Data The Great Fairy Fountain II : Zelda Data & Research Repository

[Lord Renning]

I'm pretty much not surprised at this point that Zelda gets cheesed out of a potential cool combo by the opponent's invulnerability frames.

Well, at least hot stuff like Utilt back hit > footstool > jab lock DAir > Finger Bang/LK/etc all can happen.

and I WILL collecT clips of them

Also clearly we need a name for the aforementioned highlighted setup secretkpop

Like, a list of all of the hot followups Zelda can get after the DAir jab lock would be fun. (Since you apparently cannot tech sweet DAir after the jab lock, there's also that to consider!) I'll be brainstorming.

Call it the High Heel.

High Heel into Elevator.

High Heel into Finger Bang.

Or Heel Dig.

Heel Dig into Elevator.

Heel Dig into Finger Bang.

 

[BJN39]

So I just saw this concerning footstool setups:

Some snooping suggests that this work was done by someone associated with our favorite Zelda discord, so props to them for getting this started! I've decided to take a data look at this myself now as well.

I'll tackle them in order from the vid

KEY:
Zelda Jumpsquat -> 6F (for advantage equations, noted in green)
Hitstun number in pink

SHAD NAir > Footstool
Pre: Right off the bat this one feels a little less than airtight to me. They had the target Marth at 39% in the vid, but since NAir uses weighted KB, the victim's percent matters less than Zelda's own percent (AKA Rage) when considering if it works. That actually means that this combo might not work when Zelda has no rage, but then may work after she's accumulated some percent. Something I do like about this combo is that the opponent really doesn't want to airdodge or aerial unless they're going to be perfect, or they'll suffer their own bonus landing lag, thus whether it's truly airtight, you may be able to catch it when they try to DJ or normal land. Anyways, let's see...

From previously accumulated data, ( Lavani do you have the WKB formula on hand? I think I losT it...) the range of hitstun (With no rage) for Zelda's NAir should be 25F (Bowser) to 33F (Jiggs). "Full endlag" after SHAD NAir would be 21F-19F (Depends on how immediately you NAir after the AD. The easiest execution would be for the earliest use, so 21F endlag.)

25 - 21 - 6 = -2F
33 - 21 - 6 = +6F

So after jumpsquat we're seeing that heavyweights might be a no-go. (BUT, refer to the pre data paragraph! You can probably risk it for the biskit) But lighter weights may be catchable. I don't really think you could make a footstool in 6F or less from the position Zelda is in after the NAir landing, but it's worth looking into as far as consistency. I don't have who-has-what-hitstun atm, not until I recalculate WKB again.

Grounded Opponent, Sweet-spot DAir -> Footstool
Pre: I could say without a doubt that DAir sweet > footstool would be a thing, considering how much time we have to do other things like LKs or UAir, but what we would need are the windows that are optimal. There are likely followups from a footstool jablock that could be done for a kill earlier than a DAIr > UAir/LK window...well, at least elevator if you're feeling it. Obviously the catch with this combo is the opponent simply teching the groundbounce DAir and rip, but neat if they don't.

Dthrow > Footstool
Pre: I felt like I went over this before, and our conclusion was that Dthrow wasn't a viable footstool setup. There 'may' be a near-enough frame advantage. I think it doesn't work if the opponent knows it could happen, at which point I'm pretty sure it's possible for US to get footstooled lol. At 0%, (Or rather, 4% if you've read the Finger Bang thread) we get +19F off Dthrow...

19 - 6 = +13F

So every opponent starts with a decent timing advantage for Zelda even after jumpsquat is considered. I feel like this combo is still shady sounding, but I...might actually want to see more testing on this in-game. I think at low percent in a competitive battle, this 'would' be a really easy setup for a footstool combo, which could probably net more than the usual Dthrow combo at 0%. #Optimization.

Front hit Utilt > Footstool
Pre: Time for a data check on this. Obviously less useable than back utilt for footstool, but it's way easier to hit front Utilt. True knockdown with Utilt starts at 11-17% (no rage). Let's see how much hitstun one might need to catch Utilt front to footstool...

[32%] 36 + 7 - 29 - 6 = +8F
[39%] 38 + 7 - 29 - 6 = +10F
^ "Mario" Percent Simulation

So the question is if we can close the gap in the amount of time provided at a given time. Is the KB for Mario at 32 or 39 too far for us to cover the aerial distance for a footstool in 8 or 10 frames respectively? I don't think it'll work well, but it, like others, needs more in game testing to see how doable it is versus an opponent using an aerial or airdodge.

Obviously we get like, 9-11 more frames leeway for the same percents for the back hit of Utilt. It is undoubtedly a thing. I'm not even going to go over it atm.

--

I'll try to come back and edit this to analyze the other setups, but it's already taking a bit more time than I would want to blab about these first few. '^^ I'll say right now though that aerial endlag NAir > Footstool seems like a nope, and a quick landing NAir into footstool would be percent specific at best.

 

[KlicKlac]

I'll try to come back and edit this to analyze the other setups, but it's already taking a bit more time than I would want to blab about these first few. '^^ I'll say right now though that aerial endlag NAir > Footstool seems like a nope, and a quick landing NAir into footstool would be percent specific at best.

Great work BJN39. A nice read. Oh man, I've been trying to pull off some footstool jablocks but keep messing up because I didn't follow the opponents DI right. If you could pull off a string with a footstool jablock at a tournament, you'd already have won the match in heart lol.

 

[Lavani]

( Lavani do you have the WKB formula on hand? I think I losT it...)

(((((10/10)+((10*d)/20))*(200/(w+100))*1.4)+18)*(g/100))+b

d = Weight Dependent Set Knockback
w = Weight
g = Knockback Growth
b = Base Knockback

 

[BJN39]

So I actually booted up SSB4 to try the footstool > DAir



Holy hex I can't get the jab lock I'm totally terrible at this

How long/how much practice did it take for yew gurls that can get it to get it working?

 

[KlicKlac]

So I actually booted up SSB4 to try the footstool > DAir



Holy hex I can't get the jab lock I'm totally terrible at this

How long/how much practice did it take for yew gurls that can get it to get it working?

I've been trying for a while and still can't do this. I mess up trying to follow the opponent's DI. All the footage of footstool dair has been in practice. I'm still looking for footage of this in an actual match lol.

 

[Lord Renning]

I was practicing it the other day and got it 0 times. I can't get the FF dair to connect or lock because it's hard and I'm not good at it.

 

[Valamway]

I had to try for almost a full hour before I got it once.
But after that one time, it clicked and I can get it at least half the time now.
With more practice I could get it much more consistent, but I don't think it's worth it.

 

[Rickster]

Could be useful

 

[KlicKlac]

Could be useful

lol I've been doing that for months already. Once again everyone behind in any cool things Zelda can do. It's really funny when you do that to Megaman, and you can tell they have a slight brain freeze at how the bomb got stuck to them.

Also, it's kind of funny how Esam saw someone else's uploaded vid of this bomb teleport thing and then immediately made his own vid and named the technique himself.

 

[Rickster]

I blame the lack of Zelda main communication on the fact that our (small) community is split into two groups that hate each other

 

[Lord Renning]

We hate each other now?

 

[KlicKlac]

Yeah, maybe I came in too late, but I have no idea where this hate thing started from.

 

[BJN39]

We hate each other now?

Maybe hate is a strong word, but there has been clear animosity from both sides.

I admit that I shade the Zelda discord when I think they're being overly optimistic and lack hard data on claims, and I know for a fact that they've called this whole board rather horrible things behind our backs. Not that we don't call r00d names here, obviously


It's like we're all the Real Zeldas of Smash 4 or something

 

[KlicKlac]

I am requesting that chart of the percent every character dies to upair. I swear I've seen it before here. That was before upair got buffed, but it would still be useful as a reference.

 

[GodAtHand]

Haven't been on here in a while. Whats the best way to post an image?

 

[Rickster]

Haven't been on here in a while. Whats the best way to post an image?

Well normally you would just copy paste in or upload it, but SBs changed some sort of website thing and now images sometimes don't work

 

[GodAtHand]

https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...75_3974485626916802700_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9

Hopefully that worked. Made a quick thing with Zelda data for deciding what options are fast and or useful.

 

[BJN39]

https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...75_3974485626916802700_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9

Hopefully that worked. Made a quick thing with Zelda data for deciding what options are fast and or useful.

oml that only makes those skimpy Usmash hitframes look worse x_x

But this is pretty neat!

One thing I'd mention is that Zelda's jumpsquat is 6F, but that chart shows it as 4F.

 

[GodAtHand]

oml that only makes those skimpy Usmash hitframes look worse x_x

But this is pretty neat!

One thing I'd mention is that Zelda's jumpsquat is 6F, but that chart shows it as 4F.

eew. I thought all characters had the same jump squat frames. That's so lame.

 

[Rickster]

So I found out a little while ago (by accident) that Dtilt actually can clank/cancel some weaker projectiles before they hit us. I feel like looking into this could be really helpful, since it would give us a better option to avoid being camped out

The only ones I can confirm atm are
Clay Pigeons
Tink's boomerang
Mario Fireballs
Luigi Fireballs
Lol short list right

It's small but it's something. I really want to know if we can cancel stuff like Water Shurikens too since Greninja can literally throws them out all day against us

 

[Lord Renning]

Down Tilt for Your Protection.

 

[Rickster]

More Zelda footstool tech that probs won't ever happen in a real match

Grounded Footstool = Death? Some true kill setups that can kill Mewtwo from as early as 40 percent. pic.twitter.com/Q5r3nCiFl2

— Afro Monarch (@ZMPDeception) December 17, 2016

 

[evmaxy54]

More Zelda footstool tech that probs won't ever happen in a real match

Grounded Footstool = Death? Some true kill setups that can kill Mewtwo from as early as 40 percent. pic.twitter.com/Q5r3nCiFl2

— Afro Monarch (@ZMPDeception) December 17, 2016

It isn't viable, read the comments ;3

 

[KlicKlac]

More Zelda footstool tech that probs won't ever happen in a real match

Grounded Footstool = Death? Some true kill setups that can kill Mewtwo from as early as 40 percent. pic.twitter.com/Q5r3nCiFl2

— Afro Monarch (@ZMPDeception) December 17, 2016

I guess that might work one time on a mewtwo player, since no one's ever done it before lol

But that tech is really low on the list of things to practice.

 

[Rickster]

Remember way back when we were "investigating" the Phantom spike hitbox? Well...I'm pretty sure that weird hitbox has like 50000 frames of hitstun. I just did it to a Wario and they were unable to act out of it until they were pretty much touching the blast zone. It was like a slow-mo dair spike, lol.

At first I thought my opponents weren't reacting quick enough but I've had it happen a few times now and even seen it in some Zelda highlight videos on YT

Edit: To clarify, this isn't the semi-spike we've seen. They went straight downwards, but very slowly. It's really weird to see

1:08

 

[BJN39]

My best guess as to what happens is that the targets are getting hit by one of the windboxes on the move at the perfect time as getting hit by the attack, causing the super odd interaction. (Think Sheik's up B in Brawl when you hit with the reappear wind right after the explosion. Target would fall like a rock stuck in stun.)

It seems like it's only possible at mid-charge (?) so maybe the hitbox and windbox locations are just right to have that happen. Either way, it seems a little quirky, but I'd love it if it were something we could make consistent. (Like the most troll shield break punish?)

If it matters, this only started happening when they edited after a patch (1.0.8 I think? It's been a while) where they edited the hitboxes. Coincidence? I've done this a few times too. Though, not in the heat of a battle.

 

[Rickster]

My best guess as to what happens is that the targets are getting hit by one of the windboxes on the move at the perfect time as getting hit by the attack, causing the super odd interaction. (Think Sheik's up B in Brawl when you hit with the reappear wind right after the explosion. Target would fall like a rock stuck in stun.)

It seems like it's only possible at mid-charge (?) so maybe the hitbox and windbox locations are just right to have that happen. Either way, it seems a little quirky, but I'd love it if it were something we could make consistent. (Like the most troll shield break punish?)

If it matters, this only started happening when they edited after a patch (1.0.8 I think? It's been a while) where they edited the hitboxes. Coincidence? I've done this a few times too. Though, not in the heat of a battle.

I've had it happen on grounded opponents too, but rarely. When that happens, it looks like they do their "hit by a spike but not enough to launch" flinch animation, but while also sliding back. If they do go into tumble, they just get thrown on the ground.

And yeah, you're right that it never happened before they fixed the blindspot.

I'm glad others have noticed though. I feel like the only Zelda who spams the Phantom constantly lol

 

[Valamway]

I use Phantom and Dins about a thousand times more often than I should.
Honestly, it's holding me back as a player but I love the rewards that are potentially possible.
Even though overall the risk/reward ratio is garbage for those moves.

The Phantom semispike and that windy slowspike are both things I've done, and on purpose, and it always feels so good.

 

[Rickster]

I've been wondering lately...is there any extra frame advantage for landing with the front hits of Nair as opposed to the back hits? The switching of the hitboxes stands out from the other buffs since it wasn't just a raw framedata/hitbox buff.

Did they just decide later on that it made more sense for the front to do more damage? Or maybe the back did more damage at first because Dthrow puts the opponent behind Zelda? Or was it all part of their master plan to give Zelda banworthy combos off of falling Nair (assuming it does give more frame advantage).

Idk it always seemed like a weird change to me and I just want to know...why?

Edit: Looking at the patch history, the damage swap was in the same patch the landing lag reduction was, if that means anything.

Also, SmashWiki says that patch 1.1.1 "Neutral aerial's back hits now launch opponents toward its front hits, improving its damage racking potential." Was that actually a thing?

 

[BJN39]

Also, SmashWiki says that patch 1.1.1 "Neutral aerial's back hits now launch opponents toward its front hits, improving its damage racking potential." Was that actually a thing?

The wiki's notes got better iirc, but this is still rather unclear: what happened is that the hit priority was swapped from the back hitboxes to the front ones. It means that when both overlap with a target hurtbox, now the front is "chosen" to hit as opposed to the back. (This happened when they switched the damage, so it was no doubt to keep the higher damage hitbox the prioritized one.) you just as easily could've said that before "Neutral aerial's front hits now launch opponents toward its back hits."

The end result did make the change 'feel' rather different. I'd wager it has to do with the hit boxes' positions relative to her body's "pushing presence box" making it really push opponents toward the front.

As far as potential frame advantage differences between the two, 1% is a pretty minor amount, but that doesn't mean the call wasn't necessarily altered. I don't have the weighted KB to hitstun formulae on hand. Lavani originally had it when I'd asked a while ago, if he wouldn't mind helping out to figure this out for sure. (It also makes me slightly curious if +0.5% added in 1.1.5 had any difference on the hitstun either??)

 

[Rickster]

BAN ZELDA strikes again, and this time...she brought friends.

This channel looks to have some of the "new Zelda meta" stuff added in along with some cool/funny clips. Might be worth keeping an eye on.

 

[BJN39]

Zelda:BJr 100:0 tbh

I cannot fathom how she becomes immune to the explosion, (like, that's the weirdest interaction result) but I am glad that it's actually a real thing to intercept mecha after the first hit. I always felt like something like this should've been possible. Poor Bowser Jr. He's got discunctions akin to Zelda's.

Judging by the vid, is it a FF DAir to intercept? Or is it based on pressing Z?

 

[Rickster]

Zelda:BJr 100:0 tbh

I cannot fathom how she becomes immune to the explosion, (like, that's the weirdest interaction result) but I am glad that it's actually a real thing to intercept mecha after the first hit. I always felt like something like this should've been possible. Poor Bowser Jr. He's got discunctions akin to Zelda's.

Judging by the vid, is it a FF DAir to intercept? Or is it based on pressing Z?

Looks like they were just pressing Z (or grab or whatever your button is) to grab it as soon as possible. An aerial would probably work too but...Zelda landing lag :'D

 

[Rickster]

Phantom jank made it into a popular montage (1:37)

Edit: One of the top comments is mentioning how the Phantom has 8 damage stages (we know this), and that stage 6 is the semi spike. Is that actually true? If so that could be...interesting. It would also explain why it always happens with that Phantom charge.

If it's true that's hilarious that they'd put a random spike hitbox in it LOL

 

[BJN39]

Phantom jank made it into a popular montage (1:37)

Edit: One of the top comments is mentioning how the Phantom has 8 damage stages (we know this), and that stage 6 is the semi spike. Is that actually true? If so that could be...interesting. It would also explain why it always happens with that Phantom charge.

If it's true that's hilarious that they'd put a random spike hitbox in it LOL

Wait, with red sparks too? This exactly confirms my suspicion.

It's the wind box interrupting the actual hit for sure.

Red sparks appear when an attack is "expected" to KO. Windboxes have always been known to have weird interactions when in close prox to a hit. There were red sparks followed by the puny spike that should not necessarily be a forced KO. I've said it a thousand times but think Brawl sheik Up B.

The talk of 8 damage stages is new to me, but cool if true. (I figure then that stage 8 is full charge or something) It's interesting to see someone pointing it to a specific stage. My guess is that on this stage, the windboxes exact placement versus the Phantom's travel distance (and thus the attack hitbox placement in this charge stage) match just right to have this "hit by both hitbox and windbox" interaction.

Next what could be interesting is seeing a timing can be gotten down for pinpointing the spike "stage." If it takes...IDK, about 1 full second to charge, then, split that? No charge stage 1, full charge stage 8, so, split the time into 6ths, and...the 5th of those stages would be the spike stage? That would be...what, charge frames 50-60? With startup it would be about 1 second from the input methinks.

Edit: also if there really is 8 distinct attack stages, I'd be curious what modding could do then with that. Is each stage uniquely editable, or is each of the 3 attack phase just mapped as one variant.

 

[KlicKlac]

Phantom's 8 stages are discussed in my friend cayiika's vid he made recently. He goes over each of the 8 stages in detail.

And phantom charge "level 2" (or basically stage 6) has a semi-spike property apparently around the downward swing of the sword. The opponent gets stunned pretty hard after getting spiked, so it's almost always a kill if you land if offstage!

I made some gifs of phantom semi-spiking so you can get a clearer picture on how it works. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be easy to land as the charge takes too long.

 

[Rickster]

Phantom's 8 stages are discussed in my friend cayiika's vid he made recently. He goes over each of the 8 stages in detail.

And phantom charge "level 2" (or basically stage 6) has a semi-spike property apparently around the downward swing of the sword. The opponent gets stunned pretty hard after getting spiked, so it's almost always a kill if you land if offstage!

I made some gifs of phantom semi-spiking so you can get a clearer picture on how it works. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be easy to land as the charge takes too long.

Nice that we finally have some good raw footage of this. It's a shame Cayika isn't gonna make any more videos though. That was a good channel for hidden Zelda meta stuff

LOL that's hilarious that it just spikes like that. And the fall speed just makes it look rude. I may try and start using this intentionally instead of accidentally now

 

[BJN39]

it's worth mentioning that the target happens to be in the exact same position in every clip you GIF'ed, KlicKlac amd judging by the placement, I could definitely see one of the release windboxes (not the Phantom's body windbox) coming into play.

I think it's important to emphasize this is not a "special property" as it is more so just a glitch / unintended hitbox interaction. In a single word I'd say "quirk" fits better than "property," since it's a bit hard to consistently pin down or use.

 

[Lavani]

FWIW, hitstun like that happens when you have really high knockback on an autolink angle

old gif I had lying around of Greninja's jab3 edited to have ridiculously high knockback and a 365° angle:

That said, I don't remember Phantom having any autolinks, but maybe that one specific charge level just has some quirk to its data.