Data The Great Fairy Fountain II : Zelda Data & Research Repository

[Furret]

Wow, those are some depressing numbers for Zelda's advantage on hit. At least I'm mostly convinced now that ff Fair on shield is a bad idea. Could you describe what the first/last hit frames mean?

I dunno depends on the shield push. something near -3 against a character that couldn't shield grab, USpecial or USmash to me is very tempting to practice

 

[BJN39]

tables WIP part 2: Specials

Nayru's Love|first frame [drop]|last frame [drop]|first frame [OoS]|last frame [OoS]
hit 1, 2, 3; (2%)|-37, -33, -29|-34, -30, -26|-44, -40, -36|-41, -37, -33
hit 1, 2, 3; (1%)|-38, -34, -30|-35, -31, -27|-45, -41, -37|-42, -38, -34
hit 4|-21|-21|-28|-28

Phantom Slash|first frame [drop]|last frame [drop]|first frame [OoS]|last frame [OoS]
uncharged slash; (6%)|-24|-24|-31|-31
uncharged slash; (8%)|-23|-23|-30|-30
med charge slash; (11%)|-19|-18|-26|-25
med charge slash; (15%)|-17|-16|-24|-23
max charge; hit 1|-14|-13|-21|-20
max charge; hit 2|-7|-4|-14|-11

Farore's Wind|first frame [drop]|last frame [drop]|first frame [OoS]|last frame [OoS]
disappear|-62|-61|-69|-68
reappear; sweet-spot|-26|-25|-33|-32
reappear; sour-spot|-27|-26|-34|-33

Nayru's Reject|first frame [drop]|last frame [drop]|first frame [OoS]|last frame [OoS]
hit 1, 2|-31, -27|-28, -24|-38, -34|-35, -31
hit 3|-18|-18|-25|-25

Nayru's Passion|first frame [drop]|last frame [drop]|first frame [OoS]|last frame [OoS]
hit|-16|-14|-23|-21

Phantom Breaker|first frame [drop]|last frame [drop]|first frame [OoS]|last frame [OoS]
uncharged slash; (5%)|-22|-22|-29|-29
uncharged slash; (7%)|-21|-21|-28|-28
med charge slash; (9%)|-15|-15|-22|-22
med charge slash; (13%)|-13|-13|-20|-20
max charge; hit 1|-13|-12|-20|-19
max charge; hit 2|0|+3|-7|-4

Phantom Strike|first frame [drop]|last frame [drop]|first frame [OoS]|last frame [OoS]
uncharged slash; (8%)|-26|-26|-23|-23
uncharged slash; (10%)|-25|-25|-22|-22
med charge slash; (13%)|-21|-21|-28|-28
med charge slash; (17%)|-19|-19|-26|-26
max charge; hit 1|-16|-15|-23|-22
max charge; hit 2|-9|-6|-16|-13

Farore's Squall|first frame [drop]|last frame [drop]|first frame [OoS]|last frame [OoS]
reappear|-20|-19|-27|-26

Din's Fire|first frame [drop]|last frame [drop]|first frame [OoS]|last frame [OoS]
sour-spot; min distance|-14|-13|-21|-20
sour-spot; max distance|-11|-10|-18|-17
sweet-spot; min distance|-11|-10|-18|-17
sweet-spot; max distance|-7|-6|-14|-13

Din's Flare|first frame [drop]|last frame [drop]|first frame [OoS]|last frame [OoS]
sour-spot|-11|-10|-18|-17
sweet-spot|-7|-6|-14|-13

I'm not sure how to go about Farore's Windfall tbh, unless I could get frames for the full disappear>reappear>land length for normal and fast falling.

Even then they'd look pretty bad and not be very relevant.

Also Squall hit 1 shouldn't 'hit' shields iirc.

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

I'm not sure how to go about Farore's Windfall tbh, unless I could get frames for the full disappear>reappear>land length for normal and fast falling.

If you really wanted numbers for Windfall just to finish the data set, you could use platforms like the top platform of Dreamland/Battlefield

 

[Rickster]

Although the numbers look bad, I don't think we need to worry too much about them on the Phantom. We can't be punished very easily for a blocked Phantom, even at low charges (exceptions include some Dash attacks and tether grabs).

Also wow, I was actually expecting Nayru's to be a lot worse than it really is.
-----
Btw BJN39 do you remember waaay back when you told us that we can fast fall right before we land during a SH Nair? Well I did some testing and it turns out that we can get SH Nair>Utilt to true combo like that on anyone with an average falling speed or faster. It's not revolutionary or anything, but it helps to optimize our combo game. I haven't tested Usmash yet, but I'm assuming it won't true combo since the startup is slightly slower.

Finally, do you care if I post metagame developments in here? It would be new strings, combos, stuff like that. The other threads are kinda dead, and posting in the social seems like a waste it also exposes our bottom tier secrets to everyone secretzpop. I also bet that the serious Zeldas are more likely to visit this thread than the social.

 

[BJN39]

Btw BJN39 do you remember waaay back when you told us that we can fast fall right before we land during a SH Nair? Well I did some testing and it turns out that we can get SH Nair>Utilt to true combo like that on anyone with an average falling speed or faster. It's not revolutionary or anything, but it helps to optimize our combo game. I haven't tested Usmash yet, but I'm assuming it won't true combo since the startup is slightly slower.

Finally, do you care if I post metagame developments in here? It would be new strings, combos, stuff like that. The other threads are kinda dead, and posting in the social seems like a waste it also exposes our bottom tier secrets to everyone secretzpop. I also bet that the serious Zeldas are more likely to visit this thread than the social.

Please do feel free to post Zelda metagame stuff here. I'm all for it getting more usage and attention. <3

With NAir > Utilt, I remember evmaxy54 mentioning it working or something back closer to the aforementioned comment by me, but after that it was just kinda dropped. Good stuff to hear it again! Ty for looking over it again.

Maybe I should use post three for some notes or something...

If you really wanted numbers for Windfall just to finish the data set, you could use platforms like the top platform of Dreamland/Battlefield

The problem is that I can't do the frame counts myself, which are necessary for the advantage numbers. I could ask one of the good frame counting sistren, but I'm not gonna worry about it too much because the true "disadvantage" numbers for windfall have to consider a lot of variation such as fall speed (FF vs no FF and how soon.) and platforms.

WiiU | DI:NO | DI:YES | DI:NO | DI:YES | DI:NO | DI:YES
SHEIK|
ZSS|
ROSALINA|
RYU|
PIKACHU|
SONIC|
FOX|
MARIO|
DIDDY|
MK|
VILLAGER|
CLOUD|
NESS|

 

[Furret]

BJN39
I believe Zelda's new Ftilt is frame 9 instead of 10

old one states a clear frame 12

new one states it as frame 11 and uses a frame multiplier of .8 so 12->11->8.8
no one else had reported it as frame 9, so I was wondering if i was wrong about it
I asked KuroganeHammer earlier, but I'm certain he's busy with other aspects. So it'd be nice if i didn't have to bug him

 

[Valamway]

So you're saying a frame might have been removed entirely in addition to the startup framespeed change?
Stop... I... I can only get so erect...

Ftilt already comes out faster than jab now.

 

[Furret]

So you're saying a frame might have been removed entirely in addition to the startup framespeed change?
Stop... I... I can only get so erect...

Ftilt already comes out faster than jab now.

ya, but I only have the knowledge to read the frame data
I don't have the tools to test/compare/read frames,
although maybe I could look into sending matches to youtube function. if it was 60 fps that would let me test

anyways
the more i think about it though the more the reduction in 2 frames on the FAF is right, but first active frame still looks wrong

 

[Macchiato]

We also have to take into account that ftilt was her most ranged grounded move pre-patch, and now that it is even buffed more in range, it could be a great spacing tool.

 

[Rickster]

I like to use it more as a quick punish tool if Fsmash would be too slow and I'm out of range for anything else. Pivoting too, but that reduces the range.
If spaced at max range on shield it might be pretty good too, but then you run the risk of them perfect shielding it, a problem Fsmash doesn't have.

 

[BJN39]

The data says it should hit frame 9

But it literally doesn't.

The results I get from gameplay seem to ONLY BE frame 10.

I though maybe because of the actual moving forward of the hitbox one frame might have had something to do with it, which eould mean it appears earlier AKA before her hand is exactly in front of her

But that doesn't seem to be true because the frame before the frame where her arm is straight forward definitely has no hitbox.

It's being extremely weird and not agreeing with the data.

I wanted it to be frame 9 so bad, but I have to believe it's frame 10 (FAF 38)

 

[Furret]

that's actually stupid, guess that's what lazy coding does

 

[BJN39]

And was it any surprise this fail happened in Zelda's coding?

In somethingsomething other news I'm going through and fixing Zelda's block advantage data whoops. I must have been using something along the lines of FAFs instead of end frames to calculate them.

The good news is that just about every move should be 1 frame better in the data now! BAN•ZELDA

 

[Furret]

And was it any surprise this fail happened in Zelda's coding?

honestly, i think they just get lazy with zelda's coding, like melee zelda in general looked unfinished

Angle=0x3c
Angle=0xa0
remember these bad boys?
hint Fsmash

 

[Rickster]

honestly, i think they just get lazy with zelda's coding, like melee zelda in general looked unfinished

Angle=0x3c
Angle=0xa0
remember these bad boys?
hint Fsmash

And 14 years later they still had to be patched.

 

[KlicKlac]

We also have to take into account that ftilt was her most ranged grounded move pre-patch, and now that it is even buffed more in range, it could be a great spacing tool.

I'm finding it very effective to punish a hit on your shield with ftilt now that it's faster and has a little bit more range. This is really useful to punish opponent's moves that bounce off or go through shields like a sliding dash. Ftilt may be the fastest punish option in certain cases. This adds a whole new element to zelda's neutral game.

 

[evmaxy54]

I'm finding it very effective to punish a hit on your shield with ftilt now that it's faster and has a little bit more range. This is really useful to punish opponent's moves that bounce off or go through shields like a sliding dash. Ftilt may be the fastest punish option in certain cases. This adds a whole new element to zelda's neutral game.

IDA I would imagine is just a bit faster, but you'll more than likely get the sourspot with it =/

 

[BJN39]

IDA I would imagine is just a bit faster, but you'll more than likely get the sourspot with it =/

Actually if you are spacing Ftilt at all (AKA you aren't very close to your target) you will hit with the sweet-spot, because the sweet-spot has hit priority over the sour-spots. It's odd, but nice for Zelda.

I think the sweet-spot hitbox extends inward all the way to her wrist, (move data says so) maybe a microscopic amount past it.

 

[evmaxy54]

Actually if you are spacing Ftilt at all (AKA you aren't very close to your target) you will hit with the sweet-spot, because the sweet-spot has hit priority over the sour-spots. It's odd, but nice for Zelda.

I think the sweet-spot hitbox extends inward all the way to her wrist, (move data says so) maybe a microscopic amount past it.

My comment was in response to if Ftilt was our fastest punish option, which I don't think it is. Though it is much better than IDA if Ftilt is also an option, either as an OoS option or approaching via PPs.

Though it is really cool that they gave us sweetspot priority.

---

Completely unrelated but

I wonder what's faster & covers more ground quicker: PP approaching Ftilts or walking Ftilt?

 

[BJN39]

Oh, whoops. Yeah Ftilt still is not our fastest punish option.

....

LOL I didn't realize at that moment what IDA was. Okay yea #oop

 

[evmaxy54]

Oh, whoops. Yeah Ftilt still is not our fastest punish option.

....

LOL I didn't realize at that moment what IDA was. Okay yea #oop

It's OK LOL

But hey, it got me something to think about from it so whatever =P

 

[KlicKlac]

IDA I would imagine is just a bit faster, but you'll more than likely get the sourspot with it =/

Well, I made sure to mention "in certain cases". Like, sometimes opponents like to pressure your shield with retreating aerials, and it's a lot easier to punish that with a ftilt now. Of course, it may also be good to just go for a dash attack. It's definitely good to have the option for a ftilt in some cases, now, as ftilt has killing power at high percents.

 

[Valamway]

I just got back from a tourney, and I found ftilt to be a great punish for oponents who try to cross-up your shield with an aerial.
Turnaround dtilt is faster, but harder to execute and doesn't have the range or damage.
Usually they try to space as safely as they can on shield, whether it's a cross-up or not, so I don't think sourspots are very likely.

 

[Lord Renning]

Does f-tilt have more range than Nayru's Love and grab?

I'm finding it very effective to punish a hit on your shield with ftilt now that it's faster and has a little bit more range. This is really useful to punish opponent's moves that bounce off or go through shields like a sliding dash. Ftilt may be the fastest punish option in certain cases. This adds a whole new element to zelda's neutral game.

I think f-tilt was always meant to be a punishing tool. It's been a bnb punish for me since forever.

Deku Tree explains the concept of Shadowing in this video, and it's basically how I played Zelda when I was in practice, and how I landed my f-tilts.

F-Tilts are fantastic for this type of punishing. Now so is Love and grab.

This game can be played with any character, but I think defensive characters like Zelda are more geared towards it. However it used to fall apart on me because Zelda couldn't wall well enough to frustrate the opponent and lend to the mentality of over-commitment, or bait them into taking false opening. She didn't have enough variety in the ways she could adapt to their attacks and punish. I think she does now, and the improved f-tilt helps.

If anyone could point me to the correct threads for this kind of discussion, I'd love to start being more organized and consolidated over leaving some in the patch, some in the social, and some here.

 

[evmaxy54]

Does f-tilt have more range than Nayru's Love and grab?



I think f-tilt was always meant to be a punishing tool. It's been a bnb punish for me since forever.

Deku Tree explains the concept of Shadowing in this video, and it's basically how I played Zelda when I was in practice, and how I landed my f-tilts.

F-Tilts are fantastic for this type of punishing. Now so is Love and grab.

This game can be played with any character, but I think defensive characters like Zelda are more geared towards it. However it used to fall apart on me because Zelda couldn't wall well enough to frustrate the opponent and lend to the mentality of over-commitment, or bait them into taking false opening. She didn't have enough variety in the ways she could adapt to their attacks and punish. I think she does now, and the improved f-tilt helps.

If anyone could point me to the correct threads for this kind of discussion, I'd love to start being more organized and consolidated over leaving some in the patch, some in the social, and some here.

Seems like Shadowing is just a fancy term for whiff punishing tbh. And whiff punishing is a part of the term footsies which makes up the neutral

 

[Valamway]

Hey, that guy is from Ohio!

I knew Absol made videos, and I think he's even posted them to the Ohio Smash pages before...
Weird though that I've never watched them before.

It's alright to call these concepts whatever you want, especially since Smash has different emphasis on different ideas and techniques when compared to most fighters.
But yeah, footsies in Smash are all about watching very carefully for any overextension.
In Melee there are more zone-breaking and surprise rushdown moves, but the neutral in Sm4sh is more methodical.

An opponent of any amount of skill shouldn't set you up for whiff punishes all that often unless you have the bait and punish skills of a god.

 

[evmaxy54]

Hey, that guy is from Ohio!

I knew Absol made videos, and I think he's even posted them to the Ohio Smash pages before...
Weird though that I've never watched them before.

It's alright to call these concepts whatever you want, especially since Smash has different emphasis on different ideas and techniques when compared to most fighters.
But yeah, footsies in Smash are all about watching very carefully for any overextension.
In Melee there are more zone-breaking and surprise rushdown moves, but the neutral in Sm4sh is more methodical.

An opponent of any amount of skill shouldn't set you up for whiff punishes all that often unless you have the bait and punish skills of a god.

I wouldn't. They're the same ideas from other FGs but with its own twist because of the way Smash works

The thing about Smash (in general) is that the majority of hits in this game are whiff punishes as opposed to aggressive pokes & that's because Smash has a lot more evasive options compared to other games. That's not to say WP is the end all be all strategy, since it loses to walk forward because setting up a WP involves you giving up space, but it should be your main plan of attack.

 

[Valamway]

I wouldn't.

I wouldn't either, but it's not the end of the world.
Knowing the right names for things is not nearly as important as understanding the concepts, which can be done with any or no name for the thought processes behind them.

The thing about Smash (in general) is that the majority of hits in this game are whiff punishes... it should be your main plan of attack.

I disagree entirely and completely.
The main plan of attack is creating a zone of safe pressure and slowly easing it toward your opponent, who should also be doing the same thing.
There shouldn't be many whiff punishes, because despite the innumerable whiffs, very few should be unsafe.
Any kind of unsafe poke, projectile, or movement should be limited to hard read or an attempt at a burst option, which only a few characters have in this game.
Nearly 100% of the time in Smash, neutral turns into advantage through option coverage and then exploitation.
You limit your opponent with safe pressure and positional threat, then seize advantage by closing in on their now predictable position.
Or if your pressure forces them to approach you, like with Sheik needles or Limit charge or whatever kind of safe camping, you limit their approach options then read and react from what remains

 

[Lord Renning]

I wouldn't call it a simple whiff punish. Whiffs are the players fault for miss-spacing or miss-timing their attacks, and decent players will use safe moves spaced correctly so they can handle hitting a shield or an evasion. Relying on the opponent's technical failures only works at low levels (though I think you're using the term differently.)

Tricking the opponent into attacking where you just were is a much different tactic, because you're putting an attack where you used to be right as the opponent attacks where you were. It works best with long attacks and disjoints, like swords or magic arm blades.

Edit: If there's one bad habit you can pick up from For Glory, or low level players, it's that you can start to expect them to miss attacks. You really should always be expecting a hit to land if you don't do anything about it.

 

[KlicKlac]

Edit: If there's one bad habit you can pick up from For Glory, or low level players, it's that you can start to expect them to miss attacks. You really should always be expecting a hit to land if you don't do anything about it.

Also low level players love to air dodge all the time.

 

[BJN39]

Re-posting this here so I can find it easir when I get to adding it into the thread.

tl;dr Dthrow to UAir is true. Since 1.0.0 1.0.4, when its endlag was made not utter garbage.

Spoiler

If you are FRAME. PERFECT.

Thanks to KuroganeHammer for the calculator.

Experimental table time!

WEIGHT = Target weight. Non-specifics mostly. DK (122) works for 120, Jiggs (68) works for 70.

0% KB = No rage, target has 4% (Because of Dthrow multihits, so consider it as being used when the target was at 0%) KB numbers.*

0% ADV = Hit advantage off of Dthrow aat 0%.* at 0%, everyone takes 37F of hitstun. Dthrow has 18F of endlag. (37 - 18 = 19F) When you consider that all airdodges (bar Bayonetta) have 1F of vulnerable startup, this advantage is effectively 20F. Zelda needs a minimum 20F to land UAir after Dthrow.

As the damage raises, opponents receive slightly more hitstun. (Tiny amounts) It makes the window a maximum of 3-4F larger before people are too far (for no DI/bad DI) to hit.

* KH's calc currently does not consider gravity in the calculations. Despite this, most numbers should still be relatively accurate. I'll find some way to consider low vs high gravity w/ each weight if it makes a relevant difference.

MIN% = For Dthrow used at this percent, (no DI no Rage) the target receives one more frame of hitstun, which makes Dthrow > UAir 100% true (even vs Bayonetta)

MAX% = A data-based percent where no DI no Rage Dthrow > UAir will no longer work. For data from gameplay, these percents would raise a little, (~5% at most) but these are safe percents. Note: The KB number I used as a cap off for working %s is 108

0% RAGE CAP = When ZELDA has this much damage, people will fly too far from Dthrow for UAir to follow up at 0%. ...lol. Note that again these are calculated numbers, so in gameplay, they could be a few percent later, but relatively accurate and a useable reference.

I also want to calculate some of these things considering rage.

Also good DI basically neuters this true combo vs anyone that isn't Bowser/DK.

WEIGHT|0%:0% KB|0%:0% ADV|MIN%|MAX%|0% RAGE CAP
130|95.7035|19F|14%|96%|134%
120|95.74|19F|13%|92%|134%
115|95.7595|19F|13%|90%|133%
110|95.78|19F|12%|88%|133%
105|95.8015|19F|12%|86%|133%
100|95.824|19F|11%|84%|133%
95|95.8477|19F|11%|81%|133%
90|95.8726|19F|11%|79%|132%
85|95.8989|19F|10%|77%|132%
80|95.9267|19F|10%|75%|132%
75|95.956|19F|9%|73%|132%
70|95.9871|19F|9%|71%|131%
65|96.02|19F|8%|69%|131%

 

[Rickster]

Can you replace the Jab gif with the...special version?
Pls.

Anyway do we have any "Zelda Projects" going on right now? I mean stuff like the Finger Bang research.

 

[KlicKlac]

Can you replace the Jab gif with the...special version?
Pls.

Anyway do we have any "Zelda Projects" going on right now? I mean stuff like the Finger Bang research.

One thing I wanted labbed, was upthrow combos and what percentages they work. We should have a list for each character and what upthrow combos work.

For example, on Fox, you can do upthrow -> upsmash from 0-20%.

But it also seems like upthrow -> upair will work around 60%.

And I haven't tested it much, but even upthrow -> dair seems to maybe work at some percent.
And upthrow->nair probably works at some percentages.


So like, something like that for every fighter.

 

[BJN39]

Probably something similar to the finger bang research could be done by me in not-too-much-time on Uthrow. I'd just need to do the maths. (Thank you for the super calc!) my currentunderstanding is that anything w/Uthrow is surprisingly less guaranteed than we think.

Also Rickster I looked here yesterday and almost did that, but I think there's an issue with the GIF SBphiloz4 made, because it only appears to loop the GIF once, not infinitely. Then after that one playthrough it just sits awkwardly still.

 

[SBphiloz4]

Probably something similar to the finger bang research could be done by me in not-too-much-time on Uthrow. I'd just need to do the maths. (Thank you for the super calc!) my currentunderstanding is that anything w/Uthrow is surprisingly less guaranteed than we think.

Also Rickster I looked here yesterday and almost did that, but I think there's an issue with the GIF SBphiloz4 made, because it only appears to loop the GIF once, not infinitely. Then after that one playthrough it just sits awkwardly still.

leT me see if I can fix da GIF sis

EDIT:

It's a bit slower but oh well

 

[Rickster]

One thing I wanted labbed, was upthrow combos and what percentages they work. We should have a list for each character and what upthrow combos work.

For example, on Fox, you can do upthrow -> upsmash from 0-20%.

But it also seems like upthrow -> upair will work around 60%.

And I haven't tested it much, but even upthrow -> dair seems to maybe work at some percent.
And upthrow->nair probably works at some percentages.


So like, something like that for every fighter.

Probably something similar to the finger bang research could be done by me in not-too-much-time on Uthrow. I'd just need to do the maths. (Thank you for the super calc!) my currentunderstanding is that anything w/Uthrow is surprisingly less guaranteed than we think.

Also Rickster I looked here yesterday and almost did that, but I think there's an issue with the GIF SBphiloz4 made, because it only appears to loop the GIF once, not infinitely. Then after that one playthrough it just sits awkwardly still.

I'd be willing to help out with this if you need anyone.

Also I think evmaxy54 has some % ranges for Uthrow already in a spreadsheet somewhere. So we could start from there unless Maxy gorl deleTed it because tr4sh :^)

 

[evmaxy54]

My notes

Uthrow -> Usmash (26% combo)

Sheik: 1-7%
Fox: 0-20% (15-20% does 24% instead)
Falcon: 11-12%
Greninja: 6-17%

Uthrow -> Utilt (18%)

Sheik: 1-21%
Fox: 0-20%
Falcon: 11-24%
Greninja: 6-23%

Falco: 5-18%
Roy: can't remember =/ something like 6-19% or something


Uthrow -> Uair (26%)

Sheik: 50-66%
Fox: 46-67%
Falcon: 63-86%, 83-89% (the top %s for both ranges require DI, true combo at 87% can kill on FD with no DI after Uair)*
Greninja: 55-57%

Falco: 51-63%

D3: 78-93% (higher %s require DI)*
LM: 51-77%, 77-80% requires DJ*
Ganon: 70-74% (74% requires DI)*
Mewtwo: 39-53%, 54-61% requires DJ*
ZSS: 50-66%
Shulk: 62-71%*
MK: 46-59%, 60-67% requires DJ (higher %s require DI)*
Zelda: 47-50%*

Jiggly: N/A
Rosalina: N/A
R.O.B.: N/A

 

[BJN39]

Just started messing around a little on Kuro's calc for Uthrow

No doubt low% Uthrow > Utilt/Usmash combos are going to be VERY dependent on airdodge invincibility

edit: I will expand by quoting myself for anyone looking:

Spoiler: Visual Listing of Airdodges

Frame 2 Airdodges

Frame 3 Airdodges

Frame 4 Airdodges

*Special Cases*

Most airdodges are frame 3, and thus you get a 1F leeway to hit with UAir after Dthrow at 0%. A few characters allow Zelda 1 frame even more. (Only 6 characters) Finally, 18 characters will be extremely difficult to catch. (Unfortunately, several of these are difficult MUs for Zelda.)

A few select characters are "special cases" concerning airdodges and difficulty landing UAir, in that all of them have options that initiate invincibility or "dodges" faster than their airdodge invincibility:
- Bayonetta's airdodge "Bat Within" can "dodge" attacks starting frame 1, but she will take half damage for any attack landed before frame 5.
- Ryu has two options: Focus Attack, which has frame 1 armor versus a single hit, and Shoryuken, where simple usage has frame 3 invulnerability, and the super version, which has frame 1 invulnerability.
- Marth, Lucina, and Little Mac's aerial Up Specials all have frame 1 invulnerability.

some notes from just now:
On Bowser's weight, Uthrow has 25F of hitstun at 0%.

At these percents Bowser's weight receives +1F of hitstun
4% > 26F
9% > 27F
14% > 28F
19% > 29F
25% > 30F
30% > 31F

At 31F, Uthrow to NAir would be guaranteed when frame perfect (Uthrow will have a 12F hit advantage)

At 0% on Bowser's weight, the hit advantage is only +6F. But since Bowser's airdodge is only invincible by frame 4, then Usmash is guaranteed when frame-percent. Note that jump would be able to happen as soon as airdodge at that point, but my understnading is that Bowser's large frame cannot get far enough in 4 frames and Usmash would still work.

Fox receives 26F of hitstun at 0%. Technically Utilt is 100% guaranteed if you can manage the hit on frame 7. He's falls quite quickly but receives invincibilty from airdodge on frame 2. It should be guaranteed.

At these percents Fox's weight receives +1F of hitstun
5% > 27F
9% > 28F
13% > 29F
17% > 30F
21% > 31F

These numbers will appear very different from one another.

edit: LOL Sheik really does gain 1F of hitstun between 0% and 1%.

 

[evmaxy54]

Oh yea my notes are p outdated, so someone will need to redo the Uair combo & all combos with characters with weight changes yea

 

[BJN39]

Um,

Spoiler: Something regarding Uthrow combos

[1.1.6]|25F| 26F |27F| 28F |29F|30F| 31F |32F|33F|34F|35F|36F|37F|38F| 39F |40F
Bowser|0|4|9|14|19|25|30|35|40|46|51|56|62|67|72|77
CF|0|2|7|11|16|21|25|30|35|39|44|49|53|58|63|67
Roy|0|1|6|10|15|19|24|28|33|37|42|46|51|55|59|64
Frog|0|1|6|10|15|19|24|28|32|37|41|46|50|55|59|64
Falco|0|1|5|9|13|17|21|26|30|34|38|42|46|51|55|59
Shek|0|1|5|9|13|17|21|25|30|34|38|42|46|50|54|59
Fox|0|0|5|9|13|17|21|25|29|33|37|41|46|50|54|58

Horizontal Columns : Represented Character's weight stat for the calculations. Gravity NOT considered yet.
Vertical Columns : Number of frames of hitstun yielded at a certain percent.

Green ##F -> +7F advantage - Utilt "technically" guaranteed. (26F)
Yellow ##F -> +9F advantage - Usmash "technically" guaranteed. (28F)
Aqua ##F -> +12F advantage - j.NAir "technically" guaranteed. (31F)
Red ##F -> +20F advantage - j.UAir "technically" guaranteed. (39F)

Numbers do not consider KB the target receives, so while certain percents may become frame-guaranteed, they may fly too far for the move to be 'able' to work. IE j.NAIr hit 2 is technically frame 10, and won't work, Utilt reaches the vertical maximum in the arc frame 12-13, and won't work unless the target can be hit sooner by Zelda's arm hitboxes. (Which is usually how it works.)

I've started with the characters who appear the most in Maxy's data.

Knowing the cap offs distance/KB wise of each of the characters will allow us to have more definite windows as to when certain combos might work.

Also while certain frame numbers are denoted as the guaranteed point, remember that airdodges will add 1-3F more for Zelda to land any of these options, dependent on the target character. Please refer to KuroganeHammer's airdodge data to know exactly how much per character.