Data The Great Fairy Fountain II : Zelda Data & Research Repository

[BJN39]

In case no one has noticed, I've been updating the Usmash percent chart a couple posts up somewhat frequently.

Edit : Eaux, because of the page change, I'll just update it in this post whenever I add characters.

3DS |Good DI 0% Rage |Good DI 100% Rage |Good DI 150% Rage
|105%|90%|80%
|99%|85%|75%
|93%|80%|73%
|116%|100%|89%
|102%|88%|80%
|89%|75%|68%
|109%|93%|85%
|83%|74%|65%
|103%|90%|79%
|94%|80%|71%
|93%|79%|73%
|112%|99%|86%
|125%|110%|98%
|80%|68%|60%
|99%|87%|77%

Spoiler: Phantom stuff

unknown 079
(unk=0.51380246, bone?=1990, unk=0, float=0.000000, float=0.000000, float=0.000000, unk=0, unk=0, float=1.000000, unk=1, )

unknown 06F (external graphic)
(unk=0.51380254, unk=0, float=0.000000, float=10.000000, float=0.000000, float=0.000000, float=0.000000, float=0.000000, float=1.000000, unk=1, )

unknown 00C
(unk=176, unk=6, bone?=2000, unk=0.1069547520, unk=0, float=0.000000, bone?=2000, float=1.500000, float=0.000000, float=25.000000, unk=1, unk=0.51380255, bone=2000, unk=0.1072483531, unk=0.1057803467, unk=0, float=0.000000, float=0.000000, float=0.000000, float=1.000000, )

unknown 08A (unk=0.51380254, unk=0, unk=0, )
unknown 00B (unk=4, )

unknown 060
(unk=0.51380259, unk=0, float=0.000000, float=5.000000, float=0.000000, float=0.000000, float=0.000000, float=0.000000, float=1.150000, float=0.000000, float=0.000000, float=0.000000, float=0.000000, float=0.000000, float=0.000000, unk=1, )

Spoiler: Combo tabling idea wip

Dthrow -> FH NAir

Damage: 6.0% -> 7.0%/11.0% = 13.0%/17.0% (10 hit combo)
Difficulty: Easy​

17% for front side NAir, 13% for back side NAir. Depending on timing and character, hit 1 of NAir may potentially not connect, lowering the damage total to 12%/15%. Has a small variance in execution speed, which can help nail down DI or hitting all hits of NAir. Back side NAir can miss entirely if the opponent DIs outward. This can be remedied by doing the dash turn FH NAir front side variant.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Been messing around with dtilt > fast fall nair > elevator/usmash for the past half hour and it seems to be a really reliable kill setup. It kills at even stupider percents than the regular elevator because of the dtilt and nair :^) Not that hard to pull off either once you get the nair timing down. If you consistently do this setup you can condition an airdodge and then get an even harder punish by reading that

Another thing I found out, idk how useful it'll be tho, is that if you mess up the timing on the nair and your opponent hits the floor but doesn't tech, if you hit them with any hit of nair besides the last while they're just about to hit the floor, it'll still pop them up in the perfect position for an elevator or umash. Doing an elevator from this doesn't work on very light or floaty characters tho bc they get sent up too high for it. However usmash seems to work on them

Edit: Figured I should mention, this isn't a true combo but instead a setup if your opponent does nothing after the dtilt or if they airdodge

 

[Zylach]

Been messing around with dtilt > fast fall nair > elevator/usmash for the past half hour and it seems to be a really reliable kill setup. It kills at even stupider percents than the regular elevator because of the dtilt and nair :^) Not that hard to pull off either once you get the nair timing down. If you consistently do this setup you can condition an airdodge and then get an even harder punish by reading that

Another thing I found out, idk how useful it'll be tho, is that if you mess up the timing on the nair and your opponent hits the floor but doesn't tech, if you hit them with any hit of nair besides the last while they're just about to hit the floor, it'll still pop them up in the perfect position for an elevator or umash. Doing an elevator from this doesn't work on very light or floaty characters tho bc they get sent up too high for it. However usmash seems to work on them

Edit: Figured I should mention, this isn't a true combo but instead a setup if your opponent does nothing after the dtilt or if they airdodge

Good to know it's not a true combo though FF nair>FW is since we literally drag them into the position we want for the elevator.

 

[Rickster]

I'm seriously loving the Nair buff. Guaranteed combos and kill setups from a falling Nair? YES. It also helps that falling Nairs aren't that uncommon. Lately I've been testing falling Nair after baiting an airdodge from Dthrow. Honestly, it might be better to Nair>Elevator after an airdodge bait instead of trying for a kick.

So happy right now!

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

So according to the competitive discussion thread about patch changes, Nair, Uair, and Dair all have decreased landing lag to 18/19 frames. I haven't seen anyone else mention this in the Zelda section here (as a confirmation, not speculation), but I knew they felt faster. Maybe that's why our Nair combos are easier now, we have a little bit less of a wait for follow ups.

 

[Rickster]

The good sistren @ KuroganeHammer and @ BJN39 already blessed us with the excellent news.

But yeah that's probably why they actually combo now. The 1% extra damage might be helping just a tiny bit too.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It seems pretty random to reduce the landing lag for them by 3 frames each, but to not touch f/bair.

 

[Zylach]

I'm seriously loving the Nair buff. Guaranteed combos and kill setups from a falling Nair? YES. It also helps that falling Nairs aren't that uncommon. Lately I've been testing falling Nair after baiting an airdodge from Dthrow. Honestly, it might be better to Nair>Elevator after an airdodge bait instead of trying for a kick.

So happy right now!

I haven't even found it necessary to go for kicks unless I see an opportunity for them where a falling nair wouldn't net me a kill. In all honesty, falling nair to anything feels like a better option but I like to play a safer game so it might just be me.

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

It seems pretty random to reduce the landing lag for them by 3 frames each, but to not touch f/bair.

Gimme that Melee landing lag. That's what we need to get her to solid Mid tier.

 

[BJN39]

Gimme that Melee landing lag. That's what we need to get her to solid Mid tier.

Melee:
NAir - 18F
FAir - 18F
BAir - 18F
DAir - 24F
UAir - 24F

Source.

I don't know if you actually want those. The only really better ones are FAir and BAir. UAir and DAir get strictly worse. You want L-Cancelling.

Edit : I suppose some people would trade DAir and UAir landing lags for FAir adn BAir, but IDK.

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

Oh, I just meant Fair/Bair. Let's stay away from the others. Sorry for not clarifying.

 

[Rickster]

I wanna say that Nair is possibly Zelda's best move now, or at least up there.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I forgot to mention earlier, but one of the easiest characters to pull dtilt > nair > elevator/usmash on is Sheik. THANK YOU SAKURATENA

 

[Rickster]

ZSS is also susceptible to the deadly falling Nair. THANK YOU SAKURATENA INDEED.

 

[evmaxy54]

I wanna say that Nair is possibly Zelda's best move now, or at least up there.

It's certainly one of her better moves

But her Jab tho

 

[BJN39]

Just testing a complex data table with the stats on each others' vertical and horizontal brackets to see how it looks. I may change them all this way in the future.

Spoiler: JAB

hit-box|hit-frame|duration|ID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|size|z/y/x|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Loop hitbox 1|11, 13|1F|0|14|2.0|361|0|40|100|2.5|z=3, y=0, x=0|magic|×1|×1|no|0|SetLoop=2
Loop hitbox 2|11, 13|1F|1|18|2.0|361|0|30|100|3|z=0, y=0, x=0|magic|×1|×1|no|0|SetLoop=2
Loop hitbox 3|11, 13|1F|2|0|2.0|80|0|7|100|4|z=0, y=12.5, x=13|magic|×1|×1|no|0|SetLoop=2
Final hitbox 1|15|1F|0|0|2.0|361|24|0|150|6|z=0, y=12.5, x=13|magic|×1|×1|no|0|
Final hitbox 2|15|1F|1|18|2.0|361|24|0|150|3|z=0, y=0, x=0|magic|×1|×1|no|0|
Final hitbox 3|15|1F|2|14|2.0|361|24|0|150|2.5|z=3, y=0, x=0|magic|×1|×1|no|0|

Spoiler: DASH ATTACK

hit-box|hit-frame|duration|ID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|size|z/y/x|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Sweet-spot|6|2F|0|0|12.0|50|85|0|70|2.2|z=0, y=10, x=12.8|magic|×1.2|×1|no|0|stretchy hit-box
Early sour-spot|6|2F|1|0|9.0|50|80|0|50|5|z=0, y=10, x=7.8 / z=0, y=10, x=13.8|magic|×1|×1|no|0|stretchy hit-box
Late sour-spot|8|3F|0|0|6.0|50|80|0|50|4.8|z=0, y=10, x=7.8 / z=0, y=10, x=13.8|magic|×1|×1|no|0|stretchy hit-box

Spoiler: FORWARD TILT

hit-box|hit-frame|duration|ID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|size|z/y/x|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Sweet-spot|12|2F|0|17|12.0|361|50|0|84|4|z=3, y=0, x=0|slash|×1|×1|no|0|
Sour-spot 1|12|2F|1|17|10.0|361|50|0|84|3.5|z=0, y=0, x=0|slash|×1|×1|no|0|
Sour-spot 2|12|2F|2|16|10.0|361|50|0|84|3|z=-1, y=0, x=0|slash|×1|×1|no|0|

Spoiler: DOWN TILT

hit-box|hit-frame|duration|ID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|size|z/y/x|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Hitbox|5|7F|1|9|4.5|80|20|0|120|3.6|z=6, y=0, x=0 / z=-4.08, y=0, x=0|none|×1|×1|yes|0|stretchy hit-box / 40% trip rate

Spoiler: UP TILT

hit-box|hit-frame|duration|ID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|size|z/y/x|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Hitbox 1|7|12F|0|22|7.2 [1.0.4] |100|45|0|110|5|z=4, y=0, x=0|magic|×1|×1|no|0|
Hitbox 2|7|12F|1|22|7.2 [1.0.4] |100|45|0|110|3|z=1, y=0, x=0|magic|×1|×1|no|0|
Hitbox 3|7|12F|2|21|7.2 [1.0.4] |100|45|0|110|3|z=0, y=0, x=0|magic|×1|×1|no|0|

Spoiler: FORWARD SMASH

hit-box|hit-frame|duration|ID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|size|z/y/x|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Inner Loop hitbox|16, 18, 20, 22|1F|0|0|1.0|25 [1.0.6] |0|40 [1.0.6] |100|4.2 [1.0.6] |z=0, y=9.1, x=8 [1.0.6] |none|×1|×1|no|0|SetLoop=4
Outer Loop hitbox|16, 18, 20, 22|1F|1|0|1.0|165 [1.0.6] |0|50 [1.0.6] |100|4.5 [1.0.6] |z=0, y=9.1, x=16 [1.0.6] |none|×1|×1|no|0|SetLoop=4
Inner Final hitbox|24|1F|0|0|13.0|361|37|0|110|5.5 [1.0.6] |z=0, y=9.1, x=9.5 [1.0.6] |magic|×1|×1|no|0|
Outer Final hitbox|24|1F|1|0|13.0|361|37|0|110|6 [1.0.6] |z=0, y=9.1, x=16 [1.0.6] |magic|×1|×1|no|0|

Spoiler: DOWN SMASH

hit-box|hit-frame|duration|ID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|size|z/y/x|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Front sweet-spot|5|2F|0|0|12.0|20|20|0|86|4.2|z=0,y=3, x=12.5|none|×1|×1|yes|0|40% trip rate
Front sour-spot|5|2F|1|0|12.0|361|20|0|86|3|z=0, y=5, x=7 / z=0, y=3, x=11|none|×1|×1|yes|0|stretchy hit-box / 40% trip rate
Back sweet-spot|13|2F|0|0|10.0|160|20|0|96|4.2|z=0,y=3, x=-11|none|×1|×1|yes|0|40% trip rate
Back sour-spot|13|2F|1|0|10.0|361|20|0|96|3|z=0, y=7, x=-4.5 / z=0, y=3, x=-9|none|×1|×1|yes|0|stretchy hit-box / 40% trip rate

Spoiler: UP SMASH

hit-box|hit-frame|duration|ID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|size|z/y/x|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Bottom Loop 1 hitbox|9, 12, 15, 18|1F|0|0|2.0|90|0|40|105|3.5 [1.0.8] |z=0, y=11, z=0|magic|×0.5|×0.5 [1.0.8] |no|0|SetLoop=4
Top Loop 1 hitbox|9, 12, 15, 18|1F|3|0|2.0|366|0|40 [1.0.8] |105|4.3 [1.0.8] |z=0, y=18, z=0|magic|×0.5|×0.5 [1.0.8] |no|0|SetLoop=4
Back Loop 1 hitbox|9, 12, 15, 18|1F|1|0|2.0|200|0|40 [1.0.8] |105|3.5 [1.0.8] |z=0, y=17, z=-5|magic|×0.5|×0.5 [1.0.8] |no|0|SetLoop=4
Front Loop 1 hitbox|9, 12, 15, 18|1F|2|0|2.0|200|0|40 [1.0.8] |105|3.5 [1.0.8] |z=0, y=17, z=5|magic|×0.5|×0.5 [1.0.8] |no|0|SetLoop=4
Bottom Loop 2 hitbox|25, 28, 31|1F|0|0|0.8|90|0|40|100|3.5 [1.0.8] |z=0, y=11, z=0|magic|×1|×0.5 [1.0.8] |no|0|SetLoop=3
Top Loop 2 hitbox|25, 28, 31|1F|3|0|0.8|366|0|40 [1.0.8] |100|4.3 [1.0.8] |z=0, y=18, z=0|magic|×1|×0.5 [1.0.8] |no|0|SetLoop=3
Back Loop 2 hitbox|25, 28, 31|1F|1|0|0.8|200|0|40 [1.0.8] |100|3.5 [1.0.8] |z=0, y=17, z=-5|magic|×1|×0.5 [1.0.8] |no|0|SetLoop=3
Front Loop 2 hitbox|25, 28, 31|1F|2|0|0.8|200|0|40 [1.0.8] |100|3.5 [1.0.8] |z=0, y=17, z=5|magic|×1|×0.5 [1.0.8] |no|0|SetLoop=3
Top Final hitbox|34|1F|0|0|5.0|88|24|0|214 [1.0.8] |7|z=0, y=21, x=0|magic|×2|×1|yes*|0|only hits grounded targets
Back Final hitbox|34|1F|1|0|5.0|88|24|0|214 [1.0.8] |7.5|z=0, y=18, x=-6|magic|×2|×1|yes*|0|
Front Final hitbox|34|1F|2|0|5.0|88|24|0|214 [1.0.8] |7.5|z=0, y=18, x=6|magic|×2|×1|yes*|0|
Bottom Final hitbox|34|1F|3|0|5.0|88|24|0|214 [1.0.8] |8|z=0, y=15, x=0|magic|×2|×1|yes*|0|

Spoiler: NEUTRAL AERIAL

hit-box|hit-frame|duration|ID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|size|z/y/x|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Front Loop hitbox|6, 10, 14, 18|2F|0 [1.0.8] |0|2.0 [1.0.8] |366|0|77|100|3|z=0, y=11, x=7.6|none|×1|×0|no|0|SetLoop=4
Back Loop hitbox|6, 10, 14, 18|2F|1 [1.0.8] |0|1.0 [1.0.8] |366|0|77|100|3|z=0, y=12, x=-6|none|×1|×0|no|0|SetLoop=4
Back Final hitbox|22|2F|0|0|3.0|361|40|0|160|4|z=0, y=12, x=-6|magic|×1|×0|no|0|
Front Final hitbox|22|2F|1|0|3.0|361|40|0|160|4|z=0, y=11, x=7.6|magic|×1|×0|no|0|
Bottom Final hitbox|22|2F|2|3|3.0|361|40|0|140|6|z=0, y=0, x=0|magic|×1|×0|no|0|
Top Final hitbox|22|2F|3|19|3.0|361|40|0|140|6|z=0, y=0, x=0|magic|×1|×0|no|0|

Spoiler: FORWARD AERIAL

hit-box|hit-frame|duration|ID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|size|z/y/x|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Sweet-spot|9|1F|0|7|20.0|361|24|0|95|1.9|z=0, y=0, x=0|magic|×1.5|×0|no|0|
Sour-spot 1|9|5F|1|5|4.0|361|5|0|80|4|z=0, y=0, x=0|none|×1|×1|yes|0|
Sour-spot 2|9|5F|2|3|4.0|361|5|0|80|4.5|z=0, y=0, x=0|none|×1|×1|yes|0|
Sour-spot 3|9|5F|3|7|4.0|361|5|0|96|5|z=0, y=0, x=0|none|×1|×1|yes|0|

Spoiler: BACK AERIAL

hit-box|hit-frame|duration|ID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|size|z/y/x|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Sweet-spot|6|1F|0|11|20.0|361|28|0|96|1.9|z=0, y=0, x=0|magic|×1.5|×0|no|0|
Sour-spot 1|6|4F|1|9|4.0|361|5|0|80|4|z=0, y=0, x=0|none|×1|×1|yes|0|
Sour-spot 2|6|4F|2|3|4.0|361|5|0|80|4.5|z=0, y=0, x=0|none|×1|×1|yes|0|
Sour-spot 3|6|4F|3|11|4.0|361|5|0|96|5|z=0, y=0, x=0|none|×1|×1|yes|0|

Spoiler: DOWN AERIAL

hit-box|hit-frame|duration|ID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|size|z/y/x|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Sweet-spot|14|1F|0|7|16.0|270|40|0|65|4|z=0, y=0, x=0|magic|×1|×1|yes|0|
Upper sour-spot|15|9F|0|5|5.0|275|5|0|90|6|z=0, y=0, x=0|none|×1|×1|yes|0|
Lower sour-spot|15|9F|0|7|4.0|275|0|0|70|6|z=0, y=0, x=0|none|×1|×1|yes|0|

Spoiler: UP AERIAL

hit-box|hit-frame|duration|ID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|size|z/y/x|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Hitbox|14|3F|0|0|15.0|90|30|0|90|7|z=0, y=23, x=0.5|fire|×1|×1|no|0|hitbox does not move with Zelda

Spoiler: GET UP ATTACK

hit-box|hit-frame|duration|ID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|size|z/y/x|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Front hitbox|17|2F|0|0|7.0|48|80|0|48|5|z=0, y=5, x=13 / z=0, y=5, x=4|none|×1|×1|no|+10|stretchy hit-box
Back hitbox|21|2F|0|0|7.0|48|80|0|48|5|z=0, y=5, x=-13 / z=0, y=5, x=-4|none|×1|×1|no|+10|stretchy hit-box

Spoiler: TRIPPED ATTACK

hit-box|hit-frame|duration|ID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|size|z/y/x|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Back hitbox|19|2F|0|0|5.0|361|60|0|50|4.5|z=0, y=4.5, x=-12 / z=0, y=4.5, x=-4.5|none|×1|×1|no|+10|stretchy hit-box
Front hitbox|27|2F|0|0|5.0|361|60|0|50|4.5|z=0, y=4.5, x=13 / z=0, y=4.5, x=4|none|×1|×1|no|+10|stretchy hit-box

Spoiler: LEDGE ATTACK

hit-box|hit-frame|duration|ID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|size|z/y/x|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Hitbox|24|3F|0|0|7.0|45|90|0|20|4.5|z=0, y=4.5, x=9 / z=0, y=4.5, x=-2.5|none|×1|×1|no|+1|stretchy hit-box

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

Since this thread is dedicated to research, does anyone else use the startup of Farore's Wind as a stage spiking tool, or is that just me? It works on characters that have less priority on their recovery moves, or if they're using a double jump. I've found that it usually works best on Battlefield because of its ledges being at a larger angle underneath than other stages usually are.

 

[Meru.]

In case no one has noticed, I've been updating the Usmash percent chart a couple posts up somewhat frequently.

Wow Usmash kills so early now. This change helps her a lot. I'm not an expert on rage but rage doesn't seem to affect it as much as affects other kills moves though, for example compared to stuff like Dash Attack of which I'm pretty sure it can kill like 40% earlier with rage.

 

[evmaxy54]

Since this thread is dedicated to research, does anyone else use the startup of Farore's Wind as a stage spiking tool, or is that just me? It works on characters that have less priority on their recovery moves, or if they're using a double jump. I've found that it usually works best on Battlefield because of its ledges being at a larger angle underneath than other stages usually are.

Seems like an interesting mix-up to our edgeguards on opponents who are p unreliable with their techs.

Wow Usmash kills so early now. This change helps her a lot. I'm not an expert on rage but rage doesn't seem to affect it as much as affects other kills moves though, for example compared to stuff like Dash Attack of which I'm pretty sure it can kill like 40% earlier with rage.

I think it's something to do with the value of the base knockback that determines how much Rage affects the move. Usmash has a BKB of 24 (from V1.0.7) so its scaling isn't the greatest while FW kills significantly earlier because it has a much greater BKB (sweetspot BKB is 90 from V1.0.7)

 

[BJN39]

Post 2 tables redoing happening now.

Spoiler: NEUTRAL SPECIAL

hit-box|hit-frame|duration|ID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|size|z/y/x|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Inner Loop hitbox|13|13F|0|0|2.0|160|12|0|40|6|z=0, y=8, x=-4 / z=0, y=8, x=4|slash|×1|×1|no|0|stretchy hit-box / refreshes every 4F after hitting
Outer Loop hitbox|13|13F|1|0|1.0|160|12|0|40|4|z=0, y=8, x=-10 / z=0, y=8, x=10|slash|×1|×1|no|0|stretchy hit-box / only hits grounded targets / refreshes every 4F after hitting
Inner Final hitbox|28|1F|0|0|5.0|361|50|0|100|7|z=0, y=8, x=-4 / z=0, y=8, x=4|slash|×1|×1|no|0|stretchy hit-box
Outer Final hitbox|28|1F|1|0|4.0|361|40|0|100|5|z=0, y=8, x=-11 / z=0, y=8, x=11|slash|×1|×1|no|0|stretchy hit-box

Spoiler: SIDE SPECIAL

hit-box|hit-frame|duration|ID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|size|z/y/x|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Sweet-spot|16|2F|0|0|2.0|52|50|0|97|2.1 [1.0.6] |z=0, y=0, x=0|fire|×1|×1|yes*|0|base damage: 7.0
Sour-spot|16|2F|0|0|1.0|65|55|0|40|4.5|z=0, y=0, x=0|fire|×1|×1|yes*|0|base damage: 3.5

Spoiler: DOWN SPECIAL

charge level|hit-box|hit-frame|duration|ID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|size|z/y/x|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Minimum, horizontal slash|Wind-box|2|9F|0|0|0.0|0|0|0|0|6|z=0, y=10, x=5|slash|×1|×1|yes*|0|
|Phantom slash|11|1F|0|0|6.0|361|30|0|100|5|z=0, y=10, x=14 / z=0, y=10, x=20|slash|×1|×1|yes*|0|stretchy hit-box
Medium, overhead slash|Wind-box 1|2|13F|5|0|0.0|0|0|0|0|7|z=0, y=10, x=7|slash|×1|×1|yes*|0|
|Wind-box 2|2|10F|0|0|0.0|361|0|20|100|5|z=0, y=8, x=10|none|×1|×1|no|0|only hits grounded targets
|Wind-box 3|2|10F|1|0|0.0|361|0|9|100|7|z=0, y=8, x=10|none|×1|×1|no|0|only hits airborne targets
|Phantom slash|13|2F|0|0|8.0|361|30|0|80|7.5|z=0, y=10, x=16 / z=0, y=10, x=23|slash|×1|×1|yes*|0|stretchy hit-box / base damage: 11.0
Maximum, uppercut slash|Wind-box 1|2|18F|5|0|0.0|0|0|0|0|7|z=0, y=10, x=10|slash|×1|×1|yes*|0|
|Wind-box 2|6|10F|0|0|0.0|361|0|25|100|5.5|z=0, y=8, x=10|none|×1|×1|no|0|only hits grounded targets
|Wind-box 3|6|10F|1|0|0.0|361|0|12|100|8.5|z=0, y=8, x=10|none|×1|×1|no|0|only hits airborne targets
|Hit 1 hitbox|18|2F|0|2000|3.0|62|90|0|10|4|z=1, y=0, x=2 / z=1, y=0, x=15|slash|×2|×1|yes*|0|stretchy hit-box / base damage: 11.5
|Hit 2 hitbox 1|24|4F|0|2000|5.0|50|32|0|100|4|z=1, y=0, x=2|slash|×1.2|×1|yes*|0|base damage: 13.0
|Hit 2 hitbox 2|24|4F|1|2000|5.0|50|32|0|100|4.5|z=1, y=0, x=8|slash|×1.2|×1|yes*|0|base damage: 13.0
|Hit 2 hitbox 3|24|4F|2|2000|5.0|50|32|0|100|5.5|z=1, y=0, x=15|slash|×1.2|×1|yes*|0|base damage: 13.0

Spoiler: UP SPECIAL

hit-box|hit-frame|duration|ID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|size|z/y/x|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Ground disappear|11|2F|0|0|6.0|91|118|0|30|8|z=0, y=6, x=-4 / z=0, y=6, x=4|slash|×1|×1|yes*|0|stretchy hit-box / frame speed: ×0.6
Ground reappear sweet-spot|1|2F|0|2|10.0|361|90|0|90|10|z=0, y=0, x=0|slash|×1.5|×1|yes*|0|frame speed: ×1.2
Ground reappear sour-spot|1|2F|1|2|7.0|361|70|0|90|15|z=0, y=0, x=0|slash|×1.2|×1|yes*|0|frame speed: ×1.2
Aerial disappear|11|2F|0|2|6.0|80|60|0|100|10.5|z=0, y=0, x=0|slash|×1|×1|yes*|0|frame speed: ×0.6
Aerial reappear sweet-spot|1|2F|0|2|12.0|55|90|0|90|11|z=0, y=0, x=0|slash|×1.5|×1|yes*|0|frame speed: ×1.2
Aerial reappear sour-spot|1|2F|1|2|8.0|55|90|0|90|16|z=0, y=0, x=0|slash|×1.2|×1|yes*|0|frame speed: ×1.2

Spoiler: Nayru's Rejection

hit-box|hit-frame|duration|ID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|size|z/y/x|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Loop hitbox|12|16F|0|0|1.0|160|12|0|40|10|z=0, y=8, x=-4 / z=0, y=8, x=4|slash|×0|×1|no|0|stretchy hit-box / frame speed: ×1.5 (1-11) / frame speed: ×0.5 (12-27)
Final hitbox|28|5F|0|0|5.0|110|0|0|0|10|z=0, y=8, x=-4 / z=0, y=8, x=4|Turning|×1|×1|no|4|stretchy hit-box / increased trip rate
Windbox|29|4F|0|0|0.0|361|0|40|100|10|z=0, y=8, x=-4 / z=0, y=8, x=4|none|×1|×1|no|4|stretchy hit-box

Spoiler: Nayru's Passion

hit-box|hit-frame|duration|ID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|size|z/y/x|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Windbox|13|13F|0|0|0.0|367|0|40|100|13|z=0, y=8, x=-10 / z=0, y=8, x=10|none|×1|×1|no|0|stretchy hit-box
Explosion|27|3F|0|0|15.0|361|50|0|65|11|z=0, y=8, x=-4 / z=0, y=8, x=4|fire|×1|×1|no|0|stretchy hit-box

Spoiler: Phantom Breaker

charge level|hit-box|hit-frame|duration|ID|GID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|size|z/y/x|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Minimum, horizontal slash|Wind-box|2|9F|0|0|0|0.0|0|0|0|0|6|z=0, y=10, x=5|slash|×1|×1|yes*|0|
|Phantom slash|11|1F|0|0|0|5.0|361|30|0|100|5|z=0, y=10, x=14 / z=0, y=10, x=20|slash|×1|×1|yes*|10|stretchy hit-box
Medium, overhead slash|Wind-box 1|2|13F|5|1|0|0.0|0|0|0|0|7|z=0, y=10, x=7|slash|×1|×1|yes*|0|
|Wind-box 2|2|10F|0|0|0|0.0|361|0|20|100|5|z=0, y=8, x=10|none|×1|×1|no|0|only hits grounded targets
|Wind-box 3|2|10F|1|0|0|0.0|361|0|9|100|7|z=0, y=8, x=10|none|×1|×1|no|0|only hits airborne targets
|Phantom slash|13|1F|0|0|0|7.0|361|30|0|80|7.5|z=0, y=10, x=16 / z=0, y=10, x=23|slash|×1|×1|yes*|15|stretchy hit-box / base damage: 9.0
Maximum, uppercut slash|Wind-box 1|2|18F|5|1|0|0.0|0|0|0|0|7|z=0, y=10, x=10|slash|×1|×1|yes*|0|
|Wind-box 2|6|10F|0|0|0|0.0|361|0|25|100|5.5|z=0, y=8, x=10|none|×1|×1|no|0|only hits grounded targets
|Wind-box 3|6|10F|1|0|0|0.0|361|0|12|100|8.5|z=0, y=8, x=10|none|×1|×1|no|0|only hits airborne targets
|Hit 1 hitbox|18|2F|0|0|2000|2.0|62|90|0|10|4|z=1, y=0, x=2 / z=1, y=0, x=15|slash|×2|×1|yes*|10|stretchy hit-box / base damage: 9.0
|Hit 2 hitbox 1|24|4F|0|0|2000|4.0|50|32|0|100|4|z=1, y=0, x=2|slash|×1.2|×1|yes*|20|base damage: 11.0
|Hit 2 hitbox 2|24|4F|1|0|2000|4.0|50|32|0|100|4.5|z=1, y=0, x=8|slash|×1.2|×1|yes*|20|base damage: 11.0
|Hit 2 hitbox 3|24|4F|2|0|2000|4.0|50|32|0|100|5.5|z=1, y=0, x=15|slash|×1.2|×1|yes*|20|base damage: 11.0

Spoiler: Phantom Strike

charge level|hit-box|hit-frame|duration|ID|GID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|size|z/y/x|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Minimum, horizontal slash|Wind-box|2|9F|0|0|0|0.0|0|0|0|0|6|z=0, y=10, x=5|slash|×1|×1|yes*|0|
|Phantom slash|11|1F|0|0|0|8.0|0|0|90|100|8|z=0, y=10, x=14 / z=0, y=10, x=20|slash|×1|×1|yes*|0|stretchy hit-box
Medium, overhead slash|Wind-box 1|2|13F|5|1|0|0.0|0|0|0|0|7|z=0, y=10, x=7|slash|×1|×1|yes*|0|
|Wind-box 2|2|10F|0|0|0|0.0|361|0|40|100|5|z=0, y=8, x=10|none|×1|×1|no|0|only hits grounded targets
|Wind-box 3|2|10F|1|0|0|0.0|361|0|15|100|7|z=0, y=8, x=10|none|×1|×1|no|0|only hits airborne targets
|Phantom slash|13|1F|0|0|0|10.0|20|0|120|80|9.8|z=0, y=10, x=16 / z=0, y=10, x=23|slash|×1|×1|yes*|0|stretchy hit-box / base damage: 11.0
Maximum, uppercut slash|Wind-box 1|2|18F|5|1|0|0.0|0|0|0|0|7|z=0, y=10, x=10|slash|×1|×1|yes*|0|
|Wind-box 2|6|10F|0|0|0|0.0|361|0|60|100|5.5|z=0, y=8, x=10|none|×1|×1|no|0|only hits grounded targets
|Wind-box 3|6|10F|1|0|0|0.0|361|0|10|100|8.5|z=0, y=8, x=10|none|×1|×1|no|0|only hits airborne targets
|Hit 1 hitbox|18|2F|0|0|2000|5.0|80|90|0|10|5|z=1, y=0, x=2 / z=1, y=0, x=15|slash|×2|×1|yes|0|stretchy hit-box / base damage: 13.0
|Hit 2 hitbox 1|24|4F|0|0|2000|7.0|30|0|130|100|5|z=1, y=0, x=2|slash|×1.2|×1|yes|0|base damage: 15.0
|Hit 2 hitbox 2|24|4F|1|0|2000|7.0|30|0|130|100|6|z=1, y=0, x=8|slash|×1.2|×1|yes|0|base damage: 15.0
|Hit 2 hitbox 3|24|4F|2|0|2000|7.0|30|0|130|100|7|z=1, y=0, x=15|slash|×1.2|×1|yes|0|base damage: 15.0

Spoiler: Farore's Squall

hit-box|hit-frame|duration|ID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|size|z/y/x|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Disappear Windbox|1|33F|0|0|0.0|361|50|0|100|10|z=0, y=6, x=0|none|×0|×0|no|0|frame speed: ×1.3
Travelling Windbox|34|??|0|0|0.0|361|90|0|100|12|z=0, y=6, x=-4|none|×0|×0|no|0|
Reappear hitbox|1|1F|1|2|0.0|90|90|0|100|15|z=0, y=0, x=0|none|×0|×0|no|0|frame speed: ×1

Spoiler: Farore's Windfall

hit-box|hit-frame|duration|ID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|size|z/y/x|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Disappear|31|1F|0|2|4.0|90|110|0|100|10|z=0, y=0, x=0|slash|×1|×1|yes*|0|frame speed: ×0.4
Reappear|1|2F|0|0|7.0|300|50|0|100|10|z=0, y=0, x=0 / z=0, y=4, x=0|slash|×1|×1|yes*|0|stretchy hit-box / frame speed: ×1

Spoiler: GRABS

Grab|hit-frame|duration|FAF|size|z/y/x|notes
Standing grab|10|2F|38|3.8|z=0, y=9, x=4 / z=0, y=9, x=10.5|stretchy hit-box
Dash grab|11|2F|47|3|z=0, y=9, x=4 / z=0, y=9, x=13.5|stretchy hit-box
Pivot grab|11|2F|44|3.8|z=0, y=9, x=-4 / z=0, y=9, x=-15.7 [1.0.4] |stretchy hit-box

Spoiler: PUMMEL

hit-box|hit-frame|duration|ID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|size|z/y/x|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Hitbox|7|1F|0|0|3.0|361|0|30|100|5|z=0, y=11, x=8|magic|×1|×1|no|0|

Spoiler: FORWARD THROW

hit-box|hit-frame|ID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Throw|30|0|0|12.0|45|70|0|50|none|×1|×1|no|0|weight-based speed modifier
Grab release|??|1|0|3.0|361|40|0|100|none|×1|×1|no|0|damage from mid-throw release

Spoiler: BACK THROW

hit-box|hit-frame|ID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Throw|27|0|0|11.0|45|80|0|60|none|×1|×1|no|0|weight-based speed modifier
Grab release|??|1|0|3.0|361|40|0|100|none|×1|×1|no|0|damage from mid-throw release

Spoiler: DOWN THROW

hit-box|hit-frame|duration|ID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|size|z/y/x|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Loop hitbox|25, 31, 37, 43|2F|0|0|1.0|40|0|25|100|7.2|z=0, y=2, x=0|magic|×0.5|×1|no|0|SetLoop=4
Throw|51|??|0|0|2.0|100|85|0|55|??|??|none|×1|×1|no|0|
Grab release|??|??|1|0|3.0|361|40|0|100|??|??|none|×1|×1|no|0|damage from mid-throw release

Spoiler: UP THROW

hit-box|hit-frame|ID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Throw|30|0|0|11.0|88|50|0|60|none|×1|×1|no|0|weight-based speed modifier
Grab release|??|1|0|3.0|361|40|0|100|none|×1|×1|no|0|damage from mid-throw release

 

[Rickster]

I've been wondering something...do you do all of this stuff on mobile? I mean the tables and coding and stuff.

 

[BJN39]

I've been wondering something...do you do all of this stuff on mobile? I mean the tables and coding and stuff.

Well, I've been doing some of the table swapping typing/initial posting on mobile. :3 it's easier than other things since I can just write it in notes and then copy-paste since I know each of the codes I'm using.

Mostly though, I opt to do FF updating on a computer since it's a little easier with a larger screen. Like when I implemented the redone tables into the OP I waited until I was at a computer.

Another note is now I actually temporarily switch off my rich text editor preference whenever I update the first two posts to completely avoid it glitching up the tables or anything else. Nothing has gone wrong with those posts since! :D

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I found out something kinda cool but idk where to post it so I guess here is the best place

If you shield dash grab the character's Falcon's 1-2-3 jab you can always do a sweetspot bair OOS. #BYEFALCON

 

[BJN39]

FARORE'S WIND ELEVATOR SUPER KO PERCENT CHART [WIP]
For about a month now I've started work on a redone FW elevator KO chart that would have significantly more depth that previously, and provide a lot of helpful information for perfecting timing your elevators.

I've decided to take a break from the project because I'm in a percent-finding slump (rn I'm finding it very hard to get myself onto it.) but I thought I'd share the goods that I've currently finished so that maybe they can be used (And abused) by Zeldas looking to perfect their Elevator game! It's around 50% done too!

How this works: there are 8 bars for each character. Each being an elevator KO percent with different circumstances in mind. Each percent is the earliest percent at whic the character was KO'ed off the top (And there was the red lightning effect.) on FD in the 3DS. Keep each of these in mind! Sometimes you may be able to net an earlier KO if you're close to the side blastzone and/or if you are using the WiiU version, as blastzones are a little closer in the WiiU version. Inversely you may need to go up around 5% to KO on stages with slightly higher top blastzones like BF.

No DI, 0% Rage : The target did NOT do any sort of DI of the second hit, and Zelda had no damage herself.

No DI, 50% / 100% / 150% Rage : All once again these are tested with no DI on the target's part on hit 2, but this time tested at three different levels of rage boosts for Zelda. 150% is the cap so no need to test any higher.

No DI percents are purely a gamble to go for against anyone off of FG. If your opponent knows how to correctly DI hit 2, you should stick to "Good DI"

Good DI : These follow the same design as far as rage as the "No DI" but in these tests the target correctly survival DI'ed to live as long as possible. These are the earliest percents at which, when used, the opponent was KO'ed off the top. You can take good DI percents as a more "true guarantee" of when a character will be KO'ed by elevator. Yes, they're a little higher percent numbers, but you can feel more confident in their success.

Orange numbers : These are significant as some characters can actually undershhot the second hit of FW at a small percent range. The numbers shown in the chart are the earliest numbers where it will comfortably work. Below the chart are the lowest numbers the character was KO'ed at. These percents will only work if FW1 is used at point-blank.

Spoiler: CHART

3DS |No DI 0% Rage |No DI 50% Rage |No DI 100% Rage |No DI 150% Rage |Good DI 0% Rage |Good DI 50% Rage |Good DI 100% Rage |Good DI 150% Rage
|73%|67%|52%|37%|109%|102%|84%|68%
|66%|61%|48%|33%|100%|94%|75%|62%
|61%|56%|42%|29%|95%|90%|71%|55%
|76%|71%|53%|38%|114%|110%|90%|69%
|69%|65%|49%|36%|106%|101%|82%|66%
|58%|54%|41%|28%|86%|83%|68%|53%
| 80% |71%|55%|41%|116%|108%|89%|71%
|55%|51%|38%|26%|88%|81%|66%|52%
|88%|82%|64%|48%|125%|121%|98%|82%
|75%|69%|54%|40%|112%|105%|85%|69%
|64%|59%|47%|32%|94%|91%|75%|56%
|63%|56%|44%|31%|98%|93%|73%|59%
|80%|75%|57%|43%|114%|107%|89%|73%
|70%|65%|50%|35%|107%|99%|83%|64%
|66%|61%|47%|35%|99%|95%|75%|61%
|71%|66%|51%|38%|105%|101%|83%|67%
|63%|58%|45%|32%|96%|92%|72%|58%
|71%|68%|52%|38%|105%|101%|81%|66%
|59%|53%|43%|28%|91%|85%|70%|56%
|97%|90%|74%|56%|134%|127%|104%|85%
| 81% | 71% |53%|40%|107%|100%|83%|69%
| 70% | 59% |44%| 32% |99%|96%|77%|62%
|64%|59%|45%|33%|98%|92%|75%|57%
|50%|46%|33%|22%|82%|75%|61%|48%
| 86% |77%|59%|45%|120%|113%|92%|74%
|67%|61%|47%|33%|103%|98%|80%|64%
|65%|60%|45%|32%|100%|94%|76%|60%
|73%|67%|52%|37%|109%|102%|84%|68%
|71%|66%|51%|38%|105%|101%|83%|67%
|71%|68%|52%|38%|105%|101%|81%|66%
| 103% | 85% |58%|44%|122%|116%|94%|77%

77%
73% / 68%
69% / 58% / 31%
81%
97% / 81%

 

[CNMNE]

I'm seriously loving the Nair buff. Guaranteed combos and kill setups from a falling Nair? YES. It also helps that falling Nairs aren't that uncommon. Lately I've been testing falling Nair after baiting an airdodge from Dthrow. Honestly, it might be better to Nair>Elevator after an airdodge bait instead of trying for a kick.

So happy right now!

I've been an avatar of Nayru for a while now, but i don't think I've ever heard that FF Nair true combos into Elevator, is this really inescapable?

 

[Rickster]

I've been an avatar of Nayru for a while now, but i don't think I've ever heard that FF Nair true combos into Elevator, is this really inescapable?

The landing lag decrease allows it to true combo according to training.

It can fail:
- On certain characters. Not sure why this happens, but it does. The weird thing is that it sometimes works on them, and sometimes doesn't.
- If you have rage the multihits can actually cause a hard knockdown, which means they can tech. Of course it they don't tech it should work 99% of the time.

Dtilt, Dsmash, Utilt, and Usmash can also true combo, but Usmash is really iffy. Dtilt and Dsmash pretty much always work.

 

[CNMNE]

The landing lag decrease allows it to true combo according to training.

It can fail:
- On certain characters. Not sure why this happens, but it does. The weird thing is that it sometimes works on them, and sometimes doesn't.
- If you have rage the multihits can actually cause a hard knockdown, which means they can tech. Of course it they don't tech it should work 99% of the time.

Dtilt, Dsmash, Utilt, and Usmash can also true combo, but Usmash is really iffy. Dtilt and Dsmash pretty much always work.

Thanks a bunch Rick, good to know its actually reliable!

 

[evmaxy54]

Would it be worth adding to Usmash, FW, NL, Grab & Zelda's Aerials the earliest frame they can do something OoS?

So it would be:
Usmash Earliest OoS = 10 frames
FW Earliest OoS = 8 frames
NL Earliest OoS = 19 frames (intangibility on frame 11)
Grab Earliest OoS = 10 frames
Nair Earliest OoS = 12 frames
Fair Earliest OoS = 15 frames
Bair Earliest OoS = 12 frames
Uair Earliest OoS = 20 frames
Dair Earliest OoS = 20 frames

Also that feel when Zelda has only one OoS option less than 10 frames which isn't her grab & is risky as all hell

 

[BJN39]

I think it would be worth it to have that data implemented somewhere! Whether it be in each move, or as a table in post three. Thanks for the data sis!

 

[evmaxy54]

I think it would be worth it to have that data implemented somewhere! Whether it be in each move, or as a table in post three. Thanks for the data sis!

No bother at all =3 I noticed an old Melee Jigglypuff frame data thread had that those numbers there as well so I thought that we might as well steal that idea lololol

 

[BJN39]

No bother at all =3 I noticed an old Melee Jigglypuff frame data thread had that those numbers there as well so I thought that we might as well steal that idea lololol

I know what you were doing there...

I'll be looking for a good way to implement these then!

 

[evmaxy54]

I know what you were doing there...

I'll be looking for a good way to implement these then!

It gets me everytime

Just look at it...

 

[ZombieBran]

I know what you were doing there...

I'll be looking for a good way to implement these then!

Good lord, sis, that should be spoilered, there are children on this site

 

[BJN39]

So can a gorl cut me off before I get too excited about SH NAir?

I realized recently that SH NAir seems really solid as a combo tool. Hits plenty of characters, including even shorty Mario off a SH with the front hits, and after the final hit on frame 22-23, you can AC it from 38-40 (40 frames being the full SH duration.) With that in mind it can even be optimized to get a couple frames MORE advantage, by FFing at the perect time to cut off 2 frames.

It combos into Utilt, (For unknown likely no true followups aside like FFers.) as well as Usmash (Sometimes you have to running/JC it to land.) and possibly possibly another NAir, or grab. I've also gotten this impression it might be possible to land a FAir or another SH NAir on fatties if you do the optimized landing.

But I have NO IDEA if it's actually guaranteed on players who will airdodge or jump as soon as possible, and it's been making me feel bummed like I'm wasting time enjoying messing around with them.

Can a gorl who has a slave friend to be the combo escaper hook me up with some confirmation of SH NAir > Utilt/Usmash being true or not?

 

[Rickster]

So can a gorl cut me off before I get too excited about SH NAir?

No vertical hitbox
Bad trades


In all seriousness it's one of my favorite ways to start combos. I knew that we had strings off of it, but the true combo thing has me interested. I can't test rn though since I'm in a car, lol.

Also thank you for that 2 frame thing! I've been wondering how many frames we save from FFing the Nair at the last second.

 

[evmaxy54]

So can a gorl cut me off before I get too excited about SH NAir?

I realized recently that SH NAir seems really solid as a combo tool. Hits plenty of characters, including even shorty Mario off a SH with the front hits, and after the final hit on frame 22-23, you can AC it from 38-40 (40 frames being the full SH duration.) With that in mind it can even be optimized to get a couple frames MORE advantage, by FFing at the perect time to cut off 2 frames.

It combos into Utilt, (For unknown likely no true followups aside like FFers.) as well as Usmash (Sometimes you have to running/JC it to land.) and possibly possibly another NAir, or grab. I've also gotten this impression it might be possible to land a FAir or another SH NAir on fatties if you do the optimized landing.

But I have NO IDEA if it's actually guaranteed on players who will airdodge or jump as soon as possible, and it's been making me feel bummed like I'm wasting time enjoying messing around with them.

Can a gorl who has a slave friend to be the combo escaper hook me up with some confirmation of SH NAir > Utilt/Usmash being true or not?

I might try this evening, I've got Skarfelt Scrubfelt coming over later so I might try it out in between P:Cease & Desist & Muhley practice =P

Edit1: For the meantime sis, in training, SH Nair to Utilt works on Falcon at 0% & SH Nair to sweetspot DA works at 6% soooooooooooooooo

Edit2: I don't think we can get an Usmash but DA, Utilt, Dtilt & Dsmash aren't bad alternatives (depending on DI & % wise) but this seems something at very low % though

 

[BJN39]

PSA: Ftilt has longer horizontal range than Fsmash

So now with that read bait, let me back it up a little to first, I had guessed/said many times I believed Fsmash, at least the final hit, had longer range than Ftilt. I did some tests today, and I discovered otherwise on Ftilt, as well as another set of very similarly ranged moves.

So through data we can definitively say that Fsmash has a horizontal range of 22.0 units, and Jab's final hit has a horizontal range of 19.0 units. Now, afaik no one actually can interpret how long in-game a unit is, but we can estimate it off of visuals.

So I went onto BF as Zelda, with a WFT dummy. (Since she appears to have very distinct and perfectly straight vertical hurt-boxes. Fun fact: Her breasts have no additional hurt-boxes. Which isn't actually surprising since Male WFT doesn't have well...large breasts like femFit, so that would give him unfair disadvantage in hurt-boxes VS visuals. ANYWAYS WAY OFF TRACK...)

I used the platform the dummy starts on and pushed her to one edge. Then I started at the other edge and got closer and closer until I found the exact point on the platform (With its detailed visuals as references.) where Zelda's attack would graze WFT's torso hurt-box. (The little orange spark thing. Yes, all three Jab, Ftilt, and Fsmash all grazed on nearly the same vertical placement on WFT.) Of course Fsmash hit 5 VS Jab was a 3 unit difference, so I took pictures of each using 1/4 L speed onto my phone (Now if I ever figure out how to show y'all I will, but lol I dumb sometimes.) So now I had visual VSs of Jab and Fsmash's final hits, which are 3 units apart. So I could then take other moves whose coordinates are on "Bones" (Read: Ftilt, Utilt, Dtilt.) and compare than to each other or moves that had exact coordinates. (Read: Smashes.)

So anyways now we back to Ftilt range stuff. I'd tested Ftilt VS Fsmash before I had come up with the idea to use Jab/Fsmash's visual range difference to calculate her tilts' range, so I went back and looked at Ftilt VS Fsmash's images on my phone and I estimate Ftilt outranges Fsmash's hit 5 by roughly 2 units. Take note that Fsmash hits 1-4 have slightly smaller range than hit 5 so effectively Ftilt outranges Fsmash by roughly 3.5 units.

Now, each unit is a very, very, small distance, so when using Fsmash VS Ftilt, you should still take the facts aside that of the move in determination of which to use: Ftilt puts her hurt-box out farther, it has worse hit furation and has 1 more endlag frame, it also does less damage and KB. In return it hits 4 frames faster and has negligibly better range. While this is a neat discovery, it doesn't exactly make Ftilt any better.

What's more interesting, is that even though I tested Fsmash post-micro range nerf, Fsmash should technically have had shorter range even pre-patch. Also, random note that this range thing does not apply to Downward Ftilt, since its horizontal range is slightly shorter than Straight/Up ftilts.

So in the midst of this I went and did range tests/photos of multiple other of Zelda's attacks, and found that Dtilt outranges Dsmash horizontally by roughly 1 unit. Apparently Dtilt still has longer range, but they're even closer that Fsmash/Ftilt that once again it really is nothing aside when we talk about the ranges of her moves. In addition the final hit of Nayru's and Dsmash's front hit ranges are like, identical, or maybe only pixels apart, and Utilt first hit-frame VS Usmash hit 8 also have nearly identical horizontal range.

Also I tested Dtilt and Dsmash's ability to hit below ground level, and Dtilt's diagonal stretchy hit-box did a better job poking below a platform, while Dsmash had a tiny margin where it could hit below. Either way both can hit below the edge, Dtilt from roughly her center body to the tip of the move reaches below (So like, the whole hit-box's length) and the tipper hit of Dsmash hits below, but not the inner part so you need to space it to hit ledge grabbers.

 

[Rickster]

PSA: Ftilt has longer horizontal range than Fsmash

So now with that read bait, let me back it up a little to first, I had guessed/said many times I believed Fsmash, at least the final hit, had longer range than Ftilt. I did some tests today, and I discovered otherwise on Ftilt, as well as another set of very similarly ranged moves.

So through data we can definitively say that Fsmash has a horizontal range of 22.0 units, and Jab's final hit has a horizontal range of 19.0 units. Now, afaik no one actually can interpret how long in-game a unit is, but we can estimate it off of visuals.

So I went onto BF as Zelda, with a WFT dummy. (Since she appears to have very distinct and perfectly straight vertical hurt-boxes. Fun fact: Her breasts have no additional hurt-boxes. Which isn't actually surprising since Male WFT doesn't have well...large breasts like femFit, so that would give him unfair disadvantage in hurt-boxes VS visuals. ANYWAYS WAY OFF TRACK...)

I used the platform the dummy starts on and pushed her to one edge. Then I started at the other edge and got closer and closer until I found the exact point on the platform (With its detailed visuals as references.) where Zelda's attack would graze WFT's torso hurt-box. (The little orange spark thing. Yes, all three Jab, Ftilt, and Fsmash all grazed on nearly the same vertical placement on WFT.) Of course Fsmash hit 5 VS Jab was a 3 unit difference, so I took pictures of each using 1/4 L speed onto my phone (Now if I ever figure out how to show y'all I will, but lol I dumb sometimes.) So now I had visual VSs of Jab and Fsmash's final hits, which are 3 units apart. So I could then take other moves whose coordinates are on "Bones" (Read: Ftilt, Utilt, Dtilt.) and compare than to each other or moves that had exact coordinates. (Read: Smashes.)

So anyways now we back to Ftilt range stuff. I'd tested Ftilt VS Fsmash before I had come up with the idea to use Jab/Fsmash's visual range difference to calculate her tilts' range, so I went back and looked at Ftilt VS Fsmash's images on my phone and I estimate Ftilt outranges Fsmash's hit 5 by roughly 2 units. Take note that Fsmash hits 1-4 have slightly smaller range than hit 5 so effectively Ftilt outranges Fsmash by roughly 3.5 units.

Now, each unit is a very, very, small distance, so when using Fsmash VS Ftilt, you should still take the facts aside that of the move in determination of which to use: Ftilt puts her hurt-box out farther, it has worse hit furation and has 1 more endlag frame, it also does less damage and KB. In return it hits 4 frames faster and has negligibly better range. While this is a neat discovery, it doesn't exactly make Ftilt any better.

What's more interesting, is that even though I tested Fsmash post-micro range nerf, Fsmash should technically have had shorter range even pre-patch. Also, random note that this range thing does not apply to Downward Ftilt, since its horizontal range is slightly shorter than Straight/Up ftilts.

So in the midst of this I went and did range tests/photos of multiple other of Zelda's attacks, and found that Dtilt outranges Dsmash horizontally by roughly 1 unit. Apparently Dtilt still has longer range, but they're even closer that Fsmash/Ftilt that once again it really is nothing aside when we talk about the ranges of her moves. In addition the final hit of Nayru's and Dsmash's front hit ranges are like, identical, or maybe only pixels apart, and Utilt first hit-frame VS Usmash hit 8 also have nearly identical horizontal range.

Also I tested Dtilt and Dsmash's ability to hit below ground level, and Dtilt's diagonal stretchy hit-box did a better job poking below a platform, while Dsmash had a tiny margin where it could hit below. Either way both can hit below the edge, Dtilt from roughly her center body to the tip of the move reaches below (So like, the whole hit-box's length) and the tipper hit of Dsmash hits below, but not the inner part so you need to space it to hit ledge grabbers.

Whoo! Ftilt is ever so slightly less bad now!

That extra research is actually really interesting. I hate how we have to space our Dsmash at the ledge though. It's not fair when someone like Fox doesn't have to worry about whiffing a ledge punish...

Also I laughed a ton at that WFT hurtbox thing.

Good stuff sis!
BAN ZELDA

 

[evmaxy54]

I can't seem to hit Ganon when he's grabbing the ledge with Dsmash at all ;_;

 

[BJN39]

I can't seem to hit Ganon when he's grabbing the ledge with Dsmash at all ;_;

For Dsmash to hit the character has to have high/large enough hurt-boxes, sinc it barely goes below the edge at a very specific spot. Perhaps Ganon's ledge animation doesn't provide a high enough target, sometimes hands don't have hurt-boxes of their own. Dtilt should though. It definitely reaches lower than Dsmash. Especially nearer to the tip of it.