The Hall of Fame - Squirtle Video Thread

[Burnsy]

I was pretty critical of JewChainz earlier squirtle showings, but I have to say this latest S@X was impressive he is actually moving around the way a squirtle player should, and his up-throw combos have really upped my own game. Also the commentator drops a lot of squirtle tips, like the DI trap.

Uthrow only combos fast fallers/bad di/people who miss their opportunity to jump or airdodge out. Just keep in mind that fthrow is gonna combo on more characters and at more percents. Of course, its best to use both but just keep in mind that those are both combo throws depending on the situation.

I agree he seems to be getting a better grasp of Squirtles playstyle. Their pressure,approach, and combo game could use a little work

 

[Zwarm]

Does he ever grab the ledge when Lucas is offstage? He has him right where he wants him so many times, and he just sits on stage shellshifting back and forth.

I do like the up throw stuff though, can't say I've ever played a Lucas to know that stuff worked, so it's a good reference for the future

 

[Burnsy]

Crap, my phone wrote dthrow instead of fthrow before and I didn't notice till just now. Sorry if that confused anyone.

 

[Daftatt]

this jewchainz match was really disappointing. against spacies, squirtle can edge guard like marth, but with d-smash instead of f-smash. JewChainz should have utilized d-smash a lot more, it would have really helped him out.

EDIT: Jew Chainz told me he is going to use d-smash more next week. I would love a good showing of d-smash's capabilities for aspiring shell-masters

 

[Zwarm]

Two new videos of me, though one is an Iron Man (1v1 crew battle) money match, so there's my Ivysaur and day 1 G&W in there too

vs. Shion (Iron Man) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHc0lle5SUQ

vs. Trail https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vwpgyGLFRo

 

[Daftatt]

Two new videos of me, though one is an Iron Man (1v1 crew battle) money match, so there's my Ivysaur and day 1 G&W in there too

vs. Shion (Iron Man) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHc0lle5SUQ

vs. Trail https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vwpgyGLFRo

those matches vs trail you were wavedashing like a boss, all luigi up in there. I personally don't use watergun, but you seem to have uses for it. Have any tips for watergun uses? I also notice you don't really grab often, reasoning behind this??

 

[Zwarm]

I love wavedashing with Squirtle all Luigi-like. It's why I play Luigi in Melee now haha.

Water Gun has so many uses. It's an interrupt if they try to hit you, you can wavebounce it to avoid pressure and have less endlag than Bubble, it leads into grabs on the ground, it can add a little damage onto the end of combos even at higher percents, etc. All Squirtles should use Water Gun, seriously.

I don't really have a reasoning besides Ganon and Bowser scare me, and I don't ever want to be that close to either of them. Marth too. My 2.6b Squirtle grabbed a lot more, but I don't find his grab as useful anymore, since he lost the fthrow chaingrab, and I usually land kills without having to resort to down throw.

 

[Daftatt]

I love wavedashing with Squirtle all Luigi-like. It's why I play Luigi in Melee now haha.

Water Gun has so many uses. It's an interrupt if they try to hit you, you can wavebounce it to avoid pressure and have less endlag than Bubble, it leads into grabs on the ground, it can add a little damage onto the end of combos even at higher percents, etc. All Squirtles should use Water Gun, seriously.

I don't really have a reasoning besides Ganon and Bowser scare me, and I don't ever want to be that close to either of them. Marth too. My 2.6b Squirtle grabbed a lot more, but I don't find his grab as useful anymore, since he lost the fthrow chaingrab, and I usually land kills without having to resort to down throw.

You ever think about using shellshift/dashdance to bait in characters then hydrograbbing them? I do this a lot and I get a lot of mileage out of it because it has massive range. What are your thoughts on this AT?

 

[Zwarm]

I used to use it a lot, actually. I'm not very consistent with it though, so I tend to not try anymore.

My Squirtle play style has changed drastically since I dropped him and picked him back up, there's a lot of things I don't do anymore, like hydro grabbing and whatever you call his DACUS, but I haven't noticed it affect me much, results-wise. I have to work on getting some elements back, it seems.

 

[QraQ]

You ever think about using shellshift/dashdance to bait in characters then hydrograbbing them? I do this a lot and I get a lot of mileage out of it because it has massive range. What are your thoughts on this AT?

That's generally how I use Squirtle. Hydroplane grab and, even better, hydroplane pivot grab cover such a large amount of space that it is not negligible. Prolly my favorite follow-up to bubble or tech chase after over-B hit to hit. I've gotten into using the perfect shell-sling usmash too. I've noticed it has two useful variants though, 1) using C-stick is a set range (usually half a big stage, 3/4 a normal) u-smash and 2) with using Up and A for the charged DACUS-like u-smash that lead across the entirety of most stages. I'm noticing the c-stick input method has a lot more practical uses than Up and A.

To note the discussion before, I'm finding more and more uses for dsmash as punishing and edge-guards. Although, even with hydroplane accessibility, I still feel like dsmash stops at least my Squirtle too hard. My style of play with him is constant neutral pressure with as much movement as possible usually. I find my combo strength diminishing the moment I work dsmash into any kind of "flowing" combo. I, again, find it much better to use tilts for anything close-up to Squirtle. Even better is the crouch walk attack considering it's safety on shield.

 

[Daftatt]

That's generally how I use Squirtle. Hydroplane grab and, even better, hydroplane pivot grab cover such a large amount of space that it is not negligible. Prolly my favorite follow-up to bubble or tech chase after over-B hit to hit. I've gotten into using the perfect shell-sling usmash too. I've noticed it has two useful variants though, 1) using C-stick is a set range (usually half a big stage, 3/4 a normal) u-smash and 2) with using Up and A for the charged DACUS-like u-smash that lead across the entirety of most stages. I'm noticing the c-stick input method has a lot more practical uses than Up and A.

To note the discussion before, I'm finding more and more uses for dsmash as punishing and edge-guards. Although, even with hydroplane accessibility, I still feel like dsmash stops at least my Squirtle too hard. My style of play with him is constant neutral pressure with as much movement as possible usually. I find my combo strength diminishing the moment I work dsmash into any kind of "flowing" combo. I, again, find it much better to use tilts for anything close-up to Squirtle. Even better is the crouch walk attack considering it's safety on shield.

I've really started to perfect my spacing from the edge with my d-smash edge guard. You can spike-trade with spacie recoveries, or if you are further back from the ledge you can get a safer semi-spike. If you can get the timing down, it's the best edge guard in the whole game, it just stops EVERYTHING. As far as slowing squirtle down, I definitely agree it's the major downside. There is an incredibly small (maybe 1-2 frames) window in which you can actually hydroplane D-smash, I've never been able to do it consistently though, If I could get it down it would be incredibly useful, I actually don't think there is a single squirtle player that has mastered the hydroplane d-smash.

 

[QraQ]

I've really started to perfect my spacing from the edge with my d-smash edge guard. You can spike-trade with spacie recoveries, or if you are further back from the ledge you can get a safer semi-spike. If you can get the timing down, it's the best edge guard in the whole game, it just stops EVERYTHING. As far as slowing squirtle down, I definitely agree it's the major downside. There is an incredibly small (maybe 1-2 frames) window in which you can actually hydroplane D-smash, I've never been able to do it consistently though, If I could get it down it would be incredibly useful, I actually don't think there is a single squirtle player that has mastered the hydroplane d-smash.

\

Yeah it's becoming more apparent to me how good Squirtle's dsmash is for edge-guarding but I would argue it being the "best". Many projectiles and disjointed HBs (Ivy) trump it in that category IMO.
I was trying it for like thirty minutes and am unsure what to actually look for. As far as I've done I can bring the dsmash in after the pullback from shellsling. Is the dsmash supposed to slide far? If I'm doing it right then I still see it's mobility flaw being an issue.
The only positive use I found for it in mobility is how it can chain at low to mid % with the hit of the turn around animation.

 

[Daftatt]

\

Yeah it's becoming more apparent to me how good Squirtle's dsmash is for edge-guarding but I would argue it being the "best". Many projectiles and disjointed HBs (Ivy) trump it in that category IMO.
I was trying it for like thirty minutes and am unsure what to actually look for. As far as I've done I can bring the dsmash in after the pullback from shellsling. Is the dsmash supposed to slide far? If I'm doing it right then I still see it's mobility flaw being an issue.
The only positive use I found for it in mobility is how it can chain at low to mid % with the hit of the turn around animation.

sometimes I will accidentally do it, it slides about 1/3 to 1/2 length of FD, maybe further if I hold Z to charge it but I never manage to pull that off.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Check out my bad Squirtle, guys. I think Water Gun pressure is secretly the truth. I just need to figure out how to play the character first.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p030rsvIzCY

 

[QraQ]

Check out my bad Squirtle, guys. I think Water Gun pressure is secretly the truth. I just need to figure out how to play the character first.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p030rsvIzCY

Stopped watching when it paused 0-.-0

 

[TheReflexWonder]

When it what?

 

[jtm94]

I think Squirtle Dashing aka Hydroplaning is the truth.

It is way too fun.

 

[Burnsy]

I love wavedashing with Squirtle all Luigi-like. It's why I play Luigi in Melee now haha.

Water Gun has so many uses. It's an interrupt if they try to hit you, you can wavebounce it to avoid pressure and have less endlag than Bubble, it leads into grabs on the ground, it can add a little damage onto the end of combos even at higher percents, etc. All Squirtles should use Water Gun, seriously.

I don't really have a reasoning besides Ganon and Bowser scare me, and I don't ever want to be that close to either of them. Marth too. My 2.6b Squirtle grabbed a lot more, but I don't find his grab as useful anymore, since he lost the fthrow chaingrab, and I usually land kills without having to resort to down throw.

lol, he def didnt lose the fthrow chaingrab, I do it in almost every recent match of mine at some point.

 

[Burnsy]

Watergun is the truth. Empty hydroplaning/manual ss canceling with pivot is also quite truthful. I'd really like to see this developed further (which is why I've been working in/talking about it so much this past week)

 

[jtm94]

What do you even use watergun for?

 

[QraQ]

What do you even use watergun for?

I use it for:
1) Mid-air combo extension on stages like pokemon stadium 1/2 where you can force them to land on platform and position yourself below.
2) Ground combo extension on missed tech or tech chase.
3) Aerial manipulation alternative to DI and side-B.

Occasionally:
1) Long charge far off edge guard. Usually in a wavelength formation above their approach angle.
2) Lowered on-stage edge guard to horizontal approaches.

 

[Zwarm]

lol, he def didnt lose the fthrow chaingrab, I do it in almost every recent match of mine at some point.

People need to DI better then

Water Gun is the truth. It also explodes Snake's mortar at a safe distance.

I'll have some more videos of my Squirtle up in the next few days. Link/Pit MU's.

 

[Burnsy]

People need to DI better then

Water Gun is the truth. It also explodes Snake's mortar at a safe distance.

I'll have some more videos of my Squirtle up in the next few days. Link/Pit MU's.

Whatever you say man. Because no matter where or who i've used it on, it works for me. For that matter, does there even exist any chaingrab on most characters in this game that can't be escaped from via DI? Pretty sure the only one who comes close to that is Ganon, who is arguably so disadvantaged elsewhere that he needs a chainthrow that lasts for long.

According to the changelogs, the only change to fthrow has been a reduction in cooldown, which would only improve the effectiveness of such a throw. It has always had stats similar to Marths fthow, and likewise he can get a lot of low % chaingrabs on certain characters that become di-able once you near the lower end of mid percent.
I started doing this because I saw Reflex do it a few times. You gonna tell him it doesn't work too?

 

[Zwarm]

I dunno. I used to do it all the time in 2.6b, but I've gotten it maybe once in 3.0. It seems so much easier to DI away from Squirtle now, where before you couldn't DI as much. They changed Squirtle's entire physics engine for this version, basically, it's possible he lost the ability to CG along with all those changes.

 

[Burnsy]

I can't see how changing his movement physics would affect his throw in that sort of way. Maybe this was a different Squirtle change that never made it onto the changelog, like his aqua jet's armor being downgraded to light armor.

 

[didds]

Two new videos of me, though one is an Iron Man (1v1 crew battle) money match, so there's my Ivysaur and day 1 G&W in there too

vs. Shion (Iron Man) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHc0lle5SUQ

vs. Trail https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vwpgyGLFRo

Do you ever use uair after side b? I always go for the pop up if I can.

 

[Burnsy]

Uair is a great sideb followup at the right percents

 

[Zwarm]

I use uair to follow up side B if I turn around at the last second and get the Withdraw that has you floating above them, then a quick fast falled uair does wonders.

 

[Zwarm]

Some new videos. More to come soon as well, with a "tournament" tomorrow, and a monthly on Saturday.

vs. Seesaw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MejZNfrHA38
vs. Scythe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkbIGnXsP8w - Ignore game 1 if desired, I played Zelda.
vs. 5-1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR8Za97x9Ds - threw this one hard game 3
vs. Lazarond https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aAoaaREB_0
vs. Jpal https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-IdYVC_9sU - He knows the Squirtle MU so well somehow, and I didn't adapt to that at all. I learned a lot though. Also ignore my G&W getting bopped game 1

These are actually in descending order, the top videos were from last Wednesday, and the last one is from February, so you can kinda see where I've improved since then.

 

[Jonnis]

Hi!
I have been playing Squirtle for 2 months.
There was a norwegian tournament last weekend(placed 2nd).
I just want to show you guys my Squirtle.

http://www.twitch.tv/meleenorway/b/513577540
(Norwegian commentary)
1:37:00 - Jonnis(Squirtle) vs Nicklas(Marth/Samus)
Next set: Jonnis(Squirtle(green(pink) vs Hudet(Charizard/ZSS/Squirtle(Purple))
Next set: Jonnis(Squirtle/Zelda) vs FlikkFlakk(Roy/Fox).
3:47:00 - Jonnis(Squirtle) vs Kriz(Ganon/Marth)
And I'm playing every set after the set against Kriz.

What you guys think?

 

[Burnsy]

Duuuuuude your combo game looks really solid. And in a lot of ways your movement game is really solid, although it could be even better.

The Marth unfortunately seemed to have no idea about how to deal with you, resorting to spammed fairs, counters and fsmashes hoping you would run into them for him (not happening) and leaving himself open to attack. There were also times where it looks like he forgot he can DI, lol. Still, good job sticking it to him and I like the movement with b-reverse bubble but dont get too predictable with bubble in general, I saw times where you would try to bubble and then do it again 4 or 5 more times within the next 12 or so seconds. Btw, water gun is pretty good against Marth imo, but only if they approach (this one rarely did).

Against the Charizard/ZSS, be careful about trying to land the waterfall kill combo because if you don't hit them you leave yourself pretty open. It's nice to be flashy but when its not even at a % where it's gonna kill sometimes its better to play it safe and back off and instead try to stop them from getting on the ground. You also seem to be using shellsling bubble to approach 50% of the time, which can be a problem once players start finding ways around it. Shellsling nair is a pretty good approach when spaced well; maybe you could work that in to your game.
I've got no comments on the double squirtle JV 4 lol...

The "too much shellsling bubble" gets you in trouble against the Roy, right on his first stocks he gets two grabs+followups off you from punishing it. Also it looks like there are times where you are overusing side-b in bursts as well. Which is fine if your opponent is incapable of adapting to it, but just be aware. I feel like you could use dsmash more, it leads to good combos and even if you hit their sheild it still has pretty low endlag, they'll have to punish it with something fast which makes it somewhat low risk to use in neutral.

Against Fox, the dairs were good. I think anytime you are in a position where you can dair Fox and get the last hit (in the air near him and not moving too fast) that you should do it. Pops him up at higher% and puts enough damage on him to knock him down for easy techchases at lower%. Dair>dsmash (or even dsmash>dair>dsmash) can be pretty significant on fast fallers cuz it does big damage and then sets up into a variety of other juggle options.

When you get a lead against Ganon you can afford to be a little careful. I can tell you like to play aggressive which is fine but wrecklessly shellslinging bubbles and side-bs against a powerful character like him can get you punished hard, and it does a couple of times. There's no way this MU should be close at all if you aren't geting outplayed hard by the Ganon. I also noticed during this match that you have a habit of shell shift dancing for an extended time before going for a surprise hydroplane usmash. It might be a better mixup to at times just go for it, or at least throw in baits throughout the match by doing this extended SS dancing *without* having it always end with you hydroplane usmashing.

That's all I have time for now. But yea, they should just make a highlight video of the tournament and have it be nothing but your combos cuz you kinda wrecked lol.

 

[didds]

http://www.twitch.tv/fluxwolf/c/4021652

http://www.twitch.tv/fluxwolf/c/4021618

http://www.twitch.tv/fluxwolf/b/517390469

first two are just friendly sets.
the third is our whole session if anyone cares to go through it. Any squirtle play is mine (same goes for yoshi, diddy, and the one and only gaw match. My tag Is Dank?

thanks ahead of time everyone

edit: times for my matches on the third link, a couple are probably now double posted since the first two videos are just taken out of the full thing. 44:06, 55:46, 1:00:48, 1:08:42, 1:50:05, 1:55:10, 2:33:00, 2:37:55, 2:44:00, 3:16:10, 3:26:30. Thanks again everyone, I know it's a lotta twitch to rummage through but I really appreciate it.

 

[Daftatt]

...........

 

[SpiderMad]

If you guys wanted to test one part of tech skill, early aerials, you kind of blew your chance with Squirtle. His 1 frame technique of SH Bair/Dair WL/DJ was made unavailable when they increased his gravity. I would guess they didn't realize this either. SH Nair DJ/WL seems to be more lenient than 1 frame, it's pry 2 or 3. I wonder what the frame windows are for his double aerials. I've been trying to find other characters that have a specifically 1 frame early aerial sequence.

 

[Burnsy]

Spidermad, you always rant about the same things in your posts.

How bout that hard press airdodge

 

[Daftatt]

Spidermad, you always rant about the same things in your posts.

How bout that hard press airdodge

what is hard press air dodge?

 

[SpiderMad]

lol it's been pissin me lately, first when I made this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=JJDkfjFr1F0#t=210 where all I could do was nair now (though I prolly coulda done some double fairs and stuff, I thinks sh fair nair or something was also ruined). Then I got started on making an early aerial tutorial video thing and I missed it some'mo

what is hard press air dodge?

Spoiler

It's one of the two main stresses in Melee. The other being Melee checking a frame earlier than it had to (possibly due to coding limitations) for Button release to determine short hop (while you're in your jump squat animation). Brawl fixed the short hop issue (by checking the last frame possible), making all of these characters in the 3 frame range not require your hands to be tense as they would have in Melee.

Spoiler

PM through coincidental ambrosial mishap offered solution to the Hard press issue. First-most is light shielding not currently existing, making Power shield only require a light press (a facet around removing your spring to achieve likewise affect). Second is for their first demo's coding they weren't able to separate Brawl's inputs to be light press versus hard press (it's either one or the other, because Brawl was designed for Wii controllers), so they went with having everything light press (which Brawl should have done or gave the option for). They were later able to develop a hard press variable to be inserted into the game, but it doesn't recognize on Replays/Wifi. Light press Air dodge offered in the Replay version is easier to press and has few set backs, so those that prize its comfort for how much we play the game enjoy it accordingly. Beyond that, Zhime could detail you on how it's just faster to get Air dodges out (though you can match it with hard press, it goes back to requiring more effort)

Here's video of it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGGHCzl_RMM , notice how my hands gleam with voluminous comfort.

 

[straydoggywog]

I got in some sets against some good players. Critique please!


http://www.twitch.tv/chillindude2/b/522498734
Chillin (wolf) Me (Squirtle) Nine Minute Mark.

East Coast Eddie (Snake) Me (Squirtle) at 45 Minute mark.

 

[Daftatt]

I got in some sets against some good players. Critique please!


http://www.twitch.tv/chillindude2/b/522498734
Chillin (wolf) Me (Squirtle) Nine Minute Mark.

East Coast Eddie (Snake) Me (Squirtle) at 45 Minute mark.

against wolf: wavedash-downsmash

As well as wavedashing in general. You use withdraw a lot, too much probably. Watergun pressure could be useful, especially against spacies. I saw some attempted Shellshift grabs, good stuff when you get the timing right. As your your neutral game, it isn't there. Wavedash, turnaround attack, dash canceling the turnaround exit animation, and SS smash attacks are all fantastic neutral game tools for squirtle. Coming out with a well timed d-smash always is a great combo starter too.

Withdraw hit and run over to ledges works for a while if you can keep them at bay with bubble. But you should be establishing more of an on stage presence or you won't control the flow of the match, and thereby can't get combos.

Working on DI is probably a good idea in this matchup, eventually though, you can use d-smash at the ledge or an armor frame nair to gimp wolf as he comes back on, I believe you can armor nair the wolf over-b, I do it all the time to fox and falco but wolf's is tricky and comes out fast, but it's something to practice.

 

[Nakuri]

I played some friendlies and got a Game Capture Device at hand so I recorded a few matches. I would love to hear some critique about my Squirtle.