The Incredible, "Edible," Fireball! v0.20 - Now In Red, Too!

SparkEd

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The Incredible, Edible Fireball! ~v0.20

By SparkEd



~~CONTENTS~~
[INT] Intro To This Guide
[VER] Version History
[WTF] What's a Fireball?
[LUI] Luigi's Fireball Tactics
[MAR] Mario's Fireball Tactics
[TEA] Team Tactics
[FVA] Fireball VS Attacks List



[VER] Version History


v0.1 - Release of this guide. Basic uses of the Fireball are added and general tactics started on. I just started this guide, there's more to come! =)
v0.11 - Started on Mario's VS List and added Fireball Reversal. Moved stuff around. Started Team Battle Strategies. Character Specific Strategies Now under VS Lists for each character that is completed.
v0.13 - Added DK VS List. I'm not doing these in any specific order, so feel free to suggest another character.
v0.15 - OMG SKIPPED 0.14 LOLOLOLI--*Shot* ...Team Strategies Added with Wigi's Team Canceled Rapid Fire "AT." :p also Falco, Fox and Sonic.
v0.2 - Probably deserves a 2 now. :p Added the MOTHER Boys to the VS List; and Mario's Version is also popped in. Spelling Checks, some revisions to the VS List, because I forgot Dash Attack. Lots changed in other words.

[INT] Intro

The fireball; one of the most underlooked moves of Mario and Luigi (And possibly Kirby). It moves fairly slow, doesn't do a lot of damage, not too flashy other then that classic Fireball shooting FX and the glowiness. However, the Fireball is a very effective tool in approaching your enemy and taking control of the match. This guide will show you how to use the Fireball for any of the 3 characters who can use them to their full efficiency.

[WTF] What The Fireball?

The Fireball is the Neutral B Move for Mario and Luigi, and Kirby should he suck up either Mario Bro. Mario and Luigi's Fireballs have different qualities to be used differently.

Luigi's Fireball ("Borrowed" from Magus420's Frame Listing)

Luigi's Fireball takes 40 frames to do, about 2/3s of a second/
The Fireball comes out at the 17th frame.
The Fireball lasts 48 frames, and travels just a little short halfway through Final Destination.
Hitlag is 7 frames.
Shield Stun is 2 frames.
It does 6%, Priority is constant as it travels.
Luigi's Fireball is rather a simple projectile. It travels forward a bit slowly and does a tad of damage. The rate that Luigi fires them, however is enough to make it annoying and spammable over short to medium distances. It's priority is pretty high for something that simple, though. Don't underestimate it.

Mario's Fireball

It's Red, that means it's less green than Luigi's.

Does 5% Damage and decreases in speed when it hits the ground and bounces. It will disappear after a certain distance or if it loses a certain amount of speed, unlike Luigi's Fireball which will always dissapear after a certain fixed time point.
When shot from the ground, it goes the same distance as Luigi's Fireball (A little less actually) But if Shorthopped, it will travel a tad farther and have a larger arc. Double Jumping doesn't change its distance, but just the angle of which it bounces.
It has the same amount of priority as Luigi's Fireball.
It has a slightly slower rate of fire (No Pun Intended) than Luigi's Fireball; in other words, it's a bit slower to execute.

[LUI] Luigi's Fireball Tactics

APPROACHING

~Learn to use the Fireball as an "Arm Extension," not a projectile.
The fireball IMO does not have the same range as a conventional projectile, much like Falco's Blaster or Ness' PK Fire, so it's better used when someone is closing in on Luigi or when you need to space yourself out a bit.

~The Fireball forces people into the style you need..
That is, to clarify, if the fight is taking place on the ground, your opponent will be forced to take into the air. But if he's in the air and you start firebaling him there, Luigi will force them to go into the ground. Depending on the character Luigi's facing, you might be using this a lot or not at all.

~It's ok at Edgeguarding.
If Luigi knocks the opponent downwards, the best you can use is a Fastfall Fireball followed by an Edgegrab, rinse and repeat. Instead, it's better suited for disrupting recoveries above and about level with the stage. A Fireball can help set up a few Edgeguarding aerials that way.

OFFENSIVELY

~It's a Fake! It's a Setup!
The stun the Fireball gives is negligent but enough to set up a few combos. Use it to disrupt any counterattacking, and mix it in with some combos to mix up the flow for a little bit. EXAMPLE: Jab(+Jab)=>Up+B becomes predictable and Powershieldable to a certain point. Jabbing then Throwing in a Fireball and throw off your opponent's timing and Get a nice clean Sweetspot hit.

~Jumping All Over
A nice way to approach offensively is with SH Fireballs. Fireball, Jump forward, Fireball, when you land, Fireball again. it becomes difficult for some characters to attack when you get near, so make sure you utilize this tactic a lot.

~It's FIRE, Remember?
While this will not apply to non item tourneys, there are a few tourneys that probably will use the "legal" items, but it's still debatable. In any case, when you're just joking around with some items, remember that the Fireball can set off some explosives and such from a safe distance and yet close enough to attack your opponent.

DEFENSIVELY

~The Bullet Stopper
Fireballing projectiles is useful in many degrees; sometimes it's an awesome defense, sometimes it can't stop it; sometimes it just plain sucks against it. I'll explain in later detail about blocking some certain projectiles with the Fireball.

~Jumping All Over (Backwards)
SHing backwards with Fireballing is also a nice retreat tactic. Get them away with an aerial or jab or whatever, then follow up by SHing away occasionally throwing Fireballs at mixed intervals to make the pattern less predictable. Again, you can fit at the most 2 fireballs in one SH and maybe 3 in a full jump (counting the landing Fireball).

~The Character Stopper
Not only do Fireballs stop projectiles, they can stop characters from approaching correctly, forcing them to rethink other options of how to approach. More is explained with certain characters in the character specifics guide.

Fireball B Reversal - This is a nice mindgame to use or maybe help you turn around direction a bit more quickly without fear of being hit.
Simply start pressing the other way, and right when you let go of the control stick, hit B, and Luigi will fire a Fireball in the direction he's headed. He can easily change directions and setup much easier from behind that way. ...I'm pretty sure anyone else with their own Neutral B move can do it too, though.

[MAR] Mario's Fireball Strategies

Mario shares some of Luigi's tacics, but not all of them. Some tactics need a bit of retweaking for the Superstar in Red, and some are overall unique to him.

~Edgeguarding The Mario Way
Mario's Fireballs are tons more effective at Edgeguarding because of their ability to last longer when airborne. Use that to your advantage, but remember you'll need to jump a little higher to get that Fireball where you want it. Of course, you'll have your Fireballs and enjoy your FLUDD and Cape too, so...

~Approaching
Mario is much better at approaching from the ground by moving and SHing Fireballs. However, he can't really use his Fireball if the fight happens to be aerial as well unless there's platforms which can bounce them, so be wary.

~Hogging the Slope
Mario is just too good from the top of a slope; his Fireballs are a tad more difficult to get through when approaching from a slope, so get on top of a hill and fire away!

[TEA] Team Attack General Strategies

Assuming Team Attack is ON, Luigi and Mario also have a few more strategies for his partner using the Fireball.

~You Must Recover! Again!
It's common knowledge that attacking someone when they're helpless makes them able to use the Up+B again. Hence, use the Fireball to help your partner recover should they fall short. It's fairly situational given the properties of his fireball, though.
~Team Canceled Rapid Fire (TCRF) - Team "Fake AT" Originally "founded out" by Wigi and Friends (Team Ham And Cheese Tree)If you use the Fireball when your teammate is executing a move, as long as the move starts, it will negate ANY ending lag the move might have. For example, Ness' PK Fire has a considerable amount of ending lag on it, but if he was tapped by a Fireball right after he shot the Fire, he'd automatically be able to do it again. It can lead into interesting techniques and "Walls" of projectiles that would make i difficult to approach, but this tactic loses credibility when there are 2 opponents on the field. best used during an endgame, obviously.
VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P13Lw_sZd1A


[FVA] Fireball VS Attacks List

The Fireball VS Attacks lists of which attacks and projectiles are able to be canceled or to the least "clanked" (on the ground) with the Fireball. In other words, it's when the main hitbox of the attack hits the Fireball, not the attacker itself. Moves do not count start/end lag so these collisions are not final; so it would still be possible to stop the attack prematurely if start/end lag existed in the move. Exceptions will apply. Applies to both Mario and Luigi's Fireball, as their priority is exactly the same.


Anything in plain ol' color hasn't been tested yet. =(
Anything in blue means the Fireball overrrides the whole attack and hurts the character.
Anything in orange means both the attack and the Fireball are canceled.
Anything in red means the attack overrides the Fireball, but stalls the attack for a few frames.
Anything in DARK Red means the Fireball is canceled without any lag whatsoever.
Anything in Green is a special case...

Mario :mario2:

Neutral A
FTilt

UTilt
DTilt
Dash Attack
FSmash

DSmash
USmash

NAir (Sweetspot) (Weak)
FAir
DAir (Spinning) (Final Hit) (Landing Lag "Hit")
UAir
BAir

Fireball
Cape - It reflects, obviously. Just dodge/shield it =|
F.L.U.D.D.
Super Jump Punch

=Fireball Efficiency 2/5=

Strategy: Mario has a ton of ways to use your own Fireball against you, and to top that off, he has his OWN Fireball, which is much better defensively and approaching. here, the Fireball must be used a bit closer than usual and less frequently to catch him offguard and attack. Don't use this to Edgeguard Mario; it's not worth the hassle thanks to his cape. In Team Battles, it's a bit more hectic because he's most likely occupied with your teammate, so you can use the Fireball much more to your heart's content.

--------

Donkey Kong :dk2:

Neutral A
FTilt
UTilt
DTilt

Dash Attack
FSmash
USmash
DSmash

NAir
FAir

BAir

UAir

DAir


Giant Punch

Headbutt

Handslap

Spinning Kong (Ground) (Air)
=Fireball Efficiency 3/5=
Strategy: DK has quite a large arsenal of ranged attacks, so it's nice to see that the Fireball outdoes his FTilt and such. Just use the standard Fireball Starts and such and you'll be fine. Note that many of his attacks have startup lag, so take advantage of it.

--------

Sonic :sonic:

Neutral A
FTilt
UTilt
DTilt
Dash Attack
FSmash

DSmash - When Sonic spins around the second time, it'll hurt him. *Confirmed*
USmash
NAir (Weak)
FAir
BAir
UAir

DAir

Homing Attack
Spin Dash (Regardless of Charge!)
Spin Charge (Inital Hop) (Actual Roll)
<=Anyone else think think that should be the other way around? O_o;
Spring
(Spring From MidAir) (Sonic Ascending - Durn Invincibility Frames =()

=Fireball Efficiency 4/5=
As you can see, ALL of Sonic's special moves can be stopped with a simple fireball, so it's easy to stop a few of his tactics involving a spin dash. Sonic relies on speed a lot, and Fireballs totally rip it apart. Just keep on spamming them and give him green hell. =)

--------

Falco :falco:

Neutral A
FTilt
UTilt (Both Hits)
DTilt
Dash Attack
FSmash
DSmash
USmash

NAir
(Weak)
FAir

BAir
UAir

DAir (Sweetspot) (Weak)
Blaster - It's like they never really interact.

Falco Phantasm - BUT! You need to make sure you hit HIM - The "Illusion" he makes (The Blue Shadow) is a separate hitbox, so T_T
Reflector - Um... T_T
Fire Bird (Charge) (Actual Attack)

=Fireball Efficiency 2/5=
Ugh, don't use the Fireball too much here; The hassle of the reflector is too much. You could use it a little every now and then, but use it STRICTLY for surprise setups.

--------

Fox:fox:
Neutral A
FTilt
UTilt
DTilt
Dash Attack
FSmash
DSmash
USmash

NAir

FAir

BAir
UAir

DAir
Blaster - No interaction. Am I missing something here?
Fox Illusion
Reflector - Also T_T
Fire Fox (Initial Charge) (Actual Attack)

=Fireball Efficiency 2.5/5=
The same case with Falco; surprise setups only. I suppose it works a little better on Fox due to fact he relies on small, fast hits. It should hinder his approach a little better. Still, use with Caution.

------------------

Lucas :lucas:

Neutral A
FTilt
UTilt

DTilt

Dash Attack
FSmash - Reflects and does 9% (The Fireball Itself).

USmash
DSmash - !
NAir
FAir

BAir

UAir
DAir


PK Freeze
- No interaction.
PK Fire - Initial blast from collision of Fireball and PK Fire can still hurt Luigi, however.
PK Thunder
PK Magnet - Absorbs And Heals Lucas. Also, the Attack Hitbox at the disengaging of PK Magnet has no iteraction with the Fireball.

=Fireball Efficiency 2.5/5=
PK Magnet somewhat deters you from spamming the Fireball too much; and attacking from its ending lag is not a good idea thanks to its hitbox at the end of the attack. Use sparingly, and use when they least expect it. However, When Lucas uses PK Thunder, the Fireball will cancel the projectile and Lucas will (most likely!) fall to his doom.

----------

Ness :ness2:
Neutral A
FTilt
UTilt

DTilt

Dash Attack
FSmash - Reflects and does 9% (The Fireball Itself).

USmash
DSmash
NAir
FAir

BAir

UAir
DAir


PK Flash

PK Fire (Initial Shot) (Fire Column)
PK Thunder
PK Magnet - Yet Another Absorb.

=Fireball Efficiency 3/5=
See Lucas. The only difference is that Ness' PK Magnet won't hurt when you get near him so take advantage of that. Watch out for that windgust, as that could screw over your specing majorly.
 

Blackbelt

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Please, by all means, add Kirby to this.


I personally find it very effective with Kirby when facing Luigi 1v1, since it forces Luigi out of the air.
 

Locuan

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Wow awesome work here. Do you mind if I place this thread in my Luigi guide as an outside resource, cause you have made an amazing coverage on the fireball :laugh:.
 

AlAxe

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This is nice for beginners but I doubt any long time Luigi mains would find anything new here. That vs. attacks list should be useful.
 

SparkEd

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Yeah, I'm pretty sure the VS list will be moreso to more "expert" Luigi players, but I was mostly gearing this guide to the beginners who really need it the most.

And yeah, feel free to link it in your guide, Locuan. :p

I'll make the Kirby version a bit later on tho :p
 

SparkEd

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DoublePost/Bump because I won't let this sink to the other odd posts =|
 

CookieCrisp

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I believe that the fireball cancells and deals damage to ike's over b, cancels out his over a, and also cancels out his tilt a.
 

SparkEd

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Updated with DK.

Go ahead and suggest who I should do next. I won't start another character before I finish the one I'm on, so be wary and patient.
 

CookieCrisp

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I'll start compiling a list of ike's moves that are cancelled with fireballs et cetra and post them here
 

SparkEd

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Sonic's up.

I've been busy lately, but later on I won't be busy so the guide will update much, much faster.
 

SparkEd

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Updated, I guess? More stuff than a single character tho so I hope that'll make up for it.

Ugh, And I have a vacation next week. better do some more before I go, I guess :S
 

Locuan

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Ok interesting discovery I made on the fireball while in a tournament. You know Ness and Lucas right? If a fireball hit's them while they are trying to do their PK Thunder recovery they will be gimped, they can't do anything after that, they'll just fall to their doom :laugh:
 

hippiedude92

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Ok interesting discovery I made on the fireball while in a tournament. You know Ness and Lucas right? If a fireball hit's them while they are trying to do their PK Thunder recovery they will be gimped, they can't do anything after that, they'll just fall to their doom :laugh:

Another thing I can add to yours against the Ness/Lucas. You can constantly do a ground or shorthop fireball, and force them to use their Downb, PK magnet? Forgot the name. They'll use it and they'll have some considerable lag giving you a free firepunch. Just think of it as fighting a GaW with the bucket :D
 

LP4Life666

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Who knew there was so much to do with one simple underused move? Great contribution, Spark.
 

Inraika-Zero

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Thanks so much for this thread, Out of the majority of my friends online, and locally Im the only one who uses is fireballs constently (Not spamming) they are such a good way to stop combos and other things, and since people hardly use it its not a predictible way to gain extra damage and annoy your enemy!

The fireball is almost as good as luigis lil Kick of doom! (down Taunt)
 

SparkEd

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Mmm, back from vacation. I plan to do Ness and Lucas, I just gotta setup my Wii again.

As for the lag on Ness/Lucas PK Magnet; it wouldn't work for Lucas most likely becasue of the attacking hitbox. For Ness, the gust of wind would hinder but I'm sure an FSmash would work there. I'll go test it later on.
 

SparkEd

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Added the MOTHER Boys.

Annnd Mario's Fireball Strategies! I feel like a hog only doing Luigi's, after all :p
 

hippiedude92

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Lol this is useful guide since I main Luigi/Mario, but adding the mario part is really nesscary in a Luigi board? O_o I have a silly idea, have you ever thought of using a fireball on the wall and it bounces back? like a reflector?
 

SparkEd

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I'm probably gonna ask to move this else where if I really need to, because I'm mainly Focusing on Luigi...I put in Mario (And Soon Kirby) Just for Extra things, it makes it feel more complete. :p I'd probably post a link to here from the Mario and Kirby Boards but eh someone else can do that if they wanna :/

Both varieties of Fireball bounce off walls ans slopes accordingly; Luigi's has the odd habit of bouncing off at weird angles when it hits the edge of certain stages (IE Battlefield, FD) so eh. On slopes it bounces off at a sensible angle. Mario's rebounds in a high but small and dissipates quickly.
 

ALiAsVee

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In addition to what Hippiedude92 has said about bouncing the fireball off the wall in matches:

I noticed something earlier today with luigi's fireball that i don't think has been mentioned, (if it has then sorry i didn't see it).

Luigi's (and maybe mario)'s fireball, when shot on the corner of stages such as battlefield, change directions when hit. For example, i hit the fireball at the stage and it shot straight up on a 90 degree angle.

In the same match, the fireball bounced right back off stage in the direction it was shot in.
I haven't looked to recreate/upload the video because i want to be sure that it hasn't already been mentioned by someone. It may be useful for mindgames or possible to attack opponents that are in otherwise inaccessible areas based on where luigi is.
 

hippiedude92

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In addition to what Hippiedude92 has said about bouncing the fireball off the wall in matches:

I noticed something earlier today with luigi's fireball that i don't think has been mentioned, (if it has then sorry i didn't see it).

Luigi's (and maybe mario)'s fireball, when shot on the corner of stages such as battlefield, change directions when hit. For example, i hit the fireball at the stage and it shot straight up on a 90 degree angle.

In the same match, the fireball bounced right back off stage in the direction it was shot in.
I haven't looked to recreate/upload the video because i want to be sure that it hasn't already been mentioned by someone. It may be useful for mindgames or possible to attack opponents that are in otherwise inaccessible areas based on where luigi is.
That's what happened to me today lol. I was trying to gimp Lucario and I accidently used a SH fireball the wrong way, it hit the lip of Battlefield, and still managed to bounce back and hit lucario giving me a chance to **** him. Pretty handy eh? Include that in Spark nao nao :o
 

SparkEd

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It tends to do that because of it's very sensitive to small kinks in the stage.

It's hard to pull off consistently and it's situational...
 

ALiAsVee

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i'll play around with the idea a little bit more. It may be hard to pull off, but i think it would be useful if someone was jumping/falling of the edge of the stage to hit you while you recover. Likewise, to be able to fireball someone behind you while you are both off the stage might also be useful.

So i don't think its situational, though it is inconsistent. I'll keep trying though before i leave it labeled as such.
 

Faithkeeper

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Why not just do a b-reversal fireball if you are off stage? it'd have less distance to travel, thus getting there faster and being much easier to aim.

I may not understand correctly, but i don't see any real use to bouncing a fireball off of a wall while grounded, you can't turn around?
 

ALiAsVee

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yeah the B-reversal does sound better if you wanted to hit behind you.

I suppose the application of bouncing the fireball off the wall would be so you can quickly shorthop into a backair. Although i know you will mention that you can do the same thing by turning around, shooting the fireball, then RAR bair.

Maybe Hippiedude92 had something in mind when he brought that up? or was it spur of the moment xD.

I suppose this might be some quirk to luigi, but not really practical. I still have some hope for the fireball that can be turned at a 90 degree angle off the lip of the stage though.
 

hippiedude92

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Yah it was a spur a moment xD! Hmmm. maybe you can do a b-reversal or aim it towards the lip of the stage, so when they get the hitstun you'll be able to do a Bair or maybe a Dair spike ( the hitbox is behind him somewhere near his hands where he twirls it) I guess it's situational or just inconsisent. Then again, they are other options in just ledge guarding.
 

Delta_BP26

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Thanks a lot for this awesome guide! I usually only spam the fireball against characters with no projectile and no means of dealing with them (Ike, Ganondorf, Captain) but this has opened up many possibilities. The particularly interesting part is the match-up section with the colors that make my eyes bleed.
 
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