Data The Great Fairy Fountain II : Zelda Data & Research Repository

[KuroganeHammer]

@ BJN39 farore's faf is 81

speaking of bad moves, basically since we have all the data we can safely say:

Got buffed:
Nayru's
Farore's
Dair

Stayed the same:
Jab
Dash attack

Nerfed:
literally everything else

 

[BJN39]

Oh, thanks Aero!

So its reappear is roughly 40 frames. I was right again!

O yeah I also shamelessly put your website address in the credits section.



Also, just testing part of a little feature I want to add in here. The quick data reference table. It'll include some of the more commonly desired data, such as frames, damage, angle, and KB stats, as well as if it clanks.

Move|Hit Frame|FAF|End Lag|Adv. Drop|Adv. OoS|Damage|Angle|BKB/WKB|KBG|Clank
Jab (hits 1-2)|11, 13|24|--|--|--|2.5|361/140/140|W:40/40/30|100|NO
Jab (hit 3)|15|--|8|0|-8|3|361|35|130|NO
Dash Attack (early)|6-7|40|33|-23|-31|12/9|50|85/80|70/50|NO
Dash Attack (late)|8-10|--|30|--|--|6|50|80|50|NO
Ftilt|12-13|40|27|-15|-23|12/10|361|50|84|NO
Dtilt|5-11|25|19|-10|-18|5.5|80|20|120|YES
Utilt|7-18|30|22-11|-12|-21|7.2|100|45|110|NO
Fsmash (hits 1-4)|16, 18, 20, 22|50|--|--|--|1|25/165|W:40/50|100|NO
Fsmash (hit 5)|24|--|25|-12|-20|13|361|37|110|NO
Dsmash (front)|5-6|41|35|-23|-31|12|20/361|20|86|YES
Dsmash (back)|13-14|--|27|-16|-24|10|160/361|20|96|YES
Usmash (hits 1-4)|9, 12, 15, 18|64|--|--|--|2|90/366/200/200|W:40|105|NO
Usmash (hits 5-7)|25, 28, 31|--|--|--|--|0.8|90/366/200/200|W:40|100|NO
Usmash (hit 8)|34|--|29|-28|-36|5|88|24|214|YES*

Move|Hit Frame|FAF|End Lag|Weight Dependent|Damage|Angle|BKB/WKB|KBG|Clank
Grab|10-11|38|27| | | | | |
Dash Grab|11-12|47|35| | | | | |
Pivot Grab|11-12|44|32| | | | | |
Pummel|7|26|18|--|3|361|W:30|100|NO
Fthrow|30|50|19|YES|12|45|70|50|--
Bthrow|27|50|22|YES|11|135|80|60|--
Dthrow (hits 1-4)|25-25, 31-32, 37-38, 43-44|70|18|NO|1|40|W:25|100|NO
Dthrow (hit 5)|51|--|--|--|2|100|85|55|--
Uthrow|30|50|19|YES|11|88|50|60|--

Move|Hit Frame|FAF|End Lag|AC|Land Lag|Adv. Drop|Adv. OoS|Damage|Angle|BKB/WKB|KBG|Clank
NAir (hits 1-4)|6-7, 10-11, 14-15, 18-19|51|--|1-3, 38>|19F|--|--|2/1|366|W:77|100|NO
NAir (hit 5)|22-23|--|28|--|--|3|-13|-21|361|40|140/160|NO
FAir (sour-spots)|9-13|53|43|1-3, 50>|23F|-14|-22|4|361|5|80/96|YES
FAir (sweet-spot)|9|--|--|--|--|-15|-23|20|361|24|95|NO
BAir (sour-spots)|6-9|53|46|1-2, 52>|25F|-16|-24|4|361|5|80/96|YES
BAir (sweet-spot)|6|--|--|--|--|-17|-25|20|361|28|96|NO
DAir (sour-spots)|15-24|45|20|1-3, 40>|18F|--|--|5/4|275|5/0|90/70|YES
DAir (sweet-spot)|14|--|30|--|--|-7|-15|16|270|30|65|YES
UAir|14-16|55|40|1-4, 55>|19F|--|--|15|90|30|90|NO

Spoiler

Zelda

Jumpsquat 6F -> 5F
Walk Speed 0.87 -> 0.95
Run Speed 1.3 -> 1.4
Air Speed 1.04 -> 1.09
Air Acceleration 0.055 -> 0.09

Airdodge
        invincible 3-28 -> 3-27
        FAF 34 -> 33

Grab
        hitframe 10-11 -> 8-9
        FAF 38 -> 36

Dash Grab
        hitframe 11-12 -> 9-10
        FAF 47 -> 45

Pivot Grab x-stretch -16.7 -> -18.7

Fthrow kbg 50 -> 54

Bthrow kbg 60 -> 65

Jab
        final hit angle 361 -> 48
    loop hitboxes
        hitframe 11, 13 -> 11-14
        hitbox 2 size 4.0 -> 5.0
        rehit rate n/a -> 2

Ftilt
        FAF 38 -> 35
        damage 12/10/10 -> 13/11/11
        hitbox 2 z-stretch n/a -> -4.0

Dtilt
        damage 5.5 -> 7.5
        bkb 20 -> 25
        kbg 120 -> 100

Utilt hit duration 12 -> 14

Fsmash
        FAF 50 -> 45
    loop hitboxes
        hitframe 16, 18, 20, 22 -> 16-23
        rehit rate n/a -> 2

Dsmash
        FAF 38 -> 35
        right leg intangibility added F5-14

Usmash
        FAF 64 -> 59
        final hit kbg 214 -> 217
    loop hitboxes
        hits 1-4 hitframe 9, 12, 15, 18 -> 9-20
        hits 5-7 hitframe 25, 28, 31 -> 25-33
        rehit rate n/a -> 3

NAir
        FAF 51 -> 46
        landing lag 19 -> 13
        final hitboxes 0/1 size 4.0 -> 5.0
    loop hitboxes
        hitframe 6-7, 10-11, 14-15, 18-19 -> 6-20
        damage 2.5/1.5 -> 2/2
        rehit rate n/a -> 4

FAir/BAir
        landing lag 23/25 -> 19/22
        hitbox 0 size 1.9 -> 2.5
        hitbox 3 size 5.0 -> 6.0
    hitboxes 1/2/3
        damage 4 -> 7
        bkb 5/5/5 -> 20/20/30
        kbg 80/80/96 -> 70/70/80

DAir
        FAF 45 -> 40
        damage 16/5/4 -> 17/6/5
        sweet-spot kbg 65 -> 62

UAir
        FAF 55 -> 40
        Autocancel <4/55> -> <4/45>

Nayru's Love
    loop hitboxes
        damage 2/1 -> 3/2
        x1 -4.0/-10.0 -> -5.0/-11.0
        x2 4.0/10.0 -> 5.0/11.0
    final hitboxes
        damage 5/4 -> 6/5

Phantom Slash
        phantom attacks act as projectile -> melee
        release animation FAF 47 -> 43
        phantom health 13.0 -> 16.0
        no charge, damage 6-8 -> 7-9
    full charge, hit 1
        angle 62 -> 82
        sdi x1 -> x0
    full charge, hit 2
        duration 4F -> 6F
        size 4.0/4.5/5.5 -> 4.5/5.5/6.5

Nayru's Passion damage 15 -> 17

Farore's Windfall ledge snap no -> yes

Spoiler

Din's Fire
    detonation
        FAF 40 -> 35
        hitframe 16 -> 8
        ledgesnap added frame 1 and on
        damage 7/3 -> 8/5
        size 2.1/4.5 -> 2.6/5.6
        size scaling altered

NAir
        FAF 51 -> 48
        landing lag 19 -> 16
    final hitboxes
        bkb 40/40/40/40 -> 55/55/55/55
        kbg 130/130/110/110 -> 120/120/100/100
        size 4.0/4.0/6.0/6.0 -> 5.0/5.0/6.0/6.0

Farore's Wind
        disappear (g) hitbox angle 91 -> 90
        reappear (g) hitbox 1 size 15.0 -> 16.0
        reappear (a) hitbox 0/1 size 11.0/16.0 -> 11.5/17.5

Diddy

Dtilt kbg 75 -> 83

FAir late hitbox size 5.0 -> 4.0

Spoiler

 

[Fuji'n]

"Rushdown"

Should be glass cannon imo.

and I don't think Zelda is hard to pick up at all. She's simple and easy, just bad and hard to win with when someone knows the match up.

edit: but I guess her lagning kicks not being spammable now and spacing with farore's makes her a bit harder than brawl, but her recovery is super easy in this game.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I wanted to go with archetypes that fit standard terminology, "glass cannon" isn't an archetype really.

I'm planning on removing those anyway because they're quite subjective.

Difficulty is basically "how much of the games fundamentals do you need to be good at to play this character at a high/top level?"

So in Zelda's case it's spacing needs to be on point etc

I will PM you with other ones I've done if you like.

 

[Meru.]

nvm this post

 

[Rickster]

Thanks for adding the end lag data! I was actually going to male a post requesting it, but then I saw that the OP had been updated, haha. But... I'm afraid I'll get depressed if I look at it.

Also what does "FAF" mean? I'm assuming it's something related to endlag (or it IS endlag).

EDIT: WAIT NEVERMIND it's explained in the OP. I somehow missed that...

 

[evmaxy54]

Thanks for adding the end lag data! I was actually going to male a post requesting it, but then I saw that the OP had been updated, haha. But... I'm afraid I'll get depressed if I look at it.

Also what does "FAF" mean? I'm assuming it's something related to endlag (or it IS endlag).

FAF = First Actionable Frame

It's the first available frame you can act out of an animation (attack or dodge). For example, FW has a FAF of 81, meaning it takes 81 frames from first inputting FW until you can do something (like move left or right when you're in the air after the reappearance).

The endlag of a move is the FAF of the move minus the last frame where an hitbox is active (if it is an attack) or the last frame you are invincible (from a dodge)

I.E. Zelda's Jab has an FAF of 24 & the last frame of it's hitbox is 15, so it would be: 24 - 15 = 9 frames endlag

I hope I've explained this clearly & correctly lol

Also Zelda's FAF data is so depressing yea ;_;

---

Oh yeah @ BJN39 I have an idea. Like sometime last week or so I was in the lab I found out that when the opponent is grabbing the ledge, Dtilt into Fair & Dtilt into Ftilt are true kill combos at about 90-100% without Rage so I might sometime try to make recordings of the % needed for this to work on all the characters & some of the stages. While it's certainly situational, but I think this would be really helpful for characters that don't have hitboxes on their recoveries like Rosa & MM.

/rambleover

 

[Meru.]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pD_RJ1Emb__4m3FjU2o1lDjiwVd-f2l5j7vGsuFmzEo/edit?usp=sharing

The Zelda spreadsheet containing all of her frame data translated.

Includes her specials. Get a tissue box with you, cause you're not going to like it.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It's already in the OP.

Also, it's not public.

 

[Meru.]

It's already in the OP.

Also, it's not public.

LOL oops. I fixed it now.

Not that it really matters if everything is in the OP. Cant find it in the OP though but maybe Im just blind. found it, I'm just blind

 

[BJN39]

Actually I didn't have that throw frame data, (Or a tiny bit of the specifics in the specials frame data.) will be adding that in!

 

[RyokoYaksa]

The data table makes me happy and yet so sad at the same time.

At least I wasn't imagining that Fsmash was laggier in this game.

 

[Zylach]

I knew Zelda's aerial game was mediocre but... that's downright pathetic. Averaging 50 frames until she can act on all aerials means she should basically never be in the air unless she can guarantee a hit (sweetspotted, not sourspotted) otherwise she's getting punished. Period. Not to mention her furthest reaching move is fsmash (besides phantom) with a startup of 16 frames and she can't act until frame 49. I guess spacing with fsmash was riskier than I thought and that answers a lot of questions about why I can't use fsmash against Mario. Within those 16 startup frames, he can land with a nair and initiate a dsmash before our attack even comes out. I swear, Mario is so stupid.

 

[BJN39]

I knew Zelda's aerial game was mediocre but... that's downright pathetic. Averaging 50 frames until she can act on all aerials means she should basically never be in the air unless she can guarantee a hit (sweetspotted, not sourspotted) otherwise she's getting punished. Period. Not to mention her furthest reaching move is fsmash (besides phantom) with a startup of 16 frames and she can't act until frame 49. I guess spacing with fsmash was riskier than I thought and that answers a lot of questions about why I can't use fsmash against Mario. Within those 16 startup frames, he can land with a nair and initiate a dsmash before our attack even comes out. I swear, Mario is so stupid.

Don't forget to lol at ha Usmash, which legitimately has more endla--

Eaux

I was gonna make a joke about how bad the endlag on Usmash is by comparing it to something of Palutena's

But literally everything she has that's comparable in use to Zelda's Usmash has even more endlag, whoops.

Still, it has over 30F of endlag *cries* (Note: A move with subpar/not very good endlag would be around 24-26F, as a comparison to how sad Usmash's endlag is.) it further confirms that's my Usmash addiction is very bad.

...

YOU CAN'T STOP ME.

 

[Rickster]

If your opponent does actually manage to live until 130+, would Usmash actually be a viable KO option? I get a decent amount of late KOs with it.

Besides KOing, I think Usmash is still a good damage racker and airdodge punisher.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

If your opponent does actually manage to live until 130+, would Usmash actually be a viable KO option? I get a decent amount of late KOs with it.

Besides KOing, I think Usmash is still a good damage racker and airdodge punisher.

If you can actually hit with it, then sure :^) Though, at that point you might as well just go for a bthrow, dsmash, ftilt or wait 20 more % and use utilt. I'd only use it to kill at 130% as an anti-air or to read an airdodge

 

[BJN39]

^Basically what S.F.L.R said, but I'm a slow typer.

If your opponent gets panicky with dodges at high percent, learning their dodging habits will more than likely net you a KO with Usmash, as long as it doesn't happen to drop them once you've managed to land it, ofc beating dodges is one of the situations where it has a higher chance of connecting, since the dropping usually happens between hits 4 and 5, but b/c they're dodging you'll likely START by hitting with hit 5.

 

[Zylach]

Yeah, I use usmash very rarely, probably less than phantom in all honesty. It's only really useful for the hardest of punishes on airdodges and even then, there are better options. I've probably been punished more often for using usmash than I've used it to successfully punish someone.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I think the OP of this thread could be uncluttered so people like @ M Meru. can find what they're looking for.

I don't feel a table of contents is necessary, and complex data tables could probably be spoilered.

 

[Furret]

Yeah, I use usmash very rarely, probably less than phantom in all honesty. It's only really useful for the hardest of punishes on airdodges and even then, there are better options. I've probably been punished more often for using usmash than I've used it to successfully punish someone.

I don't up smash often but when I do,
it was supposed to be an up tilt

 

[Meru.]

Phantom is really awful, this is way worse than I had thought. One question though. The data says it comes out on frame 31. Is this where the hits comes out of where Phantom appears? If frame 31 is where Phantom appears, it has 29 frames of start-up, the hitbox comes out of 42 and she will lag till 70. If it's where it hits, Phantom appears at 22, hits (11-9=) nine frames later at 31 and then has 39 frames of lag (lol).

I'm assuming its the former but either way it's really really horrible.

 

[BJN39]

Phantom is really awful, this is way worse than I had thought. One question though. The data says it comes out on frame 31. Is this where the hits comes out of where Phantom appears? If frame 31 is where Phantom appears, it has 29 frames of start-up, the hitbox comes out of 42 and she will lag till 70. If it's where it hits, Phantom appears at 22, hits (11-9=) nine frames later at 31 and then has 39 frames of lag (lol).

I'm assuming its the former but either way it's really really horrible.

If I'm reading it correctly;

From my understanding, the "frame 31" hit is the earliest it will hit with the sword at no charge, not when the Phantom appears/body pushy hit-box

So, it would appear at frame 22. This would also make it match with the release animation being roughly 50 frames long.

I think the OP of this thread could be uncluttered so people like @ M Meru. can find what they're looking for.

I don't feel a table of contents is necessary, and complex data tables could probably be spoilered.

No ToC? I'll try doing these. We'll see if the posts just want to just SD when I try this :3

Is there any reason aside quoting issues to spoiler instead of quote boxing? Becasue I'm sort of partial to the way quote boxing looks. :/

 

[Meru.]

If I'm reading it correctly;

From my understanding, the "frame 31" hit is the earliest it will hit with the sword at no charge, not when the Phantom appears/body pushy hit-box

So, it would appear at frame 22. This would also make it match with the release animation being roughly 50 frames long.

Which would mean it has more than half a second of lag. Might as well Farore's Wind into my opponent dsfhkghjkfdjk.

Dear Phantom,

We are never. ever. EVER getting back together.

 

[BJN39]

So please bear with me as I am working towards fixing the OP. It is really drunk right now. x_x

 

[Meru.]

@ KuroganeHammer @ BJN39 Do you guys happen to know the formula of shieldstun? With her ending lag info acquired, the only thing that's missing now is frames on shield.

I also need it for Peachy

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I don't, sorry.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Also @ M Meru. I'll be doing a page similar to this for Peach so please don't be offended if you see a topic/guide go up for the Peach boards.

 

[Gay Ginger]

Speaking of UpSmash, why can't its damage spread be more like Fsmash?

I wish it would deal 1%,1%,1%,1%,.80%,.80%,.80%,9% (still =15.4%) instead. Because since it's only really useful for catching dodges, most hits don't usually connect, and it's pathetic to deal 5-10% for a move that leaves us so open and has average KO power. The last hit should guarantee most of the damage like Fsmash does.

 

[Furret]

pathetic for a move that leaves us so open and has average KO power.

most of Zelda's moves in smash 4

 

[Meru.]

Also @ M Meru. I'll be doing a page similar to this for Peach so please don't be offended if you see a topic/guide go up for the Peach boards.

Offended????? I'll send you a package of heart-shaped chocolates if you'd be so kind to make something like that for us <33

 

[BJN39]

Speaking of being thankful for @ KuroganeHammer

I HAVE DONE A SACRED CLEANSING OF THE OP!

Thanks quite a bit to him for things he's mentioned in the past about rich text editor. I went through and spent half an hour deleting 347804227 useless extra text edit tags.

The result is that the OP now has the standard size back at normal, instead of size 3, and the post is back to being standard colored! (Purple!!) instead of being recolored everywhere. It should be an easier load to quote for referencing as well!

I plan on fixing the second post soon as well.

 

[Zylach]

Speaking of being thankful for @ KuroganeHammer

I HAVE DONE A SACRED CLEANSING OF THE OP!

Thanks quite a bit to him for things he's mentioned in the past about rich text editor. I went through and spent half an hour deleting 347804227 useless extra text edit tags.

The result is that the OP now has the standard size back at normal, instead of size 3, and the post is back to being standard colored! (Purple!!) instead of being recolored everywhere. It should be an easier load to quote for referencing as well!

I plan on fixing the second post soon as well.

That's so much cleaner. Great job.

I like that you kept the (words go here) parts. Those were my favorite

 

[BJN39]

That's so much cleaner. Great job.

I like that you kept the (words go here) parts. Those were my favorite

<3

LOL those "(Words go here.)" are placeholder until I actually get around to adding the appropriate notes there. I like them there though, and the idea that there will be more in those spots sometime in the future.

 

[Rickster]

Wow, the OP looks so refined now. Nice work BJN!

Btw thanks @ KuroganeHammer for providing the endlag data and BJN for adding it in. They're really helping me compare moves like:
Jab vs Dtilt
Ftilt vs Fsmash
Jab vs Utilt
Dtilt vs Utilt

I was surprised to find out that :

Jab is actually less laggy than Dtilt

Ftilt is faster than Fsmash except it has 1 more frame of lag

I've been trying to compare these moves for a LONG time, but now I finally have it all figured out! Thanks again~

 

[Valamway]

This OP might be the most well-organized frame data I've seen...
At least, I think it is.
I might just be biased towards the Zelda boards.

Is there any info floating around out there on UpB angles?
If not, I suggest it for a future research project.
Although I guess it would be related to LC-Farore...

As far as I can tell, it works at least somewhat similarly to Melee.

I personally found around 30 unique angles between the and notches, and there do appear to still be dead zones surrounding the cardinal directions.
Even assuming I missed a few unique angles (and I could have), this would mean there could very well be an angle for every degree of the circle, with the exception of the dozen or so degrees immediately to either side of every cardinal direction.

 

[BJN39]

So I was just looking through the necro Fairy Fountain (KayLo!'s Brawl Zelda data thread.) and I wonder if it's still possible to dodge TL's arrows with the Din's Fire startup animation~

 

[evmaxy54]

So far my findings of Dtilt on ledge grabbing opponent into Fair:

Spoiler: 0% Rage

And with Dtilt on ledge grabbing opponent into Ftilt:

Spoiler: 0% Rage

All this was done in training mode where all moves are fresh & Rage isn't taken into account. Also these two combos don't work if the opponent DIs away when hit by Dtilt. If they DI towards you after Dtilt, it could set up for an Uair at the right %s if the situation ever arises (it shouldn't).

Also the timing is hella strict so be wary of that.

I'm also thinking of recording the %s at various points of Rage but that is going to be much harder to get the %s for since there's no way of seeing if the combo is true or not.

 

[evmaxy54]

Double post but this kinda needs to have attention in its own right.

I've also been looking at combos from an Uthrow recently

Spoiler: Uthrow -> Usmash (26%)

Spoiler: Uthrow -> Utilt (18%)

Spoiler: Uthrow -> Uair (26%)

"All this was done in training mode where all moves are fresh & Rage isn't taken into account." DI wasn't taken into account outside the Uthrow -> Uair done via the AI. I will continue to update this & the Dtilt combos on hanging opponents when I can be arsed. Help for anything of these or the Dtilt ledge combos would be greatly appreciated.

Also, on tall characters & if they missed the tech, FH Dair into LK is another true combo that works about mid to high %s. Uair can be substituted if they get too high & will p likely kill (I probably will get round to getting %s eventually but I want to do the Dtilt combos first & finish the Uthrow ones since they seem more practical).
You can technically do this Dair -> LK with a SH Dair & hit shorter characters but it's much more situational because you have to be remain airborne after the Dair & use your DJ

 

[BJN39]

Double post but this kinda needs to have attention in its own right.

I've also been looking at combos from an Uthrow recently

Spoiler: Uthrow -> Usmash (26%)

Spoiler: Uthrow -> Utilt (18%)

Spoiler: Uthrow -> Uair (26%)

"All this was done in training mode where all moves are fresh & Rage isn't taken into account." DI wasn't taken into account outside the Uthrow -> Uair done via the AI. I will continue to update this & the Dtilt combos on hanging opponents when I can be arsed. Help for anything of these or the Dtilt ledge combos would be greatly appreciated.

Also, on tall characters & if they missed the tech, FH Dair into LK is another true combo that works about mid to high %s. Uair can be substituted if they get too high & will p likely kill (I probably will get round to getting %s eventually but I want to do the Dtilt combos first & finish the Uthrow ones since they seem more practical).
You can technically do this Dair -> LK with a SH Dair & hit shorter characters but it's much more situational because you have to be remain airborne after the Dair & use your DJ

Fun fact: I've double posted on the Brawl Zelda social before in the past; ofc It was when there was activity deaths gaps when I wanted to try and revive it and waiting for the next post would be lol rip.

These Uthrow combos are under the circumstance you catch you opponent not jumping, (At least for the grounded followup variations.) right?

 

[evmaxy54]

Fun fact: I've double posted on the Brawl Zelda social before in the past; ofc It was when there was activity deaths gaps when I wanted to try and revive it and waiting for the next post would be lol rip.

These Uthrow combos are under the circumstance you catch you opponent not jumping, (At least for the grounded followup variations.) right?

Fair enough lol

The Uthrow combos are true combos. I got someone just there now to spam jump while stuck in the Uthrow animation & the hit stun (trying to buffer a jump) & it still registered as a combo in training mode.