The initial Culture shock of Kirby.

[Sky`]

Here's another question I pose.

Kirby seems to be doing well right now. And when I beat people if by the slightest margin, their john is always, "I don' tknow the kirby matchup." To some degree, I can feel for them, but...

Well, do you guys think that Kirby will get lower on the tier list when the initial culture shock of kirby wears off? (When people start knowing the matchup.)

Or do you think it's been long enough, and at higher levels of play, knowing the matchup at this time should be expected?

Thoughts?

 

[fromundaman]

This seems, to me at least, like a very circular question. If people knew the matchup better, yeah maybe Kirby would go down a little bit, BUT, for people to start learning the matchup, I think Kirby would have to rise on the tier list. People generally don't bother learning higher character matchups so much.

Then again, we aren't exactly low tier. Most people I play seem to know at least a minimum on the matchups, though depending on the character, I tend to know it much better.

I guess it just depends on who you're playing. The Kirby matchup isn't, in all actuality, all that complicated for most characters. We aren't exactly a character with trillions of complex ATs to learn.

To tell the truth though (yeah, I know, I just keep going and going...), it's their fault if they don't know the matchup. Your best advantage in any match is knowledge of the matchup you're playing.

 

[DFat2]

Here's another question I pose.

Kirby seems to be doing well right now. And when I beat people if by the slightest margin, their john is always, "I don' tknow the kirby matchup." To some degree, I can feel for them, but...

Well, do you guys think that Kirby will get lower on the tier list when the initial culture shock of kirby wears off? (When people start knowing the matchup.)

Or do you think it's been long enough, and at higher levels of play, knowing the matchup at this time should be expected?

Thoughts?

I can't see how some one could John not knowing how to fight Kirby.

A John is a John. You shouldn't ask if a John might be right. If he lost to your Kirby, it was probably because he didn't expect it, which is good. It means you play a different/unpredictable/good Kirby.

And Kirby's game isn't all that complex. It's not like he has some serious AT's that need to be countered and blah blah blah.

Next time you hear that phrase, answer back simply:

No Johns Son

 

[A1lion835]

It's not like he has some serious AT's that need to be countered and blah blah blah.

You're all wrong. He has an extremely awesome AT. It's called "foot".

I agree with fromundaman and Fat1. I mean, if I lose to a mk, is it right for me to say "Well I haven't discovered some AT which makes mk less broken"? Of course not. You have to live with it.

 

[Sean31]

I think that the more people learn about Kirby matchups, the higher he'll rise, because people will realize that in the metagame, he can be an exceptionally obnoxious character to fight.
Also, his foot. Amazing foot.

 

[fromundaman]

Actually, I personally find Kirby to be a fairly easy character to fight against, but then again, that's also probably because I know the character fairly well.

Don't get me wrong, a good Kirby is still going to be a good Kirby, but a character like Kirby or MK that I know really well will always be easier for me than say, Olimar, whom I know very little about and have very little experience playing/playing against.

 

[T-nuts]

foot rules!

 

[fromundaman]

Stop spamming the foot! It's so cheap!

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

hey thats my john you cant steal that.

 

[A1lion835]

I only lost to that kirby because he spams foot. Seriously, foot>arrows! His foot beats almost every projectile in the game, and the ones it doesn't beat it catches. >_>

 

[fromundaman]

Sadly, foot never beats grounded SL... *sobs*

 

[TwilightKirby]

lol sky they are just johnning don't pay attention to them.

And no, in socal I play some of the same people a lot and how much they know the matchup doesn't make that much of a difference.

Also isn't peach an even more obscure matchup than kirby? lol

 

[fromundaman]

lol sky they are just johnning don't pay attention to them.

And no, in socal I play some of the same people a lot and how much they know the matchup doesn't make that much of a difference.

Also isn't peach an even more obscure matchup than kirby? lol

I bet it made a difference when they first started playing you and DIDN'T know the matchup...

 

[lucy!JOE!]

as they get better, so do us kirby users will be right behind them with a hammer
gooo gooo g' joob :D

 

[TwilightKirby]

To be honest, what matters much more is how quickly a person learns. For some people, if they don't know the matchup then they do really poorly against me. But in general, the best players won't fall for the same trick over and over. So I mainly just gauge how quick of a learner my opponent is and decide how often I should mix things up.

Generally if they are a slow learner, it doesn't matter much whether they know the matchup or not, cause I'm going to change my playstyle and they won't catch on quickly enough. If they learn things quickly, then it doesn't really matter that they aren't used to the character as they will catch on to what is punishing them and what they can punish and we will both frequently change styles.

Basically, it really depends on the player. Though to be honest, it seems like the less even a matchup is, that knowing the matchup more can push that matchup more towards where it is supposed to be. What I mean is, when I play a marth who has never played kirby, I can beat them because they aren't used to the spacing and moveset etc... But as they learn, they figure out what they can do to take away most of my options and how to not be punished by me.

However even in the less neutral matchups, I still find how quickly someone learns has a much larger impact than matchup knowledge.

 

[choice_brawler]

I bet it made a difference when they first started playing you and DIDN'T know the matchup...

Especially when you started using foot.

Seriously, Sky, a john is a john is a john. No matter what the words are they = john. Kirby wont go lower on the tier list cuz we're here. And we'll discover that AT that makes MK look pansy. Maybe like, someway to summon the warpstar.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ ROFL, Sky mains Kirby?!

Back on topic: This happen when I played my sixth Brawl tourney, where people are use to Meta Knight and not Kirby. Almost the same thing happen last tourney when some people wasn't use to fighting Ness, but this is Kirby were talking about, lol. But if they keep practicing with other good Kirby mainers, then it's going to be trouble for good Kirby mains not to swich they character. ☆

 

[Asdioh]

Here's another question I pose.

Kirby seems to be doing well right now. And when I beat people if by the slightest margin, their john is always, "I don' tknow the kirby matchup." To some degree, I can feel for them, but...

Well, do you guys think that Kirby will get lower on the tier list when the initial culture shock of kirby wears off? (When people start knowing the matchup.)

Or do you think it's been long enough, and at higher levels of play, knowing the matchup at this time should be expected?

Thoughts?

The biggest advantage a Kirby can have is an opponent who does not know how to deal with him. If he knows how to escape the throw combos that were formerly thought to be inescapable, then you need to realize that quickly and adapt as such. In my opinion, Kirby will eventually go down on the tier list a little bit as time goes on, but he will always remain a very viable tournament option.

I pretty much stand by that. Kirby is good, and he's better when your opponent doesn't know what to do, though I think Kirby is a pretty straightforward character.

I mean, if I find out my next opponent is a Kirby, that's one of those characters that I think to myself "Yes!!" mostly because I know the matchup so well, but also partly because he's one of those characters that can't really...overwhelm me, you know? He doesn't have any total bull**** stage control/insane, hard-hitting combos/ridiculously easy to land KO moves. Kirby is basically a straightforward fighter, with a few situational tricks up his sleeve.


As for "should people know the matchup by now," I guess it depends on where the person lives. If you live near Chudat, and play him often, you probably won't have trouble against Kirbys. If your area specializes in other characters, and you've never heard of a Kirby placing high at a tournament, then you probably won't have much practice against Kirby.

I think most people should know how to fight him by now... like I said, he's pretty straightforward. Even an average player should know about his grab game, and his Kirbycide, and they should know how to avoid it.

And if your opponent DOES know how to fight Kirby really well, take them to some stage they are absolutely not expecting

Spoiler

like Brinstar

and proceed to own them

 

[A1lion835]

Asdioh. I'm reading your post.

I read "take them to some stage they are absolutely not expecting" and automatically know it's brinstar.

 

[fromundaman]

To be honest, what matters much more is how quickly a person learns. For some people, if they don't know the matchup then they do really poorly against me. But in general, the best players won't fall for the same trick over and over. So I mainly just gauge how quick of a learner my opponent is and decide how often I should mix things up.

Generally if they are a slow learner, it doesn't matter much whether they know the matchup or not, cause I'm going to change my playstyle and they won't catch on quickly enough. If they learn things quickly, then it doesn't really matter that they aren't used to the character as they will catch on to what is punishing them and what they can punish and we will both frequently change styles.

Basically, it really depends on the player. Though to be honest, it seems like the less even a matchup is, that knowing the matchup more can push that matchup more towards where it is supposed to be. What I mean is, when I play a marth who has never played kirby, I can beat them because they aren't used to the spacing and moveset etc... But as they learn, they figure out what they can do to take away most of my options and how to not be punished by me.

However even in the less neutral matchups, I still find how quickly someone learns has a much larger impact than matchup knowledge.

Very well said!

He doesn't have any total bull**** stage control/insane, hard-hitting combos/ridiculously easy to land KO moves. Kirby is basically a straightforward fighter, with a few situational tricks up his sleeve.

I take offense to part of that statement. We can to combo really well, and Fsmash is, in my opinion, one of the best killing moves in this game (note how I said 'one of'), and isn't all that complicated to land, especially in certain matchups.

 

[Asdioh]

Kirby's combos aren't insane and hard-hitting. They are also not really combos, but strings. Olimar and Peach can get me to like 50% in 3 hits. I can hit someone 4-5 times with Kirby and they're only at 30-35%.

Snake's Ftilt does 21% and pwns no matter what % your opponent is at. Kirby's Fthrow->Uair does 18%, and only works at 0%, and doesn't even work against some characters. You know what I mean? >_>

Fsmash is by no means ridiculously easy to land. By itself, it's stupidly easy to see coming, shield, and punish. Dair->fsmash and dtilt->fsmash are better I guess, I need to actually do that more. :[

Snake's uptilt, Meta Knight's Shuttle Loop, THOSE are ridiculously easy to land. Marth's Dolphin Slash (out of shield) is a great KO move. Falco's chaingrab->spike is stupidly easy to hit with against some characters. Olimar's....grabs....yeah, I don't need to elaborate. Dedede's uptilt is pretty easy.

Kirby's easiest KO move to land is Bair, and that doesn't work until higher %, and if it's fresh, which it usually isn't because it's a staple move. Kirby's BEST KO move is of course Fsmash, and it's a helluvalot easier to punish than some of the KO moves I mentioned above for the other characters.

I'm not saying Kirby's bad, but I stand by what I said:

He doesn't have any total bull**** stage control/insane, hard-hitting combos/ridiculously easy to land KO moves. Kirby is basically a straightforward fighter, with a few situational tricks up his sleeve.

 

[platiepoos]

I agree, Kirby is an incredibly straightforward character, unlike Snake who seems to ave a new AT every day. Kirby has very predictable approaches, and his grab comboes are usually gone to length to be avoided at the begginning of a stock. Other characters are also uncommon enough to be weird to fight, (for me it's Sonic) but even so, they are still at the bottom of the tier list. So although his unpredictability is an asset, it isn't so good that it will hinder him if it is lost. Some characters aren't as lucky, just look at Squirtle. Edit (post below): Haha, banned 6 points

 

[ssbbIkemaster]

Here's another question I pose.

Kirby seems to be doing well right now. And when I beat people if by the slightest margin, their john is always, "I don' tknow the kirby matchup." To some degree, I can feel for them, but...

Well, do you guys think that Kirby will get lower on the tier list when the initial culture shock of kirby wears off? (When people start knowing the matchup.)

Or do you think it's been long enough, and at higher levels of play, knowing the matchup at this time should be expected?

Thoughts?

LInkin Park ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AND PWNS ALL

 

[Falconv1.0]

You know first thing Sky said after we played a pretty good match in tourney was "This *****'s kirby has big *** feet"!

 

[fromundaman]

Kirby's combos aren't insane and hard-hitting. They are also not really combos, but strings. Olimar and Peach can get me to like 50% in 3 hits. I can hit someone 4-5 times with Kirby and they're only at 30-35%.

Snake's Ftilt does 21% and pwns no matter what % your opponent is at. Kirby's Fthrow->Uair does 18%, and only works at 0%, and doesn't even work against some characters. You know what I mean? >_>

Fsmash is by no means ridiculously easy to land. By itself, it's stupidly easy to see coming, shield, and punish. Dair->fsmash and dtilt->fsmash are better I guess, I need to actually do that more. :[

Snake's uptilt, Meta Knight's Shuttle Loop, THOSE are ridiculously easy to land. Marth's Dolphin Slash (out of shield) is a great KO move. Falco's chaingrab->spike is stupidly easy to hit with against some characters. Olimar's....grabs....yeah, I don't need to elaborate. Dedede's uptilt is pretty easy.

Kirby's easiest KO move to land is Bair, and that doesn't work until higher %, and if it's fresh, which it usually isn't because it's a staple move. Kirby's BEST KO move is of course Fsmash, and it's a helluvalot easier to punish than some of the KO moves I mentioned above for the other characters.

I'm not saying Kirby's bad, but I stand by what I said:

No, he doesn't really have staple combos that are guaranteed to get you to high percents, but few characters do. For example, a lot of characters will NOT get comboed to 50% from Peach if they have good OoS options or great DI. Mario's Utilt chain to Uair chain isn't guaranteed on everyone, or even guaranteed at all either. However, these things USUALLY work and USUALLY tack on a good 50% or more.
Kirby has that too, though they are much less concrete (He has the Gonzo combo (which, if after the 2 Bairs you add a Ftilt, which usually works, you can get them to about 50%), but other than that it's more of a 'play it by ear' character.). We can Dthrow chase, combo out of Dthrow, combo out of Fthrow, combo out of Utilt, WoP, combo out of Dair and Fair, juggle with Uair, combo with a ACed Nair. Yeah, very few, if any, of the ones I just mentioned will tack on 50%, but guess what, there are a LOT of options. We aren't quite as limited in our combo abilities as a lot of other characters. If I see Peach start to hover right above my head, I know a Dair to Uair or FFed Fair followed by slaps are coming. I see Mario Dthrow, I know that there's going to be a Uair chase. With Kirby I don't always know what's coming, because he has a lot more combo options.

Also, for the KO options, yeah, you're right, they aren't as easy to land as some of the other ones, as they are easy to see coming BY THEMSELVES. HOWEVER, they shouldn't just be randomly thrown out by themselves just for the hell of it (though I have made that work before too, I think just because the opponent didn't think I'd actually keep using it so much... I crossed YI using it and hit them with it when I reached them. It was really kind of ********. They thought it was an advanced mindgame. I was just doing it for the hell of it.). Our Fsmash powers through a LOT of other moves (like Snake's Ftilt, or at least the first hit, and G&W's turtle, though maybe with better spacing the G&W's I face could beat it.), which is HOW we should get our kills (oh, and fun note, at a certain angle, our Bair does beat Snake Utilt, and I'm guessing we can't be the only ones, so it may not be AS easy to land as implied. I did it in the tourny on Saturday.). Also, our Fsmash has HUGE range and lasts a hell of a long time, which makes it good for punishing spot dodges.
On top of that, it combos really well with Dair, jab, Fair, Nair, and to a certain extent grab releases.

Finally, our aerial hammer is excellent at punishing air dodges.

I know you're not saying he's bad, but I still disagree with what you said.

 

[Asdioh]

and G&W's turtle, though maybe with better spacing the G&W's I face could beat it.), which is HOW we should get our kills (oh, and fun note, at a certain angle, our Bair does beat Snake Utilt, and I'm guessing we can't be the only ones, so it may not be AS easy to land as implied. I did it in the tourny on Saturday.)

Fsmash does NOT beat G&W's Bair.

An example of how most Kirby Bair vs. Snake Uptilt encounters will end up:

 

[fromundaman]

Fsmash does NOT beat G&W's Bair.

An example of how most Kirby Bair vs. Snake Uptilt encounters will end up:

I beat the turtle yesterday pretty consistently, though I don't know if that's because he spaced it badly or not, because that did seem strange to me.

As for the Utilt, I did it against Nope actually. He was about at that same position but I was Bairing so that the end of my hitbox was just below the second Z of Fuzz in that picture. I haven't tried to reproduce it since, nor do I know if I could, but I did manage to have it happen.

 

[Asdioh]

Well, I'll start by saying Snake's utilt is going to be hard to beat no matter what.

In this case, the Kirby's Bair was probably a "I hope you walk towards me as I space Bairs against the air" that got hit by the retardedly broken hitbox of Uptilt. I'm guessing Kirby's foot is a "hurtbox" and the invisible uptilt isn't, so the invisible hitbox hit close to the tip of Kirby's foot, meaning Snake hit Kirby even though Kirby's main body was reaaallly far away.

Now, if the Bair you're going for is "I'm going to Bair right on top of you" then maybe it can beat uptilt, but Snake can just shieldgrab you, or shield and punish. :/

 

[t!MmY]

I agree with everything Asdioh said. Everything.

(Except this)

Dair->fsmash

I go with D-air > Grab because I think their instinctive reaction to the D-air is usually a shield, which blocks out the F-smash. The only time I go for a D-air to F-smash is if I see that my D-air has forced a trip on them, or has launched them into the air as it does rarely.

The way I see things is that once people learn to play against Kirby, the fight gets much harder for Kirby. This is because DI'ing out of his combos reduces his max damage to about 18% (F-throw to U-air, or B-air to U-tilt, etc). Once Kirby is stripped of his combos, he becomes a much weaker fighter since he lacks something that he can spam, because compared to Falco's lasers, Snake's tilts, Marth & ROBs everything, etc, Kirby's B-air doesn't really compare. What the Kirby player has to fall back on is outsmarting his opponent.

Landing one of Kirby's KO moves becomes increasingly difficult at higher levels of play (and on those who are familiar with the Kirby matchup) because they're all easy to punish. If someone doesn't leave themself completely open to getting hit by a F-smash, Stone, or Hammer, Kirby is going to get punished. While Kirby's F-smash is great, it's far less effective to use against a cautious opponent who is watching you closely than KO moves like Snake's U-tilt, Meta Knight's F/D-smash, etc.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ Yea, D-Air > Grab is a great way to rack some damage, (I've use this very often), and it leaves you less open if you miss. I wonder if more people know that Kirby's hammer can break pass Meta Knight's tornado. XD ☆

 

[Asdioh]

I agree with everything Asdioh said. Everything.

That's like, the greatest thing I've heard all week.

I go with D-air > Grab because I think their instinctive reaction to the D-air is usually a shield, which blocks out the F-smash. The only time I go for a D-air to F-smash is if I see that my D-air has forced a trip on them, or has launched them into the air as it does rarely.

Agreed, I see Kirbys go Dair->grab allll the time, and it almost always works. I agree with the tripping->fsmash part or the launching. The launching usually only works at higher percents, but if you land it then great.

I actually realized that when I use Dair, I usually follow up with Ftilt. They might shield it, but a lot of the time the ftilt lands before they put up their shield, and even if you do hit their shield, the Ftilt is extremely hard to punish, so it's a reliable followup.

But I seriously need to use Dtilt trip->fsmash more, that may be something my game is lacking.

I'm going home now, so expect me to be on wifi all weekend, people ^_^

 

[A1lion835]

Asdioh, why? You couldn't have picked a worse time.

I think you're getting addicted to the wii.

**** off *****(did not say that)! To prove you wrong, I won't play wii for a week.

That was wednesday.

 

[Sky`]

I agree with everything Asdioh said. Everything.

(Except this)


I go with D-air > Grab because I think their instinctive reaction to the D-air is usually a shield, which blocks out the F-smash. The only time I go for a D-air to F-smash is if I see that my D-air has forced a trip on them, or has launched them into the air as it does rarely.

The way I see things is that once people learn to play against Kirby, the fight gets much harder for Kirby. This is because DI'ing out of his combos reduces his max damage to about 18% (F-throw to U-air, or B-air to U-tilt, etc). Once Kirby is stripped of his combos, he becomes a much weaker fighter since he lacks something that he can spam, because compared to Falco's lasers, Snake's tilts, Marth & ROBs everything, etc, Kirby's B-air doesn't really compare. What the Kirby player has to fall back on is outsmarting his opponent.

Landing one of Kirby's KO moves becomes increasingly difficult at higher levels of play (and on those who are familiar with the Kirby matchup) because they're all easy to punish. If someone doesn't leave themself completely open to getting hit by a F-smash, Stone, or Hammer, Kirby is going to get punished. While Kirby's F-smash is great, it's far less effective to use against a cautious opponent who is watching you closely than KO moves like Snake's U-tilt, Meta Knight's F/D-smash, etc.

If I might be so bold as to say...

Imo, Dair to anything isn't all that great, at higher levels of play. It becomes predictable, especially to those who know the matchup. Killing with Fsmash becomes less common and... Well... yeah.

 

[fromundaman]

Well, I'll start by saying Snake's utilt is going to be hard to beat no matter what.

In this case, the Kirby's Bair was probably a "I hope you walk towards me as I space Bairs against the air" that got hit by the retardedly broken hitbox of Uptilt. I'm guessing Kirby's foot is a "hurtbox" and the invisible uptilt isn't, so the invisible hitbox hit close to the tip of Kirby's foot, meaning Snake hit Kirby even though Kirby's main body was reaaallly far away.

Now, if the Bair you're going for is "I'm going to Bair right on top of you" then maybe it can beat uptilt, but Snake can just shieldgrab you, or shield and punish. :/

Agreed. I'm just saying it can work.

But I seriously need to use Dtilt trip->fsmash more, that may be something my game is lacking.

Yeah, but to be fair, it actually isn't very reliable. I've found myself doing Dtilt trip to grab a lot more often now unless it's against a big character.

Imo, Dair to anything isn't all that great, at higher levels of play. It becomes predictable, especially to those who know the matchup. Killing with Fsmash becomes less common and... Well... yeah.

You honestly shouldn't be using it enough for it to get predictable. Like you said, it can be DI'd to negate some follow ups, but if you catch them with it by surprise, then your follow ups should be good.

The way I see things is that once people learn to play against Kirby, the fight gets much harder for Kirby. This is because DI'ing out of his combos reduces his max damage to about 18% (F-throw to U-air, or B-air to U-tilt, etc). Once Kirby is stripped of his combos, he becomes a much weaker fighter since he lacks something that he can spam, because compared to Falco's lasers, Snake's tilts, Marth & ROBs everything, etc, Kirby's B-air doesn't really compare. What the Kirby player has to fall back on is outsmarting his opponent.

You know Fthrow isn't the only way to combo with Kirby right? Yeah, all the well-known combos will easily be DI'd out of, but Kirby is more about spur of the moment combos anyway. Also Dthrow to Utilt > Fthrow to Uair.
Yeah, Kirby is not good for spamming...