The H2YL Tier List (Version 2)

[CT Chia]

Overall Marth is a solid choice. He doesn't get ***** at all really.

BUT

He really doesn't **** anyone else either.

this is sort of how i see rob, he has no terrible matchups, and has very few negative matchups at all. on the other hand, he has some good matchups for himself, more so than marth. also looking at qualities of a character, rob has better recovery, is heavier, and is faster (attack speed) for the most part

if someone like marth (no bad matchups, no great ones) is top tier, then u also have to look at diddy and toon link as they fall into the same category imo

 

[Inui]

Falco is waaay better than Marth wtf are you smoking Marcel...

Falco is also better than Dedede because has a LOT less bad matches. Dedede has trouble with a lot of the characters he can't CG, especially Falco and Meta Knight.

Mew2King and I both agreed on this S tier over AIM:

-S Tier-
Meta Knight
Snake
Falco
Dedede
Game and Watch
Diddy Kong

Dedede vs Game and Watch was considered debatable by both of us.


I'm willing to give Chillin the benefit of the doubt about Kirby because only one person seems to use him well, and does very well with him. He has a lot of gay stuff.

 

[Turbo Ether]

this is sort of how i see rob, he has no terrible matchups, and has very few negative matchups at all. on the other hand, he has some good matchups for himself, more so than marth. also looking at qualities of a character, rob has better recovery, is heavier, and is faster (attack speed) for the most part

if someone like marth (no bad matchups, no great ones) is top tier, then u also have to look at diddy and toon link as they fall into the same category imo

Toon Link has no bad matchups? That's very debateable.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Diddy and TL has their problem match-ups and you also need to look at the amount of 40/60's there are.

Both of them have quite a few of them. Especially TL. He is no where near as good as Diddy.

Inui: I'm smoking logic sir. All the data points to Falco and Marth being virtually equal in raw ability. Sorry.

The same data shows that Diddy is not on that level.

Once again, sorry.

But I DO agree that Dedede might fall in the tier list due to some crap match-ups here and there.

Chibo: ROB has own problems as well that affect his match-ups. Being limited tio gimping due to poor killing ability isn't a good thing. And he has weird match-ups where he loses to characters far worse then him. I think the ROB boards said he loses to Peach and Mario which is pretty crazy IMO.

And wtf?

Marth isn't top tier.

Marth is high tier.

It goes like this IMO.

God Tier

Metaknight

Top Tier

Snake
G&W
Dedede

High Tier

Marth
Falco
ROB


NO ONE IS ON MK'S LEVEL!!!!!!

 

[Inui]

Prove it. You haven't even attended a tournament in months, let alone entered one, so you're probably missing out on a LOT of information. You think Marth is good because you haven't experienced the MASSIVE camping going on now.

Falco has literally 0 matches that he can't win or loses badly. He has amazing camping, GUARANTEED damage on everyone, and does amazingly well against every other S tier. Who cares if the CG ends at 20%? Dash attack --> up smash = like 50 damage CG combo total. This destroys Meta Knight because he's almost at kill percent after it and then has to work around a maelstrom of lasers.

Diddy cripples a lot of characters with bananas and has tons of safe stuff and gauranteed damage. He has the SAME EXACT FLAWS AS FALCO; killing power and survivability aren't that amazing. However, he manages to have the same strengths; guaranteed damage and being very safe. His only disadvantage over Falco...is probably losing the match-up against him and not being as good against Meta Knight and Dedede.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Lasers? Which ones?

All lasers can be contended with and MK attacks faster and outranges Falco badly. He can gimp him and MK doesn't care about Falco's camping.

G&W is more of the same and so is Marth.

CG is nice. MK eats that and then...Falco has no way to control the match. He is forced to run away lest MK run through him like a typhoon.

Diddy just straight up has a worse move set then Falco IMO, but not by much. And his nanas can be used against him. So his control game is effective in different ways, but he has to be more cautious.


Diddy has more disadvantages then just to Falco and MK as well.

 

[JCaesar]

this is sort of how i see rob, he has no terrible matchups, and has very few negative matchups at all. on the other hand, he has some good matchups for himself, more so than marth. also looking at qualities of a character, rob has better recovery, is heavier, and is faster (attack speed) for the most part

?

Marth has no matchups as bad for him as MK and G&W are for ROB. Also, how is Marth's attack speed slower than ROB's? Marth's attacks are all extremely quick, including his kill moves (such as up-B out of shield). ROB's quick attacks are pokes only (jab, tilts, dsmash, fair, etc.). ROB's killing moves are all slow to come out (nair, bair, dair, usmash, not fsmash though).

I agree Diddy is massively underrated. Very few characters have an answer for bananas.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I was gonna say that I think ROB's match with MK might be 35/65 disadvantage and vs G&W is probably 40/60.

 

[TheTantalus]

lol you guys have no clue how good kirby is. his only really bad matchup is metaknight. anything else is 40-60 at worst, and he has the adv vs a ton of good characters. it's not crew bias, kirby is just incredibly underrated and i think eventually people will see that

More of you need to listen to this, Kirby will be top tier, I'll bet the amount of Kirby players doubles before the end of the year, he's THAT good

Forget DDD, Marth, Falco, Whatever, Kirby is where its at.

 

[CT Chia]

TL was just sort of an example, he obviously has some bad matchups and stuff

ROB doesnt really lack killing power, his is much better than like marth

inui/m2ks list would be better like this imo

Meta Knight
Snake
Falco
Game and Watch
ROB
Dedede
Diddy Kong

 

[Emblem Lord]

LOL!!!!

Ignore more data plz.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Inui: Prove what exactly? Lasers and CG's alone is good when you are fighting ****ty characters, but when you are up against characters that have the tools to circumvent the advantages these weapons give Falco, that's when the true test of his abilities is at hand.

And it's been shown that he can't hack it.

R.O.B, MK, Marth and G&W deal with his lasers and his CG just fine and they all have better tools then him in regards to the match-up. Better pokes, better pressure, better kill moves, and able to set-up for kills more easily.

Falco is overrated due to his lasers and CG. 4 disadvantage match-ups in the top 7 means he CANNOT be 3rd. No ****ing way. Even 4th is stretching it IMO.

I think Marth is good?

Dude, I have an EXTREMELY harsh view of competitive gaming. Here it is.

If a character can't win tournaments consistently, then that character is useless. A character is a tool used to attain victory. A tool that can't attain this has no purpose and should be discarded.

So in the grand scheme of things, yes Marth is good. It's not disputable. Good movelist and match-ups. But in a tournament setting, he is useless.

And not just him. Falco is too. And R.O.B. And Diddy and...well everyone that isn't MK and Snake really. Those two win the most and they are the most consistent.

 

[CT Chia]

yea, that is an extremely harsh view of it lol

 

[slikvik]

anyone who thinks kirby isn't **** needs to play chu and lose badly

EL, because you don't go to tournaments, I have a hard time agreeing with you. Theory smash is just that...theory

 

[Emblem Lord]

Slik since you know me personally I can't tell if you are being sarcastic.

Anyway, my "theories" are battle tested time and again since I pretty much just state facts.

And my "theories" got me into SBR.

My "theories" allowed me to help many many players take their games to the next level.

So I'm sure you understand that I'm quite fond of my "theories".

No one is saying you have to believe me. That's not what this is about. And anyway, none of what I said here is even theory. It's all proven fact although some of the match-ups might be debatable.

If I say MK has better pokes then Falco. That's not theory. That's me comparing Falco's f-tilt which is around 6 frames to MK's d-tilt which is 4 frames had more range and better recovery time.

That's observation and data.

You need to go to a tournament for that?

Really?

Seriously?

Tell me you are joking.

 

[slikvik]

lets look at wario. since grab-release came out, a lot of people have said the wario now gets ***** because of it. He apparently has tons of disadvantaged match-ups now...but warios still placing high in tourney. why is that?

frame-data allows you to make guesses as to how certain match-ups may play out. however, it doesn't necessarily play out that way in tourneys, even at high level play. Based on theory, you may determine that marth ***** kirby, but then chu beats neo convincingly in tourney.

 

[Mew2King]

Emblem lord all i have to say is you overrate marth a lot and underrate falco a lot just because marth does good on falco

also kirby doesnt have a REALLY bad matchup against MK if chu beat forte, unless you are saying as a brawl player, one of the best MKs in the world is significantly worse than the best kirby <_<

 

[Emblem Lord]

Of course there is more to a match-up then the ratio. The ratio just shows how tipped the scale is in terms of the match-up. How do we know that Chu just isn't far better then NEO?

Or that the Wario players aren't far better then the people they are playing against? And I wouldn't say he has tons of disadvantage match-ups due to this. He is pretty hard to grab from what I can see. Only Dedede and a few others seem to be able to consistently grab him, so of course he will still do well in tourney if he isn't getting grabbed and the release doesn't get the chance to be abused.

Sorry, but would you rather just arbitrarily pull numbers out of your ***?

Fighting games don't work like that. Never have. Never will. You make a theory and those theories are put to the test in tournaments and either proven as fact or disproven as false.

In the match up vs Kirby, Marth certainly has a good advantage on him. You can't use the example of a frequent tourney goer vs an infrequent one. It doesn't work.

And I know why most theorist on SWF aren't taken seriously and that's because they are idiots who don't understand game mechanics. So it's easier to dismiss them. Well, guess what?

I'm not most theorists.

I'm Emblem Lord. Nuff said.


M2K: Are you serious? I'm not even stating my opinions so how the hell can I overrate Marth or underrate Falco?

I'm going PURELY on results and match-ups. My feelings towards Falco have nothing to do with his match-up with Marth. Why would it? And STOP trying to infer how I feel. The **** is getting annoying. You don't know why I think how I think so stop saying stupid crap like that.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Emblem lord all i have to say is you overrate marth a lot and underrate falco a lot just because marth does good on falco

also kirby doesnt have a REALLY bad matchup against MK if chu beat forte, unless you are saying as a brawl player, one of the best MKs in the world is significantly worse than the best kirby <_<

This is assuming Chu and Forte are at a similar level of skill, and have equal understanding of the matchup.

 

[∫unk]

ggnorekthxbai

 

[Mew2King]

everyone is going to be better vs mk than mk is vs a random character in terms of matchup knowledge, so this advantage will always apply, at least like 90% of the time.

 

[Crizthakidd]

Emblem Lord still thinks Marth is good. spam side B and fairs all u want u will not kill unless u tip or up B outa shield by the ledge.


The top / high tiers are the only ones that matter here so i am pretty sure Diddy is high tier for sure.

ROB beats marth all day, anyday. i think i know what chilin means by kirby being mad nice but i thing hes still low high, high mid tier.

so it goes

Mk
Snake
Gnw
DDD
Falco
ROB
Diddy
Marth
C.falcon - lulz

 

[chinesahh]

why has this become the nj debate thread

 

[NJzFinest]

lol Crizthakidd, do you still only play online?

 

[ChuDat]

why has this become the nj debate thread

again, as usual wtf? I concurz

 

[Steel]

Emblem Lord still thinks Marth is good. spam side B and fairs all u want u will not kill unless u tip or up B outa shield by the ledge.


The top / high tiers are the only ones that matter here so i am pretty sure Diddy is high tier for sure.

ROB beats marth all day, anyday. i think i know what chilin means by kirby being mad nice but i thing hes still low high, high mid tier.

so it goes

Mk
Snake
Gnw
DDD
Falco
ROB
Diddy
Marth
C.falcon - lulz

like

serious post?

No way are Diddy and ROB above Marth, simple facts and tourny results prove why.

And like it has been stated, the only ones that really matter are the two at the top.

 

[hova]

terrible character analysis from the peanut gallery... i.e. NJ

 

[JesiahTEG]

I think a lottt of people underrate Lucario.

At the very LEAST he has tools that allow him to work well in any position:

-He's not limited to the ground or air, combined with his roll gives him great manueverability.
-He has range.
-He has little lag on most attacks.
-He's not particularly weak at all.
-He has a good projectile that can kill.
-He's a monster defensively, using Fsmash + X move to cover all options for the opponent approaching.
-He gets stronger the longer he lives, which is incredible.
-His combos are easily among the best in the game.

While he may only be amazing at 1 or 2 things, he's not terrible at anything besides recovery maybe, and even this isn't that big of a deal.

In terms of offense, if Lucario is creative he can easily pose a good offense.

The reason why Lucario seems so low is because there are no good Luc players besides Azen. I see the things Azen does. Creates openings using roll behind at perfect opportunites...Mixes up his moves and defensive options. It's not Lucario's fault that Azen is the only one that cares enough or is smart enough to bring out his potential.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Seriously Criz all you do when I see you post is rag on Marth.

Look I get it, he was arguably the best in Melee and you feel like he failed you in Brawl.

Get over it.

He isn't the best anymore. Oh, well. Move on and shut up about it.

And what exactly is your definition of good?

To MD/VA: It's a tier list. N*ggas are going to debate it. It became an NJ debate thread when my fellow NJers who also happen to be ignorant as f*ck tried to debate me.

 

[Mew2King]

wow you have the biggest ego ever LOL

 

[Emblem Lord]

I actually wasn't talking about you since you didn't even really say anything to me or about the tier list that much.

And really...M2K...are you really saying someone else has a huge ego?

Really?

You need to stop. Seriously.

 

[Mew2King]

no your ego is definitely bigger than mine, I'm just better at the game

 

[Emblem Lord]

You are basing this all on these last few posts?

You are hilarious.

And your opinion of me is completely unfounded.

 

[NJzFinest]

no your ego is definitely bigger than mine, I'm just better at the game

**dies** xD

 

[Emblem Lord]

^^^^^^^^Seriously.

You just gotta laugh at sh*t like this.

 

[Mew2King]

I'm basing mostly off of the Marth Char Specific forum where you seem to discreetly be praising yourself in your posts

I don't even care anymore I haven't for a long time, I was just saying.

 

[Emblem Lord]

That stuff is just jokes and I don't post nearly as much as I used too. The idea was to get the Marth community as a whole thinking intelligently about his metagame and I did that. So now I mostly sit back and let them do their thing. I give input when I feel it's needed.

Most of the time if I drop my name alot or act like I'm amazing it's to bait responses from others. Usually in a match-up discussion.

Hmmmm, and we had several of those in this thread. Interesting.

 

[TheTantalus]

no your ego is definitely bigger than mine, I'm just better at the game

epic quote is this.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I know. I just had to sig it.

 

[null55]

Lol... ugh... Can't bear it.