magic) because that's what he did in his Smash debut (and it's not like he didn't do that in the games he's from either).

Also, as far as Pit goes, his Smash 4 incarnation is basically an evolution of his Brawl self. Only his specials (except his neutral special) and Final Smash have changed on a significant note, and most of them keep the roles of his old specials (but being mostly better at doing those roles). Most of the other changes to Pit are just tweaks.

Roy was included to promote his game in Japan, and he (and Marth) would have stayed in Japan too if playtesters didn't take a liking to them (cutting the western roster down from 25-26 to 23-24). It's a good thing they managed to stay in too, since that allowed the Fire Emblem series to be released overseas.

 

[jahkzheng]

I've always felt that if they were to fundamentally change one move of Ganondorf's to make him more unique and like his character in the games.... it would be making his neutral B into Dead Man's Volley. Rather than the punch, he could have a projectile that he could either quick fire or charge.

His quickfire would be the classic bright energy ball. It would be a bit slow to deploy, perhaps a bit like Samus's uncharged shots. Unlike Samus though, his inputs would be more similar to that of Ike's neutral B. A tap of the B button would release his standard volley. Charging wouldn't be automatic. I imagine the projectile to be about half of FD in reach and be a downward shot when used in the air like Ness's PK fire. It would cover similar areas as wizkick but with slightly more reach and less power while being safer obviously.

Holding the B button down though would start a different animation where he'd lift up his other hand and slowly leave the ground as he built up his giant dark energy spray. Letting go of holding B early would produce a short spray right in front of him for nice shield damage or some hitstun, but very little knockback. Would make it a nice tool to follow up from. However, holding B longer to it's full time - which I imagine to be equivalent to Ike's neutral - would have him produce the full dark energy spray.

Just think of this move in OoT for reference. Not going to go into details since it's overly much to describe how this works. Think the homing and general line of Palutena's Autoretical plus the movement of Ness's PK Thunder combined with Lucario's Aura. And there's five or six of them arching in on one target. Yeah, sounds pretty messy huh?

Each energyball would stun and the next would come and renew the stun. All would hit within a second's time and the knockback would look like how Link reacted in OoT - minimal, but knocking the opponent back and into the ground untechable for massive damage. Think about 40-50%. Shielded, if all projectiles reached their target, it would create intense shield pressure. It would reach a bit further than halfway across FD. If the opponent was out of range, the projectiles would just join and explode at the end of its range. If the opponent moved towards Ganon after the move "locked onto" them, getting hit by one energyball would push the opponent back into the sweetspot. The dark energy above his head during charging would have a hitbox similar to Lucario's protecting him from above and generally the top half of his body. The charge would also draw him off the ground in a short levitation so that his feet would be a relative foot off the ground. This would protect him from being grabbed. He would have invincibility frames during the energy release as well but not during the charge... although it would be difficult to get in on him safely during the charge as he could release it at any second as needed to protect himself. Getting behind him early in the charge would be your best option to punish, but more realistically you'd want to just retreat out of range if you could before he'd release B to catch you. The cool down for Ganon would be significant as well. Less so if he released his charge early for the short spray as he'd barely start to leave the ground, more so for the full charge as he'd lower back onto his feet while his projectiles were flying.

If performed in midair, the dark energy spray charge animation would stall his fall like that of Fox's downB. His dark energy spray would default at a downward angle like Ness's PK fire. If the opponent is airborn, a couple of the energy balls will home in on the opponent and attempt to push them down into the sweetspot. They have a limited "arching" range though so if the opponent was high enough above the move, the opponent would be safe.

---

Anyways, wow, spent more time on this than I expected I would. Everytime I describe this I feel like I add one little thing that wasn't in the description before. It's probably over-engineered frankly and possibly broken. Not sure yet if the charged aspect is too good or too bad yet. The basic uncharged energyball would really add something significant to Ganon's game though... a projectile.

I have many, many, other ideas... like my upB idea inspired by teleporting in Twilight Princess and Pikachu's thunder! But as you can see I can spend a lot of time on just one alone, so we'll leave that to another day~

 

[PhantomShab]

He needs a moveset overhaul more than any other character in Smash. But I've given up hope on Ganondorf ever getting one as long as Sakurai is directing the games. Pretty lame how he couldn't care less about such a huge name in gaming villains. Until Smash get's a new director who won't take the lazy way out, Ganondorf will forever be stuck in clone purgatory.

 

[FriendlySpaceDragon@32]

Still, a moveset from Hyrule Warrior would not too shabby for smash moveset. Hyrule Warrior deliberately combine Ganon's previous incarnations in one set ex: Beast Ganon in some combos, energy orb, power up orb,duel blades, phantom Ganon as special attack, and even Demise's lighting strike. I know Ganon's fighting could have been punching and kicking due to his overall mechanic in smash. But, hack, if Sakurai can have time to make his Kids Icraus and Kirby characters stay true and function well in smash, then why not Ganon?

The reason why I mention Pit's significant change in appearance is that Ganondorf could have do the same. It is just like an analogy by a previous user in smash board, more specifically he uses that analogy on Ridley's exclusion. It is something like a cake does not matter about the size, what is matter is the quality. For Ridley, he does not even have option. But come on, if Ganondorf is a Gerudo overlord Cake, then why makes him a Falcondorf cake? Oh, do not tell me Ganondorf is as badass as ever with Capt. Falcon's moveset. What could be better could be done.

It is kind of subjective of saying fists or swords. The problem is that Ganon's tier list makes falcondorf as a target of deriding. In melee maybe is different because he is mid high tier. What advertise an object advertise is the first hand efficient. To the professionals, it is a different story. To make Ganondorf a good character is to have stay to the core moveset. So, the players who never play Zelda react to Falcondorf would say: "Oh Ganondorf guy? Isn't he sucks?" or we could have a still terrible yet stay to true moveset: "Isn't Ganondorf suck? Wait, he uses sword, magic...... Maybe I should give one more shot and take more research".

The problem is that Ganondorf should have done in certain way, not just a last minute clone. Same vote to Dark Pit and Lucina. Those two characters might still upset some fans if they still retain the clone movesets in the future.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

He needs a moveset overhaul more than any other character in Smash. But I've given up hope on Ganondorf ever getting one as long as Sakurai is directing the games. Pretty lame how he couldn't care less about such a huge name in gaming villains. Until Smash get's a new director who won't take the lazy way out, Ganondorf will forever be stuck in clone purgatory.

*Semi-clone. And sorry but you are wrong about Sakurai not caring. If that was the case Ganon wouldn't have gained a great set of custom specials that improve his game considerably. It's true that Ganon could have used an overhaul but saying that they don't care about him is just horse feces.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Sakurai cares. Just not that much. He's even truer to source material with Sage Sword Scar. Which makes Dorf look worse IMO.

 

[PhantomShab]

*Semi-clone. And sorry but you are wrong about Sakurai not caring. If that was the case Ganon wouldn't have gained a great set of custom specials that improve his game considerably. It's true that Ganon could have used an overhaul but saying that they don't care about him is just horse feces.

I still consider Ganondorf a full clone, not a semi. Tweaking literally a couple of moves won't cut it for me. Also, everybody got custom specials, or if you're Palutena, a whole slew of completely different moves. So it's not like Ganondorf got any special treatment on customs.

Sorry, but Sakurai has done nothing to convince me that he cares about portraying Ganondorf accurately, otherwise he would have done it by now.

 

[Shmeckie]

Ganon's a full clone? So how do I Flame Choke with Captain Falcon? I gotta get me some of that!

 

[MajorMajora]

I feel like aspects of his kit are so iconic it would be a shame to take them away. My idea is:

A: Give him a sword that replaces some moves, but not all. Probably just his smash attacks, some air moves, and extra range on his warlock punch and wizard foot.
B: You know how his side B is a recovery command grab? And how his up B is a recovery command grab too? WHy don't we have it so that his up B is an omnidirectional command grab (probably closer to the choke in functionality), move either his down B or neutral B to his side B, and fill the void with either dead man's volley (Charge up neutral rejective) or a counter.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Ganon's a full clone? So how do I Flame Choke with Captain Falcon? I gotta get me some of that!

If Ganon was a full clone Ganon mains wouldn't have to complain about regular grab range.

That said he is still way too cloney.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I still consider Ganondorf a full clone, not a semi.

Then you would be wrong.

Also, everybody got custom specials, or if you're Palutena, a whole slew of completely different moves. So it's not like Ganondorf got any special treatment on customs.

Sorry, but Sakurai has done nothing to convince me that he cares about portraying Ganondorf accurately, otherwise he would have done it by now.

And among all the custom specials, the general consensus is that Ganondorf was truly blessed in that department. It's something at the very least, and something good. Providing something like this to a character shows that you care, it doesn't happen by accident.
Sakurai may have his reasons to not overhaul Ganondorf but that doesn't mean he hates the guy. That's merely speculation from your part born of a false sense of paranoia.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Well until customs get ruled to be accepted everywhere Ganon will not be able to utilize Dark Fists, WDK, and Warlock Blade.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Well until customs get ruled to be accepted everywhere Ganon will not be able to utilize Dark Fists, WDK, and Warlock Blade.

And when they do, it will be awesome for Customdorf

 

[MagiusNecros]

And when they do, it will be awesome for Customdorf

Let's hope so. Otherwise Pacman will be my Evil's bane.

 

[PhantomShab]

Ganon's a full clone? So how do I Flame Choke with Captain Falcon? I gotta get me some of that!

One special move is slightly different from Falcon's. Wow. As I've said before, the few little differences don't cut it for me.

Then you would be wrong.

If I'm wrong, then why do so many others agree that he's still a clone? Ganondorf isn't a semi-clone the way Wolf or Lucas were, where they had almost all different attacks and specials that worked similarly to who they were cloned from but still functioned substantially differently. Ganondorf just got his side special changed a bit and like, 2 tilts changed. Oh, and his up smash is one kick instead of Falcon's double flip kick. Aside from that, I don't consider that enough to even make him a semi-clone. Maybe a semi-semi-clone, at best.

And among all the custom specials, the general consensus is that Ganondorf was truly blessed in that department. It's something at the very least, and something good. Providing something like this to a character shows that you care, it doesn't happen by accident.

I don't care about his custom moves.

Sakurai may have his reasons to not overhaul Ganondorf but that doesn't mean he hates the guy. That's merely speculation from your part born of a false sense of paranoia.

Sakurai has certainly never done anything to make me think he cares, is all I'm saying.

I'm just really fed up with it now. Ganondorf has always been among my favorite villains in gaming, and I was so excited to find out he was in Melee back when I was a kid. After using him a bit, I was disappointed. I could tell not even a minute into using him that he was just using every single one of Captain Falcon's moves. Even as a kid, I thought that was lame. So I stopped playing as him. Of course, I didn't know it was due to time constraints and Sakurai having no interest in adding him in at all aside from padding out the roster with filler. Come the time Brawl was announced, I was hyped to see what changes Ganondorf would get. Maybe even getting the moveset change he rightfully deserved. But nope, my hopes were dashed again. Smash 4 rolls around, I held on to a little string of hope that maybe, just maybe, the third time would be the charm. I started getting more hopeful when I realized how long Sakurai was taking to show anything on Ganondorf. Even during the months before the 3DS release, still nothing to show on Ganondorf or his moveset. I thought to myself that this was it, Sakurai finally spent time into fully de-cloning Ganondorf. Then those ESRB leaks roll around showing footage of Ganondorf. All I could do was roll my eyes in disgust at Ganondorf pretty much just being a copy/paste of his Brawl self. Nothing changed about him, literally nothing. That was it, my hopes had finally sunk so low they just vanished. I've some to accept that Sakurai just doesn't care about being accurate with Ganondorf. It just irks me even more when he says he tries to be as accurate as possible with the characters, which is BS. I wanna play as the Ganondorf who charges blasts of magic at you and teleports around. The Ganondorf who makes shockwaves by slamming his magic-fueled fist into the ground and makes fireballs swirl around himself. The Ganondorf from the actual Zelda games. I wanna play as that Ganondorf dammit, not Captain Falcon's grandpa.

I'm not even asking for a sword using moveset either. I wanna be somebody who can actually be called a warlock.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

One special move is slightly different from Falcon's. Wow. As I've said before, the few little differences don't cut it for me.


If I'm wrong, then why do so many others agree that he's still a clone? Ganondorf isn't a semi-clone the way Wolf or Lucas were, where they had almost all different attacks and specials that worked similarly to who they were cloned from but still functioned substantially differently. Ganondorf just got his side special changed a bit and like, 2 tilts changed. Oh, and his up smash is one kick instead of Falcon's double flip kick. Aside from that, I don't consider that enough to even make him a semi-clone. Maybe a semi-semi-clone, at best.


I don't care about his custom moves.


Sakurai has certainly never done anything to make me think he cares, is all I'm saying.

I'm just really fed up with it now. Ganondorf has always been among my favorite villains in gaming, and I was so excited to find out he was in Melee back when I was a kid. After using him a bit, I was disappointed. I could tell not even a minute into using him that he was just using every single one of Captain Falcon's moves. Even as a kid, I thought that was lame. So I stopped playing as him. Of course, I didn't know it was due to time constraints and Sakurai having no interest in adding him in at all aside from padding out the roster with filler. Come the time Brawl was announced, I was hyped to see what changes Ganondorf would get. Maybe even getting the moveset change he rightfully deserved. But nope, my hopes were dashed again. Smash 4 rolls around, I held on to a little string of hope that maybe, just maybe, the third time would be the charm. I started getting more hopeful when I realized how long Sakurai was taking to show anything on Ganondorf. Even during the months before the 3DS release, still nothing to show on Ganondorf or his moveset. I thought to myself that this was it, Sakurai finally spent time into fully de-cloning Ganondorf. Then those ESRB leaks roll around showing footage of Ganondorf. All I could do was roll my eyes in disgust at Ganondorf pretty much just being a copy/paste of his Brawl self. Nothing changed about him, literally nothing. That was it, my hopes had finally sunk so low they just vanished. I've some to accept that Sakurai just doesn't care about being accurate with Ganondorf. It just irks me even more when he says he tries to be as accurate as possible with the characters, which is BS. I wanna play as the Ganondorf who charges blasts of magic at you and teleports around. The Ganondorf who makes shockwaves by slamming his magic-fueled fist into the ground and makes fireballs swirl around himself. The Ganondorf from the actual Zelda games. I wanna play as that Ganondorf dammit, not Captain Falcon's grandpa.

I'm not even asking for a sword using moveset either. I wanna be somebody who can actually be called a warlock.

I hear you loud and clear brother! Give this a try; http://smashboards.com/threads/triforce-ganondorf-mod-version-4-1b.356467/

It's undeniably better than anything Sakurai can do (or will do) for Ganondorf. And in future versions the sword moveset will be added back in again as a stance change using down taunt.

 

[PhantomShab]

I hear you loud and clear brother! Give this a try; http://smashboards.com/threads/triforce-ganondorf-mod-version-4-1b.356467/

It's undeniably better than anything Sakurai can do (or will do) for Ganondorf. And in future versions the sword moveset will be added back in again as a stance change using down taunt.

Holy crap. I'd take that Ganondorf over Sakurai's version so fast, it would make my own head spin. lol

It's as close to perfect as you could reasonably expect. I especially love the way they handled teleporting and his projectile smash attack. And that berserker-like sword charge is awesome. They even made his up-tilt not complete garbage. His up-throw and up-air were even changed. Also, that attack that's based off his ground slam move in OoT is a great touch. His jab even reflects. He seems to at least be 90% de-cloned there.

I'd be more than happy if this was how Ganondorf actually was.

 

[jahkzheng]

I hear you loud and clear brother! Give this a try; http://smashboards.com/threads/triforce-ganondorf-mod-version-4-1b.356467/

It's undeniably better than anything Sakurai can do (or will do) for Ganondorf. And in future versions the sword moveset will be added back in again as a stance change using down taunt.

That upB looks like an upB idea I described some time ago here or somewhere else, can't remember. The same idea I eluded to in my last post in this thread in fact.

That idea was for Ganondorf's upB to be a teleporter like shown in this video, but instead of having hitboxes at start and finish like Sheik or Zelda, I imagined it to have a traveling hitbox in transit. Let me explain, and I promise this wont take long.... well, not too too long.

Remember in Twilight Princess when Ganon lifted up his hand toward an imprisoned Zelda before turning into a stream of dark particles that invaded Zelda's body and took her over? Well, that would be the inspiration for his upB. Ganon would vanish into a damaging stream of dark particles that would travel in the direction of his input. Once an input was directed his end location would appear as a small dark cloud/void. The particle stream would fly toward the void and Ganon would burst into existence at the void point.

I like to compare it to Pika's Thunder. If Ganon used this upB straight up, it would look like an inverted Pika Thunder. Instead of a steam of "damaging lightning" appearing from a "cloud" and coming down on Pika's head, we'd see a stream of "damaging particles" materialize and fly out from Ganondorf toward a "small void". I imagine the recovery to have about the same length as Pika's Thunder as well.

The damaging particle stream would of course make Ganon invulnerable as he wouldn't have "substance". Anyone caught in the stream's path would be hit multiple times weakly while being dragged toward the void point where Ganon bursting forth at the end would knock them back in the opposite direction they were dragged. This means that Ganon recovering straight up and catching someone in the stream on the way up would result in the opponent being sent down spiked when Ganon appeared. Likewise, if Ganon launched his stream to the right to recover from the left and an opponent got caught in that stream, the opponent would be dragged right into the hurtbox that would send him left and off the stage.

I like this idea, 1) Because I came up with it, duh, and 2) because it feels really original, has basis in existing Ganon canon, and because it sounds like a damn good recovery that could really screw up anyone pursuing offstage. I imagine to balance things out, it would have a long startup like Fire Fox and the moves direction would be telegraphed by the void point. This would be more to help people avoid it than anything though since I imagine the "burst" at the end would be significant enough that one would not want to be near it. The most inviting counter would be to punish the slow startup, but being late would mean getting caught in the stream and dragged into the burst.

So yeah, that's my upB idea officially posted here.


Oh, and fun fact... Ganon's current upB animation is based off his "leap off the top of the screen" move during the final battle in Twilight Princess.

 

[CannonGanon]

I don't think you get it. It would be just like Ganon to say "screw this" and beat your butt by copying Smash's most iconic character. C'mon. He's GANONDORF. He thinks this stuff's a freaking joke. Yoshi? What is this, some kind of stupid rat? He doesn't NEED a new move set because he's trying to embarrass you; punish you for your idiocy by using a move set that you're slightly familiar with, but with some twists. It just so happens that it works. That's how I see it.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

I don't think you get it. It would be just like Ganon to say "screw this" and beat your butt by copying Smash's most iconic character. C'mon. He's GANONDORF. He thinks this stuff's a freaking joke. Yoshi? What is this, some kind of stupid rat? He doesn't NEED a new move set because he's trying to embarrass you; punish you for your idiocy by using a move set that you're slightly familiar with, but with some twists. It just so happens that it works. That's how I see it.

I hope you're joking?...

People need to stop finding reasons to why Ganon would fight the way he does in smash cause he won't do it... Ganon is cocky, but he isn't so cocky that he would handicap himself to the level he is in smash. He would want to prove and show everyone how powerful he actually is and crush their spirit just by knowing what they are about to face. Instead we have a complete mockery of the character that moves like a grandpa (although moves lighting fast in his games), as cocky as he might be he wouldn't want to lose and be made fun of, but that's the case in smash he is a complete joke and no one is scared to face him. Even right down to his design in smash 4 is horrible! Really ugly looking... He looked perfect in Brawl idk why they changed him... Sakurai is a complete fool! and people need to stop defending his bad decisions. Praise is due when it's due, but in Ganondorf's case heavy criticism is due.

This is coming form someone who DOES enjoy smash Ganon and how he plays. But still there is major room for improvement.
Just take the Triforce mod for PM as an example; it keeps the "feel" of smash Ganon but improves/declones it to a point where he is very much unique. He "feels" the same; hard hitting magic infused Warlock BUT 1- he is good, and 2- he is unique. And most of all; if Sakuari gave us that movest in Brawl/Smash4 everyone would've been happy. Melee Ganondorf mains and everyone getting introduced to the series (of course some might be upset but the majority would be happy and would most likely come to enjoy it as well) You can enjoy the moveset all you want the point still stands that objectively; Ganondorf is represented horribly! And should be updated.

 

[Folt]

Fighting all the Smash battles in the world isn't gonna get him near the Triforce so he probably does not bother with the serious business.

Serious Answer: Smash Ganondorf is Smash Ganondorf. He doesn't need a reason to fight the way he does.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Fighting all the Smash battles in the world isn't gonna get him near the Triforce so he probably does not bother with the serious business.

Serious Answer: Smash Ganondorf is Smash Ganondorf. He doesn't need a reason to fight the way he does.

He'll need a reason to explain why he runs the way he does. Even Bowser brought his I'M GONNA GET YA BERSERKER DASH

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Fighting all the Smash battles in the world isn't gonna get him near the Triforce so he probably does not bother with the serious business.

Serious Answer: Smash Ganondorf is Smash Ganondorf. He doesn't need a reason to fight the way he does.

No but the head developer/director sure does... And any answer he will give us is complete BS since he must know how horribly designed smash Ganon is. Heck even if he was bad as an original character that would be forgivable. But this grandpa-dorf is just shameful... how can anyone defend this and justify why he fight the way he does is beyond me. you can like to play has him but don't delude your self to think the way he fight/the way he was designed actually makes sense. Cause it doesn't, Period.

 

[MagiusNecros]

The cop out justification is he used thing once in Game A therefore it works.

 

[Folt]

No but the head developer/director sure does... And any answer he will give us is complete BS since he must know how horribly designed smash Ganon is. Heck even if he was bad as an original character that would be forgivable. But this grandpa-dorf is just shameful... how can anyone defend this and justify why he fight the way he does is beyond me. you can like to play has him but don't delude your self to think the way he fight/the way he was designed actually makes sense. Cause it doesn't, Period.

Because it makes sense for this Ganondorf.

(And also because it's cool.)

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Because it makes sense for this Ganondorf.

(And also because it's cool.)

What does that even mean? "this Ganondorf" there is only 1 Ganondorf, the OoT one followed by WW and TP Ganondorf depending on the time line but they are all one and the same person.

Last time I checked "that Ganondorf" didn't fight or move the way he does in Smash. Also going by that logic let's give Marth a machine gun and say "it fits this Marth".... No it doesn't!

Also; I'm pretty sure a cannon Ganondorf move set would be a heck of a lot "cooler" than his current move set. Just look at the PM mod made by 1 person! (a very talented one but still) Sakurai and his "yes men" (aka - Bandai Namco) should be ashamed for having a modder make a better, uniquer and "cooler" Ganondorf than he/they ever did.

Ganon can retain all the things that make him lovable and cool in a unique and cannon move set. he just needs to let the player feel powerful. Unfortunately, smash Ganon doesn't even do that well/right. Just try the Triforce Ganon mod and tell me that's worse than Smash Ganon... any one that looks at this issue objectively can see that he is designed badly and is a mockery of what he should/can be. Stop defending this poor character design. Sakurai deserves praise when it's due and for many things he does, but many things (like Ganondorf) deserve criticism. People need to stop sucking up to him and defending him like he is the 2nd coming, the guy makes bad decisions (including shunning the competitive Smash community that are very passionate about these games).

As you all see I'm very upset about this issue as Ganondorf is my favorite video game character ever! And to have him be displayed in such an atrocious and embarrassing manner saddens me deeply. I truly hope someone else directs the next Smash and makes better decisions about Ganondorf (and the game in general, as Smash 4 became very boring for me after 2 weeks...), as Sakurai is so "full of hot air" he cannot see past his own ego and hubris.

I said enough and I have no intent of insulting anyone if I did, I also believe people should be entitled to their opinions and likes. If you like Smash "Ganon" more power to you. But just don't try and defend that his moveset makes sense or is in any shape or form accurately portrays his character cause you'll be %100 objectively wrong. I will be leaving now as I said all there could be said on this issue. Farewell...

 

[PhantomShab]

C'mon. He's GANONDORF.

Precisely the reason why his treatment in Smash is an injustice.

Also; I'm pretty sure a cannon Ganondorf move set would be a heck of a lot "cooler" than his current move set. Just look at the PM mod made by 1 person! (a very talented one but still) Sakurai and his "yes men" (aka - Bandai Namco) should be ashamed for having a modder make a better, uniquer and "cooler" Ganondorf than he/they ever did.

What's sad is that making a better Ganondorf moveset than Sakurai doesn't even require much effort, since Sakurai puts virtually none into his. Anybody with programming know-how like that Triforce Ganondorf modder can make a better Ganondorf than Sakurai and his staff of professional game programmers. And it's all because they actually care. GG Sakurai.

I truly hope someone else directs the next Smash and makes better decisions about Ganondorf

That's probably the worst part, that we'll have to wait who-knows-how many years for the next Smash Bros just for yet another 1/10,000,000 chance of Ganondorf's clone moveset finally being no more. Well, maybe not "we", since I won't have any hopes whatsoever.

 

[jahkzheng]

I'll be honest. I don't much care that Ganondorf is the way he is in Smash. I still enjoy playing as him. Yeah, there's lots of things that could be done better and it's fun to think about how awesome he could be. Same as it's awesome to think about some character not in Smash, being in Smash. At the end of the day, it's daydreaming. Of course, I have nothing against daydreaming. As you can see from this thread, I really do enjoy speculating and discussing these things. But when I think about this game, I'd rather think about what I like and enjoy about what actually exists, rather than think about something that doesn't exist that I wish I could enjoy and getting mad that I can't. And yes, there's mods for some of that, but I don't feel like getting my Wii set back up to play a mod by myself when I can play the new Smash with my friends right now.

Basically, of course Sakurai could've done more with Ganon. That's never ever been in doubt. And it's disappointing that more hasn't been done to make him more original and true to his character. But the fact that he is the way he is, isn't keeping me away from playing him. I enjoy playing as Ganon more than ever in fact. I can't be too frustrated. I mean, I could try... but it would just be a waste of energy. It's more fun to have fun... astonishing, right?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Am just here, patiently waiting for the day where Ganondorf Wizard Foots Link in the face in The Legend of Zelda.

 

[CannonGanon]

I hope you're joking?...

People need to stop finding reasons to why Ganon would fight the way he does in smash cause he won't do it... Ganon is cocky, but he isn't so cocky that he would handicap himself to the level he is in smash. He would want to prove and show everyone how powerful he actually is and crush their spirit just by knowing what they are about to face. Instead we have a complete mockery of the character that moves like a grandpa (although moves lighting fast in his games), as cocky as he might be he wouldn't want to lose and be made fun of, but that's the case in smash he is a complete joke and no one is scared to face him. Even right down to his design in smash 4 is horrible! Really ugly looking... He looked perfect in Brawl idk why they changed him... Sakurai is a complete fool! and people need to stop defending his bad decisions. Praise is due when it's due, but in Ganondorf's case heavy criticism is due.

This is coming form someone who DOES enjoy smash Ganon and how he plays. But still there is major room for improvement.
Just take the Triforce mod for PM as an example; it keeps the "feel" of smash Ganon but improves/declones it to a point where he is very much unique. He "feels" the same; hard hitting magic infused Warlock BUT 1- he is good, and 2- he is unique. And most of all; if Sakuari gave us that movest in Brawl/Smash4 everyone would've been happy. Melee Ganondorf mains and everyone getting introduced to the series (of course some might be upset but the majority would be happy and would most likely come to enjoy it as well) You can enjoy the moveset all you want the point still stands that objectively; Ganondorf is represented horribly! And should be updated.

I see your point, sir. Well made. There was actually a person that always said that they should include a certain character, I can't remember the name of the guy, but he's from F-Zero and uses shadow. What if we gave Ganon's move set to that guy, and gave Ganon a new moveset so that old Ganon players wouldn't be totally left in the dark? Of course, that's far fetched seeing as how Sakura doesn't want to do anything more with the game.

 

[Folt]

What does that even mean? "this Ganondorf" there is only 1 Ganondorf, the OoT one followed by WW and TP Ganondorf depending on the time line but they are all one and the same person.

Last time I checked "that Ganondorf" didn't fight or move the way he does in Smash. Also going by that logic let's give Marth a machine gun and say "it fits this Marth".... No it doesn't!

Also; I'm pretty sure a cannon Ganondorf move set would be a heck of a lot "cooler" than his current move set. Just look at the PM mod made by 1 person! (a very talented one but still) Sakurai and his "yes men" (aka - Bandai Namco) should be ashamed for having a modder make a better, uniquer and "cooler" Ganondorf than he/they ever did.

Ganon can retain all the things that make him lovable and cool in a unique and cannon move set. he just needs to let the player feel powerful. Unfortunately, smash Ganon doesn't even do that well/right. Just try the Triforce Ganon mod and tell me that's worse than Smash Ganon... any one that looks at this issue objectively can see that he is designed badly and is a mockery of what he should/can be. Stop defending this poor character design. Sakurai deserves praise when it's due and for many things he does, but many things (like Ganondorf) deserve criticism. People need to stop sucking up to him and defending him like he is the 2nd coming, the guy makes bad decisions (including shunning the competitive Smash community that are very passionate about these games).

As you all see I'm very upset about this issue as Ganondorf is my favorite video game character ever! And to have him be displayed in such an atrocious and embarrassing manner saddens me deeply. I truly hope someone else directs the next Smash and makes better decisions about Ganondorf (and the game in general, as Smash 4 became very boring for me after 2 weeks...), as Sakurai is so "full of hot air" he cannot see past his own ego and hubris.

I said enough and I have no intent of insulting anyone if I did, I also believe people should be entitled to their opinions and likes. If you like Smash "Ganon" more power to you. But just don't try and defend that his moveset makes sense or is in any shape or form accurately portrays his character cause you'll be %100 objectively wrong. I will be leaving now as I said all there could be said on this issue. Farewell...

The timeline split means there's technically three Ganondorfs running around, one defeated his Hero of Time and became Ganon permanently, one stayed as Ganondorf and got stabbed in the face with the Master Sword and buried under the sea, and the last one got stabbed with the Master Sword on the Eldin Plains... and then a new Ganondorf took his place in Four Swords Adventures.

And then there's HW!Ganondorf who's basically on another alternate timeline where battles were won through armies and strong generals.

Smash!Ganondorf, due to the way Smash is set up, is basically attributed many of these things, but is still different from the Zelda Ganondorfs. You could say "there's only one Ganondorf in Zelda (technically yes and no) and ergo that's why he shouldn't fight like he does" but no Zelda Ganondorfs would ever fight in battles for the heck of it... or ever join the heroes in kicking some Subspace ass for that matter.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Sakurai seems to believe there are multiple Ganon's.